WW gets so marginalized compared to Superman and Batman outside of DCAU. Granted, there was the series with Lynda Carter, but Bats and Supes had TV shows, movies, their own animated series, etc.

A few years ago, before anyone started working on the WW movie (back when Sandra Bullock [?!] was rumored for the part), I said "I'd like to see a Wonder Woman movie made." My father (I don't communicate with him anymore, but it has nothing to do with the following) said, "Wonder Woman isn't as appealing as Batman or Superman. Why would they make a movie about her?" Or something like that.

But with JL, they had ample opportunities to give her Themiscyran-related plots and character development. When they went there it worked, but they didn't go there enough.

It's too bad they had her banished so early in the series. It limited the number of plots they could use for her since she wasn't allowed to go home.

Having her steal the armor instead of winning it fair and square was another plot-limiting story. What they should've did was have her go back home, her mother finds out, and has the comic-based tournament so she can win it. But...

...a good twist on that is have her not win it, and have Artemis (from the comics) win it. Artemis goes back as the new WW, but is causing havoc instead of good. Diana goes back to the outside world to stop her (and something could happen here but I don't know what) and in the end regains the title of WW.

DCAU never stuck 100% with a comic plot -- they changed things all the time. I think this story would've worked better than the Aresia one.

I think the reason WW isn't used as much is that the character is too perfect. There's not much conflict or pathos in her origin (whereas Batman has the dead parents and Superman is the last surivor of his planet), she doesn't really use a secret identity, and her non-superhero relationships aren't very important in her life. (I know that earlier in her history she did have a secret identity and a romantic relationship, but those were dropped in the comics quite a while ago.) The DCAU actually improved on it all by introducing the banishment and estrangement from her mother, and by making her a bit of a fish out of water. That's why I always wonder what a WW movie would be about. (Which isn't to say I don't love the character, but she doesn't have the same emotional hooks.)

WW's origin on Themiscyra really hurt her character development since they'd have to make multiple trips there and that was forbidden. They touched on her homesickness a couple of times, comparing "Man's World" to Paradise Island. It would have taken a lot of finesse to flesh out her perspective without making her look like a militant lesbian and maybe that's why the writers backed off.

ETA: Actually, let's call it "isolationist". I do think it would be an interesting character angle for her but then I still believe it would risk making her unsympathetic. You'd want her to be an approachable hero. She doesn't wear all black like Batman. But there is an interior to her that could be explored. Like, how could she have made such a seemingly easy transition to the world outside, away from everything she's known and values?

I fear any WW movie made now would be pitched as 300 with women.

Prepare to be disappointed.

Honestly, DCAU Diana is a decent character on her own terms, but Timm and co. botched the character's translation from the comics in pretty much every conceivable regard, apart from picking the superior Perez version instead of the old "Diana Prince" identity. They got her origin all wrong, they never even explained a lot of her origin in any detail (like why she has superpowers at all, since the Gods seemingly never meant for her to do anything; originally they seemed to suggest the powers came from the costume, but there are clear instances where she's not wearing it but has powers), they completely changed her personality, and, apart from Circe (who I loved), they didn't get any of her villains right (Cheetah they changed so much that she's not even a Wonder Woman villain anymore), they didn't get Themyscira and the Amazons right, and then ignored them as a result.

Within the confines of "Secret Origins", what they should have done was had the Gods and the Amazons send a champion to join in the fight. Or just have her there already, and have Hawkgirl be the newcomer (it wouldn't make any difference at all to the Hawkgirl character).

As to a Wonder Woman movie, George Perez's first story arc, "Gods and Mortals" (conveniently in trade under that name; I'd highly recommend it to anyone looking to get into Diana's character) would be the natural choice; it's her post-Crisis origin, beginning with the origins of Themyscira, and taking the character into Patriarch's World on a mission to stop Ares from destroying all creation. For sequel material, Greg Rucka's "Eyes of the Gorgon" and "Land of the Dead" stories would also be fantastic, or Erik Luke's "God War" (this last one would look incredible on the screen: the Titans escape from Tartarus, overthrow the Greek Pantheon and harness their powers (leaving Diana powerless), and then go after the other Pantheons; it's an epic spanning from Olympus to the Hindu Pantheon to the final battle in Heaven itself, for the control of the Presence).

