It was appropriate for a young Supergirl, but it's been roughly five years since she made her first appearence to I think it's time for a better costume.

That being said, I think that most of the female JLU members need to remake their costumes. Most aren't bulletproof, flameproof, or bad stuff-proof so it's not a very good idea to expose as much skin as possible. They've never shown it, but I don't think the animated WW could actually take a bullet much better than a normal person. Otherwise, why risk having all of those bullets bouncing around?

Oh no Daisy I'm most certainly in the minority. It's just my (usually uncharacteristic) inner prude reacting to the blatant sexualization of a teenager - one, imo, that has been protrayed as a somewhat youngish, naive and innocent teenager. I like the character and, for the most part, the portrayal of her but I just have a problem with the visual element. But then again, these female characters aren't necessarily designed with the female audience member in mind...they are meant (for the most part) to please the male fan.

So, if Captain Atom was supposed to be Monarch instead of Hawk, what exactly was Captain Atom's reason for going insane "to years in the future".

And didn't Dove die when a wall fell on him? That's what Starfire says in the first tradeback of the new Teen Titans. Didn't he die in Crisis on Infinite Earths? That's really sad. Why would he want to come back in time to kill his own brother?

And why the hell can't we have a JLU video game like X-Men Legends? It's so unfair.

Dove I was Hank Hall's brother (and the guy from JLU), and he died. (No doubt he tried signing "kumbaya" to the wall.) Dove II was a hot chick whom Hank first resented, as any loose cannon tough guy will when saddled with a new partner, but this resentment eventually matured into hard-won respect and a simmering sexual tension, as it will when a loose cannon tough guy's new partner is a hot chick.

Monarch killed Dove II (i) because that's what it would take to drive his earlier self crazy, (ii) because that's what he did the last time he experienced all that, and (iii) because his plan made no sense. (Particularly the part about stealing the portrait of Millard Filmore).

Hawk II and Dove III are both hot chicks, and sisters, one of whom speaks in an outrageous british accent.

Huntress is vaguely Batmanlike. Non-superpowered investigator with gadgets and serious psychological issues. Zatanna, though we haven't seen her recently, is certainly a mind-over-muscle type. She's not exactly a Leaguer, but last season featured a lot of Amanda Waller, who's an interesting, very smart character.

As a general question, does DC have any female heroes that are known especially for big brains? I mean beyond just being clever or smart in the normal talented human sense.

On the scale of Steel, The Atom, Bats, etc. I'd say Oracle maybe, but I don't know what she's up to nowadays. Does that female Dr. Light ever get to do anything interesting on the science side of things?

I always figured that if ANYBODY was getting a belly-shirt, it might as well be Supergirl, who after all is bulletproof and all that.

And that belly-shirt doesn't seem really over the top sexy. It's not a corset or a bikini or something Fire would wear. It's a silly little tee shirt for a youngish girl. With a good stomach, which she has. I would wear that if I had her figure. (Something I would never say about, uh, Huntress. Bikini and ammo belt with boots and cape? Bitch, please)

I hate all incarnations of Dove.

I think in a recent issue of JSA, or maybe the new Supergirl, they had Kara and Stargirl discuss the reasons for the skimpy outfits: basically to distract male enemies in a fight. Certainly not a great justification for sexualizing teenagers, but who am I to complain.

In regards to Waverider, I actually like what they did with him after the Armageddon 2001 annuals: making him a member of the Linear Men, who I for some reason always enjoyed. Yes, I have fond memories of Zero Hour. Hey, I was easy to please back then, and having three white pages at the end of my monthly titles did the trick for some reason.

Actually, I kind of wish they would have their own Crisis/Zero Hour event in the JLU, just because I'd love to see something like that "done right" in the Timmverse. It would perhaps make a fitting end to the last 13 years; reality getting wiped out and restarted, passing the torch to whatever new DCU toons would pop up after.

Oracle would be the biggest female brain, but there's also Dr. Karen Faulkner of STAR Labs (more of a generic scientist, although she turned into a monster at one point). Dr. Light II is also a generic scientist. Fire, despite being a model and getting saddled with a ditzy personality along the way, started out as a spy in Brazil, as Greg Rucka seems to be the only writer who remembered while writing her in the OMAC Project miniseries. Power Girl runs a big corporation, as did the late Crimson Fox(es), who are still alive in the cartoon.

HA!

