I loved X-Men Evolution, it gave me a look at some characters which were either completely ignored by TAS or only made a couple brief appearances.

I wonder why the Marvel series' were so inferior? You'd think they would have just mimicked a succesful series.

Another reason Marvel might not have had the great animation DC does is because DC is owned by Warner's and thus has not only love for the characters to turn out quality, but the rep of the studio tied into it as well.
It's possible that the financial success of DC's animated universe could spur Marvel to take a closer look at doing something similar. Not to mention the popularity of the X-men and Spider-man movies, and the video game releases of X-men, Punisher, and Hulk. Of course I'll get a bit screwed seeing as I have an undying love for Daredevil, but maybe in a few more years he can get another go.

X-Men Evolution was actually a better show than I gave it credit for at the time. I suppose I was too much of an X-men purist, and I missed the big '80s hairstyles.

And I agree that being a subsidiary of Time Warner probably has some advantages. But looking back, I think DC just truly lucked out when Timm/Dini and company helmed B:TAS.

Yeah, I also liked X-Men Evolution. But it would be cool to see Bruce Timm apply his animated style to the Marvel universe.
I'm curious to see how The Ultimates comes out later on DVD.

Very true point about Timm/Dini. I don't know much about them though: I assume they'd be good doing just about any animated story, but were either of them especially drawn to DC books?

I know that Timm was drawn specifically to Batman, and it was his proposal for that series that kicked the whole thing off.

Still, it would be neat to see him add Marvel to his repertoire. I personally haven't been that impressed overall with Marvel's 'toons, though they are better now than in decades past.

Mainly, though, I'd only want Timm to do it if we could one day have a (minor) crossover. I'd love to see Batman and Spider-Man team up in animation.

Part of the reason the Marvel's animated series back in the 90s sucked so hard was because of who ran it at the time: Ronald Perelman. He was more interested in using Marvel as a quick money making scheme and an outlet for junk bonds than he was in creating actual quality products. The shows were cheap because he and his investment group weren't interested in actually putting any kind of money behind them - that would have simply drained the coffers.

Then, in the mid-90s, Marvel was tied up in bankruptcy court limbo for a long time. It wasn't until Marvel was headed by Avi Arad and Ike Perlmutter that X-Men Evolution came out, which I thought was a pretty good show. Hopefully they'll do more of the same in the future.



Timm and Dini were both already on staff at Warner (for Tiny Toon Adventures) when the studio started putting out feelers internally for a Batman series to tie in with Batman Returns. Timm was a big Bats fan, so he jumped at the chance to develop an animated version. In a way, it was a very fortunate coincidence that he was employed by Warner at the time, and not some other studio.

Actually Season 2 of both the Fantastic Four and Iron Man cartoons are really good (and in both cases the first season was absolutely awful). Not Batman: TAS good, but they might be on par with Superman: TAS.

X-Men: Evolution was, IMO, a really good show and benefited a great deal by not adhering to the comics and creating their own unique universe.

Thanks for the info caffinated. I knew there was a reason I liked Tiny Toons.

What about live action TV? DC has had success here (minus Birds of Prey) since the Superman show with George Reeves. The only Marvel tv show I remember with any clarity is The Hulk.

As for topic...um...I got nothin.

There's Smallville. Past shows ... Wonder Woman, of course and the Lois & Clark series. There was a Flash series that lasted one season.

As for Marvel ... Uh, Mutant X is a Marvel property ... In theory at least.

Dini is currently writing scrips for Krypto. Or at least he wrote one.

Dini is also a writer on Lost.

If I may indulge in some bad taste gallows humor about recent events: Aquaman I take back eveything I said, now be a mensch and help out in New Orleans.

Yeah, White Fish would be damn useful there right now . . .

Interview with Dwayne McDuffie over at Comic Book Resources about JLU. Mild (very mild) spoilers about Season Three. Good read, imho.

It was a good read. Thanks for sharing it.

I just wanted to say I've been watching season 1 JL and am glad that the original members of the Justice League have been revamped a bit.

Superman with accented cheekbones is not pleasing at all... They all looked weird BTW.

Hasbro, I hear you about Aquaman and NO.

Timeline-wise, here's my take:

Year One - Batman: The Mask of the Phantasm (flashbacks)
21 year old Bruce Wayne becomes Batman

Year Three - B:TAS "Robin's Reckoning" (flashbacks)
13 year old Dick Grayson becomes Robin

Year Five - Teen Titans Seasons 1-4
15 year old Robin relocates to Jump City and forms the Teen Titans

Year Six - Teen Titans Season 5

Year Eight - Batman: The Animated Series
18 year old Robin returns to Gotham to go to college and begins adventuring with Batman (whose now 28) again.

