Saw those on YouTube and they are indeed hilarious episodes. Could not stop laughing for the life of me.



I realize that's an old comment, but it wasn't just Wonder Woman that was recast. This DVD is a whole new series---looks nothinng like the JL we were used to on Cartoon Network---with completely different animation and voice-actors.

A promo for the upcoming Bruce Timm-produced Justice League: The New Frontier is up. This is an adaptation of the modern classic miniseries by Darwyn Cooke, and isn't in continuity with the DCAU; hence the brand new voice actors like Kyle McLachlan (Superman), Jeremy Sisto (Batman), Lucy Lawless (Wonder Woman), David Boreanaz (Green Lantern), and Neil Patrick Harris (the Flash).

Not quite the DCAU, but it's all we've got in the realm of Timm animation for the forseeable future. And it looks good (plus: JFK!).

If Bruce Timm is in any way associated with it, I will watch it. Thank you for the link!

I think I'm most excited about hearing (for the first time) Kyle McLachlan, Jeremy Sisto and NPH as their respective characters. And Lucy Lawless, of course, that's my girl.

I'm just getting in to Justice League after re-watching a whole lotta Batman: TAS that I hadn't seen since I was a kid (though a lot of it was new to me too--Volume 4 with Tim Drake, "Mask of the Phantasm" and "Sub-Zero" too), Superman: TAS, and Batman Beyond (along with the superb "Return of the Joker" movie, of course). It took me over a year to go through it all and get around to buying the various sets. So here I am at the last series in the Timm-verse. 267 threads is a lot for a cartoon to have in this forum. It's a little intimidating, but I plan on starting to read once I'm done the first two seasons of Justice League so I won't get spoiled. In the meantime I just wanted to get a few thoughts out about the first few JL Season 1 stories.

"Secret Origins"
Love that this entire series is made up of 2- and 3-parters. Nie way to pace out the introductions of the main cast and, I assume, it'll make for some epic arcs that'll get more breathing room than some deserving stories did on Batman, Superman, and Batman Beyond (though they did take 2-parters here and there from time to time for those shows too).

Liking J'onn J'onzz and how he was the centerpiece of the premiere. Beyond making himself less threatening-looking initially for the benefit of the League though, I'm not sure why he'd maintain that bald-green-man-with-cape look. Kinda prefer his Martian regular appearance.

When the Imperium was sticking its tentacles up through J'onn's skin, the animation expertly conveyed the disgusting painfulness of it. I mean, that was pretty nasty in a franchise that's already seen some serious sci-fi weirdness and the occasional bit of grossness (for a kid-friendly cartoon). Beautiful effects in this series so far.

"In Blackest Night"
Not real impressed with the Green Lantern so far. Probably the weakest eps of JL so far for me. What happened to Kyle Rayner after his intro on Superman: TAS ? Does he eventually get a mention ? I have no problem with them going with John Stewart just to be different or to include more racial diversity or whatever, I'm not attatched to and have never read a Green Lantern comic...just wondering if they ignore what went on on Superman.

"The Enemy Below" Part 1 makes it feel like this won't be anything unique. Seen it all before with Namor in Marvel comics and cartoons, but not too familiar with DC and Aquaman. But with Part 2, there's the scene where he and his baby are sinking into a lava fissure and one arm is still shackled to the rock. The drawn out sinking sequence and frantic struggle to free himself created what's gotta be one of the most desperate scenes in the Timm-verse so far. Capped off with hand removal ! And then he gets stabbed/slashed by Orm at the North Pole and refuses to do that annoying help-the-villain-up-from-the-cliffside bullshit that Batman and Superman usually go for. Aquaman is baddass. Will have to re-watch his Superman introduction.

"The Brave and the Bold"
We aren't shown what happens to Cheetah after Lex suspects her of being the traitor and orders Grundy to take her away and kill her--is she dead ?

Also, are we supposed to buy into the idea that not only is Batman one of the world's greatest detectives and powers-free crime fighters, but a master at seduction as well ? Gonna be hard to ever top the Joker's "last" appearance in Batman Beyond's movie, but he was effectively menacing and fun here.

All right, been a week since I watched any, so time to go indulge some more.