You right, it never occured to me before but her costume is super absurd. But she's kind of a nut case, right? So it works. Okay, ummm I'm a hypocrite.



Hee. I'm amused that writers took the time to try and justify their costumes. Well, at least we're all aware of the absurdity...that's something. And hell, I'll take ample revealing boobage over Nightwing's old 70's-riffic trapeze costume any day. Come to think of it, Black Lightening's costume in the latest Green Arrow comic was pretty atrocious too. Note to artist: please redesign, thank you.

Another great interview with Dwayne McDuffie about JLU. No real spoilers involved.

Thanks for the interview.

There is no Dove III. It turns out Dove II wasn't killed by Hank/Hawk, Mordru (the Chaos wizard from the Booster Gold episode) made Hawk beat her into a coma to make him snap. She finally woke up in about 2002/2003, and Hawk II is her (step?)-sister.



She's gotten a new costume within the year that covers pretty much everything. It's ugly too, but more practical.

It would have been a funnier conversation if it was Kara and Carter Hall. (Carter, IMHO, has the most absurdly revealing costume in DC. Only buttless chaps would make his outfit sillier).

If that weren't confusing enough, Hawk and Dove II had a baby who became the host body for the soul of Carter and Shiera Hall's son Hector (the Silver Scarab). The body was aged and he became the latest Dr. Fate. That's six characters merged into one. Gotta love convoluted comics!


I always preferred the original Dove to Hawk (in spite of the hideous baby blue costume). One of the things I really liked about the Hawk & Dove episode was the choice to cast the Wonder Years brothers but essentially switch their roles. That was inspired.


As far as classic characters go, I agree wholeheartedly. There's been a push over the years to show more skin (especially with the women), but he's been fighting crime shirtless forever.

The comments about Supergirl's costume remind me of how DC used her as a dress-up doll in the 70s and kept switching her costume around every few issues. I think they even solicited reader suggestions. I'm recalling leggings with beaded seams and a crop top at one point. I think they were trying to get more girls interested in the character. Good stories would have worked better. I know there was something about a woman who came from a lost civilization who was trying to bring it up from the sea, she had magic or super strength, anyway, she was a challenge, an equal, and not somebody goofy. I remember rereading that issue over and over. The fact it still sticks in my mind around 25 years later attests to the storytelling.

I don't think that the female Dr. Light has ever done anything interesting ...


Ha!

They could always just follow the lead of Marvel's Supreme Power where the Wonder Woman and Aquaman (er ... girl) analogs spend their first several issues completely nude.

You'll find no argument there--I completely agree, on both counts. However, that is not the situation presented on the show.

Here are the facts as I see them. Since Shayera returned to the League, John has made clear that he retains some sort of feelings for her.
These feeling have been far more certain than his expressed feelings for Vixen (as seen in The Once and Future Thing pt. 1). It has been shown that Shayera still has feelings for John and that John knows of this. So, like Batman said: if he wants to be with Shayera, why is he still with Vixen? It's not like he can't break it off whenever he wants. And if he doesn't want to be with Shayera and wants to be with Vixen, then why not get over it? Why not be genuinely happy at the prospect of Shayera getting her groove on? Why did his declaration of happiness in Weird Western Tales feel so forced? Like I said before, it all ends up feeling like a stalling tactic, so as not to have to deal with an actual relationship on the show.

As for the Robotech reference, I don't see how it applies. Rick and Minmei were never more than just good friends, and had already gone their separate ways when Rick began to have feeling with Lisa. Then again, that's for another topic.



You're not alone, Daisy. I always thought that outfit had the right combination of "casual" with "spandex", and managed to be sexy without being too sexy. Plus, as "trendy" as it is, it's still not quite dated, which is quite an achievement. She could do a lot worse, like, say, Wonder Girls current costume *shudder*. However, I also like the classic costume, and I glad to see some version of it animated (althought I would have preffered one with no midriff--cause I'm apparently a hypocrite).

As look would have it, you can see Hawk II, Dove II and Wonder Girl's current costume all one this one cover:

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=4181

IIRC, the guy in the purple is called Kestrel (which is odd, since any kestrel would have it's feathery ass handed to it by a hawk. Yet, in the comics: not so much.)

And that's why he's got Dove at his mercy while Hawk is ready to kick his ass from behind.

Just imagine if most of the evil-doers in the DCAU were female. All of the guys would be running around with their logos tattooed on their chests. They'd also dump the tights and just run around in their colorful fruit of the loom undies, which, as has been shown on many occassions, is made of the strongest material in the universe.

