Precisely. Didn't Tim or Paul admitted they just wanted to add alot of characters because they thought them cool?

I agree, and really did Supes or Bats need anymore development? It may took JL 2 season to develop characters which is great considering the 1st season was about getting the "cinks" out.

JLU didn't develop a thing because they had too many characters to deal with! Flash, Jonn, and Wondy was shortchanged. The new characters we saw were hardly flesh-out beyond their names and powers. Lets see we know The Questions picks through people trash and something about boy bands, Vixen a model and date John, and Green Arrow, well he...geez I can't even remember. The only ones to still get development was John and Shayera and that was from JL.

I'm sorry but JLU was created to eliminated the hour eps and have things nice and tidy at the end. I'm not saying JLU was bad because it had some good eps but it just different and a drop in good storytelling, character development, and dialouge.

In JLU Flash finally got an episode that focussed on him and his city and we got to see what happened when he cut loose and what tricks he could do with his speed, which was great. Aside from J'onn I thought everyone continued to be fleshed out in JLU.

DCU geography drives me crazy. The fact that Keystone City is in Kansas and not, you know, the Keystone State (a.k.a. Pennsylvania) really bugs. And Opal City is simultaneously a coastal town settled by Puritans and a frontier town with cowboys, indians, and old-timey saloons in its past. And Happy Harbor, Rhode Island, appears to be ringed with mountains.

Some day I'll learn to stop stressing over this. Some day.

It's interesting to read all these comments about the writing and character development (or lack thereof).
I watched, and still do, all the episodes with my five year old son. I never had any of that come into my head. I get to watch it through his eyes and he just has a ball.
The questions get to be too much sometimes. I can't count the times I've had to go to wikipedia and look up people for him.

Not necessarily rape victims, but women killed by men. Some probably were raped as well, but being killed by men was the main factor.

No kidding, especially with Gotham being the only one that's ever developed any real character. Metropolis is as bland as Superman.

I always feel as DC adaptations are somewhat hamstrung on characterization as most incarnations of the heroes were fairly two-dimensional and there is a vacuum there thast is hard to build upon. the obvious exception being Bats and his rouges gallery.

One early season character detail I loved was Flash being reluctant about revealing his secret identity and Bats cut-the-shit responce "Clark Kent! Wally West! Bruce Wayne!" so fitting with his paranioa and deductive skills.

Which is funny because seasons later when Lex was in Flash's body and tried to discover Flash's identity, he was all "I have no clue who this is."

So Wally, no one knows...and no one cares.

It did make the point that unless you're famous no one is going to recognize you (like Spidey in SM2) but I suspect that if Lex hadn't been obsessing over Brainiac he easily could have hacked into Central City's records and matched Wally's face. Of course if John Stewart could walk around without a mask and still live a fairly quiet public life I'm sure that Flash would have been OK too. Of the original seven it seemed like only Superman and Batman absolutely needed to maintain a secret ID: Supes would go nuts if he couldn't walk around like a normal person and Batman would lose a lot of his psychological edge if people knew he was Bruce Wayne, millionaire playboy.

Plus if people knew Bruce was Batman it would only be a matter of time before Alfred, Dick, Tim and Barbra were killed by his villains to get to him. Not to mention the danger to himself.

Hee. Yeah, it's easier to be intimidated by a shadowy, possibly superhuman and psychotic man than by a millionaire playboy.

hehehe.

There was a funny throwaway bit where Bats comments that the funding for the Watchtower is hidden in a line item of the Wayne Enterprises budget.

Genetic Research: $1.2 billion
Medical Technology Division: $2 billion
Transportation Division: $750 million
Giant Space Station for Housing Superheroes: $1.5 billion
Aerospace Division: $2 billion
Building Technology Division: $3 billion
- 200 million barrels of gasoline: $1.4 billion
- 1 ton of nitroglycerin: $5 million
Chemical Division: $500 million
Defense Division (no weapons): $800 million

Having your very own trillion dollar multi-national corporation? Priceless.

I wonder how Batman hid the second bigger tower and all the little stations around it?

I think that in the original '40s comics they were all just very generic cities, with lots of whiz-bang city-of-tomorrow stuff going on. It's only been in the hands of more contemporary writers that Gotham has developed such a strong character. (I would argue that the Starman writers did a pretty good job by Opal City, in far less time).


