If you're only experience with JLU was a badly voiced dub in which the story was changed, self-referential jokes were inserted and all of the violence was cut out, you'd think it sucked and write off all american animation.

But the truth would be that you'd have watched a bad dub of a foreign show that was really awesome in it's original form.

From what you are all describing of anime, you aren't qualified to speak on it's quality since you've only watched in dubbed (and highly edited) form.

I'm going to call that both Ad-Hominem and Bravo Sierra.

I am certainly qualified to speak on what does or does not appeal to me visually. And whther Japanime is in native language or not, it still would not change the poorly done animation. The big head screaming, the river flowing tears. All of the hallmarks of Japanime that I hate.

Not once did I say I hated the plot. I freaking HATE the quality of the drawing and the visual stylings. Though I do hate Teen Titans for its kid-friendly slant.

Amen to everything Hannibal Khan said. I've never been able to get into the plots of any anime show because I find the visual style to be so ugly.

If it worked for Nietzsche, who are we to judge?



Except that the movies they're showing, the works of Miyazaki, are entirely lacking in all these traits--no hyper-stylized emoting, and filled with rich, detailed imagery and fluid motion. Again, if they were showing (and I'll use this example again, because I disagree with some here, I think this show is utter garbage) Yugioh, I'd be right there with you guys. But Miyazaki is an artist without peer in the field of animation, and deserves respect. Saying the works of a man noted for his quiet, contemplative style are too "manic" seems pretty silly.

Anime is no more all screaming and distorted proportions than all TV is no more than "American Idol".



That's part of what makes it a hyperbole, skip.



What exactly has impressed you, then?

There's hyperbole, and then there's the ludicrous. Hyperbole still requires some semblance of comparing apples and oranges to be effective.

As to what impresses me, when it comes to animation, not much anymore. JLU. The Timmverse in general. The Simpsons. The CGI offerings of Pixar. Almost all of the Disney animated ouvre, with certain notable exceptions (including the too-revered Snow White - haaaaaaaate). Dexter's Lab and The Powerpuff Girls, which I guess might be considered American-ized anime. I liked The Animatrix, but not everything in it was drawn in the anime style.

As for Miyazaki, while he may not fall into many of the worse cliches of anime, like the manic movements, or the river of tears, I simply find his designs ugly.

All of which is now getting off-topic.

Anyone picked up Season 1 yet? What are the (probably less than comprehensive) extras about?

My use of the adjective "manic" was soley referring to Teen Titans and perhaps Yugioh (is that the show that's on after JLU?). Although, I also am not the biggest fan of the general anime look, I would never compare the story/dialogue content of Miyazaki's films with Teen Titans or Yugioh... or the like.

I bought JL season 1 today at lunch. I'm still at work, so I haven't seen it yet. But I was surprised to find that that they really slimmed down the packaging as compared to the B:TAS volume sets. Looks like we get 3 commentaries. God, Supes sure did look awful during the 1st season. He had such a severe, lined face - glad they redesigned him.

Cus animie is teh s uck!That oddly works for Lupin III because the incongruence of contemporary dubbing while the whole show screams 1972 is just too fun.

I'll buy the DVDs as soon as I can, because I never saw the second half of when they met all the Silver Age archetypes in the paralel universe. "My ring doesn't work on aluminum!"

"You're a real credit to your people." "Um...yeah." Good times. Gotta love Hawkgirl getting exasperated over the faux GL's actions.

I've said a few times how much I hate the Timm-style of drawing, with the highly exaggerated broad shoulders and tiny waists and legs on the men. Personally, it's much uglier than any Miyazaki I've ever seen.

I'm not sorry they've cancelled JLU, because they already killed it with the bad scripts and a cast of thousands.

Meh. Art is subjective.

Funnily enough, that pretty much mimicks the comic books to a T.

Actually Adult Swim begins right after JLU's slot on Cartoon Network, so no.

Nope. Timm's style is very simplified. I like it (well, not as much as the original BTAS) but it's no where near the amount of detail of any mainstream comic art.

Ironically in light of the anime bashing from the most recent posts on the thread, Batman: tAS was co-produced by Japanese studio Sunrise.

And most American cartoons are animated in Korea.

The point is not where or who produces them. The issue for most of us is style.

Yeah, but the counterpoint to that is where it's produced will have an effect on its style quite a bit. Bruce Timm & Co. openly admit that the redesign of the Batman Animated Series was because it was going to start being produced in Korea, and they wanted to make it easier for their artists there.

The Despero episode especially seemed very anime-influenced in its character design and direction. It's not all hyper-big eyes and skinny androgynous characters. Often, the motion of the action and the second-tier characters have a strong Asian-influenced design.

Which is cool by me. I'm no slobbering anime fan, and I'm no western animation isolationist either. I think cultural exchange has produced some of the finest Superhero cartoons ever, and that suits me just fine.

1) If you never watched it, how do you know it's not like the comics? (That's the Wolfman/Perez comics, not the new version that evolved out of Peter David's Young Justice.)

2) JLU isn't anything like the comics either - so what? It's a lot easier to reboot the characters than to try to fill a new viewer in on 40+ years of continuity...