Kyle makes an appearance in JLU, episode four or five. Justice League just gets better as it goes on.

Didn't Timm say at one point that he didn't want Kyle to come back at all?

Thanks for the link for the new movie.
I look forward to it but not to explaining to my son why GL is different and where Hawkgirl, etc are.

jedicaboose asked:


If he did, I'm real curious as to why.

That teaser/interview clip for the "New Frontier" DVD movie makes it look real promising. Jeremy Sisto is gonna be an awesome Batman, no disrespect to the definitive Kevin Conroy.

I wish they'd used all the human Green Lanterns at some point.

They got close. Only Guy Gardner was never featured, right? I know, I know, Hal was a cameo but they still used him.

Isn't that episode title the one with Grodd trying to take over the city with mind control? The episode you're describing is "The Injustice League," I believe.

They never showed Guy or Alan Scott, they got close with Alan but he nevcer actually appears. It's too bad considering Alan's son was in the League.

I think Green Guardsman was as close as we'd get to Alan. Guy appeared on "The Green Loontern" episode of Duck Dodgers, which was surprisingly good.

Yep, you're right. I got them mixed up because of how the disc episodes' listings are placed on the inside flap of the Season 1 cover. I was looking at Disc 3's episodes and mistook them for Disc 2. "The Injustice League" makes sense too, seeing as that's essentially what the villains teamed up to be in the show, even though they never referred to themselves as that like they would in the comics.

She was supposed to be killed (off-screen, of course) but there's an animation error showing her being locked up with the rest at the end so she's still alive. She shows up in later episodes.



Hey, it's a bat/cat thing. However, I'd say that GL was the true ladies man of the series. He gets three heroines wanting to hook up with him.

Aside from Vixen and Shayera, who was the third?

There was that GL that trained him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katma_Tui
That's the one who trained him.

I guess chicks just dig the ring.

I can understand his trainer and Shayera but I never got why Vixen stayed with him. He was dissing her pretty hard for her first two of her three episodes.

I recall her saying something about "seeing it through" towards the end of the series. Which, OK, you want to stay in a relationship with a man you know is still in love with someone else? I didn't get that, either. It's not unheard for someone to having feelings for more than one person, but I've never been one to believe you could really be in love with more than one person at the same time. OMMV, of course.

ETA:
To his credit, John did choose Vixen, but I always wondered if it was more an act of defiance towards "fate," or a true desire to be with Vixen. Maybe it was both.

More Justice League Season 1 newbie talk...

The theme song's really grown on me. It's not as repeat-satisfying as Batman Beyond--unhealthy, unhealthy love for BB's--or as much of a classic as Batman:TAS' (I forget some of the later things they did with the Batman intro, though I remember thinking the Batman/Superman combo intro was kinda cool for three or four viewings), but it's a lot better than Superman:TAS'...which didn't suck, just nothing standout about it and a little bit generic-cartoon-intro.

Some portions of the CGI look pretty odd though (Wonder Woman). A few portions are effectively cool. I'm glad it changes later (in Justice League Unlimited, if not Season 2 of this first incarnation of the show ?).

"Paradise Lost"
Do we find out who Diana's father is/was in the series ? If it's a major reveal or exceptionally cool surprise, don't spoil me for it. I was starting to think it might be Hades based on only knowing that little bit about Hippolyta's love life.

What species are the women of Themyscara anyway--gods, really long-lived mortals, a mixed breed of the two, or something else ? Gets a bit confusing in the DC Universe with the Atlanteans, New Genesis aliens, Kryptonians, and many others all looking exactly like humans. The Marvel Universe doesn't have quite as much of a problem with that, or at least occasionally differentiates it's almost-human types with distinctive hair like the Shi'ar.

How old is Diana supposed to be ?

Skipping over "War World". Nothing to say about it except how tired I am of every goddamn sci-fi/fantasy series having exactly this kind of forced-battle-in-the-pit-for-spectacle story (bonus if it takes place on an alien world!). Every fucking one of 'em!
I may have slight issues.

Yay gorillas, honestly gorillas are cool, but come on--"Gorilla City" ? Nice to have a Flash focus ep, along with a weird and awesome dream sequence with multiple transformation sequences to freak the guy out...I've only watched Part 1 so far, so I'll stop judging now until I've seen Part 2.

