Barbara Gordon was turned into a cripple because AT THAT TIME the chracter of Batgirl was a joke. There really isn't a single good batgirl story pre-87,writers always have a problem trying to shape her character.. she's too often written as a female robin.

This brings up my central point... the first time Barbara Gordon's batgirl worked was in BTAS. Batgirl works best as a secondary character, either to Robin or Batman. When it's all three of them she gets shoved to the background and her character becomes pointless. That's why she works so well in Gotham Knights... with Jason Todd erased from time they still needed a partner for Bats... hence Batgirl finally took prominence as his partner. Add in all the good dramatic context in Old Wounds with the romantic angle put to BOTH Dick and Bruce, and it's a hell of a retelling that actually works.

While I regret not having Oracle in the DCAU, there's really no need for her. Oracle and her BoP team is a great read month after month, and it's the best of both worlds. Barbara Gordon's batgirl gets her time in the spotlight in both the DCAU and comic flashbacks such as Batgirl: Year One by Chuck Dixon.

Plus, the new Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) is an awesome, awesome character. If DC ever takes Bruce off the throne for awhile, expect Cassandra to take up the mantle, she's THAT good.

Squadron Supreme was always Marvel's way of exploring DC characters. The 85-86 miniseries is quite good and beats out the darkness revisionism of the late 80's early 90's

Supremes is based on SS and is also worth a look.

Well, I meant a universe (any universe) apart from DC. However, I'd forgotten Moore invented a kind of through the looking glass world of our own.

Yep, Distant, you're right I need to finish Watchmen asap... Hopefully I'll get to it this weekend.

eta: thanks for the rec Vercingetorix, I'll definitely check that out.

I enjoyed it. Good read.

Kingdom Come is one of my favorite stories, of any medium, ever. I love it when pop culture and serious questions of faith collide. I keep telling people that my favorite comic book characters are Batman and Superman, but I think in my heart of hearts, it's really Rev. Norman McCay.

I would pay good money, do whatever was necessary, kill whomever I needed to (okay not really) to see that story animated.

I like gritty unrealism. Mmmm, Hitman.

First off, thank you.
This was easy to understand..

.

But then it got confusing, with this...



And to make my brain completely shut down was this...


But it at least answer the biggest question of all: why did the DCU guys think that Monarch should be Hawk as a backup after the real Monarch was released, considering that Hawk would have therefore killed his own brother.
Answer: it wasn't his brother, and Schroeder was unaware that Dove II/III/Mother of Someone's Else's Grandchild is who was killed.
But she really wasn't.

So thanks for clearing that up.

Seriously, I thought the DC writers had actually agreed that it was a good idea to have Hawk kill his own brother Dove, and expect us to buy it.

No, not at all. If that were Dick, you'd have a point. In the realm of female DC characters, Batgirl was as important as anyone outside of Wonder Woman (and the only character who could possible be considered her equal was killed outright in Crisis). A better comparison would be what happened to Bruce in Knightfall, but (of course) he got better (as we knew he would).


I'll say! I love SS. I also agree about Kingdom Come being required reading.

But Bruce was not given the option of evolving into a new and better hero. Oracle is more powerful and independant and functional than Batgirl was.

With his resources, Bruce could have done whatever he wanted. Choosing to "retire" and leave the mantle to another was the option he took, until events conspired to return him to full health. But I'm sure had he wanted to follow Babs' example, he certainly could have.

Unless, by "given the option" you mean "given the option by the editorial staff", in which case you're right, they really never brought it up that way.

Point taken. OTOH, he can walk.


No, that would've been beyond ridiculous. Don died in the Crisis (and he's still dead). We just discovered that Dawn is still alive in the last couple of years.

The question becomes is it better for a character to return, after a time in a particular arc, to the status quo, or to continue to shift and evolve?

I don't like changing character's personalities, and I don't like scrapping or gutting good characters (I still love you, Beetle!) but some permanent change gives the story more authenticity than a Death of Superman arc ever could.

There are other chicks in DC who DID get ripped off, big time, but I always saw Barbara Gordon becoming Oracle as a success.

I agree. Over in Marvel-land, Professor X is in a wheelchair (most of the time), and he's still one of the most powerful heroes on the planet.

However, Barbara becoming Oracle was something that happened later. in The Killing Joke itself, all you have is her getting crippled. This is a case where later writers took what they'd been given by Alan Moore and made it work. It doesn't (for me, anyway) take away from the fact that Moore had her get shot in the spine on his way to his story.

