What are Flash's villains?

apologies for a replies to a couple disparate threads, but...

recommended flash stories - mark waid's run is great - almost anything you can get your hands on from then is worth reading. i'd also recommend the brief morrison/millar run (starting with issue 130, i think) - only a year of stories, so perhaps not as overwhelming as waid's run. they play up the (often dodgy) science aspects of the flash quite nicely. not sure if that's collected anywhere, though. actually, this run includes a courtroom based issue (to catch another thread). #135 focuses on the villains claiming they were provoked by the heroes who stopped them.

gen. eiling - in the comics, eiling becomes pretty definitively villainous (he puts his brain inside the shaggy man's body and runs amok), so, if they feel like lifting from the comics more, there's a perfect chance for simmons to play a villain.

The Flash's rogues gallery (yes, they do call them "rogues") includes/included Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Mirror Master, Heat Wave, Captain Boomerang, the Top, and the Trickster.

For next season, I'd like to see Ben Edlund write a story. The man's a genius, why isn't he getting more work? I certainly haven't been quiet about what I'd prefer to happen; pare down the third stringers, stop making people into dicks in poorly written 'message' arcs, don't end other series on JLU's dime.

Hal is back? He went nuts, killed 8 million people, the Guardians, the GL Corps, became Parallax, somehow ended up as the Spectre, and now he's just there again as Green Lantern? Green Arrow was miraculously resurrected too. What is with the rampant retconning?

I think Astro City had an arc about masked men testifying, etc. I can't remember specifically, but it was a lawyer-centric storyline. A friend of mine picked up the first issue of the arc for me and I remember thinking it was well done.

Topic: I really hate the change in Wally's personality from his Teen Titans days to the Flash. Everyone laughs about how light hearted he is but I can't reconcile the buffoonish Flash with the stick-up-the-ass-serious-buzzkill TT Kid Flash. Was the 180 degree personality switch ever explained?

No love for Zoom? He's the most tragic and deranged of them. And he's scarier than the Joker.

I'm so glad they didn't fuck Kyle over like most of the Hal fanboys thought they were going to. To me, Kyle was the most interesting DC Hero. He even went as far to learn about being a hero from the other big ones, just to gain trust in his own abilities.

Plus his ring constructs.... about 1 billion times better than Hal's or John's.

Although I have permanent hatred for Jenny Hayden though. What a whore.

Brainiac 5 couldn't even figure out a way to defeat the Sun Eater, something Reed could have easily done... because Sun Eater < Galactus.

It was explained in Green Lantern: Rebirth by Geoff Johns (who is apparently writing every monthly DC book). I like Kyle just fine, but I'll readily admit to being a Hal fanboy. He and Barry have always been my favorites, so I need at least one of them. Thanks again, DC!


Yeah, even though I mentioned him earlier, that was a big oversight. I love the Reverse Flash. Speaking of Zoom, how great is the Flash costume that you can reverse the colors and it still looks hot?


I don't think he's a buffoon normally. He is in JLU, but I think that's just because they decided not to use Kyle for diversity reasons. Anyway, I think the combination of coming from a pretty bad home situation, growing up, and Barry's death would explain any personality differences.

War Games is a pass, a weak story that it too big and bloated for its own good.


Turns out that Parallax was a yellow "fear monster" that lived inside the power battery, and it possessed Hal and made him do all those dastardly things ... Yeah.

I thought it was understood that Parallax was just a codename for Ron Marz. Heh.

One of the most AWFUL retcons ever.

Yeah. What ever happened to Hal just having a fucking menal break, going batshit crazy, and getting better? I thought (and hoped) that The Final Night would end Hal's story on a high note.

And I'd like to know what asshole decided that Kyle doing his fucking job as a Green Lantern warranted being cuckholded.

It made more sense than the story it retconned away, so I think we came out ahead in the end.

How did Hal going crazy when Coast City was destroyed not make sense? In fact, it was the first time in forever ANYTHING Hal did made sense.

Zoom, Savage, and Grodd don't count as part of the Rogues' Gallery because they're so much cooler than the rest of the Rogues. They're in a class of their own.

Re: Hal as the Spectre, I never saw him in his own book - did he inflict any actual vengeance, or was he just some kind of angelic retcon machine, giving Wally his secret identity back, bringing 1970's Ollie back from the dead, etc.?

On topic, the Spectre would make for an awesome couple of episodes. Let him decide he needs vengeance on the big 7, and let them all come to grips with their sins.

