"Seems" being the operative word here.

My main concern about Hawkman showing up is that it takes away from Hawkgirl's place as a unique character, with the "real" Hawkman around she's just another female knock-off of a male hero.

Did anyone catch the VA for Fire? Sometimes the accent struck me as being rather over the top, but I've never been to Brazil so I wouldn't know.

I don't know, Perfect Xero. The way Hawkman is set up here in the JLA animated continuity, he's really like a knock-off of Hawkgirl.

I'd considered that, but he's also been set up as the "real" Hawkman (who has all of the memories to go with it). His running off the list of "likes" and her stunned reaction sets him up as something more than just a wannabe stalker.

The only way I'd want to see Hawkman on this show is if it was the angry conservative counterpoint to Green Arrow that he's often used as in the comics. Then the two of them could get locked into a room together and kill each other, then I'd be much happier.

Ah. Thank you, Mr. McD. That would be a twist wouldn't it, if it didn't happen. Personally I don't mind either way I just think the soap opera-ish of it should end so we can move on, especially since a) this might the last season or two and there are not a lot of shows left and b) a lot of other heroes deserve major screentime.

Hawkman (one of my fave characters I must admit) and Vixen (another, even in her comic form) deserve to be more than props or obstacles to the "stars" of the show. Hawkman deserves to be more than a "knock-off" of Hawkgirl or Crazy-Stalker-Man that Batman is suspicious at (the comic Hawkman would knock the all-knowing Batman on his ass without blinking or apologizing - one of the reasons I like him so).

Having said that I still think GL/Hawkgirl is gonna happen just because so many expect it (and I sympathize with all those hundreds of I hate Hawkgirl websites), probably in the last ep. or two which would be unfortunate (dragging stories out always is). But I would love (really!truly!) to be surprised.

If that didn't happen after the Thanagarian invasion, I think she's safe.


As long as it isn't a major story line, I don't care whether GL and Hawkgirl end up together or not. It wouldn't bother me either way. That being said, I don't really see how the soap opera could end realistically. There are too many feelings involved to just end it with no repercussions.

The invasion was a completely different situation, the other Thanagarians were the villains, they were beaten and then they left.

I don't see how any of that is relevant. If she's still a unique character after we've seen a whole planet of people just like her, then the things that make her unique extend beyond her powers. Carter has simulated those powers, but he didn't betray the team or have a romance with GL (of which we're aware, at least). After four seasons worth of character development, Hawkgirl will be fine.

Personally I like the "soap opera".

There are basically two things I care about in terms of character on JLU. The intersection of the extraordinary job and the mundane feelings and fears and comic moments of real life, and the moral/ethical challenges that come with the job. For the latter, the Supes/Bats debates about how to proceed in various circumstances are the classic example. For the former, it's all the little interpersonal non-hero moments that are most satisfying, and that includes all the romance stuff, Flash's comic relief, etc.

A little romantic triangle or quadrangle or whatever won't give me cooties. The Huntress/Question stuff was very satisfying to me on that same front. And I also appreciated (within the limits of the DC continuity and a kids rated show), that they keep mildly hinting about Fire and Ice (yeah yeah Ice/Ice Maiden, as far as I can tell they're conflating the characters for the JLU continuity).

If I just wanted wall-to-wall fighting I'd watch Dragonball Z.

As far as the presence of Hawkman damaging Hawkgirl, enh. The female version of a character being the sidekick/secondary/knockoff is more an artifact of comic history and cultural assumptions, as far as the modern 2005 JLU continuity is concerned I don't have to buy into it and neither do the writers. I suppose for big Hawkman fans this might be a problem, but if I'm thinking the "primary" Hawk-Hero on the planet, I'll take the actual Thanagarian with a modern Nth metal weapon, real wings, and a bunch of established character history over the Past Lives guy, regardless of how noble his intentions might be.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was kind of miffed they didn't really explain that too clearly.

Kinda late chiming in, but I liked the LoD ep much better than Shadow of the Hawk, just because I was marking out at all the villains will hopefully be seeing this season. It also makes for great speculation every time two or more villains or shown teaming up on screen, whether it's a LoD-centric episode or not.