He chose Vixen because the writers couldn't figure out how to get him to dump her without having him come across as a jerk. Seriously.

But it's supposed to be because he generally liked Vixen, which is why they had that nice scene earlier that episode. That first act is the only part of the episode I like and it's too bad John treated Vixen like crap in Hunter's Moon (which is also the reason they got the nice scene this episode).


Technically, Diana doesn't have a father. She was sculpted from clay and given life. Although, in JLU there is a suggestion that she sort of has a father but it's never verified.



Amazons are immortal humans who've been blessed by the gods. They never get into the origins here but I think they're just supposed to be warrior women that the gods empowered to protect Themescera.


A few thousand years old. Her mother is much older.

If the cartoon continuity followed the comic book continuity, then the Amazons were created by the Greek gods from the spirits of women who had been killed by men. (Hippolyta was the spirit of the first woman killed by a man, IIRC.) They were meant to embody all the virtues of the gods and bring enlightenment to humanity. The Amazons were betrayed and raped by Herakles and his men and fell from favor because they defied Athena's command not to seek revenge. To redeem themselves, they relocated to the island of Themiscyra (named after their original home city), were granted immortality and set to watch over a portal to the underworld.

I think that's the current post-Crisis DC origin of the Amazons, though it's from memory so I might be a little off on the details.

I also think Diana is definitely the strongest of the Amazons. In the comics that strength was a gift from the gods...don't know what it was on the cartoon. In a few episodes when they've shown the Amazons attacking, they seem weaker than Diana. On "Fury," the one Amazon struggled to lift a rock to hurl at Shayera...Diana would've thrown that thing as if it were a piece of lint. Also, her mother had to be rescued quite a few times herself. And I have a strong feeling that Diana's the only Amazon who can fly.

Also, if Aresia (from "Fury") wasn't a Themiscyran-born Amazon, I wonder how she was stronger than Diana (IMO).

I was actually going to come here to mention character switches. I've been catching up thanks to YouTube and caught a few episodes last night (hence my functioning on four hours of sleep now).

In "Tabula Rasa," J'Onn has a freak out and is questioning humanity, but Diana is the one consoling him. In "Hawk and Dove," J'Onn is consoling Diana about being around humanity. And it switches again in "To Another Shore."

Also, Shayera seemed to have Diana's strength in "Shadow of the Hawk" (I know Shayera's tough, but since when can she rip chains and bricks off walls?), and seemed to have Flash's silliness and snark in "The Balance."

Did anyone else notice that?

Was it ever stated that Aresia was stronger than Diana? I always figured that all the Amazons were of the equal strength, Aresia just got the jump on Diana b/c she wasn't expecting it, so it caught her off guard. Would you expect someone you called your sister to hit you full force?

Diana might have a little more to her than the others, but I think most of the abnormal powers from the other Amazons comes from the suit.

In regards to Shayera, she's a Thangardian w/wings, so she's not exactly human and I always figured for her and Diana to be on the same level strength wise. She uses her strength more w/her mace than actual pummeling and throwing. Silliness and snark, we all have and we all show it at different times.

There was an IMO (in my opinion) on my previous statement. No, it wasn't stated in the episode that Aresia was stronger, but I felt she had the upper hand on Diana throughout a lot of the episode, even after their first encounter in "man's world." I thought Aresia would've finished her off had the plane not start exploding. Maybe Aresia's strength was more rage-fueled hence why she came off as "stronger" to me.

All that aside, I felt the DC cartoon did a great job with Diana's Themiscyran heritage (albeit diverting from the original origins). The SuperFriends cartoon wasn't deep enough to go there, and the live-action show had completely forgotten about it when it switched to CBS. I felt the live-action version assimilated Diana to the outside world too much. While Diana on JL assimilated well, there was always that part of her that felt like an outsider. Also, she still felt that strong bond with her "sisters," while Lynda Carter on the live-action one tended to have a different "male friend" per episode than female ones.

Shayera is stronger than a human but not even close to Diana's strength, which is almost as great as Superman's.

In the post-Crisis comics, Diana's mother was a superhero in her own right, filling the role of Wonder Woman both during WWII and during a period when Diana wasn't around. And she had strength, flight, and immortality during that period.