Come to think of it, there's no reason the Batman Beyond Barbara "Commissioner" Gordon couldn't have been Oracle at some point in the past.

That, I agree with wholeheartedly. I much prefer "Barbara Gordon as Oracle, a kickass hacker in a wheelchair" to the alternative, which would probably have been "Barbara Gordon got shot in the spine, but recovered somehow and now Batgirl is exactly the way she's always been."

Oh, so that's what was going on in that issue of Teen Titans where they fight Dr. Light in the museum.
I just started buying, and I picked up they were sisters, and I was like, "What? They don't know each other?"

It should be pointed out that Moore never intended for Babs to stay crippled, he assumed that someone would come along after him and heal her.

Also, at the time, DC was trying to distance itself from the pre-crisis "silliness". Having a Batgirl and a Robin running around with Batman sort of hurt Batman's position as a cool loner.

They also wiped out most of Superman's "silly" elements like Superboy in Smallville, Krypto the Superdog, and the bottle city of Kandor.

This, of course, is one of Bruce's personality flaws. In the DCAU Bruce could have served as an advisor long after he was no longer capable of actually going out there as Batman. Instead, he just retired to his mansion and brooded for 20 years until Terry came along and forced the issue. Since Bruce is supposed to be the cleverest hero around, that's a major advantage that was lost to the future heroes.



That's not a bad assumption, since even being blown to pieces (Green Arrow) isn't irreversible.

This is what I hate about comics, is that no one ever stays dead, and no matter how big or daring a change they make, it's never permanent. Even if it's meant to be permanent at the time they make it.

To be fair, this is hardly unique to comics. It happens in novels, TV shows, movies, you name it.

Going all the way to Sherlock Holmes at Reichenbach Falls, and maybe even before that.

I think you're being too harsh. It's both a blessing and a curse. Scott Lobdell killed my favorite X-Man (Colossus) in a completely melodramatic, inane story. Needless to say, I was ecstatic when Joss Whedon brought him back. OTOH, I still can't believe someone thought it would be a good idea to resurrect Jason Todd. That's wrong on every level possible.

Seriously. A bunch of people are owned their 50 cents back.

I wanted to point out that Squadron Supreme predated Watchmen by a couple years. And furthermore, the current Supreme Power (the modernized version of SS)? KICKS ASS.

Put me in the "Jason Todd's resurrection is stupid" camp. Which is odd for me, since normally I don't care when characters get resurrected. What bothers me even more is that this is the best the writers could think up to make the Bat-titles interesting again.

On topic: "Fury" from JL is on CN tonight at 2 am.

I can buy the transformation from Batgirl to the Beyond Commissioner Gordon, but not from Batgirl to Oracle to Commissioner.

DC created a seperate imprint, Vertigo, for their more mature stories, which include grittiness, sex and violence. I read the first couple of volumes of Fables and loved it. It's for adults, but not in the purient sense. But I'm not going to get back into buying monthly comics again.

I can't help thinking that with all the magic, mystesism, lost civilizations and alien technology floating around in the DCU there's no way to reverse paralysis. A few decades down the line Barbara might be cured.

How do they explain Nightwing's name now then? The original Nightwing came about when Superman and Jimmy Olsen would visit Kandor and run around as the masked heroes Redbird and Nightwing. Supes couldn't stop being a Boy Scout even without his powers. I'm pretty sure Dick got the name from them.

Here's a link to comicscontinuum in which Bruce Timm talks about Supergirl's new costume plus some details about the episode from fellow TWOP poster Dwayne McDuffie. Could be spoilerish.

Another reason to check out Squad Supe. Since they're only occasionaly used in the Marvel Universe and an alternate Universe, someone dies and it's for "real". It's also in the good-n-cheap category. Predating Watchmen et al it's also not as self concously dark.

Another good one on the subject is Strikeforce Morituri. It's about people who go through a process to get superpowers to fight alien invaders, the caveat is it kills them within a year.

Watched Fury, some lez-yay going on there, and a nod to Golden Age WW's bondage themes.

Back to the Themascara discussion, I think it's safe to say it's unknown to the outside world because (insert LPGA, Indigo Girls, or Xena joke here).

So when did Jason Todd return? How hard was it to kick his ass? Seriously, could someone update me?



And they subsequently set about undoing everything that John Byrne did in the Superman titles, resurrecting every lame villian and sidekick he ever had.