I loved Shadow of the Hawk. Shayera has somehow ended up as one of the most interesting characters in the JLU, and the series showed Bruce's best qualities off as well. (Favorite Batman moments: (1) nonchalantly discussing Carter's activities through various Hawkgirl webring flamewars; (2) basically ignoring an egyptian wallspike deathtrap; (3) and the best, Batman (!) giving John Stewart romantic advice).

I liked the Carter Hall introduction. (Full disclosure - I'm a Katar Hol loyalist, so I can take or leave Carter). He could turn out to be the actual reincarnation of Katar Hol, or he could turn out to be a deluded victim of a Thanagarian database, but either way, I imagine he'll be fairly cool.

Also: The Blackhawks stuff chokes me up a little bit every time. I would absolutely watch a Blackhawks show. Or say, a serialized "DC Presents" cartoon that rotated through various short DCU character advantures, and which included regular Blackhawks segments.

I also have a tremendous affection for stories where old people demonstrate they can still kick a little ass. Yeah, I completely loved the Soul Power episode of Static Shock too.

Same here. Also, The Grey Ghost on B:TAS, and even the Nightshade episodes of the old live-action Flash.

Indeed. Unless you're an avid comic reader (and our already small number is sadly dwindling), characters like Hawkgirl and John Stewart are much more established and developed than Hawkman, Hal Jordan, and Kyle Raynor. Even as a huge Hal fan, I find that kind of cool—a victory for cartoon affirmative action, as it were.

I heart Soul Power.

Wasn't it established somewhere in the Hawkman titles that Thanagarians didn't always have real wings, and that they used artificial ones in ancient times? If that's the case, then the fake wings that Carter puts on could be what Katar Hol actually wore in ancient times.

Over on his forum, Mr. McDuffie states that in the series Thanagarians used to wear artificial wings, but over the past few hundreds years have used genetic engineering to evolve natural ones. Carter used his knowledge from the tomb to design a set for himself, as the Egyptian Thanagarians were still wearing artifical wings. Any human/Thanagarian hybrid would be born without wings (Warhawk).

Oh, and apparently Shayera Hol is a very common Thanagarian name.

Where would I find this forum?

So, is Hol like the Thanagarian version of Smith?

You know, I think Carter Hall is a sympathetic character, but I don't like the idea of him getting together with Shayera. He did seem too stalkerish to me, and that stuff she liked thing could have been gotten out of a magazine.

Also, the "I hate Hawkgirl" stuff on the internet was great. Seems like the people of earth treat the Justice League more as celebrities than superheroes, though I guess that would be superheroes are treated.

I like everybody better than I like John Stewart.

But the wit, and the incisive biting satire, and the Emmy and...

Oh, you said John, not Jon.

Those are my feelings as well. Hawkman and Vixen seem to mere pawns in whatever game Shayera and GL seem to be playing (i.e. its obvious there's still something there and that they want to be together - at least IMO). Batman's question to GL "Why are you still with Vixen" was unanswered and aside from the obvious - the writers want to stretch this soap opera- there really is no serious reason. We've never seen evidence that John feels towards Vixen what he (still) feels for Shayera and the writers have decided to make Hawkman a stalker-nut-job that no one takes seriously (Superfriends style) and so he can't be regarded as a serious contender for Hawkgirl's heart. I was reading the talkback for the episode over at the DCAU Toonzone forums and there was a lot of Hawkman loathing over there and since many of the folk don't read the Hawkman comic and don't realize what a badass hero he can be (both a suave gentleman sans mask and a warrior swinging a Big F***ing Mace with it) the only impressions they have of Hawkman is what they see on the cartoon. What we see instead are two characters (Vixen, who John can't even answer why he's still with her and Hawkman, a stalker/fanboy/nutcase) who are not viable alternatives to win the heart of their prospective loves. In that case its not a true triangle/quadrangle. The viewer can't see either of them (as the story is currently written) getting the love/heart of the guy/girl of their choice. And I say this with all due respect to McDuffie and Timm who have written/created the best animated super-hero show ever (Heck, I even liked the Hawk and Dove episode).

