Isn't Tommy dead (or considered dead at least) in the JLAU? I remember him being mentioned in the Huntress-vendetta episode...

One hour twenty minutes to go to the season premiere(s)!

And I'm sure Hitman would be off-limits for the animated universe (too violent a character, particularly since he isn't a supervillain per se), but they did drop Tommy Monaghan's name in "Double Date," just as a "wink wink nudge nudge" reference for the fanboys to get.

I know Mattel did not produce a Lobo action figure due of pressure from Wal-Mart because he was also a very violent character, and Kenner/Hasbro weren't allowed to before that, back when they had the DC toy license. I'm sure Hitman would be even more of a problem to produce and merchandise, so I doubt Timm and company would have bothered.

"I Am Legion" was very enjoyable. The interplay between Grodd and Luthor was great fun (as were Shayera's attempts to get the Flash laid), and Seymour Cassel as the last of the Blackhawks was a wonderful touch.

I'm interested to see if Grodd's possession of the spear of Longinus is a build-up to anything else; in DC continuity, it did make Hitler invincible to magical attack (the handwave explanation for why Dr. Fate and the Spectre didn't float over to Germany and settle the Fuhrer's hash).

I wanted to but that bastard Kenner wouldn't hear it.

Fire has an interesting bikini line, and it's always great to hear an old guy say "Good times."

Shadows, and mummies, and delusional lovers! Oh, my!

So, how was Carter flying at the end? Thanagarian technology? 57 "I hate Hawkgirl" message boards, and over 100 unaffiliated webrings. Hee!

I suppose it didn't cross Shayera's mind that Carter could know all of that personal information because he's obsessed with her. Still, it's interesting that she's considering the possibility of reincarnation since she doesn't believe in an afterlife.

The elevator scene between GL, Shayera, and then Batman was priceless, as was Vixen's efforts to get Shayera to go play with Carter in Cairo.

"Shadow of the Hawk": So they were holding back on using Hawkman back until... they could play him as a half-demented stalker? Ooooookay. Still clever, though.

Of course, there was the typically wry dialogue of Marc DeMatteis ("I tracked him to several "I Hate Hawkgirl" websites." "I didn't know things like that existed." "There are 57 webrings").

You should have seen the grin on my face when the Legion of Evil headquarters appeared. Now all they need to do is capture the Justice League and put them on a show trial.

Shayera reallly got a chance to shine, being in both episodes. And was that a blatant ass shot on her in the second episode? I'm not complaining, but I have to say I don't think Fox Kids would have let that one by. I also really like how they brought Hawkman back. Poor Shayera just doesn't have any luck with men.

And let's see...it's nice to see Flash being a valued member of the team. He used to merely be the man who runs fast, but now he does all this other great stuff too. The helicopter bit was great. He even seems a little more mature or something now. I used to be annoyed with all his corny jokes, but now he's truly just a fun character to be around. I guess the events of last season have changed him.

I wonder if you go back through old episodes, you can actually find Carter among the crowd during some of those scenes.

That's really all I've got for now. It's good to have the League back. These episodes weren't as wringing as the closer to last season, but as premieres, they will do very nicely.

Hawkman = Creep

Seriously, Bats had him pegged, from the getgo; he's a stalker. Actually, it's far worse than that, he's an archealogist who doubles as a annoying Hawkgirl fanboy. Discovering that artifact was probably the next best thing to a self-insert JLU fanfic, for him.

That being said, I did enjoy the Shayera Hol Power Hour.

Good way to start the season.

"I Am Legion": So Lex has a piece of Brainy inside him? Gayer than if Smallville has Michael Rossenbaum and James Marsters slow dancing. Interesting that Key and Dr. Polaris got their old-school looks. And I forgot about the Blackhawks from the three-parter...but I didn't think you could mention Adolph in animation.

Fire...muy calliente. Wait, she's...y'know...Brazillian, and I don't know how to say that in Portugese. She seems more interesting than Aztek, at least.

Hawkman...yeah, turning him into stalker boy was hilarious. For a while, I thought he just just a schmuck archelogist possessed by Shadow Thief, who does have Thanagarian origins in comics. Kickass that Shaeyra laughed her winged ass off at Carter's story.