Heh, maybe she doesn't need to be wearing the full bracelet/tiara/midsection combo for it to all work. For all we know, she never took those panties off.

But yeah, they really do gloss over her origins. I was kinda happy they mentioned them at all, in the ep with Faust where Diana teams with Shayera to free Hades. The whole sculpted-out-of-clay thing comes to light, I think, with Hades implying (but possibly lying) that he had a hand in it. So they never follow up on that ?

Started watching the last DVD set tonight. Aw, it's almost over. Weirdly enough, even though "Epilogue" was the last thing I watched and it effectively ended the franchise, Season 5's premiere makes it easy to get back into the "present day" feel of things due to the events of "Divided We Fall" being fresh on everyone's minds still (I think they even make a reference that several months or a whole year has passed or something like that).

"I Am Legion"
Brilliant idea with the Lex/Brainiac separation anxiety. Guess Wally's molecular vibration trick didn't split 'em all that successfully. It probably should've reduced both to a puddle of deconstructed goo, but ah well, it's a sci-fi cartoon where they can't kill people off so graphically.

Nice that they included a cover for where most of Vandal Savage's tech and weaponry disappeared to circa WW2--the BlackHawks retrieved and hid it. Just good to see that the writers remembered that history had been permanently altered.

I wish I could better remember the last appearances of all those Legion villains that were shown. Some seemed like they shouldn't have been there. For some you can accept the usual off-screen explanations (the same ones you always had to fill in for nearly ever Joker episode of Batman: TAS), that Dr. Destiny/John Dee for example came out of his stupor and escaped, same as Grodd. What was the last ep Sinestro was in though ? Bizarro ? Cheetah was supposed to have died during that first JL villain team up, but they didn't commit to it.

Anyway, I just started watching "Shadow of the Hawk" and got a chuckle out of Batman telling Shayera about how many I-hate-Hawkgirl forums and webrings are out there.

If I remember correctly you can see her still alive at the end of that episode in a truck or something. I'd check but my DVD player is broken.




I think it would have been interesting to see how the other original members felt about Hawkman. Batman thinks he's nuts and GL's not a fan but what of the others. They could have usd Diana to find out the truth but instead they let him run around doing whatever he wants with Thanagarian technology and weaponry.

Did she ever use that lasso? I believe I've seen all episodes but the only episode I remember her using the lasso in was "The Balance," when she first discovered how it worked.

Once again, so many opportunities to use this character and develop her but many were wasted.

Diana used the lasso all the time, just not the "truth telling" aspects of it b/c it was brought in so late in the series, which is a shame.

I don't see what the big deal w/the Carter using the Thangarian technology and weaponry for the side of good is. Do they go around questioning every other super hero who uses technology or their powers in every day life for the greater good? Sure he seemed somewhat stalkerish, but he wasn't doing anybody any harm really. Hell he pitched in at the end during the Apokolips invasion pt 2 as we saw. Think of what hardships he must have been enduring using that technology as the Thangarians are still looked at in a very harsh light after that whole pesky invasion thing.

That's what I meant -- to make people tell the truth. I knew she constantly used her lasso other times. But I appreciate that with 21st century cartoon technology she was able to do more with it (twirling people around, yanking people, using it like a crane for heavy objects, etc.) than what Ms. Carter did with it on a 70s show with limited effects (tossed the lasso then walked closer to the captured party).

The big deal is that they don't know if he's sane or not. Sure he ended up a good guy but he could have just as easily turned out to be a crazy staker person.

I understand that, but my point is that could be said about any hero. Hell, Batman could be considered by some to be very much not sane. I'm just saying before the "league" decides to go all googling some guy who has come across some ancient(?) technology and use it for good, maybe they should look inside their own ranks.

They already have by that point. That's why they kicked out Huntress, because she wasn't able to control herself. When one of the League crosses the line the others pull him/her back. Cross it too often and they're out and possibly delt with if they go too far.

Wait, does this mean someone does think that Batman is sane?

Of course.

Batman is how Bruce Wayne keeps himself sane.