I was just rereading The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay, and there's a great bit at the beginning where the two main characters are trying to create their new comic book character. They throw around lots of different powers and identities, and Clay realizes that instead of focusing on the "how" of the way the hero fights crime, they really needed to figure out the "why" of it. Batman was the perfect example in the book, of a character whose origin gives him a driving motive to do what he does. For almost all of the other characters of the '40s, they writers came up with some super power gimmick (a blind man who can see in the dark, a guy who invents a pill that gives super strength for an hour) and had the guy just randomly decide to use those newfound powers to fight crime. There were a few exceptions during that time period, but it wasn't really until Marvel in the '60s that writers started putting the character and his/her motivations before the particular powers.

Notwithstanding the fact that most of the classic golden-age and silver-age DC characters were pretty two-dimensional, I think that writers starting in the '60s and '70s really made major strides in developing those characters. (Green Arrow's sidekick turning into a junky and then going through withdrawal was far more hard core than anything that ever happened to the X-Men during the same period). Nowadays, I would stack the DC characters up against any Marvel characters in terms of how well they are developed and how interested I am in what happens to them.

How funny, LTG, I'm reading Kavalier and Clay right now. Last night I stopped just before the scene you describe.

Topic? I think your point about Batman's motivation is right on, and it is why I think Batman is one of the best superheroes, ever. I always felt he stood out in this JL, too, not only because he is (in my opinion) inherently more interesting, but because of the characterization in B:TAS. They tried in JL to do the same with others, to varying degrees of success. I think they transformed Hawkgirl from a third tier filler superhero into an awesome one, but their attempts to make Superman "edgy" with all the stuff about Lex and Cadmus were not as successful, partly because I think Superman, at heart, is a boy scout. I find it hard to buy a dark and twisty boy scout. Although I do think the Justice Lord Superman, who becomes a benevolent dictator (and cf. The Dark Knight Returns), was well done in terms of showing how someone with all but unlimited power and a desire to improve the world could become a bad thing.

the less said about DC comics from the 50's and 60's, the better.

I agree.

There's a SuperFriends episode floating about YouTube with she and Hawkman helping Aquaman. She seemed too sweet and saccharine for my taste, and was just as useless as the Aquaman of that time. I'm sure SF Hawkgirl would be right at home baking cookies with Siren from "Legends."

All this talk about JL vs. JLU...I was hoping the changes between the two shows wouldn't be so noticeable. Guess I'll find out and be able to compare and contrast pretty soon.

"The Savage Time"
Great touch having Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon shown as members of Batman's Resistance in the Regime reality. (made up of orphans, another nice nod to Batman:TAS). I miss Batman and Superman's non-League lives, especially that of their alter egos and supporting cast moreso than their solo missions. Feels like we really should've seen Lois by now, but Season 1 only gives non-costumed time to GL & Diana's personal lives.

"Twilight"
Season 2's premiere was insane and perfect. I was disappointed that Season 1 featured neither Darkseid nor Brainiac (even though the latter is kinda played out by this point and we know he's still gonna be around in the far future due to that ep where the future League prevents him from killing Smallville teen Clark). They were some of the strongest aspects of S:TAS. Darkseid is kinda just Ra's Al Gul on a larger scale, ambitions-wise, but his conflict with Superman and Michael Ironside make him worth re-visiting.

"Tabula Rasa"
I really liked Robert Picardo's performance as Amazo--the name of the project/design more than his actual name in this incarnation, seems like. He/it is never called anything other than "the android". I like that the writers defied expectations with the outcome. Most viewers were probably expecting the android to have a Pinocchio moment after copying Jonn's powers of telepathy or, more likely, suffer one of those heroic and bittersweet deaths that short-lived sympathetic robots often end with, especially in North American cartoons and genre shows. But I liked that it got all superior and above-'em-all instead and left us wondering whether it'd come back as a threat or as help (or at all--I'm guessing they touch on the character again).

A natural team-up for Brainiac, both near-unstoppable machines.

"Only a Dream"
That was nicely creepy in parts and more than a little dark. John Dee actually succeeded in killing his wife by way of severely traumatic nightmares in which it's implied he's cutting her up repeatedly while in his Skeletor-looking visage. Chilling. I loved this 2-parter 'cause it's the more character-insightful, sort of cerebral storytelling that's been missing from a lot of JL so far. No surprise, with an ep where Batman is heavily involved and saved all their asses.