Oh, yes, it was definitely blatant, and from Carter's POV. I'm also sure Fox Kids wouldn't have allowed Shayera's quip about him not missing the dress last night.

Speaking of Flash, I find it really amusing that he has a hard time coming onto Fire. He was pretty blatant with WW and the Amazons in the beginning.

Was Shadow of the Hawk a held-back episode from before? The scene with Shyara, GL, and Bats appeared to be on the Watchtower, which I thought was gone now.

And, yeah, so, um, where did the wings come from?

I feel like I got my first official shout out from a show tonight with the line about posting online and being banned for flaming anti-Shayera fans. I know it probably wasn't just for TWOP, but the site was probably on their minds. That shit was funny as hell. And two great opening episodes. I can't believe how good this show has gotten. I love how they easily shift from crazy action sequences to romantic comedy between Flash and Green Flamey girl(who was that?). Complete with cute schmaltzy romantic music. Also love the Superman had a total of 3 seconds of screen time.

Ok, just in case I'm in the minority here. Who already likes Hawkman better than Mr. "I can't decide" Green Lantern? So Batman accepts that GL is supposed to be with Shayera because of a son seen in a "possible" future but can't accept re-incarnation (something accepted by many religions including Buddhism and Hinduism going back thousands of years) or was he dubious about GL's thing too. Because now that Hawkman is around, I wouldn't mind seeing the Shayera/GL thing put to rest at last instead of getting a love quadrangle with Carter and Vixen the expendable parts.

Was the "you didn't miss it last night" in regards the dress. Was that supposed to mean we could take they had s-e-x (but can't say it in a PG cartoon?)

And Batman was particular obnoxious this episode and just made things worse. I really can't stand his JLU incarnation recently. At the end I hoped Hawkman would have turned out to be like his comics version and really layed into Batman or belted him one. I want to see a Hawkman that inspires fear and kicks ass.

The Shadow Thief was done well I think and it showed how strong and dangerous a villian he could be.

The Legion of Doom episode was pretty good. I liked the fact that Lex is losing it and taking orders for once (and from a talking gorilla of all things!). Fire was all out of character, I would have preferred her more "fiery" (to pardon the pun) version from the comics. She was too fawning over Flash for the Bea/Fire I know.

Am I the only one who laughed when Carter first appeared? He looked like the cover of a bad romance novel.

Heh. 57 webrings.

Speaking of "Am I the only one" moments... am I the only one who was expecting his name to be a variant of Daniel Jackson? 8-)

I thought these episodes did a decent job of starting off a new season with a modified League. The Cadmus arc was a tough act to follow, and rather than try to top it, the writers just gave us to fun, if somewhat forgettable, episodes. I think the best part of both was the character interaction, which was some of the best we've seen on JLU, especially HG/Flash. And Luthor is completely in love with Brainiac.

And did anyone else notice that Supergirl was wearing the classic uniform in the promo? Can't wait till next week.

The first episode was a perfectly fine way to start off the new season ...

"Shadow of the Hawk" good lord that episode dragged on forever ... I kept looking at the clock expecting it be close to the end only to find out that it had only been 2 minutes since the last time I looked.

I thought he looked just like Reuben Flagg, the hero of American Flagg!, a classic ('80s) comic drawn by Howard Chaykin.

So far so good w/this season. I know this is the final season, you can tell b/c CN is burning off the episodes quickly, the only thing I had hoped w/the final season would be that they would go back to hour long episodes.

The first episode was great, especially when the doors opened and all of those villains were there. I was just expecting the ones we have seen plus a few more, but jeez, they brought them all out here. Lex is great, and I can't believe all the original voices they brought back, for this one episode. I'm loving the Shayera and Flash use, they were so underutilized last season and I have a feeling they will be making up for it here. I wish they would introduce the villains names earlier on in just small talk, b/c I didn't know the two guys that were w/Luthor until they mentioned it in the end. That just bugs me, i'm more of a Marvel guy that's why.