So the word on the internets is that casting on the JL movie is expected next week. Here's the story.

That's correct, but it was an animation error; the script called for her to vanish, with the implication being that she was killed. However, since the animators mistakenly included her at the end, she lived.

For a couple more seasons anyway.

She was one of the few to survive the big bang at the end.

Really? I thought she was one of the ones Frost offed. Oh well, I like her so it's good news. Too bad they didn't use the S1 villains more. I'd have loved to see more with Star Saphire, Cheetah and Copperhead.

I have a question for any comic readers: Who would you have liked to scene play something other then a background or one line part that didn't? In any of the Timmverse shows.

I'd go with Black Adam, Non Slutty Goth Cheerleader Mary Marvel, Prometheus, Detective Chimp, Guy Gardner, Ice, Mogo, the Knight and the Squire, Animal Man and probably his whole family, and Blue Beetle who I think they wanted to use but couldn't.

Course, I'm pretty sure most of them have turned up the JLU comic book.

If they'd have gotten Beetle, a JLU episode featuring the Giffen League would have been cool.

Yeah, they had Jeremy Piven as Elongated Man for like only one episode I think. I would have been nice to see a non-raped and killed Sue Dibney too!

Jeremy Piven voiced Elongated Man in at least two episodes. At least from what I've seen---six more eps to go.

This tacked-on final season is turning out to be worth it. "Chaos at the Earth's Core" was big dumb barbarian fun and finally brought back Malcolm McDowell as Metallo (Corey "Brainiac" Burton voiced him a few times when he wasn't as important to the plot and did a competent job, but it just wasn't the same). Also introduced an effectively freaky villain in Banshee, even though she only does one of the many things that Morgan Le Fay has in her arsenal.

"To Another Shore" was nice for its' J'onn content and I appreciated the Wonder Woman TV series reference with Diana's cheesy twirl transformation (add yet another item to her growing list of abilities). Otherwise the weakest ep so far. It seemed like there was stuff left unsaid about The Viking Prince and his role as a plot device in the story just seemed kinda weak.

"Flash & Substance" was big fun, had some decent little laughs, and finally gave a Batman/Flash pairing ep, but I have to wonder what the reason was for having Orion there. I mean him specifically, instead of another hero. And no ugly face under the helmet that finally came off ! Was a little disappointed after hearing you guys talk about the comic version.

Are they...even gonna bother resolving the whole quest-for-the-anti-life-equation thing ? Even if Darkseid is dead, you'd think someone else on Apokolips would try for it. While I'm not spoiled for whether or not Darkseid really did die during "Twilight", of course I realize there's a strong possibility he could be back toward the end of this season. It's either him or Vandal Savage, I've decided (though I was kinda okay with the extremely likeable future Savage in "Hereafter" being his final appearance and resolution, even though they never really dealt with the present day aggressive Savage in any permanent fashion on screen).

"Dead Reckoning" was enjoyable, only I'm not sure I get the motivation behind Grodd wanting to turn everyone gorilla. If he hates humanity so much, why give them the supposed gift of being just like him ? It wasn't much of a remake-the-world-in-his-image solution, since everyone seemed to still retain their personality and control.

That dude turning all the good Gorilla City gorilla fighters to gold with his touch (guessing he's called Midas or something like that), they're pretty much dead from that, huh ? Cold. But effective.

Tala seems to just wanna ally herself with power (first Faust, then Grodd, now Luthor), but switching from Cadmus to the Legion is a pretty huge leap. I wish we'd get more info on her character, her motivations. She's just a fairly well-powered magic-user hanger-on ?

Not much to say about that ep where General Eiling turns himself super (nice to see him and Amanda Waller again--yet another reason to save "Epilogue" for last if you ever show this franchise to a friend, 'cause she's not forgotten about in the final season). I wonder if that serum came about due to Vandal Savage's tampering during WW2. Vigilante was kinda annoying (again), as were all those children. Shining Knight was hot. Was nice to see Green Arrow again, I sometimes like him.

I'll love that episode for the sole reason of giving us Speedy.

I'm almost certain that Animal Man was off-limits for the Timm-verse, like Blue Beetle was. Not 100% certain, but I thought there was an interview where one of the producers mentioned him being off-limits.

