Robot Chicken Joss Whedon sketch. You may have to turn up your volume.

OK -- so what I want to know comes from Alive -- an otherwise fantastic episode that seems to have escaped KrisAB's notice in favor of the turgid Ancient History -- (I'm with the Joker on the whole GL/Shayera romance -- "not on my show, they don't!")

Obsequious Expostion Flunky: "My lord, what of New Genesis? An invasion of Earth would be a direct violation of your pact with HighFather..."
Darkseid: "Where do you think I'm going NEXT?" -- complete with eye-gleam.

And...NOTHING! Never even addressed in the extras -- not even a line in Destroyer about it. Any ideas?

Darkseid says that after conquering Earth, he'll be going to fight Highfather and New Genesis anyway, so breaking the treaty isn't a concern. Since he was defeated in his attempt to conquer Earth, he never faced New Genesis.

I guess so -- but since none of the New Genetics showed up, even Orion, I assumed the opposite.

Of course, the point of the whole exchange is that they needed signficantly more time for a proper wrap-up; but Cartoon Network wasn't going to give it to them.

The battle of League v. Darkseid seemed to last more or less in real time, so there wasn't much time for them to mobilize.

As for wrap-up, the producers knew this was the last season well in advance (the whole final season was an unexpected bonus), so they could have done things differently had they wished. I do wish they had gone with Dini's original suggestion of how the Luthor/Darkseid confrontation would end, which would have made things a lot simpler.

If the episode doesn't have time to show characters like Dr. Fate and Huntress, they're not going to waste time on a character who's only had a minor impact on the JL show.

What was Dini's original suggestion for the Luthor/Darkseid confrontation?

The original conception was that Luthor would put the Anti-Life Equation inside Darkseid (or something like that), killing them both. Given that there's not going to be any follow-up to this series (in all likelihood), it's a clearer ending.

As opposed to Hawk, Dove, Creeper, Zatanna (as fun as This Little Piggy was, it was her only epi) or the "other" Steel? Kind of a pointless argument -- agree with you about Fate and Huntress, though; if Hawkman could get a cel, why not Helena?

Oh, I'm majorly annoyed that they got in but Huntress and Fate were left out. I can understand Zatanna, they used her for a cool effect and she dates back to the old Batman series where this all started.

How hard would it have been to put Huntress in the car with Question?

Sorta OT but y'all will understand. I got my six year old the WatchTower and a Javelin for Christmas.
I also found him Vixen in a single pack---he'd been wanting the three pack with her in it but he already had the other two figures.

back to topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnkKnvomyjU

Latest JL: New Frontier trailer; some good-looking action shots included.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Justice-L...w-Frontier/8477

Also, the specifics for the two different DVD versions, including covers (I'll probably be getting the two-disk one, especially because of its superior cover; the one-disk just has a modified piece of interior art from the comic).

TimeMonkey said:


I dunno, it just felt like a bit of a rushed ending, after all that build-up with the Legion. The uniting of the two sides against a common enemy was a nice (if overused, in comics) twist I guess...I was actually happy they managed to get Darkseid in there one last time (although I was fine with "Twilight" being the end of him too), but he didn't manage to do much more damage than usual. I was fine with all the Superman vs. Darkseid stuff because it was set up as a pillar of the franchise in S:TAS and it always worked for me any time they had Apokolips eps. The episode overall just left something to be desired. I wanted more character, less throwdowns. I understand that the target audience was primarily kids, but they managed to inject a lot more heart into all the other series finales. Batman had "Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero" if you like. Then the fairly good Harvey Dent/Twoface ep "Judgement", while no means a blowout of a finale and probably not intended as a closer, finished off the revamped version of B:TAS. Superman had the "Legacy" 2-parter, Justice League had the "Star-Crossed" 3-parter (which also works great as a franchise finale as well, since they weren't 100% sure they were coming back at the time), "Divided We Fall" and "Epilogue" were chock full of character moment goodness (and "Divided" still managed to have some awesome action sequences while fitting all that in, whereas "Epilogue" was mostly, appropriately, talk). The only other series that disappointed finale-wise was Batman Beyond with "Unmasked", but as with B:TAS's second film, you can consider "Return of the Joker" the ending or even the episode "Epilogue".