At least two people (probably Hawkman and Vixen) are going to get seriously hurt when this is all over and I don't think a "let's all be friends" ending is realistic either.

Actually, I have to disagree with you here. I don't remember the exact scenes, but I think we've seen enough to know that GL feels something for Vixen (in addition to his feelings for Shayera). Like? Love? Lust? I'm not sure, but there's something there. Likewise, I think the writers did an excellent job making Carter a viable love interest. Despite no one in the story taking him seriously, the last scene hints that there may well be truth to his claims. I'd even go as far to say that the scene is more persuasive than the existence of Warhawk in a possible future. Considering she had a relatively hard time choosing Jon over a fake, villainous Katar, stalker Carter has a shot.

Perhaps, although I suspect that at some point this season someone in this love quadrangle will be seriously hurt (physically, that is) and we all know how that brings out true feelings and all that. It's the way GL and Shayera started dating, after all. Unforunately, there won't be any Joker commentary to throw in a few laughs. I miss the Joker.

I thought JLU did an excellent job of combining the Golden Age/Silver Age Hawkman into a single package that made some narrative sense. I mean, how do you explain a universe where two separate people from different planets have nearly identical names and adopt not only the same superhero identity, but identical costumes? The comic book version is so complicated it becomes almost a joke. This version is much cleaner, while still respecting the history of the character.

I have to add that I didn't mind the stalkerish depiction of Hawkman so much, since this is only his first outing as a hero. I'm willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that in the future, Hawkman will come off as more of a badass. Perhaps the memories of Katar will assert themselves in battle.

I even like the origins story, which makes a lot more sense than anything in the comics. Maybe DC should just hire McD to fix all the screwed up origins in the DCU. They could start with Hawkman or Donna Troy.

I can just imagine something like Go Fug Yourself going off on Shayera's changing looks.

Shayera, we agree, no mask is doing you a world of favors. But the yellow tank top and sweats aren't helping. It doesn't say "superheroine" so much as "just woke up."

I'm curious: Have comic sales really dropped over the recent years? From what I understand, there has been a resurgence in the popularity of comic books starting in the mid '90s. And I know a lot of people (including myself) who have just gotten into the world of comics due to JL/U, other related DC series (both live action and cartoons) and the recent Marvel movies. Hell, I can't get enough of the DC comics now because JL/U has introduced me to many new awesome characters that I've never heard of before (half of those LoD villians are a complete mystery to me, btw thanks for all the great LoD links, guys!). So, I think many of us new devoted fans are naturally going to turn to the comics to fill in the holes and to get our fix during those long hiatuses or,god forbid, the end of the series.

I also don't really have an opinion about the Shayera/John 'ship and subsequent quadrangle. I do like Carter Hall though. Creepy handsome stalker or hot reincarnated Indian Jones-ish Hawk alien? I'm intrigued. However, I'm more interested in seeing more of the Question/Huntress 'ship. Or, this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I want to see what's going on between Diana and Bats. Bats needs some love too. He's dishing out all this advice and he's getting nothing in return.

The closed captioning had it as "I.A. Hawkgirl." I had to figure it out from later context (wonky hearing, makes it hard to understand stuff at times).

Yeah, closed captioning sucks sometimes. It showed up on mine like that too.



I read them. Just at Books A Million. I can't afford to buy them.

Jon Stewart would be a wonderful Green Lantern. Hell I think JLU should grab him as a voice actor just on general principles.

I wonder if Jon's a comic book fan? Next time I'm an audience member (I try to go at least once or twice a year - need my live Jon dose) I'll have that question ready during his preshow 'ask me anything' audience time.

Which is why they should bring in Catwoman.

I'd be happy if they brought in any Batman villain except Joker (without Harley I just don't care about him).

That's me all over. I used to get every Batman and Superman book that came out, along with large chunks of their "family" books and JLA and so much else.

Eventually,though, it just became harder and harder to justify $2.95 per issue (more for many of the higher quality paper or special interest books), especially since the actual "story" in each issue seems to be getting shorter and shorter. I couldn't make up my mind which to keep and which to get rid of, because there was so much continuity to keep abreast of... I just quit comics altogether.

Still love Bats and Supes, though.