Year Nine - Batman: The Animated Series
17 year old Barbara Gordon becomes Batgirl

Year Twelve - Batman: Gotham Nights/Superman: The Animated Series Seasons 1-2
22 year old Dick Grayson travels the world before returning to Gotham as "Nightwing". 13 year old Tim Drake becomes the new Robin. 25 year old Clark Kent makes his debut as Superman and begins forging working relationships with heroes like Batman (32), the Flash and Green Lantern.

Year Thirteen - Superman: The Animated Series Seasons 3-4

Year Fourteen - Justice League Season One
Superman, Batman, the Flash and Green Lantern join with Hawkgirl, Wonder Woman and J'Onn J'Onnz to form the Justice League

Year Fifteen - Justice League Season Two

Year Sixteen - Justice League Unlimited Season Three to Four
The Justice League has a recruitment drive and becomes a small army

Year Seventeen - Justice League Unlimited Season Five

Year Eighteen - Batman: Return of the Joker (flashbacks)
19 year old Tim Drake is tortured by the Joker and forced from the hero business. The Joker is killed.

Year Twenty - TT: How Long is Forever (flashforwards)
30 year old Nightwing is still adventuring solo.

Year Forty-Nine - JLU: Epilogue (flashbacks)
Realizing Batman will soon be too old to fulfill his function, Amanda Waller uses Cadmus nanotech to create a "son" for him - Terry McGinnis.

Year Fifty-Five: Batman Beyond: The Movie (flashbacks)
The 65 year old Batman retires when he realizes he's two old for the job.

Year Sixty-Five - Batman Beyond Seasons 1-2
16 year old Terry McGinnis tries to avenge his murdered father and winds up becoming the 75 year old Bruce Wayne's apprentice as the new Batman.

Year Sixty-Six - Batman: Return of the Joker, Batman Beyond Seasons 3-4
Batman (17) faces off against the resurrected Joker, who infected Tim Drake (65) with Cadmus nanotech all those years ago and has been slowly taking over his body. Batman also joins the Justice League.

Year Eighty-One - JLU: Epilogue
101 year old Bruce Wayne faces the end of his days, while the 32 year old Terry McGinnis learns he's really Bruce's son (kind of).

Teen Titans isn't part of the "Timm-verse" so it's pretty much irrelevant to the time-line of Batman/Superman/JL/JLU/BB.

Also, I find it kind of hard to believe that Tim in the Return of the Joker flashbacks is supposed to be 19, he looks much younger ...

Otherwise it looks pretty solid.

Not bad, although I wouldn't include Teen Titans in the Bruce Timm Universe. And I'm just skeptical that Bruce is actually over a hundred years old in Epilogue. I figure he's closer to 90.

Bruce Timm is the exec producer of Teen Titans, so that's why I count it:
http://www.tv.com/Teen%20Titans/show/13878/cast.html&flag=3

Also, Robin's TT costume is suspiciously 'wrong' in the same was as his B:TAS one (the green going up to his belt the 'R' being a blockier version). AAAND, when Starfire goes "fifteen year into the future" in the episode "How Long is Forever", Dick is wearing the same mask as in B:GN (which is different from his comic book one) and the same Nightwing logo (which, again, never appeared in the comics and only in B:GN). His wearing different boots and gloves than in B:GN but, then, it is supposed to be set sometime after that.

It does seem to be Timm's intention that Titans is set prior to B:TAS.



Yeah, I agree with you there. The trouble is that, since the Joker shows up in Justice League, the RotJ flashbacks must be from after the JLU eps -- so either Tim is a shortass who never gets any taller or else the whole of S:TAS, JL and JLU is set over about a year... Take your pick!



The trouble is the '65 years later' at the start of Epilogue. The only way I can read it is 65 years after JLU Season Four, so for him to be 90 in Epilogue he'd have to be 25 in JLU S4. Which is doable, but only if either (a) the whole of B:TAS, B:GN, S:TAS, JL, JLU, TT *and* Mask of the Phantasm was set over a four year period (remembering that we're explicitly told there's a three year gap between B:TAS and B:GN) or else Bruce was still a teenager when he became Batman and only about five years older than Dick Grayson...

In Batman Beyond...

Bruce did take a little dip in the lazarus pit.

TT is completely separate from the rest of the DCAU shows, as far as I know, in spite of having some of the same creative minds. As for Bruce being over a hundred in Epilogue, it's easy enough to assume that medical technology had improved to the point where the average life expectancy had increased significantly. Heck, they managed to clone a kidney for the guy.