Colonel Green said:


It was a little...yeah...how convenient...but they did the whole reincarnation/fate thing, and religion and spirituality are full of contrived story devices--or forced interpretations by their followers that maybe worked better in the times they were written/passed down--to cover up potential plot holes, so it fit naturally. Sure, it was a little late in the game to establish such a definitive version of spirituality in the DC Universe (although then again, DC seems to casually toss in Greek gods and alien god-beings and The Hand and a much greater mish-mash of real world myths and fairy tales than in The Marvel Universe). I accepted it, despite liking the ambiguity of their origins in the first Hawkman episode a bit more, because this one was such a damn good Carter/Shayera/John/Vixen ep overall and I liked the Egyptian flavor.

Interesting that Shayera was reincarnated back on Thanagar, whereas John and Carter remained on Earth.

BaltimoreTom said:


Heh, I just hadn't gotten to my review of it yet ("Ancient History" comes before it and that's the last ep I posted about, aside from a bit of a jump ahead to complain about "Destroyer"). I also lost the little sticky note with the points I sometimse jot down while watching so I'll remember what to post about, but found it tonight.

"Alive!"
This all-villain ep was fantastic. I'm not sure whether I would have rather that really been the end of Lex & all those villains. It would've been ballsier, and very fitting for Lex to be done in by his own over-reaching ambition, getting way in over his shiny corporate-minded head going to space and trying to re-attain near-godhood and all. On the other hand, they killed off ton of other mainstays, so the body count was high enough I suppose. Juliet Landau as Tala was perfect in this one. Felt kinda bad for her at the end, Landau does swan song-style screams of pain unsettlingly well.

They never make reference to it in this or in "Destroyer", but Darkseid appears to have come back with a different suit, circuitry in it, a little bit Brainiac-looking. Was that the impression we were meant to have, that when Tala pulled his essence together again she incorporated a bit of the machine as well ?

More thoughts later.

That's what I took from it. I liked Destroyer, for much of the reason you disliked it. It was refreshing to finally see Superman let loose with his power, because it did feel like he was de-powered too many times to serve the story. If anything, the final fight between the two could have lasted longer. Best fight of the season has to go to Supes/Cap Marvel though, hands down.

Has anyone heard/read why Robin is in the JL: New Frontier?

I would pick the Superman/Darkseid fight in the finale over the Supes/Captain Marvel fight. Don't have a really good reason. It just seems more cool.

Its cool, but if you've seen the other sneak peeks its basically the same thing, just without the talking heads. And most of the footage comes from end. It still looks awesome though.


Well, he did have what amounted to a cameo appearance in the book, but it looks like his and Batman's roles have been extended. I can understand why they might do this, as they are some of the most recognizable characters DC has, but I really liked their smaller roles in the book.

Official New Frontier site

I find it interesting that in the promo materials, Superman has his classic red/yellow chest emblem. But in the movie itself, it's red/black. Personally, don't really care for the red/black at all.

The red and black crest was from the old Fleischer cartoons.


Just got the JLU season one DVD. I bought the Season two DVD a couple of months ago and am working my way back! I think taking the Justice League with it's original seven and the revamped Unlimited seasons as a whole, JL Season two and JLU season one(which was really two full seasons) were the best. I like JLU season two a lot but it was obviously after the Cadmus arc. My favorite is still "Great Brain Robbery". The best comedy episode of the series. I thought "Destroyer" was a better way to end the whole shebang than "Epilogue" was Not even for Terry being Bruce's son thing which I was surprised but was okay with. It's just even with Terry and the Jokerz appearance in the two-part time travel arc I had managed to separate the show with Batman Beyond at that point.

I would have hated for Epilouge to have been the series finale. I don't so much mind them revisiting Batman Beyond but to use a series finale of another show to do it without even giving the main characters a decent sendoff. I don't mind seeing the legacy of Batman and the Ace flashback covered Hawkgirl but that's only two of the seven main characters (with J'onn, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and John not even getting a mention) and that's just not good enough. We could have skipped Terry's confusing fantasies and shown the League as they are in the future: Clark, J'onn and Diana a bit older but still going strong, Warhawk could visit his parents, we could see Wally as the world's fastest man in a wheelchair.

