Sorry if I'm hurting anybody's head. I think the stuff in the comics was ignored...and we should as well. Since I'm a Dorkin/Dyer nerd, I get a little pissed when Kara gets hurt with Kryptonite.

Also pissed Michael Dorn didn't come back as Steel. They could've recruited Shaquelle O'Neil, so I should count my blessings.

I have to agree with Lantern, it was meh with a few good parts. We finally see Flash and it's for 5 seconds where he just gets batted away.

I don't like the male character designs. I haven't liked them since Superman and Batman Adventures. All the men have these grotesquely overdeveloped upper bodies which reaches the heights of stupidity with Amazo. It's a fricken' android. He doesn't need to have huge muscles. So stupid.

Half expected that Shayera was hiding out on Paradise Island, where a warrior woman would be welcomed and the outside world couldn't find her. But Dr. Fate's tower works too.

No JL next week. According to the promo the entire Toonami block will be replaced by Samurai Jack and Clone Wars.

Since when do they rerun the episodes Sunday at 5pm?

I forgot that Dorn did Steel. Man that would have been nice. I think my standards have lowered. I hate when that happens.

IIRC it was Aug. 1st after the third season premiere.

How did the series end? I never saw.
And is whatever happened to Super Girl in that series tie into the episode in this series? About the coma or whatever?
And is Tekara a cartoon creation of is she a DC creation?

I can't tell you how much I love this thread and seeing and the folks out there from DC land who like Batman and Superman TAS and this show.

From 1984 when my parents slowly bought me the entire Super Powers toy line for Christmas and birthdays, I've been a big fan.
Watching this show and seeing all y'all give your insight...
It's like a warm hug.
Around my heart.

Judd Winick, as in Judd from Real World San Francisco? Well I'll be damned.

Lex Luthor definitely carried this episode, as much as I liked seeing Captain Atom, and at the end, one Shayera.

So is Michael Rosenbaum just too busy these days to be the Flash? Because that's the only explanation I can think up.

Yup. He's actually done a lot of comic writing in recent years. Aside from an excellent run on Green Lantern, he is also currently writing Green Arrow and has just finished a run on Batman and is going to be doing another one soon.

I liked this episode. Maybe it was just the fact that it was the first real appearence of the Atom (who is one of my favorite heroes) as well as the fact Dr. Fate (whom I also like a lot) made a return. I also think the take on Amazo is sort of novel (I don't recall in the comics that he was supposed to be this ever-evolving being).

So is JLU on hiatus now? Anyone know when the rest of the episodes are going to air?

Same here, and this board is great for clearing up questions and little details. Thanks to all the posters who read decades worth of comics so those late to the party don't have to!



Oddly enough, I was thinking the very same thing during this episode. Amazo looks like it dwarfs everyone else in the League, who already strike me as huge due to the aforementioned body design. The newer, exaggerated designs for both the men and women after the older Batman series were initially a turn-off -- I think I actually stopped watching during the Superman/Batman adventures largely because of the visual change. Now it's fine by me and it makes for an intimidating look, but it is kinda goofy when it's unnecessary (the fact that Amazo just. keeps. coming. is intimidating enough. Be kinda funny if it were a wee, skinny thing, though).

Amazo's physique didn't bug me as much as Atom's. Some how I don't think Professor Palmer has that much time to spend in the gym, what with all the science and superheroing he does.

Lines of the night.

Amazo: Your bravery is admirable – but annoying.
I really liked RP's delivery of this. It was just dead on.

The Atom: I told you we'd beat him.
Lex: What do you mean, ‘we'?

Ah, Lex. You're an evil man but so much love so little time.

ETA: I can't believe I missed that fact that one John C. McGinley a.k.a Dr. Cox voiced The Atom.

Wait, why wouldn't Kryptonite affect Argosians? I thought that they were just colonists from Krypton, and thus biologically identical to your average Kryptonian. What exactly is the relationship between Argo and Krypton, anyway? Are the people that populate these two worlds seperate species that underwent convergent evolution, or are argosians ancient Kryptonian colonists that had enough time on the planet to develop some distinct differences from their Kryptonian "cousins", or is Argo simply just another place to live for Kryptonians, like how we can jump from continent to continent?