The Hawkman episode did drag a little, especiall the shadow guy, other than that I loved it. Sure the stalker thing was a little out of the blue, but it worked. The sexual tension was there and I'm sorry, but I never liked John and Shayer together. He's way too demanding like she is and they clash. Now Shayera and Hawkman, I liked them together. I think/hope we will be seeing him more this season off and on. If nothing else we might get Shayera in her Hawkgirl outfit once more. I'm sorry for all you John/Shayer shippers, but the idea of the series ending w/Hawkman and girl flying off into the sunset would just be so awesome. If this were to happen i'm not sure how fans would go w/that making the entire BB future no longer valid. Anyways, can't wait for the rest of the season.

I think they were able to get away with having not so serious episodes since this is just the beginning of the new season.

Couldn't really blame Batman for being suspicious towards Katar Hol, or Carter Hall as he called himself, in the beginning of the ep, due to the Thanagarian invasion. Though he was a bit more prickly about the reincarnation thing. But I guess, just like Kaiba through most of Yu-Gi-Oh!, he's more about logic than mysticism.

Agreed with the poster about Flash, though I think he hit his stride somewhere during the 2nd season of Justice League (pre-Unlimited), sometime around the ep. where he had to save the other League members. He may be a spaz, but he's got more heart than most of the others.

Is this really the last season? That's gonna suck. Especially with Sam Register the sole proprietor of any future DC toons.

Batman (at least in the comics) is pretty much an atheist, so no, he wouldn't readily believe in reincarnation.

He would believe in magic...after all, he's got Jason Blood on his Rolodex. He'd pass it off as "energy whose origins are too complex," but it's still magic.

Casca Longinus

Sorta On and Off Topic with the first ep tonight.

This is a website devoted to the books written by Barry Sadler. His character is Casca Longinus, the centurian who stabbed Christ in the side with his spear.
Christ curses him to live until he returns again.

He is basically an "eternal mercenary". The books are okay for a light read.

Back to topic.

This is already better than the entire last season. I can finally enjoy the show once more.

Old school Legion of Doom! Seeing that was awesome. The League building also bears more than a passing resemblance to the Hall of Justice. Also, lots of continuity. Continuity is always good.

It was painfully obvious the writers know jack about Egyptian civilization and archaeology in general. 6600 BCE? Not even. And anyone handling artifacts like that would get smacked around with a Marshalltown. I know it's just a cartoon but would it have killed them to just pick up a book, or take 5 seconds for a Google search?

I like the idea of John and Shayera. They won me over in the Christmas episode.

Legion Of Doom -
I didn't find the Doom episode all that good. Costume villians flying around during NOTHING is about as exciting, as watching heroes flying around during NOTHING. The best partd to me was Fire(pun, intended) her accent, so beautiful, the continunity of the BlackHawks, and Shayera/Flash scenes.
I'm hoping for a better outing in the next Doom episode.

Shadow Of the Hawk -
Was alot better than I thought it would be. The Bats/Shayera/GL was cool! I loved the GL/Shayera and Shayera/Katar Hol moments. The whole anti-Hawkgirls sites was inspired and freaking funny.(honestly, its not only TWOP :)
Calling Katar a stalker was spot on and heck, the guy IS stalking her. Liked how he appeared in certain fights that she and League was involved in.

The whole Egypt thing look beautiful and I didn't care if it was actual or factual. I like the whole reincarnation talk. Plus, the biggest to me was how GL and Katar view Destiny. Clearly, GL is still confused about it and Katar seems to embrace it.

Shadow Of The Hawk was a good episode!
(
I like them and to be honest, after War World, I was their and IS their biggest fan! If JL/JLU has done anything right its been their testament of giving these 2 characters a developed relationship that have seem so real. As soap opera-y as its gets, it also seem like a real couple dealing with issues. I like them very much.

The first episode was pretty good. I loved the Lex/Grodd interaction. There isn't a piece of Braniac still in Lex; I'm pretty sure "Braniac" was a figment of his imagination. Seeing Fire was fun, but Ice once again gets shoved into the background.

I loved seeing Hawkman. "His birth name is Joseph Gardner." A nice touch—obviously a tribute to creator Gardner Fox and artist Joe Kubert. They mentioned both Carter Hall and Katar Hol! The whole "57 webrings" conversation was LOL funny! It seems they're basically using the current Hawkman/girl origin, including the part where Carter remembers their past lives and Shayera doesn't. That works for me. I should've known the Shadow Thief would be the villain, but he was a pleasant surprise.


Yep, Nth metal.