I railed against Epilogue when it first came out because they only had so many shows left and they used (IMO wasted) one to end a series that had already been cancelled years before.

Movie might not come off after all:

Just saw Great Brain Robbery with the kids last night -- somehow, I had always missed this epi in other runs, even on Boomerang -- needless to say, it's now one of my favorites, if for nothing other than Bizarro's jaw-dropper. Not too many laugh-out-loud moments in this series that didn't involve a pig.

A question for more comic-savvy folks out here -- I'm an old fart, so I remeber Mr. Terrific as a JSA character, and even in a clunky 1960's sitcom. When did they change him into Paul Robeson in spandex? (Which, if you're gonna have a world where people like this exist, would be a strong possibility.)

The original Mister Terrific (Terry Sloane) was bumped off in the 1970s as the catalyst for a JLA/JSA crossover. About two decades later, in the mid-90s, they introduced the second Mister Terrific, Michael Holt, who is the one used by JLU. In the comics, Michael is the "Batman/strategist" of the current incarnation of the JSA, as well as the White King of the spy agency Checkmate.

I recognized Mr. Terrific's voice as the bald guy from The Practice


One of the unique things about the show is the Batman/ Wonder Woman pairing. In the comics WW was always romantically linked(Post-Crisis) with Superman or Aquaman. I read in a Bruce Timm interview that the end of Season 1's "Brave and the Bold" when Wonder Woman kissed Batman on the cheek after she saw how hard he worked to dig her out of being buried by debris the internet went nuts. Timm and Co. were surprised when fans began saying "What's going on between Batman and Wonder Woman?"! I wasn't watching the show at the time it orginally aired because I didn't have the Cartoon Network so I didn't know about it in the forums. When my cable company finally got it in early 2003 and I got caught up on the Justice League show "Brave and the Bold" which apparently started it all. I didn't think anything of it. I just saw it as Batman who was always the aloof and cold member showing emotion and concern for a teammate and colleague and Diana being touched by it. I only saw it as just a friendly affectionate peck on the cheek which is what Timm and Co. intended. Then they realized it was a more interesting dynamic to pair up the "Homecoming Queen" and the "Badboy" like in the Season 2 premiere "Twilight". I myself didn't realize there was something going on between Bats and Wondy until I saw S2's "Maid of Honor". I think I was focused was more obvious romance between GL and Hawkgirl. I think overall the pairing made the show interesting. I like at least that Wonder Woman was also flirty with Steve Trevor, Longshadow(Apache Chief) and Agent King Faraday considering Batman had other women too like Catwoman, Talia and Zatanna!

Assuming you mean Steve Harris (Eugene), that wasn't him; Mr. Terrific was voiced by Adam Beach (a Canadian First Nations actor, best known for two WWII dramas, Windtalkers and Flags Of Our Fathers).

The possibility of a Diana/Bruce relationship was hinted at in Joe Kelly's run on JLA in the late 90s/early 00s, but it was aborted by Kelly's departure from the title; it did result in one of my favourite issues of the second JLA volume, where Diana uses this MacGuffin tech to explore various possible futures if she and Bruce hooked up. Ultimately, she decided not to risk her friendship with him on it.

I saw that issue. It had just a picture of Wonder Woman and Batman's hands holding. Just a nice big iconic image of WW's bracelets and Batman's gauntlets.

As to who voiced Mister Terrific on JLU, it seems both you and I were both wrong, Colonel Green. It was Michael Beach. When I saw his photo on IMDB I was "Ohhh, that guy! I recognize him!" The reason I thought it might be Steve Harris was because he was also doing voices on the new "The Batman" show which is not produced by Timm and Co. but still a DC show.

There's a review of New Frontier up on AICN. Its a bit spoilish, and tells you what all gets cut.