Actually it was Nightwing and Flamebird. There's a female Flamebird running around the Teen Titans titles who has a crush on Nightwing, but I don't know what her story is. Will someone please tell me that they haven't resurrected the Bottle City of Kandor (which technically should be the Bottled City of Kandor)??

You're correct about the original origin. IIRC, now Dick got it from a story Superman told him (or something like that).

That's Bette Kane. She was originally Bat-Girl (preceding Batgirl) way back in the '60s Bat-family days, which are thought to be a response to allegations that Bruce and Dick were gay. After Crisis, the Batwoman and Bat-Girl were retconned away, so Bette became Flamebird instead.

Edit: Oops, didn't meant to double post. Wonder Twin powers, deactivate!

IIRC, Oracle was just one of the many awesome things that John Ostrander did with other people's throw-away characters and plotlines in Suicide Squad.

Another nice Suicide Squad reinvention was when after Grant Morrison wrote a sequence in which he, Grant Morrison, meets Animal Man and apologizes for all the mean things he did to Buddy over his run. A little while later, Ostrander put Morrison into the Suicide Squad as a member ("I wrote myself into continuity, and now I can't get out!"), then killed him when an attack of writer's block prevented him from defending himself.

I think it's a great idea. It's ripe of storytelling and angst and possibilites for years to come.

Hooray for Gamera! (Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

I guess the cosplayers didn't get the memo on Supergirl's new look.

"So what! My stepdad's a meccha!"

"Metro Tower"? Did I hear GL right?

The look of this ep reminded me of He-Man, for some reason, and I haven't seen that show in years.

"You have none of your cousin's strength."
"But I've got brains."

Oh, Kara, you're not saying Superman's an idiot, are you?

This must be the beginning of the season-long arc.

Is Stargirl a few years younger than Supergirl? Supergirl's around 20 now, right? Stargirl's cattiness and jealousy remind me of a teenager; young women who are older, if they ARE jealous of other girls, don't openly state it. If Stargirl ISN'T a teenager, Pat really needs to let go of the reins.

Stargirl's pretty young; I'm thinking "teens" here. She always acted pretty bratty, so her 'toon behavior is par for the course.

The Stargirl/GL/Supergirl eppy was meh. I found the annoyingness from Stargirl to be too distracting. She basically tortures Supergirl by waiting to take out the badguys tailing her, and she doesn't catch any flack? Pettiness is all well and good when you're on the playground, but nothing Stargirl did subsequently (in the telegraphed save) redeemed her in my eyes. S.T.R.I.P.E.S. (?) was given nothing to do character-wise besides beat up some badguys, and really could have been left out entirely. This episode was 22 minutes of set-up for the JL to realize there's something big going on.

The story setup for the following episode had me rolling my eyes.

WW's transformation was cheesetastic, but I liked that for a second, it looked as if she was going to hook the umbrella on her elbow.

So, J'onn's gone for a while? I don't know how I feel about that, since he was just directing traffic anyway. It seemed like he was underused the last two seasons. I'm sure he'll turn up again just when he's needed, and a lot more earthly-wise.

Another setup episode. I don't know the DC universe as a lot of you who hang around this thread. What villain could be shorting people out before they give up information?

"And Black Canary said a buzz saw arrow was self-indulgent."

I agree about the meh-ness of the first one; I will enjoy it for showing Supergirl as a real heroine. Stargirl was fun at the end. But, mostly filler.

I liked the second one -- the Wonder Woman one -- a lot. And hey, that was Luke (from GG)! I found myself hoping that Joss' WW movie is at least as good.

I'm so easy to please.

I really liked both eps. The first ep had me screaming Gamera! Helms Deep! Errol Flynn! at the screen at any given time. Plus it was pretty damn violent for a "kids" show, always gets a plus in my book.

The second ep was also pretty fun, with lots of Legion of Doom goodness. Liked the character development on both Diana and Jonn. But a couple questions: Who was the guy with the poison darts? What's the name of the white-haired agent guy? (I missed both their names) Are they setting him up as a possible love interest for Diana, like a Steve Trevor type, or was that some harmless flirting? Overall I'm loving this season.

Was anybody else singing? "Gamera, he's really neat! Gamera, he's filled with meat! We believe in Gamera!"

For anybody not into comics...Stargirl was a bit of a bitch to start out, but she grew into the heroine role. But yeah, she was a total witch tonight. Couldn't she have braces? I did feel bad about her getting kicked in the shin.