My recollection from the original stories (which the live-action TV show got right) was that there was a competition to see who would represent the Amazons in man's world, and Diana's victory was not a sure thing. Which indicates that she wasn't necessarily that much stronger than the other Amazons. But it's definitely true that in modern comics continuity, she has strength second only to Superman.

Throughout the course of the past few weekends, I've seen almost every episode of Justice League thanks to a combination of YouTube, some site that had episodes as well, and luck. I've also read a ton of pages of this thread to feel "caught up." What a show. I think they should've done more with it. I wish they would've kept the Diana Prince alter ego for the cartoon, so they could've did a spinoff with her. Since her story was already established on the cartoon, there's no place else to go with her character, IMO.

Did you all like the show more as JL or JLU? I liked the story archs of JL, but JLU had its moments with comedy. I did feel there were too many damn people in JLU and it's easy to get confused. Why didn't they stick with the original group and format, and have guest superheros/villains to fit each episode?

Cypher21 said:


That's what I assumed. I figured that was what we were meant to assume when she snatched the Wonder Woman accessories from where they were stored on her island in "Secret Origins". Wearing them gives her a major boost.

Thanks all for the background on Diana and the Amazons. roosterboy, that's interesting that the comics continuity explains the original Amazons are all rape victims, but I'm not sure I like that for the cartoon (like they would ever confirm something like that in North American kid's animated series, much as Timm and company would imply some pretty dark things at times when they couldn't get away with showing 'em). It's fitting and all, very grim (and kinda Grimm) fairy tale origin-like, but I guess if it wasn't confirmed on the show, the details of their origin are open to interpretation.

Back to "Brave & The Bold" for a sec, where in the U.S. is Central City supposed to be located? Gotham's near or maybe standing in for Manhattan in the DC universe, right ? Smallville's Kansas, I think ? And Metropolis? Fairly close to Gotham, if my memories of the three or four B:TAS/S:TAS crossovers are accurate.

"Fury"
I'd swear this is the first ep anyone calls Diana "Wonder Woman". Since a secret identity is useless for her anyway, was kinda hoping Timm and friends had just decided not to bother with the corny superhero name for this particular character. So it sounded kinda awkward when Batman called her out of an alleyway with it.

Ah, using the Amazons for gender-focused stories--should've seen that coming. Very effective. Aresia is one of the more well-conceived villains introduced by this series. Her plan was chilling. Loved the intro with Diana in the ladies' store. This was just some powerful storytelling.

"Legends"
Oh man. Some of the spoofery and attempted jokes were a little lame, but the majority worked for me and some bits were brilliant. I can't believe the following exchange made it through, I LOL'd so hard:

Green Lantern to Streak: "It's an honor to fight beside you."
Streak: "The feeling's mutual. You're a credit to your people, son!" !!!
GL: "Uhh...thanks."

Guess I shouldn't have been surprised what with the rampant sexism involving Hawkgirl that preceded it.

I kinda loved that 2-parter. It was even a bit creepy and the ep completely won me over with the reveal of the nuclear fallout mutant kid. I'm guessing he's dead at the end there (the commentary implies as much).

"A Knight with Shadows"
I'm a sucker for most stories directly related to or injected with an Arthurian flavor, so this worked for me. Nice to see them getting so much use out of Olivia D'Abo's voice acting. Her portrayal of Morgan La Fay was just different enough from her other villainous role as Star Sapphire to set them apart sound-wise, though Minnie Driver would've been an even better choice. I kept expecting her son Mordred to get the Philosopher's stone finally and morph into an older more powerful version of himself, or into some sort of beast, since that's usually what happens with these kinds of stories in cartoons. Seems strange he wouldn't age to maturity after a millenium or so. Maybe they're saving that for the follow-up to this arc ?

I liked Jason Blood/Etrigan (especially Etrigan--too bad he's not on the team permanently for his keen observations and merciless cracks at the spandex-clad members). They gave him a good and strange origin episode toward the end of Batman: TAS, I'm glad they brought him back. Hoping they use Morgan La Fay again.

Morgan is keeping her son young with magic, it's adressed in a few seasons.

