I'd say that's about right. Probably because they worked out the whole, "Let's streamline everything into one universe with this" without really hashing out the details of what that meant.

So then there was Zero Hour, and now they'll be Infinite Crisis. Though I'm let to believe Infinite Crisis won't be so much about changing continuity as much as housecleaning.

Maybe he just thinks it's spiffy. It's not like it's going to damage his aerodynamics. Batman's is to freak people out. Billy Bateman probably has one because Superman has one.

I much prefer the cape to the trenchcoats and sleeveless trenchcoats of the early '90s. And the mullets. The Supermullet was a thing of horror.

You're right, of course. I blame old age.


IOW, killing more non-first-tier characters that they deem expendable.


Batson

The fate of Dollar Bill in Watchmen is a lesson against capes—at least if you aren't super powered.

Not to mention that whole sequence in The Incredibles, even if you are superpowered.

Not to mention Isadora Duncan.

Well Earth the Quickening then.

Dammit, duh. Arrgh.

Crisis itself was not a terrible idea, but its clear that the DC editors lacked a cohesive plan of what the DCU would look like afterward. Hence the constant retcons necessary to make some sense. Hopefully Infinite Crisis will clean house a bit, but I'm not optimistic, given DC's track record.

And as for Hippolyta being killed off, she's still dead in the comics and will probably not be brought back anytime soon (Wonder Woman is quickly surplanting Batman as the kiss of death for close relations: she's lost her mother, Donna Troy, her boyfriend, and a good number of Amazons over the years).

JLU placed third in the Tubeys for Best Cartoon of the 2004-2005 Season. Congradulations!

Someone a couple pages back mentioned they wanted to see John Constantine on JLU, but I have to say that would be a bit odd. There have been attempts over the years to have Vertigo characters step into the DC universe briefly but those comics almost always tend to come off a bit badly. It's two different spheres and styles.

(that being said, back in the late 80s, Alan Moore proposed a large scale DC comics crossover with John Constantine at the center of things, the "Twilight of the Superheroes". The proposal (which you can find here) is somewhat famous in the comics world as the greatest comics story never told, since Alan Moore had a falling out with DC before this ever happened).

I did not know that about Hippolyta -- I've been working my way through the JSA collections, and a little over halfway through, she's still popping up. But I'm still at least a few years behind the current comics.

And as for Power Girl's cleavage hole, it actually dates back to her debut in the '70s. (Well, I don't know if it was around from the very beginning, but it was certainly there when I started seeing the character in the JSA/All Star Squadron title of the time).

And Hourman is in fact not particularly mystical -- he gets one hour of super strength one time per day by taking a drug his father developed. Originally, the drug was administered in pill form. Now it's a transdermal patch. But it is a pretty cool costume (although I'm not sure it measures up to Dr. Midnite among the JSA). (And I did not know that the original Hourman was back in the world.)

And Superman's cape -- there was a time when his cape was supposed to be the baby blanket that he was wrapped in when his spaceship crashed. As a piece of Kryptonian fabric, it was indestructible -- so he did often use it to wrap up things or people that he was protecting.

I rather doubt the validity of that proposal, it just doesn't read like Moore IMO. I'm pretty sure that Moore knows that Mary Marvel is Cap's sister for one, so having them be married would, at the least, warrant some sort of mention about how people would view the weirdness of such a pairing.


I'm pretty sure that both companies follow the 4/1 rule (4 years of real time = 1 year comic time). Ergo, Peter Parker was bitten by a Spider 43 years ago our time which translates into 10-11 years ago Marvel time. Peter has gone from a 16 year old high school student to a 26-27 year old science teacher.

Oh yeah I've assumed that, but I still remember him fighting the Hypono-Hustler.

It has been confirmed by both Moore and DC Comics that this is indeed his proposal. Alan Moore Fansite FAQ: What is the Twilight of the Superheroes proposal?

Kurt Busiek, Warren Ellis, Neil Gaiman and Dave Gibbons have also concurred or confirmed that it is Moore's work.



It was. Cover to All-Star Comics #58 (gotta squint a bit to make her out but the cleavage hole is clearly visible). What I presume is a panel from said issue.

Well ... shut my mouth. I have to say I'm rather glad that it didn't get made then. The last thing I need to see as a Captain Marvel fan is Cap married to his sister and a (still young) Billy Batson getting killed in a sleazy dive while he seeks out sex with a hooker ...

