Heck, nobody remembers Wonder Woman's death during the final battle with the Anti-Monitor either (and apparently everyone forgot the older Woman even existed).

Almost everything that was published was Earth-1. There were a couple of attempts at Justice Society of America or All Star Squadron series that each lasted a few years, and I think Huntress (Earth-2 daughter of Batman and Catwoman) had her own series. But otherwise, Earth-2 was only something that occasionally popped up in a JLA crossover.

As for the other Earths -- well, Captain Marvel and the other Fawcett characters (like Bulletman!) existed in their own continuity. I don't think they had any interaction with the rest of the DCU before the Crisis. And at some point the Earth-X Freedom Fighters moved to Earth-1. (I think that move opened the way for them to have their own brief series).

Oh, well...huh. Now that makes a whole lot more sense. Everything I've read about 'Crisis' up until this point sugguests that the DC comics leading up to 1985 was a huge mess. I thought each comic book title was dealing various earths, so I imagining a confusing collison of entertwining continuities and versions of characters. Well, it's good to know that that wasn't the case. Thanks LTG!

Also, from a handful of posts back, who's Matrix?

After the Crisis, John Byrne declared that Superman was the only survivor of Krypton. No Supergirl, no Krypto, no bottle city, no kryptonian supercriminals.

However, some time later, Superman did discover a "pocket universe" - a short lived alternate dimension in which Superboy had been killed by three kryptonian supercriminals, who then ruled over their Earth, opposed only by a good, but increasingly desperate Alex Luthor.

Matrix was a creation of Luthor's - an artificial lifeform with shapeshifting and telekinetic powers, who typically took a form that looked a lot like Supergirl. After the destruction of the pocket universe, she came to Superman's universe as the pocket universe's only survivor.

Her best early run came when she fell in love with Superman's Lex Luthor and became his girlfriend, unaware that he was actually the evil Lex. (There was cloning and a brain transplant involved.)

Later on, Peter David did a run of comics with her that were very well reviewed and sold very poorly, and which I didn't read.

Those Kryptonian villains didn't kill Superboy; he died stopping the Time Trapper in Legion of Super-Heroes #38. As a result, there was no one to stop the Kryptonians when they came to Earth and that universe's Luthor had to create Matrix from Lana Lang's genetic material.

So, Lana is Supergirl?

Don't tell the Smallville forumers. It might give them an aneurysm, and not the funny kind.

Well, the dead Lana Lang of an alternate universe. Luthor used her genetic material as the basis for the shapeshifting Matrix creature.

Post-Crisis DC is easily more screwed up than Pre-Crisis. The whole point was to be more "steamlined and realistic" and it was, at first, then they started going through backflips to bring back the Pre-Crisis stuff that they went thought all that trouble to get rid of in the first place. Then there's the fact that all the Pre-C stuff is still in continuity as long as another story doesn't contradict it (which is a bit screwy, IMO) and then there's the fact that post-Crisis Superman has been given another new origin that invalidates most of the early post crisis stories and makes it possible that some characters don't even exist.


You know, until a few years ago it wasn't like Jean had really died all that often. She died and was quickly reborn to kick off the Phoenix saga (which doesn't really count, IMO, since it's basically a 2nd origin story), and then she died at the end of the Phoenix saga. And then she was brought back and managed to stay alive until Morrison came along on New X-Men a couple of years ago and killing Jean came back into vogue.

Unless I'm blanking on a bunch of deaths she'd only died twice until the Xornito storyline.

Gwen Stacy, end of story.


Yeah Crisis has really gotten cocked up. The Earth-1 & 2 set up was workable, they should have done Earth 2-the quickening.

Crisis the series was so good, Luthor and Brainiac getting every villian together was one of the best battles ever.

The problem with the Post-Crisis DCU is that it wasn't "streamlined and realistic" right out of the gate.

You had, for instance, the old Earth-1 Superman still around for almost a year before Byrne's Man of Steel reboot.

You had a Wonder Girl whose origin was suddenly invalidated by the lack of a Wonder Woman to be the little sister to.

You had Power Girl running around with an invalid origin due to there being no more Earth-2.

You had the pre-Crisis Hawkman running around for several more years until Hawkworld came along and rebooted him and made a mess of the Justice League's history.