Okay, just wanted to say I spotted Phil Lamarr(Green Lantarn) in the SHO series Barbershop. He plays the title character's brother, an insurance salesman and he absolutley is funny as hell!
I kept waiting to hear his "GL or other voices" and there wasn't one. You can hardly believe its the same person voicing, Static Shock, Samarui Jack, and so many others! Phil Lamarr is very talented.

Just wanted to share this info.

You screwed up on your math a bit. He would be 91, so samsnee would be right.

Another ep I haven't seen. I wish they'd just release the entire season on DVD already.

The events of Batman Beyond eps that have already aired in the U.S. (which I assume is all of them) are not spoilers.

Thanks.

I wouldn't count the TT episode for the simple reason that it was only a possible future that was then erased by Starfire's actions.

This may be a stupid question, but are you sure that Superman debuted so long after Batman? Is there any reason why S:TAS cannot be concurrent with B:TAS rather than Batman: Gotham Knights, other than the aesthetic differences b/w the 2 shows?

If he's 21 in Year One, then he'd be 101 in Year Eighty-One surely (21+80=101). You're right, though, that I messed up the math for Year Sixty-Five. He should be 85 in BB S1.



It's a possible future when Dick Grayson grew up to be a Nightwing using the same logo and mask which was unique to B:GN? Seems awfully conincidental, to me. The episode even gives an implied explantion as to why the ex-Titans aren't members of the Justice League (Cyborg's broken down, Starfire's left Earth, Raven's gone mad, Beast Boy got fat, Nightwing's Mr. "I work alone")

It seems to me that the reason most people have for not wanting to count TT as part of the Timmiverse (despite having the same creators, characters and continuity) is the character designs, which isn't enough for me personally to dismiss it.



When Superman meets Batman and Robin during S1 of S:TAS, not only is Batman wearing his B:GN costume, but Robin is Tim Drake, not Dick Grayson. The only way around it is to claim that Last Son of Krypton, the S:TAS pilot, is set a decade or so before the rest of S1.

They're both set in the DC universe so of course they have some of the same characters but I don't see them having the same continuity.

The producers of both shows have said in several interviews that the shows are unrelated.

Really? I haven't seen that. I have seen Bruce Timm repeatedly say that they can't do a crossover for various contractual issues (it seems to me that the rights to Robin/Titans have been separated from those for Batman/Justice League. Plus, of course, TT and JL aren't set in the same timezone) but not that they were completely separate.

And, of course, there are little nods to each other in the series. TT features Dr. Light I while JL, curiously, skip ahead to Dr. Light II. Static Shock (which is *definitely* in the JL universe) had the Teen Titans being namedropped as a superhero team. Batman had a blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo in TT (in a flashback where Dick Grayson makes his oath to be Batman's apprentice). And next season of Teen Titans features Kid Flash.

But, seriously, I'm not being snotty -- if Timm has made some argument settling statement somewhere, I'd be interested to see it.

It would definitely be interesting if TT and JL were part of the same universe, so we got to see the grown up Titans on JLU. Sadly, do to contractual issues I don't think that will ever happen.

One thing I do find confusing is how, according to Nuallain's timeline, TT is a prequel of sorts to B:TAS. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that, especially since in the comics the Titans are contemporaries to the League.

Well, the thing is that the Robin in Teen Titans is Dick Grayson (at one point he flashes back to the death of his parents on the trapeze and to a classic scene from the comics where he swears an oath on a bible before Batman; a time travel episode reveals he grows up to be Nightwing - in the same mask and logo as in B:GN; when a version of himself from the fifth dimension shows up he's called "Nosyarg Kcid"), but he's a version of Dick Grayson whose obviously much younger than in B:TAS.

In B:TAS he was a college student, but in TT he seems to be about 15. And the B:TAS episode "Robin's Reckoning" contains flashbacks showing that Dick was about 13 when he became Robin. So, if Dick is about 18-19 in B:TAS there's a six year gap of unrecorded Robin adventures for TT to fit in.


As for the comics, originally the Titans formed shortly after the league as a kind of sidekick's club (with Robin, Wonder Girl, Aqualad, Speedy and Kid Flash) but I think *post* Crisis they actually formed first, as Donna Troy subconciously tried to assemble forces to oppose the Titans of myth's plans for Earth.

Was Dick really 13 when he met Bruce for the first time? For some reason I thought he was no older than ten, but that may just be my memory playing tricks on me. In any case, the Robin with the real time problem is Tim Drake. He went from street urchin to skilled fighter almost instantly, and the ROTJ events completely muddle the age of the character.