As for the "cleavage hole" it reminds me of a story I read from a DC editor about a letter he received from a young fan asking why Superman's cousin wore a Y on her chest where Superman had his S.

Well there is a Hillbilly Marvel...

you know, i never thought to look for a jlu group here until it cropped up on the tubeys results. anyway, glad to find it, as twop always has the best discussions and jlu is an excellent show (especially since it is both incredibly comic-geeky and still well written enough that a non-comic reading person like my wife can enjoy it)

i'd certainly like to see more of hourman - i have a strong fondness for most of the golden age, minimally powered heroes (wildcat, atom, dr. mid-nite, crimson avenger, etc) really, i'm just glad their giving themselves so many characters to play with, so there's no loss when they are told that batman's ancillary properties are off-limits (though, i guess huntress is now removed enough from the bat-universe that she's ok to use)

as far as the geography thread, a while back, i'm still holding to alan moore's assertion that gotham is providence, ri (which not only gives it a nice lovecraft/arkham connection, but places it in a nicely corrupt town - and mean you can pick any number of nearby coast ex-whaling towns to serve as the absurdly named bludhaven)

([OT]As a life-long Rhode Islander, I'm not sure how to take that last comment.[/OT])

Anyways, I've never heard of the "Gotham is Providence" theory, especially since Providence looks absolutely nothing like Gotham. Now Boston, on the other hand, I could believe.

Gotham is one of the nicknames for New York City.

Having never been there, Gotham lacks the stereotypical "Joisey" feel. I always pictured it as being in Conn. Kind of Bridgeport run amok.

Metropolis being in Delaware makes sense because, it is a nondescript place in the national conciousness. All the Simpsons jokes, corperate tax shelters.

Middleton being right on top of Boulder, CO: There has got to be some good Martian Manhunter stories there. J'onn gets gassed in a Hill Riot, battles the Run amok CU football team, becomes a hippy, super villians based on Ward Churchhill, Bill McCartney, the irony of his secret identity being a police detective juxtaposed with the Jon-Benet fiasco...

I could buy Gotham as Providence. Its not that it *is* Providence, just that it takes the place of Providence. I could buy there being a bigger city there abouts. Corruption certainly does well in that spot, too. Seriously, DMike, you're a life-long Islander and you hadn't noticed the rampent old-school corruption that periodically overwhelms Providence?

I didn't say I didn't notice it; I just said I wasn't sure whether or not to be offended by the remark (and I meant it as a joke, ftr).

And when I said it doesn't look like Providence, I meant that the two cities look so different from each other. Even the Financial District doesn't give that "closed, huddled urban supercity" vibe that I always pictured Gotham having (unlike New York or to a lesser extent Boston); the landscape's around here's too open and the buildings are too far apart to have that huddled atmosphere. Besides, it would be too close to Happy Harbor, and Gotham and "Happy Harbor" just don't sound like they belong anywhere near each other.

the gotham = providence theory is from an alan moore issue of swamp thing where we zoom in on gotham from space, and it's located right about in providence. i'm assuming this is just based on the arkham/lovecraft connection, and not necessarily on physical appearance (since providence is much less densely urban than gotham, as you point out)

i'm much less convinced about the boston = ivy town assertion. ivy town seems way to dinky to be a reasonable substitute for boston.

Ivy Town always struck me as someplace like Ithaca, a pretty college town with a famous university and not much else. As for Gotham, I just rewatched the Ra's al Ghul episode (The Demon's Quest) of B:TAS, and Gotham was clearly located where New York City would be. But then again, the animated universe always played by a different set of rules.

It's always bothered me that Aquaman can live in depths where the pressure is measured in tons-to-the-square-inch and yet he's never really shown as being incredibly super-strong or bullet-proof.

Also, trying to catch up here, but regarding legal matters, if it was me acting as a defense attorney for a super-villian, and Batman (or any hero with a mask) was going to testify against my client, I would want definitive proof that he was the same Batman who caught my client. Dude wears a mask. How do we know there's not 20 of them?


Gotta chime in here, but WW was granted strength greater than Hercules, while Capt Marvel's bolt gives him the strength of Hercules.


I loved the portrayal of CM on JLU. Brilliant! I hope he shows up again. *High Five!*


OMG! The Young All-Stars was one of my favorite titles ever (second to "Blue Devil", how's that for obscure?) I even got to meet Roy Thomas and delude him with questions about the Post-Crisis team, damn, I miss the 80's sometimes....


Except Iron Man is an alcoholic....


