Aquaman wins over Namor for never going through a pathetic "living on the streets in a daze" phase, followed by an ongoing (and even more pathetic) "constantly hitting on a married woman" phase.

The brilliantly named Supersoldier, which saw Steve Rogers being augmented with DNA taken from a dead fetus found in a spaceship crashed in a Kansas cornfield.

Hard to top Dr. Strangefate, crazynames-wise, though.

Amen to that. Juggernaut would have just kept coming and coming, untill Superman finally removed the Helmet. Like he'd have known to do that.

And it's a good thing Superman didn't fight old skool Green Hulk. The one who got stronger as he got madder.

Here's a list of the JLU relevant amalgams:

Aqua-Mariner [Aquaman / Namor] ... Mutant King of Atlantis

Bruce Wayne, Agent of Shield [Batman/SHIELD] ... Nick Fury's protege

Dark Claw [Batman / Wolverine] ... Logan Wayne, crimefighter, techno-wizard, painter, sportsman. Has admantium claws gained in an experiment.

Wonder Woman [Wonder Woman/Storm] ... Princess Ororo of Themyscira.

John Jones, Vampire Hunter [Martian Manhunter/Blade] ... Does exactly what it says on the tin.

Speed Demon [Flash/Ghost Rider] ... Nephew of the original Speed Demon, grew up from being "Kid Demon" to being the fastest devil in Hell.

Stewart Rhodes [Green Lantern/James Rhodes] ... Right hand man to Hal Stark - who is secretly the superhero Iron Lantern.

Judgement League Avengers [Justice League/Avengers] ... Superhero team consisting of Captain Marvel [Captain Marvel/Captain Marvel], Angelhawk [Hawkman/Angel], Hawkeye [Green Arrow/Hawkeye], Supersoldier, Dark Claw, Goliath [Green Arrow/Goliath], Canary [Black Canary/Mocking Bird], Blue Jacket [Blue Beetle/Yellow Jacket],Wonder Gold [Booster Gold/Wonder Man], Red Vision [Red Tornado, The Vision]


Some of them work a bit better than others.

Yes, Iron Man is awesome. So awesome that DC felt compelled to do a rip-off.
*coughSteelcough!*

Iron Man sucks and he always has. He's basically a "What If Bruce Wayne Built a Metal Suit Instead of Actually Learning How to Fight?" character. Besides, as far as scientific genius at Marvel is concerned, he's no Reed Richards, Hank Pym, or Peter Parker (and it's "Spider-Man"). I'd actually have something good to say about Avengers Disassembled if they had killed Tony instead of Clint.


I'm sure Diana was pulling her punches.

[ot]Actually, Tony Stark is always held up with Richards & Pym, and definitely higher than a scientific unknown by name of Peter Parker. But I digress.[/ot]

I'd love to see a JLU/Avengers crossover as done by Timm & co. That would be so good.

Alternatively, I'd love to see an episode from the perspective of staff members at whatever the new headquarters are. I'm sure that Mr. MacDuffie, creator of the sadly-missed Damage Control, could pull it off brilliantly.

Hey Dwayne (if you read this) any chance of Milestone licensing Static to appear in JLU? I miss Static...

Well, Stan Lee based Tony Stark on Howard Hughes, and if he was really more like him with OCD and stuff, he'd be interesting. As it is, he does have that recovering alcoholic thing.

Richards and Stark are comparable geniuses. Other than Richards, Stark is the only other Marvel genius to invent a time machine.

They are both jacks-of-all-trades, but they do have certain strengths in specific areas of science. Richards is more of a physics and biology guy. And Stark is more of a computers, cybernetics and weapons guy.

As for Pym, yeah I would put him close to the same level as Richards and Stark, but he gets a demerit for smacking his wife around, and building a homicidal android.

And Parker, I'm sorry but he hasn't done anything on the level of Richards, Stark or Pym.



Yeah, I always thought it was fairly obvious that Stark was based on Hughes, not Bruce Wayne like some people seem to believe.

Static, whenever he's been joined by characters from the Timmverse on his own show, suffers from StaticGod syndrome that rivals the BatGod syndrome.

Maybe if he came over to JLU it wouldn't be so bad, since he wouldn't be the main character anymore.

Speaking of Milestone, though, I would love to see a JLU episode focusing on Steel where he met Hardware. Kind of like that "When Worlds Collide" storyline back in '93.

I'd much rather see crossovers that went back to the source: Hardware-Iron Man, Static-Spider-Man, and Blood Syndicate-X-Men[*], and Icon-Superman[**]

[*] But only the Clairmont-Byrne X-Men.

[**] Yes, this one already happened, but again, and better.

On topic, it's sort of a crime that JLU can't use the other Milestone characters. It would be better to appear in JLU (where they would be awesome), than to just languish.