Count me in as someone sharing your unpopular opinion, MereyGB. I always found them a more interesting pairing than HG/GL, especially since Batman is not a relationship guy. Of course Batman Beyond confirms that Bruce ends up alone, but it'd be interesting to see how this happens.

While absolutely true, it's also kind of ironic because Bats has had more love interests (Zatanna, Andrea Beaumont, Catwoman, Talia, Lois Lane, WW, Batgirl) than the rest of the original Leaguers and he's the only Earth raised hero who's been engaged. Plus, for once it actually wasn't his fault that the engagement was broken off.

True. I just got back to comics a few years ago and it basically costs me $30 a month for 10 titles. My mother used to get comics at the newstand for 25 - 50 cents as late as the early 1970s. Comics were at their high in the 1980s where you had a lot of titles selling as many as 75,000 to over 100,000 copies a month, now the only way you get that is if you have Joss Whedon or Kevin Smith writing it or a superstar artist like Jim Lee doing the art. A book that sells 30,000 a month is considered successful. The problem of course if that kids aren't buying and because comics are on newstands or in the big bookstores (except in collected editions) its a niche market. DC and Marvel make more money off the characters via licensing and marketing for other venues like movies or cartoons (I would wager that JLU makes more for TimeWarner than almost any actual DC title).

Back to topic: I really like how JLU simplifies things.Of course they don't have the tremendous continuity headaches in the past to deal with. I too would love to see how they would handle Donna Troy (although her current origin as a part of WW's soul stolen and given human form as a normal human baby who then grows up to find out she's Diana's "soul sister" is pretty good).

About Hawkman (and I know I keep coming back to that, but I honestly never though I'd see him on JLU and I'm kinda protective of him since he's a favorite in his current incarnation), the most I ask for is that people who don't read the comics (i.e. most people) can see why he's a cool character.

He really is different than any other DC hero in that he's not afraid of violence, he's not afraid to kill, those who have been reading the comics know he's not above brain-washing villains or even Batman himself. He takes no crap from anyone. He wouldn't be all simpering begging for Shayera's attention (he started to do that to Kendra/Hawkgirl too but when she wasn't having any he moved on, got another girlfriend and eventually even pulled away from Hawkgirl) and if Batman started in on his sarcastic comments or GL started acting jealous, Hawkman wouldn't take it, he'd whack them without saying a word. And yet...he's a hero. He beats up bad guys and takes no prisoners and without the mask he's just as smart as any other JL member (he is an archeologist and museum curator after all). That's a cool Hawkman, not some lovestruck stalker who everyone thinks is nuts (even if he's not). I hope I see it.

Sales are nowhere near as high now as they were during the speculator days of the early 90s. Things seem to have stabilized in the last few years (give or take a big event) since the speculator market crashed around the late 90s. We almost certainly won't be seeing sales like those of Superman #75 and X-Men #1 ever again.

.

Supes, Aquaman, Flash, and John were all engaged in the comics. Batman has a lot more screentime than anyone else in the Timmverse, thanks to his starring roles in three series, so he has naturally gotten more character development.

Oh, man, now that I think about it, a Terry McGinness vs. Son of the Bat confrontation would rock. Bring on the next B:B movie!

Anybody else still buy comics at the comic books shows or stores 50 cent box?

What was the cause of the crash?

I've looked through the 50 cent boxes but I don't know enough about comics to even begin to know what look for. And actually, my current comic book store is near my office in the Wall St. area. It's always fun to go on Wednesdays and see all the fanboys dressed in suits pouring over the new books.

Among other things, common sense finally prevailed. Buying 25+ copies of a book because you think it might be worth a lot of money in the future is, in a word, stupid.

I was sticking to the animated shows, mainly because I don't read the comics. That being said, aren't all of those guys married (or were married)? Oh, and while I admit that Batman has had the most focus that doesn't change the fact that he's the true ladies man among the original Leaguers (on the show). J'onn is still hung up on his wife, Flash is too immature to be considered a ladies man, and Superman is still trying to find a good time to tell Lois Lane that he looks a lot like Clark Kent. GL's the only one who comes close, as he's currently on girlfriend #3. The guy sure does get around.

Common sense.