JLU is probably the best of the DCAU shows because they finally gave in and accepted continuity as a story strength rather than a weakness.

I don't have much love for the "Big Seven" Justice League episodes, especially the first season. I only really like 'Legends', the Justice Lords episodes and 'Star Crossed'. I did like alternate Batman from 'Savage Time', poor sap thought he'd get his parents back by correcting history.

I'm fond of the big villain team ups from the first two seasons. Also anything involving the Amazons is usually pretty good. And the episodes with Dr Destiny attacking the League with their nightmares, it was creepy and gave us a nice look into the League's minds.

Growing up, we had these books that came with a cassette tape that read the story to you as you listened.
In that story, Diana's orgin was told, and it, too, dealt with a competition to see who was strong enough to go to Man's World to help take back Steve Trevor.
Diana wore a mask, after being told by her mother she could not compete. I remember the book saying that everyone wanted to know who the masked Amazon was. Apparently, they weren't very smart.
But that origin is the one told in those books, and I think... but I am not sure... it was a pre-crisis toy that I got post crises era. However, I did not know anything about the comics or about Crisis until I came to this forum about five years ago.

According to the Mayfair Games Atlas of the DC Universe (synopsized here), which has never been declared canon, but seems fairly consistent with what DC has been doing for the last 15-20 years or so, Central City is just north of Kansas City, on the Missouri side of the Mississippi River; Metropolis is in Delaware (although at one point in the late 70s-early 80s, a Legion of Super-Heroes story had 30th-century Metropolis pretty much encompassing the entire Northeast corridor, from Boston to D.C.); and Gotham's in New Jersey.

The original WW story had the competition that Diana entered with a mask. Post-Crisis the Amazons became the resurrected souls of women battered to death by men. It also became much more consistent with Greek mythology. IIRC, they really didn't know what to do with the title after finally ending WWII in the early or mid 70s and I think they would have had to do a total revamp anyway even without Crisis.

I've said it before, changing to JLU ruined the whole show. Loved the early episodes, loved Starcrossed. Then they added too many characters, too many dumb stories, and cut out the multi-episode arcs.

I think the change from the core 7 in JL to the many in JLU hurt the show as well. Starting w/the third season they could have dealt w/the Thangraian invasion aftermath as well as Hawkgirl's temporary abscence w/select guest stars. The only people I was really interested in and worked, were Green Arrow, Black Canary, the Question, and Huntress. I know some might say we couldn't get the awesome Cadmus storyarc w/o the grouping of the many heroes, but I think they could have done it w/just bringing in the key players only. The main point was that against the large team of the JLU regular humans didn't have a chance, but even just against the core 7 it could still be said we wouldn't have chance.

Edited to add: Schroder you are right, I did forget Supergirl and that was my error. I was really shocked that they added her when they switched to JLU. I figured she would be just an afterthought after S:TAS, since it seemed w/her revival on that show was to try and bring her back to the comics then they kinda fucked her up from there. She had the most growth more than any of the Superman or Batman, and I thought it was a cop-out when they ditched her in the future b/c they thought she would be in the new Legion animated series. They brought that new costume in for her too late imo, it was a great look on her and she did look more mature and grown up.

They should have left JLU w/another animated Timm version series ready to go. I think a Green Arrow/Black Canary & Question/Huntress series would have been great. Kind of a series based on the Hard Travelling Heroes storyline. It would have been great.

That's what I've always read, and I prefer it that way. DC's cities don't take the place of other cities, they just fill in where big cities are needed and we don't have any in the real world.

Coast City? Where is that? And Ivy Town? Are there any more "big" cities in the DC universe any more other than Metropolis, Gotham City and Central City? What was Wonder Woman's home base for so long? Or Green Arrow?

---

Cypher21, I agree with you completely, but I would add in Supergirl, simply because we've seen her before and have such a rich history with her thanks to Superman: TAS.

She continued to grow in JLU and I cared to watch her do so. Introducing Vixen or Vigilante or even Ray Palmer, while interesting, were characters I did not care about to see grow as characters. At least with Supergirl, we know her. Batgirl or Robin could have made an appearance and I would have been happy, but for the emargo, that could not happen.

On the other hand, I thought it kicked ass to play "Who's in the background" in every episode. I loved it.