Once I read that Metropolis was like Central Park West on the brightest, sunniest day of the year, and Gotham was Hell's Kitchen during a thunderstorm in the middle of the longest night of the year.

Aquaman's Really Wet Adventures

I know, but it's a retcon that's ripped off from Cap himself (presumably to justify her arbitrary status as #2). Lame.

Actually he's been shown standing there letting bullets bounce off his chest and he (sorry I have to laugh even as I type it) was able to hold up an entire city block or some such nonsense.

As for the bulletproof thing, there are animals that survive where the pressure is measured in tons-to-the square-inch" but they're not bulletproof. I'm no science wiz, but sheesh, sometimes it's like Aquaman writers don't even remember 7th grade science classes. We've been told, at one point, that he has super hearing because he lives under water, which sort of ignores the fact that sound travels much better though water than it does though air and someone conditioned for hearing underwater would probably have much weaker hearing on land, but, whatever.


The Strength of Hercules augmented by the power of Zeus. The power of Zeus augments all of Cap's other powers, he's stronger than Herc, faster than Mercury, has more endurance than Atlas, et cetera ...

Twilight actually got as far as having ads for it placed in some DC books in the 80s. I've got a couple.

JLA Year One had a nice recurring bit there with Aquaman-- since he was relatively new to being above ground, he was constantly mumbling instead of talking, since mumbling is how you talk underwater.

No, but they have the consistency of jelly. Aquaman walks upright and everything. I'm just sayin'....


How come he can telepathically talk to fish and not other undersea people? As lame as I thought his power was before I turned 12, it doesn't ever seem to get better.

I loved Captain Marvel's slam of Superman. That pretty much chimes in with every thought I've had of Superman in the last few years.

Though after 3 "Shazam!" Superman should have been down for the count. He's very vulnerable to mystical energy. Just like he was in Kingdom Come... great shoutout.

Well, the other undersea people in the DC Universe aren't telepathic so talking to them telepathically all the time would probably freak them out. And it seems that he can only communicate with simple brains, anyway, and more complicated/evolved ones are too difficult to access -- although he can crudely access humans' primitive brainstems he can only use to cause massive seizures.

I've never heard that, but you're right—it doesn't make sense. All I've seen is that he's supposed to have a type of sonar that allows him to "see" things when blinded.


I love Year One. I can't recommend it enough. Old school JLA with Barry, Hal, and the gang—that's my favorite JLA book in a long time.

That's a different book, a Howard Chaykin/José Luis Garcia-Lopez series called simply Twilight, not Alan Moore's Twilight of the Super-Heroes. It was basically an Elseworlds (before there was such a thing) about DC's old space-based heroes like Tommy Tomorrow and the Planeteers. The covers can be seen here.



Apparently, he has been shown in the past (long ago) to have a very limited ability to control some individuals, like his JLDetroit comrade Steel.

On TV Funhouse Rob Smigel did a SHAZAM spoof, where the kid who found the cave got shitty powers with the acronym SCREWPAH. He was so ingratious he never used them. I can't see the Big Red Cheese without thinking about that.

So in a smackdown between Aquaman and Namor, who do you think would win?

Aquaman's hotter.

I think there was an Aquaman/Namor fight in Avengers/JLA, but I can't remember for sure, and I definitely don't remember the result.

My all-time favourite Namor/Aquaman fight though took place in the non-continuity comedy book What The?!? which featured The "Revengers" vs. the "Just A League". Everyone else is fighting, and then they cut to a panel showing Aquaman and Namor sitting on two couches... sipping tea.

A: So how are things in your undersea kingdom of Atlantis?
N: Fine. I've been deposed again I think. How's the wife?
A: Insane. Yours?
N: Dead. I had to kill her after she went insane.
A: You know, we really should do this more often.

Aquaman won...writer Peter David cheated, having Orin drop a whale on the Avenging Son.

On-topic...in "Question Authority," does anybody else laugh at the soliders dogpiling on Superman?

Yep. Robert Wuhl's one good bit was about Superman taking the six bullet on the chest, but when the hood would throw the gun he'd duck.

On last night's Harvey Birdman there were secret identity jokes that was reminiscent of the Clark Kent discussion we were having.

I'm pretty sure that was the DC Vs Marvel crossover where the results were all decided by fan voting. Most fans tend to treat it like some sort of bad dream "Elseworlds" story, keep in mind that this is the same crossover where Storm laid a beat down on Wonder Woman and Wolverine beat Lobo (you know, Lobo, a guy who is on the same level as Superman).