And I tip my hat to you for that, MereyGB.



Obviously. Is that supposed to make opinions unassailable? If so, then why bother sharing them?

I wouldn't presume to try to change your opinion, but please, get informed ones. If you said you didn't like Miyazaki because his stuff is odd, slow, and too culturally specific, then, well, fine. Be that way. But Miyazki sucks because The Batman sucks? Huh? It doesn't quite fly to say Miyazki's stuff is poorly animated, because that's the one thing it most definately is not.

Oh, yes. JLU. Uhh....uhhh.... Green Arrow rules, and I want a show based around he and Black Canary.

Throw in The Question and Huntress and I'd be down with that.

Thank you, Space, for trying to steer the discussion back to the topic. Everyone else: please follow that example.

Edited to follow Space's example.

Let me just say that I think JLU was great while it lasted, but ultimately Cartoon Network seems more intent on bringing Japanime to the masses and let a quality program like JLU die on the vine. I wish they would've waited on making their decision until after the season sets of the show came out on DVD, because I think sales of that could have provided a bit more incentive for them to keep the show.

I'd definitely be down with a brave and the bold type show with Green Arrow and Black Canary...but if it's going to be Japanime like Teen Titans and the Legion of Super Heroes, I'd rather they just forget about it.

Irish Wolf, I watched a few minutes of the first episode and what I meant but didn't say well enough was that it wasn't like the comics in terms of animation. To me rather than teenagers/almost adults in it, they looked like 10 year olds playing dress up.

TT was aimed at 6-11 year olds, so they really weren't meant to look very adult.

They'd obviously have to figure in somewhere...

But I'm not sure if they'd make good "co-stars", if you will. Specifically, I don't think Question would. He was absolutely awesome in his frequent guest star role, but I could see his conspiracy routine getting old pretty quickly, if it wasn't directly involved with the plot--which would kill the fun and mystery of the Question, wondering if there was actually anything behind his claims.



<Superhero Grin, with tooth twinkle> It was nothing. Just doing my job. Up, up, and away!

Semi o/t:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/stor...94x&n=204301011

Ugh, Lindsay Lohan as Wonder Woman? Barf.

ugh

Why is that the only word that leaps to mind when we both read that story? :)

Lohan's not a bad choice, IMHO. First, whatever might be going on in her personal life, she can act, IMHO.

Second, as much as a b-tt-kicking Lucy Lawless type would be closer to the WW in the JLU and the recent comics, it's hard to imagine Joss picking any body type other than a Sarah Michelle Gellar/Summer Glau petite engenue. (Actually, Glau would make a great Diana - she's got that otherworldliness about her).

If Joss is going to plunder his former cast for WW, it needs to be Morena Baccharin. Especially after Serenity.

Lohan, whatever her talents, is not only too small, she's too young.

MB is too small (under 5'8"), but she's got the classic look going for her -- she looks like a greek statue come to life. With the right outfit and hairdo, anyway.

Lindsay Lohan... doesn't.

Of course, I would have said that about Michael Keaton as Batman, and I still think that worked surprisingly well.

I don't know if this is my peering through superheroes with my childish lens thing or what, but for some reason, having way youngins play iconic superheroes has always bugged me. Although when I found out Chris Reeve was 25 when the first Superman movie came out, I was totally stunned.

Anyway, so I picture Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, etc. as being in their early-to-mid 30s most of the time, and whenever someone like LINDSAY LOHAN (!) is bandied about for one of those roles, I am appalled usually. My ideal choice for Wonder Woman would be Claudia Black from Farscape myself. And I really liked Michael Keaton's Batman too.

However, Wally West Flash can be in his 20s. I got the JL box set and watched two complete episodes last night, and one was the Brave and Bold episode with the introduction to Grodd. I'd never seen all of it. Great one! "Flash, don't heckle the supervillain" may be one of the best lines ever. And then I rewatched "Legends" with the JSA stand-ins. Man, it's so full of cheese and gross throbbing head veins, and then I totally sniffle at the end every time. Good on them. A worthy dedication to Gardner Fox indeed.

She was also 1,000 times hotter before she lost a shitload of weight. Fuck Hollywood.

The reason the roles are often cast young is for the sake of franchise longevity. You can get more movies out of a young actor than you can out of an older one. TV can get away with casting older because you're getting a new run of 20-some shows a year, whereas a movie series has 2-3 year gaps between installments.

The danger with casting young is that more often than not, studios don't want to find the RIGHT young actor. They want the hot name of the moment. We came dangerously close to Ashton Kutcher or Justin Timberlake as Superman in recent years, and even closer to Kutcher as Batman (not that Bale was any good, but I digress). We almost got Beyonce Knowles as Lois Lane. And Lindsay Lohan as WW is right up there with those proposed casting ideas. She's just not appropriate to the part. It reeks of stunt casting, plain and simple. Want a young Wonder Woman? Fine. Go for it. But don't sell the character out running for the first flavor of the month you see. That's my take on it.

And Kate Bosworth is better? Definitely not, IMO. She is as much a "flavor of the month" as Beyonce or Lohan.

