That doesn't fly with me. Wasn't it Luthor who helped them against the Justice Lords? Wasn't he trying to build that city to give people homes? He was doing good deeds and had (seemingly) turned over a new leaf. Just because we as viewers knew it was a hoax doesn't mean Superman should operate under that premise. From the information he had, Luthor was attempting to do good. To paint him as a supervillain while being so trusting of Shayera is way more naïve than anything CM did.

Gonna have to disagree to disagree there, then. I carefully chose the phrase "actively and repeatedly sought the good". Luthor got a pardon out of the JLords incident, not to mention he was saving his own life, so it's not like he was seeking the greater good. A few "good" things that are self serving hardly make up for all the evil he's done.

Just because Superman may not have had any evidence that the housing development was a hoax, it would be fairly naive of him not to be expecting some duplicity from Lex. It's completely out of character for Lex, and Supes knows it. I have a problem with the way he handled the "bomb", but I'm not going to knock him for believing that leopards, particularly ones named Lex, don't change their spots.

Lex has little to nothing to counteract his years of evilness. Shayera has a lot of good things to balance the scales in her favor, and a personal relationship that allows Superman to judge her honesty for himself.

When was Lex racist? Arrogant, evil, scheming, borderline-pointlessly malevolent, but racist?

Every time he calls Superman "alien". It's true, of course, but it's no different than me walking up to an African-American and condescendingly calling him "black man".

I don't think you understand. I'm all for Superman being skeptical of Luthor, but he shouldn't be hostile towards him. After all, that's what led to his overreaction about the bomb. It's possible to expect the worst while hoping for the best. Furthermore, Captain Marvel's speech applies directly to the Shayera situation ("I think it's great that someone like [her] can change into a good guy"). To be perfectly honest, I agree with the Leaguers who had a healthy amount of skepticism for her (Batman, Wonder Woman, Vixen, etc.). Come to think of it, that whole diatribe sounded like Superman channeling Batman.


Don't you think you're being a little naïve about this? Separating the character from Shayera in the comics, this Hawkgirl has always been a spy. She's been keeping tabs on them while knowing the Thanagarians are plotting to take over the planet. How does he know all her so-called good deeds weren't merely her way of keeping her cover? He doesn't.

Yeah, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want it to seem like I'm saying they should trust Luthor. I'm saying it's silly to completely accept Shayera while lecturing Captain Marvel that Luthor shouldn't even have the opportunity to prove he's changed.

Naivety isn't a character trait I call to mind, generally.

They have a relationship. He knows Luthor's actions, but I don't think he would claim to really know or understand Luthor as a person. On the flip side, he was good friends with Shayera, and while he was probably shocked and hurt to discover her secret, he probably feels that he has a better "read" on the legitimacy of her... conversion? Rehabilitation?

His hostility towards Luthor was out of character and over the top, but I don't think that should negate his judgement in the case of Shayera.

His intern, who happened to be gay, was severly beaten and left in a coma. Kyle found out that his intern knew that he was GL all along and kept his secret.

His intern was a good kid, who didn't hurt anyone, but was beaten because he was gay. So Kyle lost his belief that humanity was worth saving. That it was worth the pain and anguish. So he gave John a spare ring, and went to do the job of the other 3599 Sectors of Space.

That's one reason why I loved Kyle. He kept his humanity. And was grounded in his humanity. For all his good deeds, Superman is for all intents and purposes exactly what Lex calls him.... alien.

That's exactly my point. It seemed that Superman wasn't so pissed about the content, or the context. Only who Captain Marvel spoke kindly of. Had it been anyone but Lex, Superman probably wouldn't have lost his shit.

Superman came off looking like a supreme ass, especially given that CM had a perfectly reasonable solution to the bomb. Something that could have been accomplished while SUPERMAN was trashing the homes of those children.

Thanks for the info, Hannibal Khan.

No problem. I think it made for a great story arc... as Kilowog was brought back, we met the planetary GL... and saw a lot more of Ganthet.

The bad.... was of course Jenny.

You do not understand our way, hyoo-MAHN!

I've read with interest the debate on Capt Marvel's "endorsement" of Luthor. Someone said it wasn't an endorsement, which I totally agree with and think is exactly the point (sorry to whomever said it for not crediting you; it was 2 pages back). CM said "I think it's great that someone like Luthor can run for President". That is not to say "I'll vote for him and you should too." Superman was pissed at CM just because it was Luthor. When CM said "People can change....can't they?" Yes they can, just not this particular one.

I am of the opinion that we're all bad, we're all flawed and imperfect. And for anyone to run around arguing over who is more perfect than anyone else, it's kind of like watching fleas argue over who's the tallest.

I don't think that's the point at all. This isn't about the Fall, or Original Sin or the human condition. Those are abstracts that I happen to agree with you on. But on the details of how people act in real life, there is such a thing as being a good person and doing the right thing and being bad and doing wrong.

It's a matter of the character of Lex Luthor compared to the character of Shayera, and whose character Superman is more likely to trust to be out for himself at all times and whose is more likely to be sincerely rehabilitated and reformed.