Back on topic: although you may not know it from the complete lack of CN promos, the new season starts this Saturday, with two episodes from 10-11. This strategy of burning off episodes quickly with no promotion reeks of CN trying to end the show, but hopefully this is not the case. I suppose all good things must come to an end.

I honestly don't understand why CN doesn't seem to like this series. They don't promote it well, while they promote Zatch Bell and Naruto ad infinitum. They don't do multiple rebroadcasts of the episodes, but they repeat Teen Titans tons of times.

Why are they giving Justice League the Samurai Jack "treatment?" (Why did they give Samurai Jack the Samurai Jack "treatment" for that matter)

Back to the whole "Is Teen Titans part of the rest of the DC animated universe" question, I'm saying no. Now I'm not saying this because I dislike Teen Titans, I love that show in fact, I just don't think the shows share the same kind of vibe. The fact that Teen Titans is DC just like Justice League is just not a good enough reason for me to link the two, that would be like saying the Krypto cartoon series is linked to Justice league. Now I've never watched the Krypto cartoon series and for all I know it's a fantastic series, but is a talking dog with a talking cat side kick really going to fit into the universe as portrayed in Justice league? Talking gorillas, on the other hand, are just fine:)

It really does seem bizarre that CN gives this show such low regard. I'd understand why they might not want to keep producing it if the costs are high, but once you've shelled out the money, why not try to make it back by promoting the hell out of the program? Do they really just want to have 24 hours of anime and anime-like programming? I'm not anti-anime, but I'd much rather watch JLU than 3 hrs of Naruto, no offense to Naruto fans.

Ok, so guest shots this coming season... anyone have any they'd like to see? Personally, I'd like to see Firestorm. I remember him being on the old Superfriends show a couple of times, and it'd be interesting to see what they do with his character.

Blue Devil, the original

There's a stronger argument for Krypto to be included in JLU continuity than TT. Whereas TT we only have common characters, in Krypto we actually have common art design. Krypto's Metropolis is the Metropolis of STAS, right down to the skyway streets and the design of LexCorp. Same goes for Krypto's Krypton appearing just as it did in "Last Son of Krypton". We have no such design commonalities in TT.

I think it's been explicitly stated the current Teen Titans toon is it's own universe and not connected to any other series or canon.

Except for Robin's character design [which is as it was in B:TAS and has never been in the comics]
And Nightwing's character design [which uses the mask and logo from B:GN which were never seen in the comics]

Other than that, the fact that Jump City doesn't look like Gotham City doesn't prove much.



The design of LexCorp is actually taken from the comics, so that may not prove anythign. The design of the Daily Planet, however, being the same in both would be a good indicator. Though if we include a show Timm had nothing to do with in the Timmiverse, we're going to need a new name for it!



Yes, a few people have said they think that. It certainly would be an end to the argument if there was a link for that. The only quotes I've found say they can't do a crossover for contractual reasons.

Actually, both Robin and Nightwing's designs, while not exactly the same, are very similar to the way they've been done in the comics since the late 90s. Simplified and less detailed, but Robin's design has been like that since Tim Drake became Robin just before "Knightfall" and Nightwing's has been like that since they relaunched the current volume of his own series.

Two new shows tomorrow night!!!!

30-something hours and counting.....

Tell me about it. I'm taping Naruto, One Piece, JLU, JLU, Inuyasha, FMA, Scryed, and Champloo. Even if I skip Champloo, that's 2 and 1/2 hours of TV to catch up on. (On top of those, Bebop restarts too.)

Yay! More Justice League Unlimited! Time flies in college, faster than it ever did in school.

Can I ask a sarcastic sounding, but not meant to be sarcastic question? What exactly is the merit of trying to tie TT to JL?

Clearly it was meant to be hinted within the same time frame as JL and Static Shock, which makes it the same universe 'technically'. But why spend so much time debating the whys and hows. Shouldn't that be like fan fiction territory. Put that knowlegde and creativity to good use.

I can't see any connection between the Teen Titans world and the JLU world.

The animation styles are different, the storytelling styles are different, and there hasn't been any mention of the Justice League, or any appearances by any of the Justice League members or any super-villains from the JLU series. (And conversely, there has been no mention of the Titans on JLU)

I'd love to see Hitman (and he had a Superman crossover in which Superman even seemed like a nice guy) but it ain't gonna happen. Tommy will mess up their rating. And he's kind of low-powered. Though, not compared to Vigilante. They could do what they do in some of the comics and have him turned away from the League, though remain friendly.