That's always been one of those suspension-of-disbelief things that rivals the nobody recognized Clark without the glasses thing.

As a teenager, Parker casually whipped up a fluid that is (a) arbitrarily strong, (b) sticks to anything and © dissolves harmessly after a pre-set time. Then he casually whips up a microelectronic device that reacts with his personal bio-signature so he can sense it from a distance. And yet, he can't pay the rent. Because none of these things would be huge moneymakers in modern industry or anything.

Well, Hardware and Steel are both riffs on Iron Man. But since Iron Man is not currently a character likely to occur in a Timmverse cartoon, I stand by my desire to see Hardware and Steel meet in a forthcoming JLU.

Close? He created artificial life! If anything, he's the most accomplished of them all. Ultron is the greatest creation of the Marvel universe (even if he is homicidal).


I don't think you need to suspend disbelief—he's a genius. Considering his age, those two inventions (plus the webshooters) are more impressive than Tony's armor or time machine IMO. As if that weren't enough, he designed and sewed comics' greatest costume.


I never thought Tony was based on Bruce, but he's always paled in comparison to him.

To bring this back on topic, the DC heroes are generally stronger while the Marvel heroes are generally smarter.

Yes, Pym created a sentient (self-aware) android, but he wasn't the first to do it. Prof. Phineas T. Horton built the first sentient android back in 1939. (The android which would become the first Human Torch)

You're right. However, the Human Torch was not the instant success that Ultron was. Ultron began learning, talking, adapting, and scheming immediately.

Of course Pym has the distinction of being smacked down by Garret Morris.

Tony Stark also has the angle that all his enemies are business rivals. He does a better job looking out for Stark investors taking out the compition than Batman does for the Wayne Corp shareholders.

I just realized J.K. Simmons (AKA Schlinger) voices General Eiling. He maybe trying to stretch, but he should have voiced a supervillian (which one I don't know), but seeing what he did in Oz would ad so much menace to the character and some hillarious hoyay, like with the M&M commercials.

IMHO, Richards, Von Doom, and Pym are the great brains of the Marvel Universe - they regularly reorder reality itself, and they seem to be a genius in any field they want.

Parker, Stark, T'Challa, McCoy, and the like are in the second tier - fantastically brilliant by any realistic measure, but still basically building gadgets.

On topic, there's no one in the JLU who even comes close to Richards, Von Doom, or Pym. Clark and J'Onn have a lot of great gadgets, but they started with an advanced technological base. Palmer and Irons have some great insights, but still, they're not building stuff on a whim the way the Marvel big brains do. Maybe Luthor and Bruce are close, and Braniac 5 is probably in their class.

Keep in mind that characters like Tony Stark and T'Challa (Black Panther) that are often compared to Batman/Bruce Wayne were created back when Batman was still a goofy Adam West type who called people chum. They were taking on the business world, using their scientific genius to fight crime, and using "prep-time" to take down their enemies years before Batman would catch up to the program.

Actually the only problem I recall with Horton's first android had was the polymer that he used to make it's artificial skin would catch fire when exposed to oxygen. (Hence he got the name the Human Torch)

And even though the technology in the Marvel Universe is more advanced than in the real world, the fact that Horton could make such a sophisticated android in 1939 is still a mind-boggling accomplishment and still overshadows Pym's creation.

Pym built Ultron with present-day Marvel tech. Again a impressive feat, but not quite on the same scale as what Horton did in my humble opinion.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I hope Dwayne will be writing most of the episodes for next season. His episodes are the ones I've enjoyed the most this season.

Pym deserves alot of credit for having great advances in many disiplines. He figured out Pym particles, could talk to insects and robotics, too. Of course he had Wasp's money to leach off of.

I remember a bit in some comic a few years back that essentially placed Banner and Stark in the first tier. Essentially something was threatening the world/ Reality as We Know It and the top minds were having a secret meeting. I always liked the way it was portrayed. Sure Doom hate all these guys and vice-versa, but they pretty much recognize each others talent at least. Also, T'Challa...not really a technological genius. He's more a strategic genius with the resources of one of the 2 most technologically advanced nations (the other being Latveria-apparently the most developed nations in MU are Wakanda and Latveria. Possibly Atlantis and maybe pre-Sentinel Genosha there as well) on Earth at hand. Kind of like how the Batman Begins Bats has Lucius Fox/ Wayne Enterprises (was it ever WayneCorp?) in his utility belt)

In the JLU/DCU, I always thought that it was the villains who were more tech-oriented/ genius'. Top tech-hero I can think of is... The Atom, and I don't think he'a as talented as say, Luthor.

Brainy is far beyond Richards, Doom and Pym.