My thoughts on that. I wasn't really surprised that what got cut did, but it still makes me sad. Especially losing Steel's bits. I guess they thought that would be too intense for little kids, but its still lame. And it really sucks that we lost the Challengers and Losers (I was so looking forward to an animated shot of whats-his-name jumping into that T-rex's mouth), and probably alot of the Suicide Squad as well. I was also hoping to see Wildcat's boxing match animated.
Still, I'm not really surprised that it call got cut. Really want to see it regardless.

On the subject of NF, I've always been a heretic, so I hope that the adapted storyline with all the fat cut and the focus trimmed to fewer characters will significantly improve on the bloated, meandering original.

Limbonaut said:


I'm trying to remember what other episodes there were with Justice League/Unlimited that were moreso comedy than straight-up action/drama. The Wonder-Pig/Batman sings/Circe ep...the League-as-kids/Morgan Le Fay ep (though that one kinda ended on a downer what with Bruce being the killjoy and Mordred's fate)...any others ? "Comfort and Joy" provided some genuine chuckles (and sniffles the first time around, and created the 'shipper-ness for GL/Hawkgirl that was solidified in the following Joker/Vegas eps).

More often than not, a lot of the comedy gold bits were moments that took place spread out throughout the series.

More than just this series though, for best comedic ep of the franchise, I wonder if I enjoyed anything as much as Batman Beyond's "The Eggbaby". Remembering all those Batman and Superman: Animated Series eps is hard...(I wouldn't mind being able to compare The Zeta Project and Static Shock as well, even if only so I can decide whether I like 'em for continuity).



I guess because I watched the whole thing over a year and Batman Beyond was what I saw before I dove into Justice League, the two felt very linked. You get the lead up to the League with Batman, Superman, then appearances by various eventual members (Flash, Aquaman, one of the Green Lanterns) in Superman's series. Then the first franchise appearance of the League in BB's "The Call".

Was okay with them using an episode of Justice League to give Batman Beyond a proper send-off because BB's Season 3 finale "Unmasked" sucked as a series-ender and, even using "Return of the Joker" as the last thing you watch of it, the whole thing still feels unfinished. The second set of time travel eps in Justice League nicely acknowledged the series and "Epilogue" rectified the problem of the cancellation.

Far as certain Leaguers not getting their due in the end--they were given another season and they still didn't provide. Personally I thought J'onn was criminally overlooked for spotlight time and they could've done much better by Diana. Batman, Superman, Flash, John & Shayera--all those characters' arcs and development were full and satisfying, IMO. I wanted more from some of the villains and one or two dropped plot threads, but getting 5 out of the 7 main characters down perfect means the series/franchise totally wins in my eyes.

Re: Diana/Bruce

I was initially kinda pissed that it had just been dropped off-screen, but when I read the interview/comment about it pretty much being ended by the argument on the rooftop in Gotham at the beginning of the Wonder-pig ep, it made more sense for the arc. They've done Batman romances already, it's fine to just send it off quietly for a character like that when there wouldn't be show-worthy melodrama to showcase the end of the relationship/flirtation anyway.

I don't so much mind that they used an episode to send off Batman Beyond, it's that they used what they thought was the finale to send off Batman Beyond that annoyed me. As a normal episode focusing on Batman with some Hawkgirl is fine but not when that's the end of your series. Sure they got anouther season and a great send off but it doesn't change that that was a bad move, IMO of course.

As far as comedy episodes go --The Greatest Story Never Told is second to the admitted Bewitched homage of This Little Piggy. (Does anyone else remember the classic Muppet Show episode with Lynda Carter? I'm assuming that was also the genesis for that epi, but Timm never mentions it on the DVD.)

You couldn't take even the menace in the episode seriously -- a portable black hole? -- but Tom Everett Scott as Booster Gold and Jeremy Piven's first appearance as Ralph made it hard not to laugh, anyway. And for us older obsessives, you even get a Composite Superman joke in there........

Ah, but I'm just the opposite. I like the fat and big influx of characters who in the long run are pretty ancillary to the main plot, as long as its done well, which I think Cooke does. Its the same that I tend to enjoy Stephen King novels the longer they are. But I can definetly understand people who aren't fans of that kind of writing.