I hope they show a current hero who used to be a villain at sometime during the series. Like the Pied Piper, he's cool.

I saw that it was mentioned awhile back that Shayera was always a spy helping the Thanagarians take over the Earth, but is that true? It is definite that Shayera was a Thanagarian spy, but I don't think it was always the Thanagarian plan to take over earth, was it? I thought Shayera only found out about the plan to take over earth a little bit before it actually happened, and even then she wasn't aware of the ultimate plan to destroy the earth for an space highway, or whatever.

I agree-- while Shayera may have been there as an Intelligence Operative, her actions serving the League were her own. She acted as a hero many times. And when she learned Talak's true plan, she really didn't waver at all in getting that info to the League, and then going up against Talak.

I think there's a big difference in trusting someone who had understandable divided loyalties, and someone who's proven himself to be a habitual, career criminal, adept at keeping his nose clean.

I don't have that episode on my TiVo anymore, but I'm pretty sure she thought the plan was to take over the earth. That's why she went along with it until she discovered they really wanted to destroy it. Wasn't her status as a member of the League instrumental in defeating them?


Again, if her ultimate goal was to help take over the earth, the true intent of her acts of heroism is suspect. Remember Terra of the Teen Titans? They can certainly give her a chance, but none of them should be blindly trusting her.

That made it easier to figure out thier weaknesses but it's not like she went there to join the league and betray them from within. The league wasn't formed until after they drove off the alien invaders that destroyed the martians.

Besides, it's not as if the leagues weaknesses are hard to figure out. Everyone knows Superman's weaknesses, GL is powerless against against yellow *rolls eyes*, Batman and Flash are just normal guys with gadgets and superspeed so the only one they would have probably had problems with was the Martian Manhunter and they didn't even know he was there when she showed up.

GL is not powerless against yellow: if he were Sinestro would have vaporized him in a second. That's a comic book weakness, but to compensate in the cartoon the power of the ring seems much more limited. Oh, and while the League's weaknesses are farily well known, it's not THAT easy to take them out: otherwise, they'd all be dead.

You're right. She just went there to betray the earth. Once she joined the League, she started reporting back information about them in addition to info about the planet.

If she'd really wanted to betray the Earth to maximum effect she'd have let the league members get killed during the many oportunities that presented themselves. It's easier to invade a world when it's heros are dead or maimed and yet she helped and saved them on numerous occasions.

Hawk Girl went to Earth to judge their defensive capabilities in case of a Gordanian attack. She thought that Thanagar was only taking Earth over to help protect the planet (by building the energy Shield) and then they'd be on their way.

...which means we should add stupidity to her list of bad traits. I mean, it's not like Superman, Green Lantern, and the rest of the League would actually be useful in defending against a Gordanian attack.

I'd say that calling her stupid is a little harsh. Naive maybe,it would depend on whether or not they'd done this sort of thing before.

"We're going to take over the planet for its own good" sounds stupid to me. She could've easily convinced the League to ally themselves with Thanagar to protect earth.

Hawkgirl is military, rule 1 is that you don't question the chain o' command. The boss thinks that imprisoning the JL is the best method, then you don't stop to question why, you say, "As you command," and get to work. We see, more or less, a very similar situation with Captain Atom in JLU, his country tells him to attack Superman and he does it.

The Justice League fighting them and/or asking questions would've slowed their progress down a great deal. Remember, they were working with the League until Batman started sneaking around and got caught, from Hawkgirl's perspective the League attacked first. Imprisoning them, building the shield, and then leaving would still probably seem like the quickest route.

I think part of the reason why Hawkgirl was naive about the Thangarian military's true plan is because she believed correctly that their main concern was the Gordanians. They weren't interested in taking over the Earth to expand their empire; they weren't there to mine Earth's natural resources or exploit humans for slave labor; they weren't there as religious zealots or political fanatics; and they weren't there because they enjoyed killing and conquering other races. They really were there because of the Gordanians.

By-the-by, seems CN is suddenly running JL (not JLU) on Fridays from 2-3am. Tonight was the Atlantis and Aquaman episodes where he loses his hand.

That Aquaman episode was not half bad, by the standards of Season 1 JL. Still had some stuff that bothered me, like the fact it took the League WAY too long to capture a C-list villain like Deadshot. Also, there's no way Wonder Woman would let Aquaman shove her and get away with it.

And did anyone else find it bizarre that Aquaman cut his own hand off with his belt buckle?

Does anyone know when the new season is scheduled to begin? I can't wait to see the newer (and hopefully deadlier) incarnation of the Legion of Doom.

Someone on the Toonzone forums said the next season starts sometime in the fall. I have no idea if that's accurate or not.

Back to the whole Wally West's personality issue. Writers like JLI's Keith Giffen preferred to make the Flash a dumbass post-crisis. Mark Waid changed him when he became writer explained it as Wally subconciously realizing he couldn't possibly compare with Barry Allen to people, so he might as well just act like a total a-hole.

Why bizarre? It reminded me of the hiker who cut his own arm off with a pocket-knife to get free from a rock that fell on him.