In brief: in the comic based on the cartoon, Argo was a planet near Krypton. When Krypton went boom, Argo was knocked out of its orbit. Kara's family spent years trying to find a way to counter the dipping tempatures. Eventually, the family went into deep sleep...but their sleeping pods got fucked up and they died. When Superman investigated, only Kara's pod remained stable. In the comic, Darkseid's enforcer (whose name escapes me) tries to stab Supergirl with a Kryptonite blade, but it does nothing to her since she's from Argo, not Krypton.

I apologize for making things complicated, since the comic seemed to be a loose extension of the cartoon. However, I do reccomend the issue, since "Last Daughter of Argo" fits in nicely with "Little Girl Lost," the Superman episode that introduced Kara.

And yeah...Judd kicked ass on GL. Then Ben Raab took it over, and it sucked. Ron Marz is finishing the title before it gets relaunched as a Hal Jordan book. While Marz did create Kyle in the first place, the story is basically all downer.

Back to the episode...I think that the biggest turnoff with JLU is that no newbies stand out. The comic characters have their own books to be developed in their own way. Here, they're dumped into a tight 22-minute space, and we're left to wonder stuff like, "Why in the hell is a cowboy like Vigillante on a freakin' satilete?!?"

This is why I feel cheated by not reading the comics. Is there a comprehensive site that can tell me who is and what not?

Thanks.

Well I blame CN for that. If I remember they were the ones who wanted self-contained 30 minute eps instead of 2-parters lasting an hour in which story and characters can be fleshed out and which JL was so good at last year.

Of course if you're a DC comic reader this is the kind of episode you geek out on and if you're not at least it gives you exposure to some characters on the periphery. I think this was actually the best episode of the season so far.

Good to see the Atom get some face time (though how a supposedly smart man like Luthor thinks a man who can shrink to atomic size and has a zillion degrees is a "lesser" hero is beyond me) as well as Kyle Raynor who no long looks like a clone of Hal Jordan but more his comic self (complete with spikey hair and Jim Lee costume). Since they're seperating Kyle from Hal (in the Superman series he bascially was Hal in all but name) perhaps this will open the door to a Hal Jordan appearance perhaps as the GL before John who has since retired.

I fond it ironic that many of the lesser heroes featured in the last two eps also got face time in the funeral scene in Identity Crisis #1, which sold about a zillion comics. Booster Gold and Elongated Man from last week. Fire, Captain Atom, Red Tornado, Rocket Red (sans Soviet battle suit), Dr.Fate and of course the more well-known JLers were all front and center in the splash pages of that comic. I know it was probably a coincidence but what they hey.

Speaking of Red Tornado, it was sad to see him blown up and because it was just a half-hour we didn't get to see any comment on the irony of Amazo, an android who has reached sentience casually destroying Red Tornado, an android who did the same. Amazo could have asked his questions to Reddy, since he could relate.
Wasn't surprised to see Hawkwoman though since she was due to pop up sometime but I am surprised how popular the character is considering that in the comics she's been in comic limbo (barring a great 3 issue guest stint in Hawkman) for years. Usually DC changes its comics to fit the cartoons as in John now being the GL of the JLA, the return of Kara/Supergirl, the current line-up of the Teen Titans etc. Seems Hawkwoman is the odd one out.

Am I the only bugged by the continual guest appearances by Dr.Fate in the JL? He's always been as JSA character to me - especially the Kent and Inza Nelson version which date back to the 1940s. And apparently other Golden Age JSA characters like Johnny Thunder and Wildcat will be seen later on. Why not just create a JSA spin-off with the old-timers and their young legacies (like Stargirl) imstead? Wouldn't that be a way for the Timm-verse to extend the franchise?

Yeah, Oded Fehr.

I also liked this episode. It was really good. And seeing Hawkgirl again was awesome. Though I also missed Michael Dorn as Steel. Would've been nice to have him back.

Kinda messy, as at the end of Starcrossed, WW was pretty pissed of at HG's betrayal of the league.

So next week gonna feature the a group called the Ultimen. Ultrmarine Corps maybe?

Oh, and from this weeks credits, Bizarro?

I really geeked out on this 'sode! So is that it for the Red Tornado? I freaked when Amazo sliced him in half and then blew him up by flying right through him.
So who voiced the Atom? I tried to watch the end credits but now the letters are so damn small and they're only up there for a second that I can't read who's who.