You had pre-Crisis heroes who survived the rebooting of the entire universe in issue 11 and who died in issue 12 suddenly not ever having existed once Crisis was over, despite the fact that all the heroes in issue 12 should have remembered them.

etc...

Basically, it all boiled down to TPTB at DC having only the faintest idea about what they wanted to do post-Crisis. All the confusion and things like Zero Hour could have been avoided if they had just planned the resulting single universe beforehand. Luckily, it sounds like they've finally learned that lesson (only took 'em twenty years!) and whatever changes will come from Infinite Crisis have been planned in advance, so everything should be a lot smoother after this one.

From my own experience, if you were just getting into comics in, say, 1986 (while Crisis was going on), the DC Universe was completely impervious to casual scrutiny. I remember being in the store, thumbing few a couple of things and being lost, and then looking at a Who's Who in the DC Universe and reading all this, "Earth-1", "Earth-2" "Earth-S" "Earth-Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot" and started to feel bloody dripping out my ears, and so I put it all down, and went over to the Marvel side of the store. (Where I promptly got into the New Universe, which had absolutely no baggage at all, and thus I became one of nine people on the planet who was a fan of that line.)

I loved the New Universe. Particularly Spitfire and Star Brand. I would love for them to revisit it at some point, especially since I guess they eventually dragged a few of the characters into the MU.

DP7!!!

The thing that i alway prefered from marvel that I never got from DC was that DC didn't have a sense of contiuity to it. Outside of the orgin storys nothing seemed to lead anywhere for DC characters. Just too many imaginary stories for Superman. With marvel it was a continuous march. If the Avengers fought someone you know it could have ramifications in the future.

DP7 was the best of the New Universe titles. The rest I didn't much care for, though PsiForce was okay for a while.

The Jean Grey storyline was a large part of why I stopped reading Marvel. The constant, she's dead-no, she's not! business with multiple characters, alternate futures that get wiped out, the numbers of times Franklin alone has been screwed over, eh. Alicia throws over Ben for Johnny, but wait it's really a Skrill and Alicia's been on ice for four years. I found that one highly disturbing, thinking about Johnny being married all that time to an imposter. Sure, Marvel deals with more real world issues like politics and ethics and superheroes having to pay the rent, but I got tired of their bait-and-switch method of rebooting.

Makes me wonder why Marvel and DC even bother killing off characters, if they're just going to be "resurrected" again and again. Just wait another five to fifteen years and that character---beloved or not---will make their return in a "senses shattering" new book or cross-title mega-arc. Coincidentally enough, these things always happen whenever a new creative team comes aboard or there's some editorial shake-up.

I'm with you on that one. Just ridiculous.

I think that's a little extreme. Done correctly, resurrections should be one of the great things about comics. What's the point of fantasy if we're going to abide by the same rules we do in real life? Colossus was killed in a story that had holes the size of Galactus, so I was ecstatic when he returned. That being said, the problem is that deaths and resurrections are being used purely for shock value. There are plenty of ways to tell engaging, emotional stories without killing characters (are you reading this, writers of Infinite Crisis?).

Even characters like Bucky, Captain Marvel (Mar-vell), Barry Allen, and Cypher who've stayed dead have had similar characters follow them.

I just recently re-read my old Starbrands, and man-- Ken Connell? is such a dick. Puts Superman-is-a-dick to shame, and that's even putting "Whoops, I blew up Pittsburgh" to the side. Clark was never dating Lois and keeping Lana as his sex-on-the-side, and then when Lana gets pregnant said, "Man, too bad. What are you gonna tell the father, cuz it's not me."

DP7 was hands-down the best of those.

I really liked the first issue of Infinite Crisis, even though I didn't read any of the minis leading up to it. I just read the recaps on the DC site.

What is possibly going to happen? I mean, with all those people "coming back" from the Originial Crisis, what's the point? Why undo something 20 years after it was put into motion.

Wouldn't bringing back those who remember the multiverse bring about a whole mess of problems like they had back in the 80s that justified the Original Crisis?

I don't think they're going to "undo" the original Crisis. I don't think the Multiverse is coming back. Whatever is planned, I think it will be connected to, but not a reversal of, CoIE.

Maybe the JLU writers could do a Crisis spoof, considering all the parallel universes that have been introduced so far. You have the Justice Lords universe, the Justice Guild universe, the universe where Luthor and Superman were allies (back in S:TAS). Am I missing any?