Hal being upset about Coast City is the last part of the story that does make sense. Too bad it was at the beginning. For starters, the entire premise of Hal collecting power rings is beyond ridiculous. Every GL knows that more rings don't equal more power. Then we see Hal slaughter most of the Corps—including Kilowog! Hal killing Kilowog is like Superman killing Jimmy Olsen. It wouldn't happen. Ever. Hal lost so many people who were dear to him, but Ron Marz wants me to believe he'd coldly kill some of the only friends he has left? Come on! Then it keeps getting worse. Crazy, deranged Hal did all these unspeakable acts allegedly to get more power. When he's finally about to absorb the battery, he gives it all up to fight Sinestro with his bare hands? WTF ever! Those are just some of the bigger points. I've tried to forget as much as I could of that POS.

True, but I reckon that the more he had, the more power he felt he had, thus his Willpower was increased.

And Hal obviously wasn't in his right mind. Though it really spits on Kyle to have Hal come back and be some kind of sainted GL who must be praised. At best, Hal should have to work to get the kind of respect that Kyle has now. Earn it back.

Like I said, I like Kyle. He was the only good thing to come out of that debacle IMO.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Rebirth (other than the end result and that great scene with Hal punching Batman). Still, it looks like the best story ever written next to Identity Crisis. Sadly, now that it's permeated every DC book, it's harder and harder to pretend they just forgot to put "Elseworlds" on the front page. Thank God for JLU: DC goodness without all the crap.

Crisis on Infinate Earths was very awesome.

How and when does John Stewart fit into the Green Lantern chronology? Did he come before or after Kyle?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the answer to that would be "before, got hurt, got better, but kept on being GL during Kyle's Lantern-ness"

Green Lantern ain't my thing, (except for Kilowog, okay?? Kilowog rocks) though, so I might have messed that up.

John didn't stay a GL during Kyle's tenure... until Kyle decided that as THE Green Lantern, with no corps, he probably ought to tool around the galaxy and take care of some places besides just Earth. So he essentially made a ring for John, had him deal with Earth & the League, and he and Jenny did some planet hopping for a while.

That make me SOOO angry.



GAAARRCHGGKKK!! Must. Kill. Writer.

Untill Jenny decided that cheating on her boyfriend was the right idea.

It was more about Kyle not being sure the people of Earth really deserved saving. It was after a particularly nasty incident where his intern got hospitalized, and Kyle lost his faith in humanity. So he decided to go and help the other space sectors.

One thing that ensured my hatred for Superman, is when Kyle was Ion, and he was helping poor nations, feeding the hungry and fixing their land and shit. Superman pulled the high and mighty act, the "we can't help them do that" act. Because having super powers isn't about improving the lives of those who can't help themselves. At least according to Superman.

Actually that's a fair enough philosophy for Supes to espouse. But who made him the ultimate arbiter of how other superhumans should behave? Superman can choose not to do such things, but he's got no right to step in and stop others from exercising their choice.

I haven't actually read the story, but based on that description it sounds more like Superman saying the super powered folks can't do everything for them. There's a difference between catching people falling out of buildings and feeding the entire third world. Humanity has to stand on its own, not become dependent on higher powers to fix every problem, especially ones that would be around without the superpowered set. Think about war: why not just have Superman keep all weapons locked up unless an alien threat comes along, at which point he'll give them out until the threat is over.

Furthermore, why not just eliminate the vast majority of the law system and have J'onn determine whether or not a criminal is guilty? He's considered an honorable guy, and no human can block his telepathy. Just have him do a quick scan, and not only can J'onn get the truth in seconds he can also tell the judge the exact degree of remorse the defendant is feeling. Heck, with WW's lasso of truth the two of them could easily settle most cases.

Which, again, is a fair enough philosophy for someone to embrace. But why does such a person get to dictate to others and make them follow it too, even if they disagree. Especially when they don't have anything to back up their authority with other than an unstated "I'll beat the shit out of you if you don't do as I say".

For me the issue is less about the rights and wrongs in actively solving mankind's 'regular' problems and not just the emergencies and more about Superman's right to parlay his figurehead status in the superhero community into actual authority to order people around as if he was an elected leader and not simply the physically most powerful.

The former is debatable and an issue of personal choice. The latter can be summed up as: Superman is a dick.

Back when I read The New TT--in the early to mid 80's--Wally was under Raven's mind control because she needed him to be part of the team to defeat Trigon so she made him think he loved her.

I seem to remember his personality being explained that way too but it's been many, many years since I read those comics.

When has Superman ever forced the League into doing what he wanted? He's certainly pleaded his cases and tried to convince other Leaguers to go along with something, but he's never physically forced anyone to do what he says.



People follow Superman and trust Superman because he's an icon. He's the greatest of them all. The media and general public made Superman into the icon he is. Superman never asked for it. All Superman ever asked for was for people not to be afraid of him, and that he was here to help, not harm.

Does that mean Superman is the perfect, all-knowing leader? No of course not. Superman is not infallible. He makes mistakes. And not everyone on Earth follows him with absolute devotion either. Batman, Wonder Woman, J'Onn and some of the other Leaguers have disagreed with Superman on many occasions.