I don't know about all that, but seeing as that was (I think) the last episode Dini wrote, I wouldn't be surprised if, on top of that, it was also an excuse to get Zatanna into a big role, which he has also done several times since he's become a comic writer for DC. Which isn't really surprising when you consider who his wife is.

The live action Justice League movie is now on indefinite hold due to the writers strike. Everyone gets cut loose before the pay-for-play clause kicks in on Tuesday.

Actually the last JLU episode Dini wrote was the one where Supergirl time-travels to the future and meets the Legion of Superheroes.

So my video store already had a copy of Justice League: New Frontier that comes out on Tuesday. It's freaking awesome. You guys are in for a real treat.

Just watched New Frontier, really liked it. I do wish it had been just a teensy bit longer, just to give it a little more fleshing out, but yea, if that wanted to just continue on in the style of Darwyn Cooke, that would be just fine with me.

Little nitpicks: Did not dig Sisto as Batman. Seemed to be trying to hard. On the other hand, Kyle Maclaughlin and Neil Patrick Harris were great. After seeing it, I am glad they cut out most of what they did, and really I only had one major issue with something that got cut, especially since it was one line of dialouge that said so much.

In the book, after Flash runs to Vegas and kisses Iris, he says something along the lines of "Now where's the tough guy who likes to threaten women with guns." Damn thats a kickass line, and I was very sorry to lose it.

But still, really like it overall, though Captian Cold sounded just like the Zoo Keeper to me.

I liked it; it sharpened the narrative action, which is pretty flabby in the original.

My one big complaint:

What the hell was with that scene where the other Amazon attacks Wonder Woman? Honestly, it's like they actively try to get the Amazons wrong, between that and JLU. I mean, among other things, it's Diana's mom who rules, not Diana herself.

They really should have kept the death of John Henry...it's a powerful scene, and if they had integrated as a vision during the news report, it would better explain J'onn's decision to go back to Mars. Maybe DC wouldn't let them use the n-word to keep it PG-13.

I need opinons please. My six year old has watched every episode of JLU with me from all the seasons. Also, the Galactic Guardians DVD run.

Is New Frontier more violent than those shows?

Yes, it's a lot bloodier (a guy shot in the head in silhouette, most notably).

Also the guy writing/drawing the story takes his own life at the beginning.

Thanks guys. I'll have to watch it first then to know when to FFwd.

I didn't get that. Who was he supposed to be?

Just some guy who got taken over psychically by the Centre. Can't remember if the why of his writing that was elaborated on in the book.

Anything to suggest it's the same one that Jarod and Miss Parker are from?

It's actually just more circumstantial evidence of something being wrong. The author is a children's writer.

He's actually a homage to Dr. Seuss, so imagine if Dr. Seuss is suddenly compelled to start writing horror stories.

Justice League: New Frontier

Loved the animation and the creepy children's book at the beginning. Creepiest moment goes to the possessed occultist speaking with the Center's voice upside down, teeth all bloodied up, while Batman, J'onn, and other detective stand and listen. Best heartbreak moment is a tie between Hal having to kill that Korean kid to save himself and Lois breaking down on-camera. The best sequence for me was the shuttle launch and explosion, from J'onn having to give up his chace to save Farraday (ah well, shuttle failed anyway) to everything tense that happened on board. I also love that the shuttle's explosion is what grounded and mortally wounded the pink-skinned Green Lantern who gave Hal the ring, how they very subtley implied that.

I was surprised at how well David Boreanaz did as Hal Jordan (a character I've never experienced outside of a brief cameo on Justice League, but who a lot of comic book readers seem to love). It's not that I think he's a bad actor (just bad at accents), I mean he had some good scenes on Buffy outside of just being a pretty face. He rocked as a villain on that series and steadily improved/grew more comfortable on Angel, most notably learning to be seriously funny once in a while. But since he's still fairly new to voice acting (I think he's only done a character or two in the Disney/Square Kingdom Hearts video game series), I went in with low expectations.

Lucy Lawless fit Wonder Woman. What was up with the blonde Amazon attacking her though ? Why randomly throw in an attempt at a takeover ? Or is that how they play rough but still friendly on Themyscara ? Was she meant to be Aresia, the human child who got shipwrecked and ended up becoming an Amazon in the JL cartoon series ?