Why in the world did the Atom charge in and attack Amazo with his fists? His classic attack is to shrink down, fly up, and knock into them when he's super-dense.





Ooh, a chance for pedantry!

WW was rebooted after the Crisis so they could start retelling her story just as Byrne was doing for Supes. Like everything else Crisis did, her continuity was mucked up. (And, yes, I'm still bitter about the Legion...)

They fixed her own continuity for WW's reboot, but later some other problems started showing up. Golden Age WW was the secretary of the Justice Society of America (replaced post-Crisis by someone American Maid-ish: Miss America, maybe?). Fury, in Infinity Inc., was related to the original Golden Age WW (daughter IIRC). Wonder Girl, of Teen Titans (not in the tv show), was inspired by the Golden Age WW. Fury and Infinity Inc. were not popular; Teen Titans was. So they needed a fix.

Hence the Hippolyta time-traveling back to join the JSA -- although not as their secretary this time. Fury got a new origin, Miss American Maid or whoever got sidelined, and Wonder Girl was inspired by Hippolyta Wonder Woman.

Until she got retconned. And then killed. Because that's just how it goes for female characters.

John C. McGinley. He'll be back is another episode later this season.

Oh, and it'll be quite a few weeks before they show any new episodes: I believe the beginning of November is the planned time.

I'm a fan of John C. McGinley's from Scrubs so I was really glad to see him voice one of my favorite DC heroes, the Atom. That Gil Kane costume design is still a classic. Great stuff with Kyle Rayner and the GL Corps, Amazo, Lex Luthor, Supergirl, Steel, Dr. Fate and finally Hawkgirl! I hope we see her again this season.

Yeah, but I'm still stuck on Why.

I mean, they rebooted. The world could see what they were doing. What was the reasoning behind trying to make it all make sense?

So WW in the 40s did this. We're rebooting, and now she's this. She was the secretary of the JSA in the 40s. But now she's not. Were to comic book fans so insensed that this is what they wanted or what?

And Judd's writing of Kyle Rayner is what made me fall in love with the character. He's my comic book boyfriend.

What's happened to him, though? Is he out of the picture? (Kyle, not Judd).

And what was John doing at the beginning of the episode? Retiring? Is Hal Jordan still alive in the cartoon verse? And how can Jon been a GL when Kyle's a GL?

Kyle is still around though his comic won't be for long (one issue left and then it's the return of Hal Jordan). At the moment his life ain't going so great. He just returned from space to find his girlfriend (Jade) living with another guy in his apartment, the JL happy with his replacement John Stewart, and even more recently his mom's been killed by Major Force in a very awful manner. Also I've heard a rumor that Kyle may in fact be the one behind everything in Identity Crisis but I don't know if I believe that.

Regarding Hippolyta and WW, given the other huge leaps of logic it has taken to allow many of the original members of the JSA like Hawkman, Jay Garrick, Alan Scott and Wildcat to continue to be active today, a little bit of time traveling doesn't bother me that much. Of course I'm not really a huge WW fan so maybe that has something to do with it.

Well, Dr. Fate (granted, not the Kent and Inza version) was a member of the JL during the early Giffen years. And there've been a lot of those characters showing up in the cartoon, so it's not too weird.



I would love this! Unfortunately, I doubt it would work. Too many non-comics readers would be all "Justice Society? Who're they? I thought it was the Justice League."



'Cause John Byrne has the power of super-self-importance and hyper-nostalgia. The latter makes him think the old stories and continuities are the best and the former gives him the gumption to try and put it all right. But that's the currently in-continuity John Byrne, as can be seen in the new Doom Patrol and Demon series. The old continuity Byrne was very much in favor of reboots and didn't have the hyper-nostalgia power. That's why he rebooted Superman and stripped out things like Superboy (and thus the Legion) that he didn't like.



'Cause there are 3600 of 'em. (Or, at least, there are if they are following the classic version of the Corps.)

Apparently the JSA didn't exist in the cartoon continuity, since we didn't see any of them in the 'Savage Time' two-parter.



I keep seeing Byrne take a lot of criticism for the things he did, but he only did what the DC Editors at the time asked him to do.

They wanted to separate the present and future continuities to give the Legion it's own identity. Hence, Superboy had to go.

Of course when so many old school fans complained, the later editorial regimes and writers like Mark Waid and Grant Morrison gradually brought back old pre-crisis elements.