Rewatched an ep last night when Vixen and Vigilante join Hawkgirl off-planet and get ambushed. Gotta say Vix and Vig were being extra-assholes with their constant asides to HG for being untrustworthy all the while preaching about teamwork and trust. We got it, you still resent her, but could you save the lectures for a more convenient time? Then Vig asks Vix to use her jungle powers and Vix gets all snitty. "What makes you think I know anything about the jungle? I have an apartment in Chelsea." Well, the fact that you have a kind of jungle power and wear a kind of jungle costume does send a certain message. Jeez. The episode should have ended with the powerhouses rescuing them all because none of them could work together as a team.

That was odd for me because I couldn't figure out why that team was put together. Vixen and Hawkgirl sure their powers make them useful in a search. Vigilante? I can only think he was wandering by when Jonn was thinking who to send.

IIRC J'Onn actually said Vigilante and Vixen where chosen because they were behind on the number of hours they were supposed to spend in space. It seems as if each Leaguer needs to be 'rated' to work in different environments and have to spend a set number of hours in space, undersea etc.

Agreed about Vixen... I'm also curious as to why she isn't able to fly. If she can take on the traits of animals, surely flight is one of them.

Saw Once and Future Thing pt 1 last night. Overall, good ep, and glad to see they didn't cheapen any of the JLU'ers powers just to make the fight more even. I guess if they had brought Supes along, it would have been a short ep. But Static in pt 2? Why do they keep insisting on putting him in this continuity?

Trying to increase the number of Static fans? Although once they've stuck him in then they might as well keep using him, it is good continuity.

I HAAATE Static.

Plus, the fact that that show got continued, and Batman Beyond didn't... bugs.

I wouldn't have a problem so much if it didn't seem like adding him to the JLU universe was an afterthought to his own series. In his own series, I remember there being lame episodes featuring hot-at-the-moment teen pop stars... so by association, one could assume that these same celebs exist in JLU, which would mean it is bordering close to campy SuperFriends territory.

Me too. I would rather watch Jake Long: American Dragon, and Captain Marvel start their own superhero team since. Preferably with each needing subtitles to understand each other.

"Yo, dawg, slow down, I'm still readin' your subtitles!"

Not really a "jungle" power per se. She can mimic the abilities of any animal on Earth. She can mimic the night-vision of a sewer rat, or the acute sense of smell of a dog.



The comic Vixen can fly, but the animated versions of these characters seem to be more limited. The cartoon Vixen may not be able to fly.

I read somewhere that the writers just didn't think about Vixen being able to fly.

I used to dislike Static, but he's grown on me a lot. I especially like the Static/Gears team.

Really don't like Vixen.

I've only seen Static in episodes where he's alongside the JLU (his own series) or the crossover where he was older and on JLU.

He's okay.

Welcome to the wonderful world of animation. They both got the standard 52 episodes, which is usually when most cartoons suspend production in this era. I heard that Static's budget was exhausted because they couldn't get a toy licensing deal. In any case, both shows were screwed on the WB because they weren't Japanimation shows, so you could see it coming. I'm sure that networks are thrilled to just air redubbed Japanese cartoons: it has to be a lot cheaper and a lot quicker than creating a new series, and ultimately the networks are all about profit.

Static's JLU appearence was OK, although I made it a point to catch his Batman Beyond crossover and vastly preferred his look there. It's too bad he didn't get a special death scene: being sucked into the light was kind of anticlimatic, especially considering what happened to Terry.

I've said it before Vixen should change her name toRebound Girl.

I think Hawkgirl will eventualy get some respect once more people realize she made the tough choice of sending one planet to occupation to save another. I don't think she's so much as dumb or naive she had a praerorian upbringing and it took her a long time to overcome that. Besides some moral ambiguity is always welcome for Superheroes.

Is Static a rip-off of Black Lightning (or Black Vulcan, or whatever the hell he's called)? Does Black Lightning exist at all in the JLU universe?

He does, but now he's one of the Ultimen and he's called Jolt or Bolt or Volt or Juice or... you know, I never bothered to even figure out their names.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the impetus for Static.

There are two similarities between Static and Black Lightning: their skin color and the fact that their powers are electrically based. That's it. Everything else, and I do mean everything else is different.

For example, Virgil uses his powers in many, many more different ways than Jeff Pierce ever did. (V = Static, JP = BL). And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Getting back to JLU (or at least the animated universe) Black Lightning will never, ever appear in a cartoon. If Black Lightning ever appeared in any media other than an actual comic book Tony Isabella would be owed money. And they've gone to great lengths (including inventing the Black Lightning rip-off in Super Friends) to avoid the expense of paying Tony for the use of his creation in other media.

Can we go back to the idea that the Leaguers have quotas like "Hours in Space" they have to fill? I would love a performance review scene where the originals are trying to counsel people like Question and Green Arrow on how they can be better superheroes.

I think I might like it too, Stephen, but I think, given the way in which the Founders behaved (or maybe just the way they were written) this season, it would come off very high and mighty or hypocritical.