I'm guessing that Hawkgirl's comment about Fire being...y'know...Brazilian was a reference to Ice being bisexual (although it's the other Icemaiden, who hasn't appeared on JLU, who's bi).

They handled the JLU roster the way I like it: a manageable number of heroes, main emphasis on interaction between the core members, significant time for the Flash and Hawkgirl, and no Hawk & Dove in sight. Liked the nods to continuity, including the fact that they're continuing the Lex storyline from the end of last season. However, I'm concerned that the Legion of Doom storyline could result in the show getting too cluttered with supervillains, with unnecessary characters getting shoehorned into episodes just for the sake of including them.

Making Carter Hall a Hawkgirl stalker was inspired, and the anti-Hawkgirl webring bit was classic. I realize that the cartoon isn't going to perfectly match real-world Egyptian history, but I agree with Vermicious Knid that they should have put at least a little more effort into getting it right.

So, in the current comic versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Hawkman is human and believes/is he's reincarnated? Whereas Hawkgirl is Thanagardian?


So do we think that Carter Hall found those Nth Metal wings in the tomb or did he build them himself? For some reason, I found Carter strapping on his wings to be both silly (reminds me of little girls and their angel wings for the Christmas pagent) and kind of creepy.

Actually, it's kind of the opposite. Shayera's soul entered the body of her great niece Kendra after she (Kendra) committed suicide, but she only possesses Kendra's memories. Carter Hall was reborn on Thanagar with the memories of all his past lives. When they met (again), he told Kendra/Shayera that they were destined to be together. Obviously, that was something she had a hard time accepting. At this point, it is true and (AFAIK) she accepts that now.

Actually, Shayera Thal the Thangarian is a whole different character than the current Hawkgirl who is the great-niece of the original Hawkgirl, Shiera Sanders Hall (Carter Hall's wife). When Kendra (current Hawkgirl) commited suicide her soul moved on and Shiera (who had just died in Zero Hour mini-series) took over the body. But she has no memories of being Shiera and still has her Kendra memories so when Carter came back to life and wanted to pick up where they left off she was freaked.

Shayera Thal is Hawkwoman in the comics, a Thangarian policewoman. Her partner/lover Katar Hol was merged with Carter Hall (Golden Age Hawkman/archeologist) in the Zero Hour mini-series, the merging couldn't last and the new Hawkman died (actually nobody was buying it so DC killed him).

When DC brought back Hawkman again it was Carter Hall with the reincarnation/Egyptian origin. Katar Hol, the Thangarian, is MIA and presumed dead. Hawkwoman was totally out of the loop on all this and she and Carter are friends and nothing more (he's not HER Hawkman after all). The current Hawks have a connection to Thanganar in that they use Nth Metal Technology that Carter found in Egypt and have made various connection with Thanganar over the years. With so complicated an origin you can see why Hawkman wasn't published for awhile and why people are hesitant to use him.

Once again JLU had simplified the origin to make it understandable (heck the comics John Stewart and Shayera don't even know each other). In the comics though even if Carter can come off stalkery (as he did in the beginning of the Hawkman comic with Kendra) he really is a hero and a badass one at that who's unafraid of anyone especially the all-knowing Batman. That's the kind of Hawkman I want to see.

Yeah, I was really hoping for a Hawkman who was like a cultured, educated version of Conan the Barbarian with touches of Indiana Jones, who would punch Batman in the face.

Well, I have a feeling that this Hawkman will be showing up again, seeing as how he's obsessed and just a tad crazy. Perhaps you can take solace in the fact that Batman took a lot of hits in the opening teaser and was looking a little ragged in the tomb.

IIRC, when Carter was reincarnated (again, on Thanagar), he explicitly stated that Katar Hol's memories were now his.


Huh? I don't follow. Kendra has Shiera Hall's soul. The reborn Hawkman is principally Carter Hall. He is her Hawkman, but she just doesn't remember. I read JSA but not Hawkman, so I could be missing something.

I hope we'll see Hawkman again this season, but I have my doubts. It would be nice if he (and, even better, Captain Marvel) became recurring characters, but the similarity to a main character is probably a major strike against that.