Come to think of it, maybe Courtney was justisfied. I mean, Kara probably swapped costumes to be more associated with her "cousin." Who could blame Stargirl from getting bitter? I liked the figure skater outfit more.

Wow...looks like Shakira went through La Tortura. Just me? Okay, then.



And then a guy fell on Ollie. Nice timing.

Mr. Terrific...I don't mind the name that much...but why the "T" directly on the face? That's been bugging me for years.

I'm giving J'onn 8-1 odds that he'll wind up going undercover as a Legion flunkee.

Are we doing the one episode next week? I'm oddly thrilled at the prospect of Flash's Rogue's Gallery coming on soon.

Pardon me....this is my 1st time posting on this thread, but I have a frivolous question:


Scott Patterson? What character did he voice? I didn't know he did voice acting. Go, Scott!

That was Devil Ray, aka Blank Manta, with the small barbs. I don't know why they'd change his name.

I thought WW's transformation was perfect. A nod to the past. It was great.

And I loved seeing Flash's Rogue Gallery in the ending credits. I was trying hard to name as many as I could.

I did not like the look of this Killer Frost. She looked too much like Live Wire, really. She needed to be more white than Blue/Black.

For a minute, I thought that Mr. Terrific would be in the background, with no recognition (like a lot of the others at the end during the Viking funeral), but then Diana calls to him by name. And then he talks!

What? No one's gonna mention Flash hugging J'Onn?

I liked both episodes. It was cool seeing Morgan and Skartaris! The snarkiness between Supergirl and Stargirl was amusing too. But I'm glad Stargirl got over herself eventually.

And in case you were wondering, Supergirl lost her powers because the sunlight in Skartaris is different than Earth's sun.

The second episode was even better. Glad to see Black Manta back, or is his name Manta Ray now? I haven't been keeping up with all of Aquaman's foes.

I always like how the writers manage to work in some of DC's Golden and Silver Age heroes into the stories like the Viking Prince.

One thing though, why the hell were all the ambassadors and dignitaries still inside building when they all knew there was a threat of an avalanche?? Why the hell didn't security evacuate everybody while the battle was going on down below?? (More slow response by the Bush Administration?)

And now I'm going to have some fantasies about 50 foot Giganta chasing me. (Thank god they made her hot now)

Scott Patterson does Agent Faraday, according to Toonzone.

Agent King(?) Faraday.

I didn't recognize his voice, but I recognized his name in the credits.

Oh, I thought he said "Ken Faraday".


I wasn't. But thank you for explaining that. I mean, she's immune to Kryptonite anyway, right? But I always hate Center of the Planet stories anyway. I mean, where do they get their light? And their wind? And their rain? It just can't happen, people.


I'm pretty sure Gorrilla Grodd called him "Devil Ray." Although I'm not sure why the slight name change.

I have a feeling they worried about using the "Black Manta" name would seem like too much of a throwback to the days of "identify ethnic heroes by their codenames" a la Black Vulcan. "Devil Ray" does kind of make more sense for a villain's name as is, and avoids any potential moral outrage from those not familiar with the character's history.

In other words, PC strikes again, but enh, it happens.

I like watching Justice League, it gives me a glimpse into the DC universe. It's a pretty groovy place and just getting a glimpse is so much fun because it all comes off as pretty weird. Talking gorillas, man. Talking gorillas.

I liked both episodes, but I have some questions. First, is the DC earth really hollow, or does that hole actually lead to a another dimension or something? I don't know why I can suspend my disbelief for robot dinosaurs and faster then light travel but a hollow earth just rubs me the wrong way. Second, did it bother anyone else that the viking ship seemed to light on fire as it neared the sun? Doesn't there need to be oxygen for that to happen?

I assumed she had lesser powers because of the lack of a yellow sun. I was okay with them never explaining it -- although I was curious how she seemed to have varying strength.

How is Kara immune to kryptonite? Oh, let me expand on that a bit -- on a discussion over on UseNET, I found out that Kara isn't really Kryptonian, but from a nearby star. Something like that. So I immediately concluded that she should not be affected by kryptonite, but I never really got an answer to that. So... is she? It would seem that she is partially affected by it, anyway?


It's magic, of course.

True dat. Good deduction skills.