Ugh. That's not luck. That's Liefield.

Actually, Kestrel is holding Hawk by her throat. It's hard to tell because Liefield can't draw profiles or 3/4 profiles, and therefore has to have Kestrel holding Hawk behind his own back so that they can both be facing forward.

That was actually a funny issue. Robin's strategic plan before that fight was basically: "Kestrel is a magical being of almost unlimited power, like the Spectre. His abilities are limitless and there's no telling what he might do! Ok, Titans, get him!"

Here's a picture of Wonder Girl by a better artist then:

http://www.bigtimecomics.com/images/Trade%...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN

It's not a bad costume until you remember she's about 14-15. Still, could be worse -- she could be Starfire in her too small bikini.

I remember those outfits from back in the 80's. Good times.

Actually, Kestrel is elbowing Hawk in the throat.

And Liefeld on those two issues of Teen Titans isn't all bad; my comic spending for two months is $5 less!



I think I saw Rampage in that shot of the entire LoD. I'll have to check my screencaps later, but I think she was on the far right. There's a big orange woman over there, at any rate.

I've always been a big fan of Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman, and the JLU version is my favorite of all of them... so I guess I can relate to Carter Hall's stalkerishness here.... :)

I like the way his apparent delusion is explained. To Shayera, absorbacrons are familiar, rather mundane, technology. So Carter's story makes no frickin' sense whatsoever from her perspective. It'd be like someone unfamiliar with our technology saying "Your 'DVD Machine' sent me visions last night, and I now know that my true destiny is to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father!" Nah. Much more likely he was just confused by the absorbacron, and/or human brains have trouble dealing with their outputs.

But there's enough room for doubt, too - *can* humans use absorbacrons generally? Probably an untested hypothesis. And there might be other stuff at work, too, is my guess - namely, "Egyptian Magic." Which factored into the comics story, as Dr. Fate and Captain Marvel's origins are also linked to ancient Egypt. From a science/technology point of view, Carter's story is ridiculous, but throw magic into the mix, and who knows?

Too bad all those artifacts are lost, buried forever. After all, it's not like they know any people who could move tons of earth out of the way with the power of their mind. Or who can see through solid matter to locate objects. Or who can turn themselves into sand and just move through it as if it were air.... ;)

No such thing as too small.

Good to see Liefeld refined his craft.

Aren't Cyborg, Beast Boy, Starfire, and Raven too old to still be on the Titans? Isn't it required that you be a TEEN? I thought they were all about as old as Nightwing, which would put them in their early 20s. Am I wrong in that assumption?

They're not part of the current "Teen Titans" lineup, which includes Robin, Wonder Girl, Superboy, and Kid Flash. At one point, they were grouping together just as "The Titans", but I'm not sure they even have that anymore.

I didn't realize the Titans were like Menudo in that respect.

I believe that's why they changed thier name to just The Titans.

They train the Teen members of the Titans on the weekends. I think the adult members just refer to themselves as Titans.

And looking at those Liefeld pictures really make me feel sorry for Gail Simone. She's a great writer (as Double Date can attest to, thus keeping this post on-topic), but everyone's skipping her guest-arc on the book because of the awful art. Though according to Gail herself, Rob gave ALL of his proceeds from the arc to one of the Hurricane Katrina relief funds, so he can't be all bad.

In comics, she's still got a monthly title (Birds of Prey), I believe. In the JLU universe, I'm not sure she exists yet. We don't see much of Gotham proper, so she might still be Batgirl.

Or, no, wait -- I think in the episode where Black Canary found out that Wildcat was in that underground superpowered brawl thing, she might have been talking to Oracle at the beginning (over her comlink). Or maybe I'm imagining it.

I think the Timm-verse has precluded the possibility of Oracle. An elder Barbara Gordon has already been established, after all, in Batman Beyond. Frankly, I like that. While I love that good writers have salvaged the situation so well, I still really hate the idea of the storyline in the first place. Stuff like that is precisely why I don't read comic books. Everything I've seen about it makes it seem exploitative and unnecessary. For such a core character, count me in the "you just don't do that" camp. Kudos for people taking the ball and running with it, as I have every reason to believe that Oracle is an exceptional and groundbreaking character, I just don't like what I've seen about her origin.

You reffering to The Killing Joke?