Today TVshowsOnDVD.com posted the two different versions of box art for "New Frontier". I think there're things to like about the more "classic" art style-looking single disc release, but I love the 2-disc special edition's cover. Did Darwyn Cooke do either of those ? I don't know his style, aside from the sneak peak trailer on the Superman: Doomsday DVD.

Decisions decisions. I'll likely rent this. Hopefully rental stores will have both versions (unless whatever's on that second disc is really unecessary, then I suppose I won't care). Tempted to just go ahead and buy this, but I'll wait for when I finally have some sort of next generation DVD format (still waiting to see which one "wins"). Also, a complete boxed set of all these standalone Bruce Timm films will probably happen.

When I finish JL in a couple days, I'm gonna be going through withdrawls and wanting this movie real bad. Maybe I'll do some Batman re-watchings (animated). Not a complete marathon, but I've been in the mood to go back to my favorite episodes, as well as Mask Of The Phantasm. Possibly Sub-Zero too, but not Return Of The Joker because it's still too recent and sad, and not Mystery Of The Batwoman because it's too recent and mediocre.

Started playing Justice League: Heroes for the Playstation 2 the other night, only the first few minutes of the first level with Superman and Batman. I got it used for $5 at Blockbuster, so figured why not. Was promising to see that it was written by Dwayne McDuffie, but I was a little disappointed to find they had gone with different voice actors. I was all set to pretend this could be a lost episode of sorts from the series, if it turned out to be good and could possibly fit. Ah well, I'll just enjoy it as a game.

Were any of the Batman: Animated Series video games good, even as far back as the Super Nintendo ones that I remember ? (I just remember one of those being incredibly hard from the few levels I played) What about the one or two Superman: TAS games that have been put out ? Did Batman Beyond ever get a game ? Just wondering if any of 'em were quality and maybe fit into the story or expanded on anything.

Then of course there're the DCAU-based comics. I'm pretty sure I read that Paul Dini wrote a few, no ? Maybe some of the other show writers ? Were any of them in-continuity, or at least fun or well-written enough to recommend ? It doesn't even have to be complete series runs, even standalone issues I'm interested in. I vaguely recall someone mentioning on the ToonZone boards that Mr. Freeze's wife Nora was featured in a way that brough more closure to the character.

She's the Silver Banshee and she was in one of my favorite Superman comics by John Byrne. I liked seeing translate Mike Grell's Warlord in animation and they had Demos look and sound like Christopher Lee!

I read a review somewhere where the writer thought that the reason Orion was chosen was for the contrast of him, a big serious, brawler whose mother boxx can scarely contain his cosmic rage, with the lighter, quirky world of Keystone and how good the Flash is suited to defend it from its Rogues.



Ah well, a man can dream...


Well, Twitchy Warner had it taken down, but I hope they use Cooke's art. Wouldn't be the same without it.

I doubt I'll have the money to buy this, but I'm definetly going to rent it. I really enjoyed the books, and even though alot is undoubtedly going to be trimmed, it'll still be a must see.


The "So-and-so Adventures" comics, now published as Jonni DC comics, are stuff I'd recommend. Well, I havent read any of The Batman Strikes or Teen Titans Go! because I have no interest, but I read the JLU comics often, and I enjoy them. They're outside of DC's main continuity, but they expand on JLU's, like for instance last month's was a continuation of a certain crush established in the series finale. Its mainly kid oriented but its still enjoyable to adults, or at least to me anyway. They are also able to get characters that DC wouldn't let on the show like Beetle, Animal Man, and Firestorm.

There were also Batman Adventures and Superman Adventures, based on their respective Timm shows. I haven't read any of the Superman Adventures because as far as I know they aren't collected in trades which is a shame, and I've only read one Batman Adventures collection, Dangerous Dames and Demons, which is the only collection I've ever seen of those comics. I got lucky though because it included Mad Love, one of the best stories around.


Hee. That was awesome.

Use John and J'onn as much as possible. They've got a difficult mission coming up that you're forced to use them for. First time I played it I used Kyle instead (since he's exactly like the other two GLs) when given the option and got beat badly.