From what I understand, while the DC PTB made the decision to reboot Superman, it was John Byrne's decision as to the actual details, such as ditching Superboy. The whole point was to revamp Superman and the Legion figured into it hardly at all, they were just collateral damage.

Paul Levitz's interview in the Legion Companion implies this as well. He's asked when he learned that Superboy was being removed and his answer is "Probably whenever John decided to do it."

Levitz salvaged things a bit with the Pocket Universe and its Superboy, but then the Superman office got its knickers in a twist and eventually demanded even that tenuous connection be cut, resulting in the "Mordruverse" story in early v4. That's when things got really hairy and as a result we've been subject to constant revisions and reboots ever since. And let me tell you, I am none too happy about the upcoming reboot, especially once I read some of Waid's ideas.

Uh, off-topic rant over. Carry on.

Another cameo? Starman. I thought it was a one-time Titan, the Russkie known as Red Star (originally Starfire). But it was Prince Gayvn, the fourth person to bear the Starman label. Funny...he has zero JLA connections. He was co-created by Steve Ditko, had a run of issues in Adventure Comics, fought Mongul alongside Superman, and got killed in the Crisis. There was some stuff in James Robinson's Starman with Gayvn, but I'll stop here. Seriously...who do I gotta strangle to see Jack Knight?

"Justice League Unlimited: Watch out for Ambush Bug!" Seriously, who's next? Bloodwynd? Blue Jay? The flippin' Wonder Twins?!?

I would love to see the Wonder Twins reconceptualized and finally killed in a one-off episode. No resurrections, no miraculous escapes, no decoys. Dead. Just dead. Ah, Red Tornado...

I think someone realized that, while customers would buy comics for a reboot of Superman or Wonder Woman, sales would not justify spending lots of issues rebooting, say, Wonder Girl or Power Girl. Or Hawkman/Hawkgirl.

Yet, customers liked those characters, and DC didn't want to lose sales by not including them. So they slipped in the occasional retcon into comics whose sales could suppor it that fixed minor characters used elsewhere.

At least, that's my guess. Fortunately the JSA has become DC's continuity clearinghouse. Hawkman actually makes so much sense it's kind of disappointing they didn't write him into the Diniverse.


That reminds me of another head-scratcher: the Justice Guild. It was an obvious homage to the JSA, what with not-quite-Wildcat, not-quite-Black-Canary, not-quite-(Jay Garrick)-Flash, etc.

Yet now we have JSA characters popping up all over. If they wanted to do a JSA homage, why invent the Justice Guild instead of just using the JSA?

Lantern7 writes:


My cynical side suggests that, since James Robinson and Tony Harris have a small contractual interest in Jack, WB/CN may be holding off on using him to avoid royalty payments and using a Starman DC owns outright Black Vulcan-style*. That, or they just didn't feel like using Jack Knight.

*Dunno if you know this or not, but it's interesting nonetheless: starting in the early '80s, DC relaxed its stance on creator ownership somewhat, such that if characters were created past a certain date, the creators were obligated to tokenish royalty payments and "Created By" credit when those characters made appearances in any form of media.
This was the reason why Black Vulcan appeared in Super Friends instead of Black Lightning; Hanna-Barbera could thus avoid making payments to BL's creators. I could be wrong about this, as similar arrangements were put into place for Jack Kirby's DC characters, and Etrigan and the New Gods are all over the Timm shows, and Kirby has been credited when they've appeared.

Uh, could someone help me with this part, too?

So Kyle's run is ending. Why are things like this decided? Is his comic series not doing well? Did they run out of stories to tell?
And Hal Jordon, isn't he the one who became Phallax and went nutso and tried to kill everyone? Why is he back?

And as the local comic book store inexplicably didn't have the first two editions of Identity Crisis for sale, I don't want to come to the party late, so I won't come at all. But what's the quickest, simplist rundown of what's happened so far.

And what the prognosis for the rest? What's it going to accomplish. I remember Hush for Batman, and that seemed like a lot of hoopla for little payoff.

Avery writes:


As I understand it, they did want to use the JSA in "Justice For All", but Paul Levitz took issue with the gentle mockery of those characters in the script, and more-or-less vetoed their use. The Justice Guild was a hasty compromise.