I'm amazed that Liefeld can still find work. Irks me that a.) the dude can't draw a head at an angle and b.) I dropped some serious cash on his re-launches of Thor, FF, etc.

God forbid he ever get a hold of a JLA-related book. Blech.

Ah, that sounds like you've heard what happens in the The Killing Joke but haven't actually read it yourself. Try it: one of the best comics of all time and what happens to Barbara (which has real meaning and consequence in the story) is much less explotative and arbitary than, say, the death of Superman - which was always a gimmick.

I agree with Nuallain. Awesome book, and it showed the depths of the Joker's madness and cruelty even more than the original Dark Knight. BStu, you should check it out.

As a person, no. As an artist?


I read that last word as "crap," which incidentally works much better for me.


It's a well-written story in its own right, but it did smack of Girlfriend-in-Refrigerator syndrome (before the aforementioned Ms. Simone coined the phrase). Let's face it: they violently and permanently crippled the second most well-known and popular heroine in the DCU. Would that have been allowed to happen to a male character of the same relative status?

I've read The Killing Joke and I'm just not a fan.

It reminds me of Miller's work ;-) . Miller seems to do grit for grit's sake. I don't know if he's going for hyper realism or what but his stories are too unbalanced. I don't want my superhero stories to mirror a cop show. If I wanted that, I'd save my time and money and watch NYPD Blue or something. The superhero genre is inherently absurd and and forcing gritty realism into the superhero world, imo, devalues the characters and the genre. GRR!


ETA: Oops...Friday = brain is mush day! Yup, it's Miller I meant but I just happen to dislike The Killing Joke for the same reason. As for Moore, I haven't finished Watchmen yet, so the jury's still out

The Killing Joke was written by Alan Moore. I assume you're referring to Frank Miller, creator of Sin City. I'm not a fan of Miller either but I do like Moore.

I remember reading an interview with Moore (can't find a link, sorry) where he acknowledged that The Killing Joke was his weakest story for DC. That's not to say it isn't worth a read, but I don't think it really has much to say, except that the Joker is crazy. Plus I think the whole crippling Babs Gordon story was retarded, especially since any number of heroes in the DCU possess the ability to heal her.

OTOH, that same gritty realism is part of what makes Moore's Watchmen one of the genre's greatest stories.

Edit: You haven't finished Watchmen? What the heck are you doing on the internet? Get to it!

Correct me if I'm wrong (which is quite possible with the day I'm having), Watchmen exists is its own universe. I'm not sure it would have been as successful if these characters weren't amalgams and existed in the DC universe (or some other pre-existing, iconic, decades-old universe). I think it's a blessing that Moore couldn't use existing DC characters...the restrictions of expectation was lifted and Moore was given free reign to design his own world (which is early 80's NYC, right). And, so far with my reading, I haven't associated Moore's Watchmen world with the DC universe at all, and therefore, I can accept that these all-too-human, irrevocably dsyfunctional masked heros/vigilantes can exist in our world (well, 80's NYC). So, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind gritty realism in comics, it just doesn't fit in the DC universe that I know. Although, I'm curious, would this kind of gritty realism work better in the Marvel universe? I don't follow Marvel.

You're both right and wrong. Moore originally wanted to use the ex-Charlton characters that DC now owns. DC wouldn't let him, so he created new characters instead. Two of those characters have been featured prominently on JLU: the Question (who became Rorschach) and Captain Atom (Dr. Manhattan).


Considering the current status of DC in general and Blue Beetle in particular, I'm not sure it gets any grimmer or grittier. Marvel has always been seen as more realistic, but the good ol' days of the fun DCU now exist only in the context of this show.

Poor Blue Beetle...

(At least my friend is making me a custom JLU-style Blue Beetle figure out of a Flash, so I can display Beetle with his pals Booster Gold and Elongated Man.)

You might enjoy Kingdom Come, which is basically a parable of DC's old guard fighting back against a group of Image-style heros/villians/anti-heros.

Marvel did a competing miniseries (was it "Squadron Supreme") when they heard that DC was doing a realistic interpretation of heros. I'm not a big fan.

Sorry - antecedant trouble. I meant that Squadron Supreme was a competing mini to Watchmen

Squadron Supreme was years before Kingdom Come. 1985-86 vs 1994.

If, say, Robin was beaten to death with a crowbar, you mean?



The fact that Nixon was President in 1985, and the fact that the US won the war in Viet Nam, gave it away...

Sorry, I don't mean to sound so snarky.