I enjoyed both episodes though I liked the first, with the Legion of Doom a bit more because I'm really tired of the Green Lantern/Shayera ship. Either they're going to get together or not. And if GL is so convinced that he and Shayera are destined to be together, why is he still stringing Vixen along?

I liked the fact that, like JLU, the Legion of Doom seems to be comprised of many super villans, not just ones that act as counter-parts to the Big 7. And it was nice to see one of my faves, Silver Banshee, even though she didn't do anything except fly past. And it was good to see at least one of the Blackhawks not to mention their crazy security setup. Flying, robot sharks? War wheels? 'If you were 20 years younger, you'd still be ancient'. Hee!

Someone upthread mentioned that it was weird seeing the Flash all tongue tied around Fire. I like the fact that the writers are fleshing him out more, rather than just having him play the clown all the time. I'm pretty sure he wasn't really interested in either Wonder Woman or any of the other Amazons but he is really interested in Fire which means he's actually worried about making a good impression.

Hawkman as stalker? Weird. And I was a little bugged by the historical flashback because it seemed strange that the Thanagarians were wearing essentially Egyptian outfits when they first appeared. Small nitpick but those outfits seemed odd for policemen.

So, are Shayera's wings attached to her. Hawkman seemed to have to attach his but I noticed that Shayera doesn't wear any sort of harness or anything and, when seen from the back, they seemed to be growing out of her, well, back. I know that they're cybernetic but I'm unclear of whether they're full attachements or can be removed.

Can anyone give me a hint as to who all the villians were when the Legion of Doom opened up?
I only recognized Livewire, Bizarro and Star Sapphire, from what I could see.

Distant Sun, I think mr.simpatico was refering to Shayera Thal, Hawkwoman. She's the Thangarian, so her Hawkman would be Kater Hol, not Carter Hall, the current Hawkman.

God Hawkman's continuity is fucked up. I know I just tried to explain it, but even I don't really understand how it works. Maybe the Infinite Crisis will fix some of this up.

I think they are.


Weren't they implying that the Egyptian outfits were based on Thanagarian attire?


It's hard to see, but I definitely saw Sinestro, Black Manta, Toyman, Giganta, Dr. Destiny, Copperhead, Cheetah, and Rampage.


I'm sure it'll only make it worse. I think the way it is now is about as good as it's going to get.

LoD villains include (from various scenes)

Dr. Destiny, Evil Star, Cheetah, Atomic Skull, Black Manta, Kobra, Shark, Blockbuster
Bizarro, Giganta, Silver Banshee, Dr. Polaris, Metallo, ????, KGBeast, Gentleman Ghost,
Copperhead, Black Mass, Toyman, Thinker, Rampage, Queen Bee, Sinestro, Star Sapphire, Gorilla Grodd, Weather Wizard, Heatwave, Killer Frost, (Some Flaming Woman),The Key, Major Disaster

Here comes even more fun.

Who's:
Dr. Destiny, Evil Star, Atomic Skull, Korba, Shark, Silver Banshee, KGBeast, Gentleman Ghost, Black Mass, Thinker, Rampaeg, Queen Bee, Heatwave, (Some Flaming Woman) and Major Disaster?

And I know who Killer Frost is (Firestorm's arch enemy!), even if they don't ever show Firestorm, but how could you tell it was her?

Hey, anyone out there smart enough and willing to do the whole screen-cap-with-lables thing that others are really good at?

---

You know what? Never mind. The Wikipedia page for the Legion of Doom was updated after last night, it seems, and lists all of them there.

Anyone else interested in knowing what I asked about, you can see it there.

If anybody wants info, here's some on Dr. Destiny, Atomic Skull, Kobra, Silver Banshee, KGBeast, Gentleman Ghost, Thinker, Queen Bee, Heat Wave, and Major Disaster.

What...no Shade? "This is not gonna work. Been there, done that. The Martian and the backwards-talking bitch are gonna mindwipe us and make us work at a Shoney's outside Coast City."

Hey, I can do it myself! I found this on another site, The Watchtower.

It's a screencap from the episode, just like I wanted.