When J'onn was going into all their minds to save 'em and they couldn't get into Hawkgirl's and it wasn't explained why, just that "There's a barrier around it." Intentional foreshadowing of her betrayal ? Yeah, unfortunately spoiled on that point from one of the Season 1 DVD extras. Bruce Timm spilled the beans. A bit surprised, since they're usually pretty good at staying season-specific when having discussions in the commentaries and interviews.

In "Twilight" Part 2's commentary, Timm talks about how he and the other creators really wanted to up the ante with Season 2. It shows. Year 2 is excellent so far.

Next up: "Myster of the Batwoman". Rented it for 99 cents, apparently fits best when viewed before the "Maid of Honor" 2-parter.

Hawkgirl's race is almost completely immune to telepathy. I assume Dr Destiny was able to infiltrate because he came in on the dream wavelength instead of the normal telepathic one.

Can't wait for you to get to JLU Kris_AB. Good stuff.

I just loaned my JLU season one DVDs to my eight-year-old cousin for his car trip to Ottawa, and he said he loved them. Another one ensared in the name of animation.

On the JL/JLU debate, that's not even close for me; JLU wins by a country mile.

Justice League suffered, first and foremost, from a serious pacing issue; the decision to make every episode (except for one) a two-parter resulted in almost every story suffering from some degree of pacing problems, even the really good ones. It also disallowed the kind of neat small stories that make the other DCAU shows so good. The switch to 30 minutes, with the option to do multi-parters when necessary, was a major improvement. The stories on JLU generally had better pacing, and were much more diverse; instead of almost all big epics, we got little character pieces, pure farce, journeys to little-seen parts of the DC Universe, and spotlights for numerous lesser-known characters.

Almost all of the really interesting character stuff happened in JLU, albeit building off of stuff set up earlier; the entire Cadmus storyline is a great study of Superman, building off both "A Better World" and his own series' aborted stories; they finally really get Wonder Woman right (although they'd also done that in a lot of JL season two); Hawkgirl's story post-Starcrossed is great (although I think she was let back into the League's executive committee way too easily); the Flash gets pretty much all of his best moments, including the two great spotlight shows in the final season. The Martian Manhunter, perhaps, was downgraded, but I was honestly never that interested in him, and the small story he had in the final season was probably his most enjoyable story in the whole show.

All the new characters added an incredible variety and depth to the show, and relate to one of my favourite parts of JLU: selecting a group of characters to tell a specific story, rather than always bringing the same team (minus one or two members on occasion). We got about a half-dozen really memorable Leaguers, and many other enjoyable cameos.

I completely agree, Colonel Green.

Colonel Green said:


Kinda sorry to hear that, as I think he and Diana are the strongest "new" main characters on the team/in the franchise (this version of GL and Hawgirl being the others not previously introduced). He gets a lot of the good drama and character-building moments, and not just the fish-out-of-water/learning-to-live-with-humans shmaltz either. I think the voice actor's doing a great job too. But I warmed to him more in Season 2, while Wonder Woman was my fave newbie in Season 1. Hawgirl's really growing on me too, but I'm more a fan of hers through her teammate/relationship interactions with John than as an individual character. A whole lot of this J'onn love and warming-up-to-Hawkgirl happened in "Comfort & Joy" and the one or two arcs just before it.

I've heard that Flash was the most popular guy in the series, is that true? He's an awesome character and Michael Rosenbaum scores some serious cool points for selling it (I guilty pleasured my way through Season 1 to 4 of Smallville when I should've been watching these cartoons instead). I had no doubt, since I enjoyed him in his Superman:TAS intro.

"Maid of Honor"
I like how these 2-parters often begin with only two or three members and then bring in more for the usually more action-heavy second half. This starting out with Batman & Diana, of course I liked it very much.

I did like John's thing with wanting to let the astronauts die in order to blow up the International Space Station due to Vandal Savage's gun and the Kasnians that had invaded it. Sometimes his militarisms are annoying and remind me what a bore the guy can be (swear I've seen his exact character "type" played out dozens of times in other fiction very similarly), but I enjoyed that moment of grim, arguably cold, practicality.

I don't normally pick on this stuff in a cartoon, but there was some seriously questionable science in this one--Flash out floating in space for that long ? All it would do is make him cold and have to hold his breath ? Chalk it up to his superhero status ? Diana plugging her ears with the Princess' diamonds to withstand the sonic waves of General Vox's voice ? Not only did it look ridiculous...