Jeremy Sisto was great as Batman, but only because he fit the role fine and didn't mess it up. I didn't find anything to wow me in his performance, but nothing fell flat either. He just made a solid fit. I've liked what I've seen of his live action roles so far, from Billy Chenowith on Six Feet Under to May.

Superman felt like he was barely in the film, so I didn't really get a read on Kyle MacLachlan's performance. MacLachlan is excellent whether he's doing something serious like in Blue Velvet or hamming it up on Sex & The City and Desperate Housewives...or somewhere in between like his lead role on Twin Peaks. He's done some voice work and narration too, so I kinda had high hopes for him here.

Neil Patrick Harris was good as Barry Allen/Flash. Much less ADD-afflicted than Michael Rosenbaum's Wally West (a character I grew to love after the first couple seasons of JL), so it fit.

Heh, they cast Keith David as The Center, a no-brainer. They had him as the god-aspiring Destro on the JL series, so it makes sense to take it a step further and have him be near-god-like.

I know the villain wasn't the point of this, it was just something for the heroes to go up against, and to maybe parallel the `50s political climate of change in that this Lovecraftian beast is outdated and about to become extinct to make way for the new world order...but I would've loved a bit more fleshing out. I know there's not a whole lot of room to explore beyond "it's old, powerful, feels threatened by humans, and wants to keep/re-strengthen its stature in the food chain", but...I dunno. The ending, as big a set piece as it was, felt somewhat limp. Sure Hal had his moment, as did Flash, J'onn, and King Farraday, but...really, I'm not sure how to articulate exactly what I felt was missing. Anyone else a little let down by the end ?

J'onn was my favorite part of the film. Having only JL and JLU as my reference points, this is practically an extension of his character exploration in those, despite this being a completely separate project and continuity. I know some folks were bored with him on JL/JLU, but I found him to be so well-realized and, weirdly enough, more authentically human than a lot of the major human characters. He's also the most tragic and, to me, relatable (his world-view anyway--I don't think anyone can relate to his experiences on the same level, even a Holocaust survivor wouldn't quite).

Why is J'onn afraid of fire ? I don't remember this being a part of JL/JLU. In the Darwyn Cooke-verse, were his people killed by those same parasitic aliens, or is he the last one for another reason ? In the comic book, do you get glimpses of his life on Mars ? Is he just sitting around feeling sorry for himself ? In his own little watchtower observing the universe ? I missed having this explored in the shows as well, they never tell us what the heck he was up to for hundreds of years.

The last I heard - I don't know if the origin of the weakness gets changed from time to time, but I'm going from when he got his own series around the time of DC 1,000,000 - it's a racial thing with him. His entire species has an intensely deep seated fear of fire that has something to do with their conflict with the White Martians.

Damn Whitey. Always tryin' to keep the green man down.

Oh, there's another entire race of Martians ? Do they look exactly like J'onn's green Martians, only white ?

I edited my above post a bit with a new paragraph at the beginning and some more generic thoughts on J'onn.

White Martians tend to look a little bit different from Green Martians, having tails and more angular bodies for example. Aside from Miss Martian from the Teen Titans (who tries to pass herself off as a Green Martian because she's not like the others), they all tend to be rather evil and megalomaniacal too.

As for their racial fear of fire, that can be complicated. Sometimes it has to do with the telepathic plague that killed all the Green Martians except J'onn and his brother Malefic (though for some reason the White Martians are also afraid of it) because the plague caused them to burst into flames as they died. Other times they just died of the plague itself, and J'onn just fears fire psychosomatically because he had to make the funeral pyres for his whole race including his wife and daughter. More recently, it was establishled that all the Martians were afraid of fire because the Guardians of the Universe put that in their heads as a way of controlling them when the Martians were a much more evil and dangerous race. For a little while J'onn's own weakness was changed to "fires of hate" or "fire made with hateful intent" or something like that (which actually would have played out pretty well now that the Red Lanterns have been established), but most writers tend to ignore that with good reason.