I'd change that "even though" to a "because." Heh. "Villains United" was good, but everything else was crap.

I also don't think the Multiverse is coming back. The most I could see is a new Earth-2, but even that's a stretch.

You know, I'd love another episode dealing with the Justice Guild. That was my favorite early story by far.

I don't even think a new Earth-2 is coming back. The multiverse characters who have returned are all the ones that Alexander Luthor placed in a pocket "paradise" at the very end of CoIE #12. Earth-Prime Superboy, Earth-2 Supes and Lois... I haven't read IC #1 yet, but reading DC's "Crisis Counselling" column on their Web site, I'd bet these will be the only pre-CoIE characters to come back (and how annoying is it that we can no longer simply say pre- and post-Crisis, because now we have to specify which one?).

Pariah and Lady "wasn't I dead?" Qwark have also reappeared. Of course, DC compensated by killing more characters left and right (including one that's been around for 65 years). Sigh.

The phrases "pre-Crisis" and "post-Crisis" should be safe. We can use "pre-IC" and "post-IC" (and just pretend "Identity Crisis" never existed).

We can still say "pre-Crisis" and "post-Crisis" and just start saying "pre-Infinite" and "post-Infinite", but no matter what you call it, "post-Crisis and pre-Infinite" are the same time period.

Hee hee hee.

And Pariah was apparently killed off in the final issue of Villains United.

Good riddance.

I was trying not to spoil it for someone. Oh well.

The only character from CoIE I would have liked to see return was Harbinger, and fucking Jeph Loeb killed her off without any fanfare in Superman/Batman. Still, DC has somewhat made up for this by turning Donna Troy into the new Harbinger.

Then again, Pariah was flat-out immortal when he debuted and never lost it on-panel, so maybe he just has a really bad head-ouchie.

Oh, sorry. But considering that the end of IC #1 has been emblazoned across the posts here, I didn't realize we were tagging already-published issues. I figured the policy was like tv eps, where once it's aired tags aren't required. If that's not the case, what are the guidelines for comics?

So, I've started Crisis on Infinite Earths. So far I'm enjoying it and getting it for the most part. Although I do have to say that after reading many contemporary comics where they often use 1st person narration, I find the clouds of internal monologue distracting and somewhat cheesy. Damn, Superman (both incarnations) is annoying!

Anyway, I have a question. Are Pariah, the Monitor and the Harbinger all original characters created for Crisis or did they exist before?

So, what's been happening in the show lately? I haven't seen any of the new eps yet.

They were all three created especially for the Crisis. The Monitor (and IIRC, Harbinger too, though maybe just as Lyla) began appearing in various titles several months before CoIE launched, as a shadowy, behind-the-scenes guy who appeared to be a villain supplying other villains with weaponry and such (to test the heroes). There's a brief reference to this in one of the early issues of CoIE. Oddly, I believe the very first time we ever see him out of the shadows is in an issue of G.I. Combat, of all things.

Grodd and Luthor formed a Legion of Doom, which you can see profiled in part here. Grodd sent Legion members on a few missions, each of which was foiled by some collection of League members. The League is starting to catch on that they're facing organized resistance, but every time the catch a Legion member, the bad guy gets brain wiped.

Following in the tradition of Amy Acker, Gina Torres, and Adam Baldwin, Alexis Denisof is the latest Whedonverse actor signed on for the cartoon Justice League Unlimited to be the voice of Flash villain the Mirror Master, most likely the Scottish one.

...provided we ever see another episode, of course.

According to TV.com, the next new episode is November 12, the Saturday after next.

Sorry, this has been bugging me, but Luthor is not involved w/the forming of the Legion of Doom, it's all Grodd's handiwork, Luthor is just another hired on help for his own personal reasons. Grodd formed the Legion while Luthor was rotting away in prison for the Braniac debacle. Just wanted to clear that up.

I hope TV.com is wrong in their scheduling. It says Flash and Substance airs on 11/12, but the next episode won't air until January!

In addition to the people DMike already listed, the actors from the 3 Mutant Enemy shows that have also appeared on JL include Nathan Fillion, Morena Baccarin, Juliet Landau and Armin Shimerman. Also, Giselle Loren, who voiced Buffy in the 2 Buffy the Vampire Slayer video games, provided the voice for Stargirl. And I've seen it rumored in the Toon Zone forums that Daniel Dae Kim, who played the lawyer Gavin Park on Angel, is going to do some voicework for Justice League this season as well, though nobody knew who he'd be playing.