Patriot Act was one of my favorites becuase of all the minor-league characters being sprinkled through (the Seven Soldiers, the Newsboy Legion) and ultimately failing. I'm sure they tried to work the Guardian in as well, but probably would have taken too much of a shoehorn, although the Guardian was a cop in his real life, so maybe there was a subliminal I didn't get. Any excuse to get JK Simmons and CCH Pounder on my TV is a good one, also. And to whomever hated Vigilante upthread, just close your eyes, and imagine him beating the snot out of Sarah Michelle Gellar in the last season of Buffy. It works!

(Side thought -- with so many other heroes getting vague disciplinary threats - Supergirl, Wildcat, Booster Gold -- no one ever sat down Star Girl and told her to can it? "Great! Now I'm petty?" When WASN'T she?)

Now having seen the rest of the Cadre -- Fastball, Black Mass and Crowbar -- as afterthought villains in Clash -- "What do these guys want to do? Take over the world, or rob banks? I forget." -- I figured Silver Banshee was just Shrike, with a schtick change. Totally different character, huh? OK, whatever -- still kind of lame. And to our catchup recapper, you'll see more of Fastball at least in the final eps -- the guys seems to have a fondness for him.

As far as I can remember, Ralph had lines in only three eps -- The Greatest Story Never Told, Clash (he introduces CM to Supes) and the Mister Miracle spinoff. Definitely not enough use for Jeremy Piven, who was the perfect voice for him.

That moment alone made the episode worth it.

Finished a few days ago! Finally get a chance to post about it after [admittedly fun] company Xmas parties and Wii-in-friend's-basement Sundays got in the way (Rayman Raving Rabids 2, Guitar Hero, and Link's Crossbow Training with the Wii Zapper, all fun times).

The final season was somewhat worth the trip, overall, but the finale left a lot to be desired. "Epilogue" is definitely being left as the final episode in any future viewings or any time I recommend the franchise to a friend.

jedicaboose said:



Would that be Flash and Giganta ? That was cute. It almost seems like she shouldn't be evil, but due to the nature of her powers, being dimwitted, and letting herself be easily led around by powerful and convincing men, she ended up on the wrong side. Hey what's her real name ? Soon I'll stop being annoying with the trivia questions and start doing my DC homework by way of Wikipedia or DC's home pages/fan pages.

In retrospect, my only real issue with "Patriot Act" aside from the annoying children is that they began a character arc with JK Simmons' General Eiling that never got brought up again. There are a number of dangling plot threads, some no big deal, but a few maddeningly unexplained or not explored to a satisfactory length/depth. More on those later.

"Far From Home"

Matt Czuchry played Brainiac 5 and...no, that doesn't make this ep any better, really.

Man did this ep need some breathing room. I don't think any other JLU ep has been hurt so badly by time constraints. Might even be the most rushed episode of the entire Timmverse.

Kara and B5's attraction was inane, insipid, and uninspired, given there was nothing beyond "He's cute" (they both are/were) and almost telling her he was in love near the end.

It should've been poignant and fun, like the Superman: TAS ep of the 31st century characters was (at least they threw ina few more of those guys for cameos, including my favorite, Jason Priestly's alien-looking shapeshifter dude with the antennae). What a disappointment--and from Dini no less! I mean...geez, this is the fourth-last episode of the franchise and a send-off for one of the major recurring characters...frustration.

Far From Home is the only one of the thirteen episodes that I think is totally disposable. A big problem, as you say, is the Supergirl/Brainiac thing, which is a prime example of "because it was like that in the comics!" storytelling. But the biggest problem is the episode spinning it that Supergirl has always felt alone and isolated on Earth. Now, it supplies some okay reasoning (her first appearance in Little Girl Lost set her up as the last survivor of a doomed world, and then had her as a sunny, angst-free teen), but it is totally, totally inconsistent with all of her previous appearances on the show. She decides to stay in a distant century without saying goodbye to her teammates, to Ma and Pa, to Barbara, to Clark? No, that just doesn't work, at all.

Now, it was meant as a lead-in to a LoSH show, but the network went with the current Legion cartoon instead; at least, that's what I understand.