Yay, brief origin story of Vandal Savage, hope they show more of his historical influences. I wish they'd do more with Diana's past as well, though she wouldn't have nearly as many experiences compared to Savage's 25,000 years.

Um...yeah. Nothing is made of the fact that Princess Audrey's father apparently got blown up inside the Kasnian palace.

Back to Season 1's finale "The Savage Time" for a sec, I forgot to mention that Steve Trevor did absolutely nothing for the show. I guess his inclusion was supposed to be a fun wink-n-nod to the fans, but the only worthwhile bit was Diana visiting him at the end (this is similar to what happens in Marvel's Ultimate Avengers movie with Captain America, though I realize this series did it first). This flash animation Wonder Woman parody was the only time I'd ever seen Steve Trevor prior and I liked that version better.

There's Aquaman and other superhero song parodies too.

Of the new characters, probably, although I'm not sure he ever unseated Batman.

The post-Crisis Wonder Woman (whom she is based on) is only as old as she looks; she was brought to life in the late 20th century. This seems to be the case in the DCAU as well, if we go by the brief flashbacks in Aresia.

Maid of Honor is my favourite episode of the second season; it's a cool James Bond-inspired story.

When Wonder Woman was in the museam in Paradise Lost she comments on one of the pieces, calling the artist by name and saying she always thought her work was museam quality.

Diana was sculpted before Hades was imprisoned and was likely awakened soon after that.

And Flash made a comment in "A Knight of Shadows" that Diana knew about the sculpture in Harv's mansion because she (paraphrasing) "may have been around to model the real thing."

I'm assuming Diana's a few thousand years old. She could've been so even when Aresia came around. And we know DCAU doesn't go by the comic storyline verbatim.

Count me in on the thinking that Diana has been around for a long, long while, but just never ventured outside of Paradise Island. I'm also guessing that being made out of clay and a mythological background she just has a slow x 10 aging process. Either that or being made out of clay she just smoothes out the wrinkles and whatnot that show up in her skin.

It was Charlie Schlatter who voiced Flash in Superman:TAS, but I do agree with you 'bout Rosenbaum's awesomeness. Wouldn't trade him for anything. He's also neat as Deadshot and did a pretty good job with Kid Flash in his Teen Titans episode.

Oh, it sounded like the same guy in my head. I'll have to go back and re-watch some of the Superman: TAS episodes (or just do an entire franchise marathon in a year or so now that I've almost got it all on DVD), since a number of them are important to JL happenings.

Hawgirl often seems to just hover without flapping her wings. Gargoyles got it right animating human-sized creatures with wings (though they were only really able to glide moreso than fly like birds, which the Thanagarians are seen doing like crazy throughout "Starcrossed" to great effect). So it's a little jarring and makes the animators look lazy for this series, even though they totally aren't, seeing as they rock on other aspects. It just looks funny seeing someone who probably isn't supposed to be able to hover like Superman, GL, Diana, and J'onn, floating along beside them. This happens even when they're close to the ground in a city, so you can't fanwank it away that she's sustained by updrafting wind currents.

"Hearts and Minds"
Here we go, a GL-focused story I actually liked. The end came a bit quick and the explanations were kinda hazy, but it was entertaining and a decent character study for John. It had Keith David (HBO animated Spawn, Goliath from Gargoyles, etc) playing Despero, so that rocked. Some useless GLs were killed off (though I liked the look of that human-type one with the teeth sticking out), while they retained the fun Kilowog (Dennis Haysbert from 24, mmm yeah) and finally mentioned Kyle Raynor (sort of explained his not being around too), who showed up at Superman's funeral in "Hereafter".

The Pitar's solution felt very Ferngully what with making trees out of all the villains or in Despero's case, trapping him in one (like Hexus in that film). Actually its' vengeance seemed a little merciless, since weren't Despero's followers brainwashed into working for him ? So it just killed a whole lot of potentially innocent zombies to end his invasions (and some aliens were shown being touched by Despero's white light and converted too, so I wonder if the Pitar tree'd them up too). But that's kinda awesome, since the good guys shouldn't always win so "cleanly".

"A Better World"
I'm a sucker for any excuse to show old/new/alternate costumes in superhero/sci-fi stories. Shame some of them couldn't be adopted by the League in "our" dimension. Superman's black, white, and red really helps tone down his inherent cheese-factor. John's is sexier.