Individually, I agree. But as was mentioned before, a big enough threat could get Richards and Doom to ally. And that is some daunting brainpower to go up against.

He also voiced Mantis in "Question Authority." I wouldn't count him out for future appearances, either.

A past comment about how someone as defense attorney for the Joker would want to know if that Batman was the same Batman who apprehended his client (the mask/secret id thing) made me wonder; has there ever been a courtroom scene along those lines in the comic books or graphic novels?

I vaguely remember Wonder Woman being taken to court, as a threat to society, after her bracelets were removed by Hermes way back when.

Has any of the super heroes been sued for "emotional distress" or "property damage" after a fight, or some such civil suit?


eta: Thanks, snowcrash! The question applies to either the DC or Marvel universe.

elle, if you're looking for incidents in the DC universe, but in the Marvelverse, both Daredevil and She-Hulk are lawyers, so they do have storylines pertaining to their "day jobs". She-Hulk especially, but they tend to be more comedic, eg, Spider-man (almost succesfully) suing J Jonah Jameson for libel, but dropping the case when Peter Parker (as the photographer) is also found culpable.

That was my comment, and no, as far as I know, it's never been portrayed. I got to thinking about this, believe it or not, because of an incredibly stupid encounter some friends and I had with a member of the Klan. One of my buddies was in law school and he was telling Buford that it was illegal to go out in public with a mask on to conceal your identity. Buford's initial reaction is (surprise) one of anger, but the first thing I think about is, of course, Batman.

REally, anyone could go out anywhere and say they're Batman. And who would be to say they weren't Batman? And don't you think some dillhole goes into bars in Gotham City and tries to pick up women by telling them he's Batman? Seriously, why would anyone believe there was just one Batman? WHy would Bruce Wayne want there to even be just one Batman?

One incident happened in the pages of [I]Hawkman. It wasn't a courtroom scene but an interrogation. Hawkman was the prime suspect in brutal murders in St.Roch. He was ordered by a detective to remove his mask.
He refused on account that it violated his 1st Amendent right to religion.
He worshipped a Egyptian god and the mask was a symbol.

They're actually playing off that basic idea in the current storyline of Gotham Central. The cops find a body of a young kid, dressed like Robin, and the suit and gadgets look legit. Batman blows the cops off, saying it's not really Robin, and he'll handle it... but how can they be sure? How do they know Batman isn't just blowing smoke up their ass?

In case anyone's interested, the comics-related blog Suspension of Disbelief often reviews legal scenes that appear in comics, among other fact-checking stuff. (Their articles on the errors in comic book archery have been very interesting.)

The most obvious example is Barry Allen's trial for murdering Prof. Zoom. That was a criminal trial though, so not really relevant.

Here's another suspension of disbelief problem that constantly bugs me. I know some heroes like Supes and Spidey have day jobs, and some like Batman and Iron Man are rich. But there seems to be an awful lot of heroes in both the DC and Marvel universes who fight evil with no discernible source of income. For example, does either the Flash or Green Lantern have a job?

It's even worse on JLU, where half the heroes seem to live on the Watchtower, apparently on Batman's dime. I'd love to see an episode where Bruce kicks all those freeloaders to the curb and tells them to get a job.

The current Green Lantern (Kyle) is a freelance illustrator. They don't often discuss his finances, but they do show him at work. Hal Jordan was a test pilot. I know that John Stewart was an architect before becoming GL, but I don't know what he did for money while he was working as GL.

The old Flash was a police scientist -- but I don't know what Wally does for money. (Wasn't he doing commercial endorsements at one point?)

Well, of the GLs...

Alan Scott started off as a railway engineer then moved up to train *designer* before winding up as owner of his radio station.

Hal Jordan was a test pilot for much of his run, but ultimately got fired for unreliability. He then went through a succession of dead end jobs, including being a travelling salesman at one point. It was kind of a Spider-Man 2ish arc they brought him through for a good while where he actually hated being GL because it was ruining the rest of his life.

Jon Stewart was an architect, but spent most of his GL career as the Corps' man ... out in space, claiming expenses from the Guardians.

Guy Gardener was a teacher at the beginning, then pretty much mooched off the League for ages, before ultimately opening his own bar.

Kyle's a comic book artist/freelance illustrator but - again due to being GL - has a rep as unreliable and is often completely broke and between jobs.


As for the Flashes:

Jay Garrick was a scientist and a football player. Beyond that, I don't know.

Barry Allen worked in Central City CSI.

Wally West used to support himself with endorsements, but I think he now actually draws a salary from the city (there's one story where the Mayor sells his contract to another town).

Still behind, eh? The current Green Lantern is Hal Jordan. Kyle's still a GL as well. Apparently, they're going to reform the GL Corps.

Didn't Wally win the lottery shortly after becoming the Flash?