As for Aquaman Vs. Namor. Namor. 1. Namor is stronger, this is the guy who fights entire teams of super heroes all by himself. 2. Namor is tougher, his hand was never eaten by a school of piranha. 3. Namor is smarter, he isn't foolish enough to wear an orange shirt.

Just look at the version of Aquaman on JLU, from hanging out with the Defenders-lite to the angry attacks on the surface world the guy is obviously supposed to be a Namor stand in. Even the JLU writers think that Namor is cooler.

...so it says a lot that Arthur is more popular than Namor. Of course, even though I like Aquaman, that isn't saying much. Namor is the lamest "major" Marvel character not named Iron Man.

Namor looks like an elf. Elves frighten me. Elves in Speedos hail from a special layer of hell.

Aquaman looks like a pro-wrestler. Which is intrisically superior, especially since he might crack, and smash Superman with a chair.

I'm going to make a live-action movie with the least respected members of Justice League with Chris Jericho as Aquaman and make a pile of money.

Then you'll see! You'll all see! Mwahuahua!

Evles in Speedos with winged ankles are even worse. Seriously, winged ankles?

How else is he gonna fly?

Topic: I wonder if next season will at all mirror the Alex Ross Justice series.

Guh? Iron Man is teh awesome!!!
Hasn't Ozzy taught you not to temp the wrath of Iron Man?

Nobody wants him
He just stares at the world
Planning his vengeance
That he will soon unfold

Now the time is here
For iron man to spread fear
Vengeance from the grave
Kills the people he once saved


I wouldn't want to be the poor pro-wrestler that looks like the current retro-Aquaman with his ken doll hair and bright orange shirt. The poor guy would be jobbing to everybody. Believe me, even speedo-wearing-elf-ear Namor looks cool in comparison to green-pants-orange Shirt-water-hand Aquaman.

Uh, no. Only 5 of the match-ups were decided by the popular vote. IIRC, the ones that were voted on were Batman v Cap Am; Superman v Hulk; Storm v Wonder Woman; Wolverine v Lobo; Spiderman v Superboy. The rest (Aquaman v Namor; Robin v Jubilee; Thor v Cap Marvel; Flash v Quicksilver; Elektra v Catwoman; Silver Surfer v Green Lantern) were decided pretty much by the writers, I guess.

Can't believe I still remember all that.

I'll just assume Donovan was making idle boasts about Superman and Green Lantern.

Here's the DC vs Marvel rundown:

* Superman vs. Hulk (Superman)
* Batman vs. Captain America (Batman)
* Wonder Woman vs. Storm (Storm)
* Superboy vs. Spiderman (Spiderman)
* Lobo vs. Wolverine (Wolverine)

The outcomes of the other six battles were determined by the companies:

* Flash vs. Quicksilver (Flash)
* Green Lantern vs. Silver Surfer (Silver Surfer)
* Robin vs. Jubilee (Robin)
* Catwoman vs. Elektra (Elektra)
* Thor vs. Captain Marvel (Thor)
* Aquaman vs. Namor (Aquaman)


Some of the fights were pretty good (the 'awww crap' look on Namor's face as the shadow of a blue whale about to belly flop on him falls across his face is priceless; Robin and Jubilee upset that their fight is taking away from valuable time making out with each other; the Flash suddenly realizing that he can actually run about a bajillion times faster than Quicksilver and trashing him; Thor uses his own mastery of storms to divert the Shazam!Bolt so it doesn't hit Billy) and others really poor (okay so Lobo and Wolverine both have healing powers that make them practically unkillable - but Lobo's rendered Superman unconcious with one punch before now, so what gives with Wolverine wiping the floor with him, and similarly how come Storm's head stays on her shoulders having been punched by Wonder Woman?)

Ugh, the DC/Marvel crossover! I remember one page where Bullseye was transported over to DC and tried to take on Batman. Bullseye misses Batman with a throwing star and gets taken out with one punch by Batman. That's bad enough, but as he's going down Bullseye manages to squeak out "You hit even harder than Daredevil!" Have another glass of haterade why don't you?
The crossover would work a lot better as one of those Capcom fighting games, so crap moments like Superman KOing Juggernaut in five seconds could be erased from memory.

I remember that comic... it was beginning of Almagam comics I believe, when they mix-matched DC/Marvel origins to make new heroes... so there was Bruce Wayne, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D, and then Logan, whose parents Thomas and Martha Wayne were gunned down in an alley... I think Supes and Cap America was also one.