Yes, finally--Lois! Two Loises. Not illusions either that Clark's having nightmares about frying.

That's...really freaky how Justice Lords Superman lobotomizes villains. Actually, kinda okay with him doing that to some of 'em (Doomsday, The Joker, Ivy, and of the others who never learned their lessons or were so beyond help or redemption that it's a worse crime to leave them capable of doing more harm to the average joe). They just kinda threw Doomsday in there as a plot device, yeah ? I'm okay with that since I have no connection to the comics, but do they ever bring him back and explain what his deal was, his origin ?

Had to replay that scene in the Batcave between Justice Lords & regular Batman. Nice.

What was with the special focus and reverant music surrounding Superman picking up the U.S. flag ? I'm guessing this was a 9/11 reflection ? Or simply a reminder of what the country's values are supposed to be, ideally, and relating that to the extremes of the Lords' reality ?

I finished Season 2 last night (excellence, and that last disc and all the episodes on it are gold). More thoughts to come.

All I can say Kris_AB is just keep watching........

Like all Amazons, she's immortal and eternally young; she'll live to see the last star extinguished.

Hearts and Minds is a fun episode, although the episode's conclusion is kind of weird, since it seems that Despero's power source is sentient, good, and more powerful than him, so it's hard to see how any of this was allowed to happen in the first place.

The last episodes of this season includes the Joker's final appearance (aside from a previously released DTV film) in Wild Cards, which was hilarious.

Thanks for the Wonder Woman song animation. Very cute.
I liked Steve Trevor. I'll admit he wasn't essential to the plot but it was a nice shout out to the TV show I grew up with. As was Diana spinning in place to turn into WW in the episode with the Viking Prince. (I think it was that one.)

Colonel Green said:


Not necessarily though...? How far into the future do you get a glimpse of the Earth in the entire franchise? If not for Vandal Savage being stopped in "Hereafter", it looks like even the Amazons would've been killed if future-Vandal's claims that he was the last living human in that roach-infested alternate timeline could be believed. They're not invulnerable anyway, they just seem to not age (past maturity) and are maybe unable to contract disease as well ?



That also occurred to me, so some assumptions had to be made in my head to make it all work. The Pitar didn't act until it came in contact with J'onn, whose telepathic nature may've had something to do with enabling it. Or maybe J'onn's Martian physiology, or maybe both those aspects of him. Maybe when Despero came in contact with it, either the Pitar decided to allow him to use it, or Depero forced the merger, and it couldn't do shit until another creature with exceptional mental power came in contact. I dunno, it sorta works if you assume all that. Something in the comics, maybe, to shed some light ?

"Eclipsed"
Didn't add anything special to the JL mythos, but it was a fun showcase of Flash and there were some good lines and sight gags (making fun of Diana's costume should happen often). Snake race? Meh. They had a nice dark backstory though, what with the self-sacrifice and all. The tune they all hummed and/or whistled was nice and spooky.

"The Terror Beyond"
This ep made me like Grundy more. He's sort of just a villainous version of The Hulk sometimes, at least as portrayed in this cartoon, but he's stupidly endearing occasionally.

Was glad to see Fate again. I don't really know why, but I liked his Superman intro/appearance. How old is he ?

How old is Aquaman and how long do Atlanteans generally live ? Seeing as some of them might be descended from Poseiden and other Greek gods (who seem to play a big part in the DC Universe), I figure they're more long-lived than regular humans.

And Aquaman's name is Arthur ?

Finally a real name for Hawkgirl -- Shayera Hol. Liking it.

"Hearts and Minds" was this show's take on misplaced faith, religion being forced on the unaccepting/uninterested, and outright brainwashing. So I guess it was only fair, or perhaps necessary if Timm had any devout on his staff, to balance things out with a more faith-positive story. Or at least establish that souls for sure exist in the DCAU.

A bit surprised over how broken up Hawkgirl was over Grundy's death. Umm...why?

What's the significance of "Solomon Grundy, born on a Monday" ? Mondays generally being considered crap, so, born on a bad day ?

It's a riddle turned nursery rhyme:



I'm kinda partial to Loeb's version in Long Halloween, which expands it abit.





I love this episode. Its the Justice League verses C'thulu and the Old Ones! With voicework by Rob Zombie! Pretty awesome. Sure, they add an "I" in front of his name, but that still the same ol' Devourer of worlds! I know a Shoggoth when I see one, and that was definetly one attacking the cruise ship.