Schroeder writes:


Heh. Me too! You'll probably dig this. ToyOtter.com is hosting a feature on the proposals for the unmade waves of Super Powers figures, with choices ranging from the cool (John Stewart, Deathstroke) to the cheesy (rocket packs for everyone!) to the inexplicably bizarre (Zan and Jayna? El Dorado?!).

Would that ANYONE could help with that ...

Hal Jordan became Parallax, and then the Spectre, for a minor correction.

Why end Kyle's reign? No idea, probably for the same reason Tora/Ice was killed off, or Jean Grey's death as Phoenix waaaay back in UXM #137 was retconned -- editorial decision presumably driven by the belief that it will make money.

Honestly, there are so many changes that are made regularly that I can't see rhyme or reason to most of them.

Why is Vanessa Kapetelis reduced to being the new Silver Swan, and likely to be forgotten again? She was a great supporting character in Perez' reboot of Wonder Woman, and personally, would have made a better Wonder Girl than Cassie, IMHO. She was almost Perez' answer to Kitty Pryde, a cute, spunky brunette of realistic proportions who was in awe over the whole superhero thing.

Sorry, got sidetracked. Seriously, all these changes come about because someone, somewhere thinks it's a good direction for the book(s). It could be due to a shiny new writer (a la Kevin Smith, Warren Ellis, etc), a new editor, fan pressure (unlikely, but possible, see the Spider Clone saga), or something similar.

Loved seeing HG, Fate (and hearing my beloved Oded Fehr!), and Inza again. That ep was actually pretty good, imho.


This? Would SO rock. Is there a petition somewhere?


Is it wrong to admit that I felt like someone punched me in the gut as he watched himself get torn in half? And then blowed up? Even worse: I had no idea who this guy was!

ITA about the ridiculous body types on JLU. What bugged me the most, seriously, was that Amazo has what looks like a crotch. WHY???

Mr. Excitment, I had just finished reading that page when I came on here last night to post.
How cool is that? I loved the Super Powers collection. It's up in the attic somewhere.
I'm still pissed they never made any other female characters, thought.

So, Fire was the green flame lady, right? And Ice was the ice man-style character?

I get so confused when JLU has these people on the screen that I wish they would simply put a big nametag on all of them. That way I can keep them straight.

The biggest thing I want to know is -- where the hell is Robin? I don't mean Dick or Tim or Jason or who ever. I simply want to be told where the hell Robin is. This is insane.

Schroeder , Identity Crisis runs so far like this:Sue Dibny, wife of Elongated Man, was brutally murdered in their home while her husband was on patrol. After the funeral, a few members of the JLA(Hawkman, Green Arrow, Atom, Zatanna,etc.) suspected that [SPOILER]Sue's murder was caused by Dr.Light. Flashbacks have shown that Dr.Light raped(or attempted ) Sue in the team's headquaters. To protect Sue from him, the Leaguers decided to alter his personality, changing him from a psychopath to a idiot with powers. The story also reveals that the Leaguers have erased the memories of supervillians who discovered the true identities of the heroes. Meanwhile, there is a possible serial killer who targets the loved ones of the heroes.

TeeVee.org has a Station Break today praising the current season's efforts so far.

I like the new format this season. It's like the old GI:Joe show from the 80's, which was my favorite cartoon as a kid. Each episode they would have a different mix of characters. There would be a combination of team members like Duke, Scarlett, Snake-Eyes, Quickkick, Roadblock and Dusty one day, and Flint, Lady Jaye, Shipwreck, Alpine and Bazooka another. Sometimes they would focus only one character, sometimes the ENTIRE lineup would be in the episode. I think taking this approach is a great way to show the whole DC universe.

Kaboom: Like Amazo, Red Tornado is an android, created by Thomas Oscar "T.O." Morrow. Reddy was built to inflitrate the JSA and sabotage them, but he ended up as a junior member, eventually joining the JLA. Somewhere along the line, it was revealed that he was infused with the power of the Torando Champion of the planet Rann...although that doesn't explain why the damn tornados were red in the episode.

Reddy has a relationship with a human woman and an adopted daughter. He was last a regular in Young Justice, playing the mentor to the likes of Robin, Superboy and Impulse. And that's why it hurt for me to see him call for Wonder Pig in one episode, and get torn apart in another.