Feh, they couldn't even write The Flash, Wonder Woman or John Stewart interestingly enough in the "Big Seven" days. And Shayera only became a true character after her betrayal. They all remained stock types until JLU.

I find it funny that people claim JLU lacked in character focus because they used a lot of heroes as 'soldiers' in the background. JLU's improved writing fixed a lot of mistakes by giving the core members better characterization (without the writers defaulting back to Batman, Superman or J'onn lie they usually did).

John Stewart especially was pretty much the token black guy who the writers struggled to make interesting until Starcrossed. His constant appearences did nothing but reinforce that they didn't know what to do with him. It wasn't until his JLU appearences that we saw him come into his own as a leader and wasn't relied upon to make the show 'racially balanced'.

Most of the big seven got better story arcs in JLU. Shayera earned her redemption, J'onn joined humanity, The Flash saved the world, Superman became closer to his Justice Lord counterpart while Batman got a chance to be a bit more sided with humanity than just one of the other superheroes.

Do we really need to flesh out D-stringers like Fire, Ice or B'Wanna Beast? Characters who don't even get dialouge in most comics they appear in? The new format gave them a chance to try out new characters and the ones who really worked got recurring roles while some got on just enough to bacome likable but not tiresome (characters like Shining Knight or Vigilante, who are ridiculous in concept, appeared just enough to win us over.)

I'd rather see some good characterization for a character who appears a couple times than one who gets 20 appearences and stays a stereotype.

I have to agree. JLU wasn't about character development, it was used to stockpile obscure characters in cameo spots for the ewww and ahhh moments!

JL developed it characters and relationships among the core 7 and they felt like a family who cared about oneanother. JLU had the league acting cold and quite distance. I was glad once JLU wrapped because everything was going downhill!

Exactly! The fact they had to write out Jonn for over half of the second season and keep him inactive up in the watchtower said a lot about how they focused on the cameo/special guest star factor than what they established during the first two years.

Schroeder writes:


As ever, Wiki's got the hookup:

DC Comics towns and cities

I have to say I prefered the expanded roster to the original seven, though admit that the last season was pretty lacking.

I'm glad they expanded the roster. In JL is was mostly just watching for interesting villains or the occasional inetresting character bit. In JLU we got more characters to potentially like, and I did like most of the ones they gave speaking roles to, and we didn't have to wait a week to see how a story which would usually only be worth about twenty minutes ended. Cliffhangers really annoy me so having the show change to an ongoing plot through a series of weekly stand alone stories was a nice change. And J'onn was never really that interesting to me so having his role reduced didn't bother me much.

Yeah. And like you mention the arcs were pretty much eliminated and everything about JLU was rushed.

Although Green Arrow and The Question was good, neither was really need for the show. But had they wanted to include more to the original Seven than add those two and maybe Black Canary and Vixen and thats it. I like Supergirl but not for this show. Along with the overcrowding of obsure characters, JLU lacked focus and it showed, IMO.

Adding new characters wasn't in itself a bad idea, it was that they threw dozens into the mix without any plan for most of them. I mean, an entire episode dedicated to Hawk and Dove? They could have made the 'War is Bad' point a hundred different ways, and with better writing. And then they added in the Marvel-esque government oversight and fear of superhumans on top.

I'm confused as to why people say they dropped story arcs? The two seasons of JLU both had story arcs (Cadmus vs the League and the League vs the Legion of Doom).

I think it's not the overall story arc, it's that there wasn't much fleshing out of the characters like there was during the first two season of JL. I don't think there has ever been a better story arc in an animated show like the Cadmus storyline, simply due to how far back it went and who all was involved.

You really think the characters got fleshed out in the first two seasons? It took them over a season and a half to do soemthing interesting with most of the new characters, IMO, with only Diana and J'onn getting any decent development in the first season. Superman got pretty much nothing and Batman was already as developed as he was going to get. IMO, Hawkgirl and Green Lantern didn't become interesting until the second season was almost over and Flash didn't get much of an indepth look until the last season.

So we are agreeing that everyone w/the exception of Superman, Batman, and the Flash were fleshed out, right? What major character developments were made to them in the JLU era w/the exception of Diana and Hawkgirl?