I think he earned her respect by fighting till the very end to help people who are usually his enemies. I liked it, and it gets a nice callback in the JLU episode "Wake the Dead".


Arthur Curry.


My favorite JL episode, hands down. Wild Cards comes in second.

Isn't he half-human, hence why he doesn't have an "exotic" Atlantean name?



Ha. I realize that the costume's supposed to represent the red, white and blue, but I wish it would've had more of her Greek/Amazonian heritage involved in it. SPOILER TO KRIS_AB: The garb she wore to Superman's funeral in "Hereafter" would've been a nice regular costume.

Even her Justice Lord counterpart's costume seemed more reasonable. I hated the haircut though---so flat and aging on her. I wondered why she didn't have the lasso and tiara in that dimension---did Queen Mother get mad at that dimension's league going rogue and decide she wasn't worthy of keeping them?

Maybe she lost them because the Gods deamed her unworthy of their gifts? When she started going all crazy they may have stripped her of her powers only to be repowered by Ares.


A Better World isn't one of my favorites but I like how they give us just enough information for it to work while leaving the rest open for speculation.

Hi everyone! So nice to see a forum here for "Justice League". I just finished watching the JL/JLU series and I'm hooked. My favorite character hands down is Flash (the fact that I am a major Michael Rosenbaum fan has nothing to do with it....really. ;) ). Wonder why the Flash was absent in pretty much the entire 1st half of season 1 JLU?



Word. I loved the Amazon costume; I've never really understood why "the gods" would make her costume representative of the United States of America any way. If SHE had chosen those colors herself after living here a while, I could understand.

In a commentary on one of the DVD's the producers stated that they actually had wanted to give WonderWoman, Superman and Batman more of a modern look but DC comics wouldn't allow it. They were able to "tweak" some of the less popular character's costumes.

Let me restate something....actually Flash & Batman are my two favorite characters. I've always had a thing for Batman but after watching JL/JLU, I've found an apprectiation for the Flash. He is the sweetest of all the JL memebers and I also LOVE his Flash Van!







WORD!

Yeah, I didn't like the ending either. So Luthor's weapon permanently removed their powers? Were they sent back to their own dimension? What's to stop them from coming back? They definitely left too many open ended questions, but at least it help set up the awesome Cadmus arc.

Anyone interested in seeing a preview for the new Superman: Doomsday movie can do so here. Lois looks like a teeny bopper.

No kidding. And she looks like his baby sister because.....?

In the comics, his Atlantean name (post-first-Crisis) is Orin.


They're immortal, but not invulnerable; they can be killed; Diana died once, and spent some time hanging out on Olympus as the Goddess of Truth.

On the subject of Diana's costume, there have been differing answers given for this over the year in the comics; the post-Crisis (and, as far as we know, current) origin is that post-WWII, Steve Trevor's mother Diana Trevor's plane crashed on Themiscyra, and she stumbled ashore, got mixed up in a fight with some demons trying to escape Hades, and was slain. The Amazons mistook the flag emblem on her uniform for a personal coat-of-arms, and so they made her funeral garb look like that; when Queen Hippolyta gave birth a few decades later, she was named Diana in honour of the deceased outsider, and so her outfit was modelled on her namesake's "coat-of-arms".

This doesn't really mesh with aspects of the cartoon (one of my major annoyances with this show's version of Wonder Woman was their never really providing a coherent backstory for her), so, alternatively, the resemblance is unintentional (red, blue, and stars aren't exclusively American, after all).

I've been reading this thread starting from the beginning recently. It starts in December 2003 with you guys waiting for "Starcrossed" to finally air and anticipating/dreading what Justice League Unlimited might turn out to be. Is there a different thread or an archive of sorts that collects all the posts before that ?

jedicaboose said, re: "The Terror Beyond" :


I liked it a lot too, I mean it showcased Hawkgirl when I was really getting to love her character and it had Aquaman and Fate in it, who I really like as well. I've never actually read an H.P. Lovecraft story, but it seems like I've read and watched a whole lotta fiction that feature his creations or are at least heavily inspired by them. I have no problem with magic and mysticism in my superhero stories and almost wish there were more of them. A lot of times the sci-fi threats come off as more formulaic or I can guess the solution in more cases than when there're supernatural villains involved. For whatever reason though, I'm more open to all this in the DC universe, whereas in Marvel comics and cartoons I'm more comfortable with a purely sci-fi slant (even when it verges on magic, like with the Phoenix and such). Not sure why that is.