I just write off Kara's decision as being influenced by what she was told. If history says she never goes back then she never goes back. If she doesn't die then it must be because she decided to stay.

That was it. It was a small thing, but I still didn't want to spoil it.

CBR has New Frontier pictures up.

Colonel Green said:



I was too distracted by the badness of the episode to really take note of it while I was watching, but I appreciate the significance of the two surviving "races" of the solar system that contained Krypton and Argos coming together like that. One of Clark's family (sort of) and a descendant of the original Brainiac...who still exists in the 31st century...might be some interesting background info on Brainiac 5 and how his kind came to be...how the original feels about his/its' offspring.

More movie news:

That's a big Bruce Wayne.

In this article they pin Gale's face to Lynda Carter's body.

I hope she looks better than that in real life, because the sight of the above makes me want to hurl.

She's tall with dark hair, so that's a plus. Who knows what her acting is like though. BTW, if you image google her there are nude pictures.

Her face is too flat to me. But the bright side is that they opted with an unknown as opposed to using the overrated Jessica Biel. We'll see how this turns out.



I'll pass.

Sketch of J'Onn from Darwyn Cooke. Set me back $50 for what amounted to a quick head shot, but I think it was worth it.

Piven as Elongated Man...I think it's best he only had three episodes, thus limited all the "Let's hug it out, bitch" jokes we could've made.

I saw better photos of her (fully clothed, thank you) and she looks better from the front. It's just that I hope they can pull together a good WW! She better be a Lynda Carter and not a Cathy Lee Crosby!

And a 6'5'' Bruce Wayne? If he's gonna be that tall then Superman better be taller.

I hope this movie's good and not a box office joke. With it coming out in 2010 they should have enough time to pull something good together.

Funny that you of all people would bring that up, L7...

EM's biggest deal in the series was probably in ...Never Told, the Rosencrantz/Guildenstern treatment on Booster Gold, which features Green Lantern congratulating Ralph for the way he "hugged out" Mordru -- but unless I'm mistaken, Entourage hadn't appeared yet, which means an in-joke like that wouldn't be possible, right?

That was actually meant as a warning, not a suggestion.

They reran the Robot Chicken episode on Sunday where at the end Joss Whedon is playing with the little alien cutout and pretending to attack things and somebody comes in and says "This is why they threw you off Wonder Woman."

Heh, I haven't seen that ep of Robot Chicken, but it's doubtful it was intended in a mean-spirited way, seeing as Seth Green worked for/with Joss on Buffy and they respect the hell out of eachother. Aw, now I'm wishing all over again that we could've seen Whedon's take on Wonder Woman. The project'll probably never happen now, especially if Justice League bombs.

Lantern7, cool (and kinda funny) headshot of J'onn's true form. I wonder if Cooke gets many request for that character.

"Ancient History"
It all feels like a cross between the alien influence upon Egypt in Stargate (the film) and the reincarnation-fueled, pre-destined paths of the two main hero/villain pairs in the two Mummy films. I love it. We got to see some downtime in the heroes' lives, domesticated John (likeable John), more Vixen, more quality Hawkgirl screentime.

They got away with a lot in this ep, what with the open-eyed deaths, by poisoning no less, one on-screen suicide by the same method, cracking an arm, Vixen getting tossed around and crushed like crazy...nuts.

Good for John, not wanting to be a slave to the apparent timeline (though yikes, I want Batman Beyond to happen and to count in the overall franchise...at least Timm confirms that it will, whether through John and Mari splitting or her dying eventually, in the very last extra/interview on the DVD set). Sucks for Sheyera, for the time being, but good for the writers for not being predictable and taking the gift-wrapped conclusion route for that particular 'shipper arc (I wish I could say the same for the series finale...oh that's right, I'm choosing to ignore "Destroyer" in favor of "Epilogue" as the actual finale).

You didn't like Destroyer? Only problem I had with it was that there was too much Superman/Darkseid, especially the talking they should have just shut up and fought and used the extra screen time to show the last few major characters that they left out doing something.

On "Ancient History", while I know that the Egyptian reincarnation aspect is a major part of the Hawks' backstory, having John also be there just came across as way too weird for me.