And if you add in the DCAU John Stewart, he's former US Military, isn't he? So I would assume he's getting a pension.

Thank you to all who answered my question! Thanks for the link, roosterboy!

I could not find the original quote, so I appreciate it, bigmonster, that you claimed it and gave us the story behind the comment.

I was wondering about courtroom scenes in general, Distant Sun, so your response does apply. I specifically asked about civil suits because I figured in this rather litigious society someone probably would try to such a case. I though that one or another of the authors might have addressed the possible fallout from all those battles and city/world saves.

This current topic is interesting. I enjoy reading the back stories of the characters.

I sure hope so, since he does have an apartment to pay for. Maybe he's mooching off of Vixen right now.

That does make me wonder what Hawkgirl used to do. There's no way she could have hidden those wings, and she was clearly active on earth prior to the formation of the JL. Did she live on a rooftop and get food from grateful citizens?

"Thanks for saving my life!"

"No problem. Now give me a sandwhich."

Heh.


Although, since she was Thangarian she may have had a ship with everything she needed in it.



That's right! I'd forgotten that!

It's all about the merchandising. Who do you think makes all the money off of the Superman T-Shirts and Wonder Woman lunch boxes?

Wally West (Flash) works as a mechanic for the Central City PD (the same station where Barry worked as a forensic scientist). Also his wife is a TV reporter for one of the major stations in Central City, so she earns earns more money than he does.

Martian Manhunter used to be a detective, but I think he's pretty much drooped the John Jones ID now and is a full time super hero.

Aquaman, uh, pretty much lives off the sea. He doesn't really need to rent an apartment or buy food.

Zantana works as a stage magician when she's not running around as one of the 3 distinctly different version of herself that populate the DC/Vertigo Universe.

Over at the M, uh, until recently all of the active Avengers were getting paid really well by Stark for their services and most of the X-people tend to live off of Xavier's dime.

The Fantastic Four are pretty much a business of their own between Reed's inventions and selling the merchandising rights, Sue is pretty much the CEO and Torch is the CFO. Thing doesn't do much, but then Reed is responsible for turning him into a big rock monster, so he gets a free pass.

Pretty much everybody else is either rich or has some sort of day job. I think Punisher might live off of the money he steals from dead mafia guys, but I don't really read the Punisher book.

I disagree. I don't think brains can accomplish as much in the DCU as they can in Marvel. So Brainiac 5 can probably do math problems faster, and he has built some amazing stuff, but, IMHO, he can't whip up rediculous world-shaking stuff outside of any displayed expertise as fast as Richards and Doom can.

Actually, in the current run of Fantastic Four, Reed, Sue and Johnny lost all their money in some sort of stock/accountant fraud mishap. Ben thought he was broke as well, but it turns out he wasn't (since Reed has no power of attorney over Ben's money, or something), so Ben actually now has billions. I don't totally get it. But Marvel Knights 4 had Sue working as a teacher, and Johnny as a fireman.

And, yeah, Wally is a mechanic. There was a recent issue where Batman was hassling him about something behind the garage, which I found really funny, because I could imagine one of his co-workers coming back going, "Hey, Wally, where'd you put the-- oh, you're talking to Batman. Never mind."

Thanks for all the input on the superhero jobs. I especially like the idea of Flash winning the lottery. It's always great when the writers address the nitpicking of the fans with ludicrous contrivances.

And I think Hawkgirl would make a great courier.

Can anyone recommend some good storylines that would be worth picking up for the Flash? I definitely prefer the Wally West version to Barry Allen, and I wouldn't mind reading a good storylines.

My reccomendations for great Flash stories would be: Blood Will run, Crossfire and the just finished Rogue War. You can get Blood and Cross in TPB form right now and Rogue War I'm sure you can pick up some back issues now before the conclusion in issue 225 in a week.

I think in the new season they should bring Darkseid back and wrap up the whole civil war on Apocalypse storyline.

I'm a big fan of Mark Waid's Flash (some of his very best work IMO). "The Return of Barry Allen," despite the name, is probably the definitive Wally West story. An excellent standalone issue is Flash #0, which deals with Wally's origins. It's definitely the best thing to come out of Zero Hour.

I'd also like to recommend JLA: Year One again.

I just ordered that last night.

So, for anyone who followed War Games - do you recommend it? I'm on the fence about buying its three TPB volumes.

One more thing, does anyone here get their comics via mail subscription? If so, how do they come packaged?


Topic: I agree, I hope Dwayne wrote a large portion of the upcoming season, but I'd also like to see Gail Simone back writing another episode or two.

Next season, I'd like to see the team lift some of the best JLU stories of history. (Teen Titans has been doing this very effectively).

I liked the White Martians arc quite a bit, and Luthor's corporate takeover wasn't bad.