I kid, but, the whole reason sales were up so high was the speculator boom. It was right around the late 80s and early 90s that the idea really took hold in the public consciousness that an old, well-kept comic bought for very little could eventually be worth a whole lot. So, it seemed like a brilliant idea: spend a dollar now, seal it in plastic and keep it somewhere safe, sell it in 30 years for $100,000.

The thing is people had to guess at what MAY be valuable in 30 years. So they would buy anything that looked like it could be the Action Comics #1 of 2020. Sometimes multiple copies.

So two big things were, at the time, guaranteed to make something be a big seller: make it a #1, or introduce a New Hit Character. So the industry fed into the speculators methods, and put out more and more books that they would buy up.

Problem is, after a few years, any speculator with enough brain cells started to realize, "If a TON of people bought, say, all five variant covers of X-Men #1, and then sealed them in mint condition... then they really aren't going to be rare, are they? And so they're going to be worth, like, $10 in 2020, not $10,000."

And thus, those people stopped buying.

It didn't help that a lot of the writing in comics in the 90s really sucked something fierce, of course.

Heh. That sounds like me, five or six years ago; just swap out Batman and Superman with X-books, Vertigo and some fringe titles. I'm now completely, 100% trade-paperback only. Sure. I'm still several years behind and missing out on all the DC/Marvel "events", but my checking account couldn't be happier. Makes it damn hard to avoid spoilers in forums and threads like this one though.

Is Zatanna part of the dreaded "Bat-Embargo" too? I'd like to see her and Bats back together. And more Question/Huntress, please. Thanks. Heck, someone just start pre-prod on a TV-MA show featuring that couple and Green Arrow/Black Canary kicking ass. Yes. That would be sweet.

That sounds like a typical speculative bubble. And those always burst. Doesn't matter if it's stock, real state, comic books or tulips.

Common sense very is rarely involved.

Bubbles can burst?????

She can't! She's too cute! Oh wait, wrong animated cartoon.



I'd like to see more Zatanna, although not necessarily back together with Bats. And I'd definitely watch that Question/Huntress+Green Arrow/Black Canary show.

I think I remember reading that The Question is set for atleast a token appearance this season. With only 13 episodes to work with and a meta-arc still in play (Lex Luthor's continuing journey mixed with LoD), there really isn't much room to work with.

Which is why, try as I might, I'm just not all "into" this season. These last few episodes are going to read like a wish list of the creator's piling everything they can into a few last moments.

I mean hell, the unanswered questions are STILL massive. Remember, this is the show that went three seasons before letting us know that Supes and Lois were still dating. Frankly, I'm dying for some closure with Superman and Lois; it's the one niggling portion of STAS thats still floating out there unanswered. Darkseid really SHOULD be brought back one last time, but if not.... then his death in Twilight can suffice. While I miss the conspiracy theories... Grodd, Luthor, and Savage (he is SO pulling the strings of the LoD) teaming up is the stuff of legend. Yes, I miss Joker but his swan song in RoTJ still stands as a nice coda to him. I still want to know whatever happened to Catwoman and Nightwing in Batman beyond continuity, but those will probably never be addressed given that Epilogue wrapped it up as well as it could.

Bottom Line: Don't expect "the final season of the JLU" out of these episodes. Expect a 13 episode epilogue to the last season, along with as many crazy ideas McDuffie can throw on screen.

I wasn't just the speculators either. Regular readers got sick of having to pay inflated prices, spend every summer buying extra titles because of crossovers, all the star artists founding image and unable to meet a deadline... it just got to be too much.

I just got back to being a fanboy, because I've made friends with some people in the industry and taking in so much through osmosis.

The Death of Superman was a good example. People were snatching that up left and right because they figured it would be worth hundreds of thousands in the future, because it would be rare. This was all based on past sales of rare and limited comic books.

Only problem? Was that DC printed enough copies of first-run Death of Superman that really, it wasn't all that rare. Everyone got a copy who wnated a copy.

In order for something to be rare, they have to make it limited and one-of-a kind.

Frankly, I'd prefer if they'd just start putting out JLU cartoons of all the popular titles instead of comics. They're more fun to watch than read anyway.