If Jenifer Connely would get back up to playing weight she'd be perfect. It's bad enough she's not Black Dahlia.

Agreed fuck Hollywood LL and JC looked so much better with curves.

No, Bale wasn't any good. He was awesome.



Which works, since he was Kid Flash when Superman and Batman were already years into their gigs.

One thing I wish JLU had done -- I don't know if it was to avoid confusion or if they just couldn't figure out a justifiable storyline that didn't involve the Crisis -- was give us some semblance of Wally being the second (or third, even) Flash. Some idea that there had at one point been a Barry Allen in the Timmverse, and that his sacrifice had left Wally filling his shoes.

Wally in JLU is the only Flash. Barry may exist but he wasn't Flash.

I know that. That's why I'm saying I wish they had done something different.

But then you'd get whiney 'my uncle is dead and I have to work damn hard to continue his legacy while never actually fully living up to his example' Wally. I like it better like this.

That's an Appallingly bad idea. Ugh! That's just gross.

Well, I did notice Jay's Mercury helmet at the museum...

I understand wanting that, especially if you're a Barry-fan. (I'm rather unfamiliar with most DC comics, so I really have no opinion on him.)

But I agree with TimeMonkey that having this backstory in the Universe would fundementally alter the character of this Wally West. I like him as he is, so I'm hesitant to do that.

But further, if there had been references to Barry, it might have cheapened the triumph over Brainiac/Luthor in "Divided We Fall," Which was one of the Great Shining Moments of the show for me. As I understand it, when Barry sacrificed himself to save, he went so fast he became one with the Speed Force . . . just as Wally did in DWF. If there had been reference to Barry's sacrifice, then it would have been sort of "oh, that again." Or at best "Good for Wally, finally living up to his uncle's legacy." But without any reference to Barry's sacrifice as the Flash, it's just "Oh my God! Wahoo! Go Wally!" and then real shock when he starts to fade away. Which I think works a lot better for everyone who isn't familiar with/invested in the story of Barry Allen as the Flash.

FWIW though, I've always thought that Wally's big thing in the comics is that he mastered the speed force, while Barry didn't really even know what he was doing, and so he died. Noblely, of course, but dead all the same.

Mind you, my Flash knowledge is rather spotty.

I don't think Lohan is seriously being bandied about for the role. Half the actresses in Hollywood want to play Wonder Woman.

I recently played catch-up and watched the last three this past weekend. Just how many episodes do we have left? Four? Two?

And those LoSH designs are frightening. Personally, I'm a little relieved that JLU is ending. I'm just tired of CN's yo-yo scheduling. I can't put up with it anymore. I look forward to owning the last crop of JL/JLU DVDs. Yeah. Even if it means waiting several months to a year or two. It's not like I won't be busy or distracted in the meantime.

Why did JLU have to end? :( So sad about that. And it ended without some issues lying unresolved. After This Little Piggy, the show didn't address what happened between WW and Bats. (correct me if I'm wrong, my JL knowledge's a bit fuzzy). I guess nothing can really happen between them because he IS Batman, but I just want a little shipiness here and there to satisfy my love for both characters.
Anyway, I guess there's probably little chance for the show to go on. Bruce Timm said it himself that it's the end. I'll definitely miss JLU.

*thanks for the suggestion MereyGB

fuss gawk: First, I'd spoiler tag your post. There are still a few JLU eps that haven't aired in the U.S.

And I'm also a little upset that the Diana/Bruce thing didn't really go anywhere. However, according to some of the posts I've read of the writers, I think we were suppose to infer that Bruce just wasn't interested in starting a relationship and Diana finally got the hint. Oh well...I just wish we'd seen more of the Lois/Clarrk 'ship. Oh well, at least we'll always have Question and Huntress!

They do mention it in The Once and Future Thing Part I. Bats says that as fantastic as Diana is, he can't really get into a relationship. I think that's all of the resolution we're going to get.

I have a vague memory of Dwayne McDuffie mentioning on his board that he considered the end of this to be when Bats had his hissy fit after Superman sent Doomsday to the Phantom Zone. I'm not sure what the other producers thought, and I suppose it's not crucial. Bruce Wayne's story is pretty much laid out:

1. In the near future, he'll live through the events of ROTJ and inexplicably fail to call any JLU members for help.
2. In the near apocalypse of '09, he'll take down Ra's al Ghul for the "final" time and get most of the credit for it.
3. Roughly 20 years later, he'll retire after designing the Batman Beyond batsuit and being forced to use a gun to hold off his attackers.
4. 20 years after that, Terry takes over and Batman Beyond happens.
5. 15 years after that he'll be a really old man and essentially let Terry do his own thing.

The big mystery is Flash. We can fanwank that J'onn is still around from TOAFT dialogue, we know that WW (or at least someone with the name) is active (mentioned in Static Shock), Superman is definitely active, and Hawkgirl and GL have Warhawk to continue their legacy.

So, are there more episodes or are we done?

I think there will be new episodes after the Mizumi or whatever it's called with the anime movies is done.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0603/28/index.htm

Thanks much.

Is the Avengers movie that references the one that's out on DVD now or a different one?