Thanks to Arkham, I can detect, flying from left: Bizarro, Silver Banshee, Queen Bee, Sinestro and Star Sapphire.
Standing: Gentlman Ghost, ???, Cheeta (kneeling), Atomic Skull, Black Manta, Parisite, Giganta, Kobra, ???, ??? Gorrilla Grodd, Dr. Polaris, ???, Live Wire's head, KGBeast(? I thought this was Bane), ???, ???, Copperhead (kneeling), Toyman, Metallo, and ???.
Anyone care to help out on the ???s? I can't ID Dr. Desitny, Thinker, Heat Wave or Major Disaster.
---

I have not been reading the comics. I've been trying to save money, but I swear, I'm going to make sure I get to Infinite Crisis when it comes out.

I'm confused though by a report I heard that the whole DC universe is going to jump forward a year in time after this. Is this a way to forgo the mistakes they made after Crisis on Infinite Earths, when all the series reboots weren't done the same way?

I'm deleting this message since it seems that everything has been straightened out.

I'm linking directly to the upload screen on The Watchtower site, not the one from Toon Zone. The one at Toon Zone is the one that I, too, keep getting "cannot find".

Can you see me now? Er, can you see it now? In my above post? I'm going to feel real smart when I get to tell the boy who everyone is.

It's not that I don't know who these characters are (OK, I don't. Shudup.), it's just that it went by so fast that I can't even tell some of the Batman/Superman ones, and I grew up watching those cartoons.

I would have guessed Bane too.

ETA I doubt they did this, but it would be funny if they included a supervillain who never appeared anywhere before just to drive us crazy trying to figure out who it is.

Why? Outside of Villains United, the run up to it has been inconsistent at best and abysmal at worst. I thought things couldn't get worse after Identity Crisis, but now I'm not so sure. I may have to give up the DCU completely when this show ends.

It sounds interesting. Tying all the comics together and making a big effort to affect the entire DC universe. I find it intriguing. I'll be getting my comic each week? month? biweek? Dunno. But I'm really eager for it. I want to see what they have planned.

Thank you, Vonation, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Even though Shayera/Hawkwoman is a much more kickass character than Kendra/Hawgirl, Shayera hasn't really been seen in the comics except for the current Rann/Thanganar war and a three-issue stint in the current Hawkman comic.

I know Mr.McDuffie sometimes hangs around here so I'd just like to say: Mr. McD, I understand you love Hawkgirl and so we have to see her ALL the time but a love triangle/quadrangle doesn't work if you the other two parts (i.e. Vixen and Hawkman) are just obstacles in the eventual reunion of GL/Hawkgirl (which seems obvious). Making Hawkman (one of DC's top 2nd tier characters and the only one of the four in the quad with his own title) a crazy stalker instead of the suave Indiana Jones/berseker with a big mace he is in the comics doesn't exactly make him a contender and its obvious (even if by Batman's question) that John would really rather be with Shayera rather than Vixen. I agree 100% with serendous who said:

Exactly. Since there's no actual doubt how this quadrangle is going to turn out why bother with the soap opera? And why waste the characters of Carter/Hawkman and Mari/Vixen who (I would argue) could be just as interesting if not more so (to those who don't read the Hawkman comic its one of DC's best current titles) than GL and Hawkgirl. I just wish this soap opera would end already so we could move on to super-heroing and making JLU something beyond the Green Lantern and Hawkgirl Sexual Tension Show (especially if this is indeed the last season).

As for Infinite Crisis, I'm really looking foward to it if only because Geoff Johns (the man who fixed the Hawkman mess and the Green Lantern/Hal Jordan mess as well as writing JSA) is writing it, if anyone can fix DC's continuity mess its him.

Once you had green you never go back.

I can see Luthor being leary of teaming up with another genius ape.

Some wry snarking in both eps, I Hate Hawkgirl message boards, the weird crap on Blackhawk Island (the writer obviously looks at superdickery.com), the ass shot of Hawkgirl. I liked the shots about DC's silver age goofiness, Dr. Polaris and The Key still looking awful and the heigh of supervillianry is robbing banks.

I love Batman's role as the blunt conscience of the JL. Between calling Superman a boy scout and telling GL to shit or get off the pot he does keep the group honest.

I hope this isn't the last season.

Reminded me a lot of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, which itself was heavily influenced by Blackhawk comics, among its other serial, pulp, and comic book inspirations.



The Shade is way too smart (although I wish they had cast a voice actor with a British accent for him).