She's from Argos, which is another planet. Sister planet to Krypton. (and I'm going on pre-Crisis learnings, because I didn't even know what Crisis was until last year in this thread, and it's possible her planet's name/status as a moon to Krypton could have changed, but the general gyst is below).

So, it's not exactly the same planet, therefore it's not exactly Kryptonite that makes up her former planet. It's probably something called Argonite, or something. But it's close enough. Like Earth/Mars, or something. The planets are similar enough, but they're not the same planet. Therefore, Kryptonite affects her differently than it does Superman, who is an actual Kryptonian. I'm sure that if some Argonite made its way here, it's do to Supergirl what Kryptonite does to Superman, and it would do to Superman what Kryptonite does to Supergirl.

Get what I'm saying?

(Does that mean she's an Argonot? Argonian?)


Well, then. I'll shut up. I've always wanted to be a magical DC creature. I mean, magic kicks even Superman's ass.


I think it's a pocket city. With the sunlight coming in through the ice, which is a cover over the land. It's not exactly and entirely hollow Earth, just has a great big ice-covered crater.

Actually, she was affected by kryptonite in The Return, when she followed Luthor into his secret tunnel lined with the stuff. I think they were suggesting that when kryptonians lose their powers due to red sunlight, kryptonite affects them less severely. It doesn't make much sense IMO, but that's the best I can figure from what they said.

You call it "PC," in my day we called it "manners" but either way it's moot. We changed Black Manta to Devil Ray and removed Aquaman from this script because the rights to Aquaman were no longer available. I think he's doing a movie with Mandy Moore.

Supergirl is from Argos but on our show she's always been just as vulnerable to Kryptonite as Superman.

Earth isn't hollow, Skartaris is in a pocket dimension, illustrated by both Green Lantern's ring insisting they were still at the North Pole and by the glowy dimensional interface the ship passed through (GL buried it at the end).

I don't mind the change, but I always thought he was called Blank manta because Devil Rays are black. I never thought it was racial, at least, not in the way that Black Vulcan/Lighting sure as hell was. So, I'm not too sure how not calling him "Black" Manta is "manners", unless the Big Unspoken Truth out there is that he really is African-American. Which, I guess by your response, saying it's manners not to call him that, explicitly means that he's African-American. I mean, all kinds of super heros/villians have colors in their names, and I never think it has anything to do with their race. But by Dwayne's remark that it was manners and not PC (a term I hate myself) that suggests to me that Devil Ray is African-American, and it would be considered rude to treat him to the '80s affirmative action/forced diversity intent of the original show.


And Aquaman wasn't available? I used to love him. Sad we won't get to see him. Are you serious about him making the movie? Because I've heard they're trying to do one. I thought it was Marky Mark whom I've heard in the title role. Of course, this was on Ain't It Cool, so I'm not too sure.


So, if Supergirl is just as vulnerable to Kryptonite as Superman, why didn't it affect her as much, like Metallo pointed out?


And I'm watching at work. I'm posting at work, actually. So I missed the first 10 minutes and got there at the end. I just guessed it was pocket city, because Hollow Earth makes me go... err.



Well, they could have been under the North Pole, too.

---
I for one am really, really, REALLY liking the new Doom Squad, or Legion of Doofuses. I'm a big fan of throw-back, remembering where we came from.

I like seeing Grodd in charge, because it shows that, while the creators are going back to pre-written ideas, they're chaging them up a bit, making it new.

The only thing I wish there was was a role call. I'm having trouble figuring out who everyone is. But that's just 'cause I'm not a DC geek; just a fan boy.

I hypothisize that there isn't a creature shorting out the bad people's brains. It's Lex Luthor somehow, with a Fail Safe or something to keep the goons from revealing too much.

Whoah! The script author? Neat! Anyway.



Not conclusive as shown, I'm afraid. That was my first thought, but then I realized that if they were actually inside the earth, they could still be "north pole-ish" enough to confuse GL's ring.

I've only caught two episodes of Entourage, and yet I still thought of that. (And Diana being all princess-y gives me hope for an Aquaman show -- I mean, he is a king.)


Yeah, but then you get to deal with the likes of Fate (Dr Fate? whatever :)), and worry about the various gods directly intervening, as they are wont to do.

Of course, that leads to the whole discussion about Superman being a demigod.


Over on the show Entourage, the character with the entourage is signed up to star as Aquaman in the James Cameron version of the movie. The costar is set to be Mandy Moore. I assume that's what he was referring to. It's funny :).