I get the Superman hate, I really do.

But Superman didn't order Kyle/Ion to lay off. He showed Kyle/Ion the negative consequences of taking that extra step - of fixing the "larger" problems instead of just "saving someone from a burning building." Then Kyle/Ion made his own decision.

Sure, he sounded superior doing it - but that's more because Superman has much more experience than Kyle/Ion does, not because Superman has/was exercising any "authority" over Kyle.

You want to hate Supes? Fine. But he wasn't written as a dick in this particular storyline.

Raven's mind control doesn't really explain the personality switch - she mojo-ed him because he was in an "I don't want to be a superhero, what are we even doing here?" phase, and her mind control didn't change that, so there's no reason to think he'd be happy-go-lucky after she let him go. (As I recall, he just got even more mopey once he found out).

My guess is that (1) Wally grew out of his teenage mopiness; (2) he realized that his powers were (a) really cool and (b) the best thing he had going for him; and (3) thanks to his powers, he's had a lot of time to read self-help books.

True. He more just told Kyle that it was probably a bad idea, and to think about what he was doing-- which was essentially making worlds (not just Earth, but across the galaxy) dependent on him to solve everything.

Also, as Ion? Kyle could probably mop the floor with Supes.

Why is Superman considered the best of the best of superheros? He's not the most powerful, he's not the most determined, he didn't have to work to get his powers (he gets them from the sun instead of training/earning them) and half the time he seems to be a giant hypocrit.

He ripped Captain Marvel a new one for talking to reporters. Why he should get to decide the political leanings of the League remain unclear. Green Arrow really should have been there for that one.

TimeMonkey, you might be confusing the Smallville and JLU asshats with the canon Superman, who isn't quite a "giant hypocrit".

He's considered the "best" because, at least as far as the comics, he was the first of the current generation. He galvanized and inspired most of the heros currently working today. In the comics, he really is the Big Blue Boy Scout, and while he's had a couple of bad days (killing the Kryptonian criminals and going insane from guilt, the Superman Rex plotline), by and large he has been the truest defender of life and liberty Earth has ever seen. I would argue that in the comics, he is the most determined to do the right thing. He may not be the most powerful, but at the level of power he, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel operate at, getting into who's most powerful is really just a pissing contest.

And no, he didn't have to work for his powers, but he has demonstrated in his character that he is worthy of them.



Another key factor in the change is that the Crisis cured him of whatever disease he had as "Kid Flash". Up to the point when Barry died, Wally's power was killing him, which would definitely be a downer, I think. Crisis ends with Wally remarking that he's been healed, and that probably went a long way to improving his overall outlook on his powers and life.

His power was killing him for all of two issues of Teen Titans (I think they were attempting to differentiate him from the adult Flash, and to explain not using the character much at the time, as they had decided to sideline him and have him leave the team with his then-girlfriend, who wasn't AS messed up as Raven, and stole the super-speed-kills idea from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agent's Lightning, who aged every time he used his super-speed.). Wally had been a 'regular' guy for years, with an intact family, no girlfriend troubles, a cool super-power, and no dissent with his mentor. Hardly 'mopey', but pretty serious about going to college and establishing a non-super-hero life. The post-Crisis change made him an entirely new character, but the fact that the costume made it appear that the same Flash had always existed made the transition pretty easy to take, I guess.

He ripped CM a new one because CM didn't seem to realize that what he said could easily be interpreted as support for Luthor, and the JLU's stance is to remain neutral. Superman going down to Lois Lane and telling her to quote him on how much he hates Luthor without directly saying it would be just as bad. Oh, and the fact that the rest of the founding members were there indicated that they gave their approval for the verbal slapdown, so it was hardly a unilateral decision. Supes barging into Cadmus and rescuing the Question, OTOH, was a unilateral decision, regardless of his "off the books" statement.

The decision to address the situation may not have been unilateral, but do we really know that what Superman said and/or how he said it was approved by the other members? Didn't Batman tell Superman that he was too hard on Captain Marvel?

That's an issue with his delivery, not the message. We have no evidence the League disagreed with the intent of Supes words.

Neutral like Superman acted towards Lex? I thought the whole episode was underlining how irrational and non-neutral Superman was acting.

That's the rub though. If you have powers, and can ease the needless hunger and suffering of people, then why not do it? Are you not worse than the super villains if you cannot do something so non-intrusive? You're not subverting soverignty, or anything, other than helping people eat, and making sure their land can grow food.

That's much different than taking away the world's weapons.

To me, it was Superman being a dick. I mean especially considering Superman's own hypocrisy. Honestly, Kyle as Ion wasn't really doing anything out of line, he was moving with compassion to do something that was easily within his abilities. Plus he wasn't expecting anything in return. He didn't expect them to worship or stop fighting. He just wanted to boost their chances of living a good life.