All in all, it seems to go without saying that the people behind JL are fans of Joss Whedon's shows.

Hmm, according to TV.com and Toonzone, there'll be no new episodes at least until January. So I hope everyone likes Teen Titans and anime, cuz that's all we'll be getting on Toonami for a while.

So to tied myself over, I picked up Infinite Crisis #1. Thought it was interesting, but I have a few questions. For how long has Batman been an insufferable prick in the comics? I'm not a regular Bat-reader, but from what I remember in the early 90s, he was dark and moody but still tolerable around others. When did he become an asshole? Also, when did Superman become such a pussy?

Superman's been on a slow but steady emasculation since he came back to life back in the early 90s. It became more noticeable once he married Lois and became the family man, but I think the biggest contributing factor was the time he was possessed/influenced into building an army of Superman robots and taking over the world. I think his pussification comes from his fear of abusing power like he did during that story, but Batman's "the last time you really inspired anyone was when you were dead" line from the issue you read could also be true too.

Batman's prickishness has been building up since at least No Man's Land back in 1999, when he couldn't even bother to tell his sidekicks & associates when he was going to do anything and intentionally kept the Justice League and other superheroes out of Gotham (including Alan Scott, who's been living in Gotham decades before Batman was even born). Then there was the incident last year where he manipulates the current Robin Tim Drake's girlfriend Stephanie into becoming the fourth Robin, tells her she's basically incompetent, fires her, and keeps so many secrets from her (even when she was her sidekick) that her attempt to use his protocol to flush out the gangs in Gotham gets her killed and he still blames her for it because she went through his computer.

BTW, Issue #2 comes out on Wednesday, monsterzero, in case you were still interested.

I don't see this so-called "pussification" of Superman people keep talking about. The only thing that has changed in recent years is the DCVerse has become a bit darker and grittier, but Superman hasn't changed. But that's the nature of his character.

Superman can't go ballistic on most of his enemies otherwise he'd kill them. He can't afford to lose control of himself. He could easily destroy a city and kill thousands and millions of people if he isn't careful with his powers. Most of his enemies know this and hamstring Superman by putting innocent lives in danger.

One of the ongoing problems Superman has is when to do enough, but not do too much. If he tries to solve every problem, people will become too dependent on him and expect him to fix everything. If he doesn't do enough, he can't inspire people to be "super heroes" too.

Superman writers have had Superman reflect about this dilemma in the comics, but a lot of readers have complained that it makes Superman look like he's whining.

"He's Superman! He should know what to do! He shouldn't have to think about it!"

I personally don't agree with that point of view. I don't like the idea of an All-Knowing Superman. I prefer having him be more mortal. I would be bored by a character that was perfect in every way and doesn't have any problems. He's SuperMan, not SuperGod.

As for Batman, it's been implied that the mind-tampering that was done to him is partly responsible for his increased paranoia and overall dickish behavior. Writer Mark Waid has said that after Infinite Crisis is over, that will be "fixed".

Is there a site somewhere with decent screencaps? Or at least, screencaps from lots of episodes? I can only seem to find some really bad shots from a couple of episodes.

A website called wf.toonzone.net has screencaps from nearly every DCAU cartoon, though I don't know how high quality you're looking for.

And I understand what Zerowing is saying about Superman being fallible and human, but I was bothered by the fact that he seemed incapable of defending himself against Batman's verbal abuse (not to give too much away for those who haven't read it). I don't want a Superman who'll fly off the handle and smackdown Batman, but I would like a hero who's at least confidant enough to not take someone's shit.

I think what writer Geoff Johns was conveying in that scene was Superman didn't shoot back at Batman because he made a valid point.

And there's been already a Justice League issue where Superman goes off on Batman about his paranoia, but Batman doesn't really respond. And the fact that Superman nearly killed Batman while he was under Max Lord's mental domination I think has made Superman slightly less inclined to verbally attack Batman.

Question: I read that Michael Rosenbaum would be doing the voice of Kid Flash in an ep of Teen Titans. I've ready a lot of different articles stating that TT is a different continuity from JLU, but by doing this, are the producers now implying it isn't?

Zerowing - do you happen to remember which issue that's from? Just curious.