Lantern, thank you for the explanation for Red Tornado. :-) (I LOVE coming here and learning from you awesome fellow posters) It's a shame how badly he's been treated in his two (just two, right?) appearances on JLU. Sooey, indeed.

The article that Ebongreen posted hits precisely what I personally miss the most: the focus on the core seven of the JL from the previous seasons. I admit to loving the guest stars for this season so far and to meeting so many of these other superheroes that are new to me, but I personally preferred the format of last season's JL.

When the JL appeared on Static Shock (or maybe it was just Batman), Static asked and Batman replied, "He's busy with the Titans" or something to that effect. Of course, that's assuming those shows are part of the continuity. Introducing Static and Teen Titans into the continuity really messes things up even more (although I'm glad they finally explained the other GL), so I'd like to think it was just a shameless plus. Originally the crossover was supposed to be with the Teen Titans, but for various reasons they did the JL instead.

All we need now is a Batman Beyond crossover, and it looks like in a future episode the league will meet a future version of the league called Justice League Unlimited. How awesome would it be if it's the same one from Batman Beyond? I miss me some Aquagirl.

Static Shock is supposed to be in continuity, but Teen Titans is not. Robin (Tim Drake) was shown in a Static episode. The altered designs make it impossible to use age as to define coninuity, since they used TNBA Robin design when he was shown in ROTJ. I find it hard to believe that Batman was an active member of the JL during (and after) that.

Who knows what will/won't be after the season finale, though. Static will be in that episode, along with Terry and presumably at least a few members of the JLU we saw in the BB episode. There's been speculation that Warhawk might be Hawkgirl's son.

Awesome indeed!

Does anyone know if the Batman Beyond crossover episode is the one with Ben Brower? I could have sworn that that's what I read somewhere.

EDIT - ooops! Spoiler tags!

I doubt we will. We saw Stargirl in the mass fight scene of Booster Gold's episode and she was carrying the staff. Since they're using that version of her character design, they pretty much also have to have Jack retired and raising his kid. So, unless they do a JLU episode about retired heroes trying to live a normal life...

God, I have no idea what y'all are talking about.
Terry from Batman Beyond can't fit in with JLU because he's in the future.
And Dr. Light?
Star Girl?
Red Tornado getting called a pig?
The info you guys have stored in your brains. Wow.
And not being told on JLU where the hell Robin is is a cheat. I mean, so what if they mentioned it on another show. As a fan, I have to go on a posting board to find this out and to have to watch another show to learn it? Wow.

Red wasn't called a piggy! I think it was a reference to the JLU ep This Little Piggy, when Wonder Woman gets turned into a piglet: Red is one of the heroes on pig-patrol who are searching for her. His one line: "sooey."

You might want to keep in mind that time travel can occur on this show. Don't you remember the League fighting in WWII, or Superman growing a beard and fighting a bunch of insects? Oh, and the League of the BB future called itself Justice League Unlimited as well.



He wasn't being called a pig, he called out to one. Maybe this isn't better, but there is a difference.



Just assume he's around until you hear otherwise. In any case, there's no way Batman would let Robin join the League, and he seems the type to keep League business separate from his solo activites. Actually, you aren't even focusing on the one person most people want to see: Nightwing. The rest of the Bat-family has been seen in BB, but Nightwing has been mentioned only a couple of times and is unaccounted for.

Which reminds me: is it just me, or did Huntress got a cameo on "Initiation"?? -- No Batgirl cameos either? I'm sure I saw Huntress but I haven't spot Ms. Gordon.

Yeah, and she also cameoed in the Booster Gold episode. I'm not sure if this version has any connection to Batman. This will probably be explained a little in season 4, she's going to be featured in an episode along with GA, the Question, and Black Canary. Oh, and she'll be voiced by Amy Acker (Fred from Angel for those of you who didn't watch the show)

No Batgirl in JL/U. Tim actually did (inexplicably) show up for a second in Hereafter: apparently he hasn't grown in the years since TNBA ended. That wasn't the only illogical cameo in the episode, so it hardly matters.

Well, she was at least mentioned, once in JL -- when the Kents tell Clark at Christmas that Kara and Barbara went skiing.

I'm with Schroeder, if they managed to work in a reference to Batgirl (no matter how obscure it was), they can get in a throwaway line on Robin. Or Nightwing.