Thanks for the full Grundy poem, especially like Loeb's version. Still not understanding the significance of it though--has it been around for as long as his character, since his creation ? They give us the mobster backstory in "The Terror Beyond" (and it was cool to showcase a seemingly unimportant villain like that), but I can't see how the lines in the rhyme relate to human life and his reanimated life.

"Secret Society"
Don't get why they used Killer Frost. Plenty of other villains who'd already been introduced to choose from. Points for taking from Batman's stable and including Clayface, also appreciated the Morgan Edge nod (I remember him from Smallville, he sucked, so no problem with Killer Frost offing him).

Not much to say about that one. Some good scenes, some good lines and fights...A nice contrast having a dysfunctional team episode before showing how well they work together in "Wild Card".

"Hereafter"
Having Kalibak in there as part of the Superman-hating villains, I was hoping they'd have a moment of recognizing that Supes killed Darkseid recently. I guess the added fuel behind Kalibak's hate could simply be assumed by the viewer, but it just came off as your generic supervillain grudge.

Okay, bearded Clark. Handy-man, fire-building, sword-smithing, future-mutant-wolf-slaying, mechanic bearded Clark...hot. It had to be said.

Vandal Savage is awesome. I like future Vandal better than present day and WW2 Vandal. That's gotta be one of the best time travel stories ever done in a cartoon and one of my favorite Clark eps.

Actually, it's more like the Defenders vs Cthulhu and the Old Ones.
I think it was brilliant of them to use Hawkgirl as their Nighthawk analog and not the obvious Batman. And when Amazo becomes their Surfer it's so perfect you wonder if they had that in mind way back when they introduced him as shiny gold instead of elf ears and bare-chested.

I second that.

Killer Frost is there because she's cool. She kicks ass and has a power that's usefull, formidable and isn't shared by all that many poeple. She can't be disarmed and won't hesitate to kill off the League if she was given the chance.

I only know Killer Frost from "Alive!", but man is she creeeeeepy in that episode.


Heh. I've never read anything of the Defenders variety, but I hear that analogy all the time with this episode and "Wake the Dead" so...point jbreckenbridge!

Well Ice does, but I guess KF would trump her because Ice (and her friend Fire) seem more like followers than leaders.

I always thought that Killer Frost was a bad replacement for Livewire on JL/JLU. I know they had Livewire appear, but I think the fact they couldn't get Lori Petty to do the voice again made them throw in Killer Frost as a replacement due to the similar look, even though i'm pretty sure Killer Frost was an established dc character unlike the created for StAS Livewire.

It's been mentioned before, but I'd like to clarify. The nursery rhyme was written in the 1800's and is much older than the character. The character was modeled after the rhyme. Similar to how the comic book Fables has a character called Little Boy Blue who's modeled after the famous rhyme ("Little boy blue, come blow your horn...") instead of the other way around.

This is my guess, but I think the rhyme relates to DC's Solomon Grundy in that he's a zombie. The rhyme says that Grundy "died on Saturday" and was "buried on Sunday." But the character twists the last two lines ("That was the end of Solomon Grundy") because he's still alive (in a manner of speaking) and kickin'. As for the rest of the rhyme, I fanwank that's what went on in Grundy's life before he died for the first time.



That reminded me of something, so I went and Wiki-ed Morgan Edge. Found this:



I remember seeing scans of this! DC was probably trying to update Superman's image and give Clark more of an edge (ha, pun!), so they turned him from meek newshound to personable anchorman. It didn't really work (Clark's approachability is one of the character's most endearing traits); but it was sorta fun and slightly cracky while it lasted. If I recall correctly, Lana was fairly prominent in that storyline.

Both Killer Frost and Plastique (who shows up in "Task Force X") were originally part of the rogues' gallery of a hero who never ended up appearing in JL/JLU (although I'm given to understand they had permission to use him, and wanted to, but never managed to come up with a story for him that they liked): Firestorm. Frost first appeared in Firestorm #2 in 1978, and Plastique (who, in the comics, eventually married and is apparently currently separated from Captain Atom) came along in '82. And at one point or another, they were both members of the Suicide Squad.

Would that make Firestorm the only DC hero who appeared on Superfriends but not JLU?

Well, I was going to say Robin, until I remembered that Nightwing cameo, so, to quote Billy Joel... you may be right.