Which you might say is a lot more than Superman is good for.

In a heavy handed, because I don't do this, you shouldn't either way. And showed Kyle in a BIASED fashion, that ONLY showed Superman's point of view.

Personally, it pissed me off because people were suffering, and all Superman could really be bothered with are supervillains and Lois.

Especially when it was shown that Superman was pissed off because he had nothing to do in the issue before.

He's also more than willing to point out in a holier than thou fashion if someone else is doing the "right thing" but not in the Superman way.

What's to say materializing food packets to people who were starving, or making the earth fertile again isn't the "right thing". It's certainly a better use of super powers than I typically see Clark doing.

I guess nobody else really has a Jenny hate going on.

His delivery was dismissive and disrespectful, but his message was hypocritical. If the League agrees with him then they're hypocrites as well.

Superman: We don't play favorites, we don't sell deodorant on television, and we don't get involved with politics.
Captain Marvel: Yes, sir.
S: And we certainly don't endorse supervillains for the presidency!
CM: Now, now wait a minute. I never said that I was endorsing Luthor, just that I think it's great that someone like him can change into a good guy.
S: Life just isn't that simple.
CM: Well maybe it is sometimes! Maybe people can change! [Looks around at the founders' blank stares] Can't they?

The fact that one of those blank stares is from Hawkgirl says it all. Yes, Superman is a hypocrite.

And Flash has no business acting like he doesn't do commercials. I think they even showed him flinching.

They did.

Biased? The cults of Ion that'd sprung up basically overnight? Kyle already saw all the good he was doing - but he was ignoring all of the bad.


Sometimes, suffering is something you can fix. Sometimes, it's something you shouldn't, because people need to learn. Kyle/Ion was fixing things to the point where he wasn't letting people live on their own. Superman never has done that, and for good reason. As dependent as people are on Superman, they're only dependent upon him to deal with immediate threats. Kyle/Ion's actions were making people dependent upon his powers for all kinds of other aspects of everyday life. Once people surrender that kind of control, they don't ever take it back, and that was Superman's point. Frankly, he's right.


Doesn't reduce the correctness of his point. Once you make everyone dependent upon you, they become lazy. Stagnant. They don't learn for themselves, or live for themselves. Kyle/Ion was doing that.

Yes, I will agree that Superman was too harsh when he chewed out Captain Marvel. However the reason why he said it is 100% valid. A League member giving a public endorsement for any political candidate or organization is wrong and potentially dangerous.

Your problem seems to be with Superman saying it. Would you have still objected if Batman or Wonder Woman had given Marvel the same lecture?

Learn to deal with land that you can't grow food on? Or warlords who deprive children of food? That's definately something that should happen.

And Ion wasn't responsible for all the cults of following. He certainly didn't encourage them.

It wasn't an endorsement. It was praise that even evil people can do good.

I'm definately not seeing that. Making it so crops can grow where people were starving because the LAND WOULD NOT GROW FOOD.... doesn't seem like it was replacing people's everyday life. There's not a damned thing a person could have done to grow food where it won't grow. That's not dependence, that's fixing a situation that prevents people from surviving.

Though I will admit that he was heavy handed on that distant planet that he and Jenny visited. Though it probably did avert the people from completely killing themselves off for stupidity's sake. But it's really no different than Superman's Reign of Supermen.

Superman's so detached from everyday living, I really don't see how he even has a marriage. That's one thing I did love about Kyle. He wasn't detached from the world he lived in. He didn't have a fortress of solitude.

What happened? Why would he lose faith in humanity?


I really wish we had a comic store somewhere in the general area.

You're not that naive, Hannibal. You know how easily a statement like that can be interpreted by the media as an endorsement.

Yes. I'll explain why below.



Aside from Superman's nasty tone, this is my big problem with what he said. He should've been giving a "what you say can easily be misconstrued, misinterpreted, or twisted" lecture. I would have no problem with that. Unfortunately, it's clear that Superman's bias against Luthor is a big reason for his attitude. Yes, Luthor has tried to take over the world before. How can Superman smugly tell someone that Luthor can't change when he's sitting with someone who duplicitously tried to do the very same thing—especially considering he personally voted her back into the League? Everyone realizes that Captain Marvel didn't intentionally endorse Luthor for president. Well, Superman (and some League members) actually have endorsed Hawkgirl after the entire planet was against her. She'd been lying to them for years. Why is she worthy of the benefit of the doubt while Luthor isn't?

Because she has actively and repeatedly sought the good. Because of her ultimate attitude and actions. Because she has a history with Superman that is not an unending litany of rivalry, bitterness, racism and "Me at any cost!" supervillainy.