That bothered me a little too. But he had that ejector seat, which probably had a parachute and/or boosters and all kinds of gadgets and would have carried him safely away. So, it works for me.

And that red cape guy is the Crimson Avenger, another Golden Age vigilante-type hero. We briefly saw him in "This Little Piggy"

Newbie here with a few questions on Captain Marvel. When DC says that Wondy is the second strongest after Superman, is that because the DC editors simply consider CM irrelevant, or has he actually been depowered in the comics? Also, does CM have any special weaknesses, like kryptonite?

He was a fun character in The Clash, though I don't know if I'd want to see him as a regular on JLU. He seems awfully similar to Supes, even down to their appearance.

Personally, I think DC calling WW the second-strongest hero was just an attempt to enhance her status (as if she needed it). I also think CM is criminally underused because of his similarities to Superman. His biggest "weakness" is that he's actually a kid.

You can read more about "The World's Mightiest Mortal" here. It's Wikipedia, but it's a pretty nice write-up nonetheless.

In the comics Captain Marvel is usually shown to be Superman's equal in terms of strength and power. The whole Wonder Woman is second only to Superman thing is, IMO, just a PR line since Martian Manhunter is also usually shown to be equal to Superman.

The debate about CM and Wondy raises the biggest problem I've always had with DC Comics. It seems foolish, IMO, to have that many super-strong, super-fast, near invulnerable heroes, especially since most of the DC villains tend to be powerless, or given one stupid power. And this tends to lead to stories about cosmic villain X that cannot be stopped, except by plot contrivance Y.

JLU I think has done a better job of keeping the heroes scaled down enough to make their villains (like Braniac) seem plausibly threatening.

I've said as much in the past, but I've changed my stance over the years. I've come to accept that this aspect of DC provides a welcome foil to Marvel. The most well-rounded major Marvel characters would probably be Thor and Spider-Man, but even those two have more weaknesses than the big guns from DC. The cosmic, larger-than-life nature of many DC stories is fun. That being said, I will readily admit I'm a bigger Marvel fan.


Agreed.

Omigosh! I thought the same thing when I saw spoiler screencaps. I thought it was supposed to be like an evil superman double or something. They look so much alike... even on comic covers IMHO.

I SOOOOO want Lt "Hillbilly" Marvel!

The Big Red Cheese said he was from Fawcet City, no? I used to have a book on the geography of the DC Universe, Metropolis was in Delaware and Gotham in South Jersey. What are the other fake cities? And is DC's US population 1 billion with all these extra cites? Does their NFL have 50 teams?

No, now it's her mother who was hanging around during WWII.

And I think any effort to pin down DCU geography is doomed to failure. I think we can know the general regions of various cities (i.e., Gotham and Metropolis are both northeastern, Central City is midwestern, Star City is on the west coast), but that's about it. Because really, Gotham and Metropolis are both just New York. (And until relatively recently, New York and other real-world cities were just never mentioned in the DC books).

The way I see it, DC is more Iconic, and Marvel is more Human. When you come down to it, the DC heroes are far more symbols than anything else. I think that's why you can make something like Squadron Supreme/Supreme Power, which is a jazz-solo riff off of DC/JLA. I don't think trying to do that off of Marvel would work.

Agreed in every aspect. Though I'm glad they did tone down Superman's powers. Time travel? Sheesh.

Yes. This online Atlas of the DCU is based on the old DCURPG Atlas and the Secret Files comics, with some recent additions. It places Fawcett City on Lake Michigan, east of Gary, IN.



Let's see, there's:
Fawcett City (Captain Marvel)
Gotham City (Batman)
Metropolis (Superman)
Central City (Flash; sister city of Keystone City in Post-Crisis continuity)
Keystone City (Golden Age Flash; sister city of Central City in Post-Crisis continuity)
Hub City (The Question; very corrupt)
Coast City (Green Lantern; destroyed by the Cyborg and now reborn)
Opal City (Starman)
Civic City (original JSA headquarters)
St. Roch (Hawkman)
Blue Valley (Kid Flash and later Star-Spangled Kid/Stargirl)
Gateway City (Wonder Woman under John Byrne)
Vanity City (Aztek)
Blüdhaven (Nightwing; I hate this name, in case anyone cares)
Star City (Green Arrow)
Midway City (Doom Patrol)
Quad Cities (Wild Dog; I think I'm the only person who actually liked this mini-series)

There are probably some more, especially from the Golden Age, that I am forgetting. During the GA, they created new cities at the drop of a hat!

Then you have the smaller towns like Ivy Town (where Ray Palmer taught college) and Happy Harbor (where the original JLA headquarters was) and Smallville.

The Absorbascon recently (in June, I think) did a series of posts on the various old "fictionopoleis" of the DCU and included several I'd never heard of before, like New Venice from some old Aquaman stories.

Thanks for the geography everybody. The fake city thing did get tiresome, Gotham and to a leeser extent Metropolis are the only ones that have some depth to them. It gets to be like one of those sports movies that are too cheap to license the real teams.

I'd have to agree with you there. If you compare the ammount of DC characters in the mainstream to Marvel ones it's no contest. The only marvel characters I'd call mainstream are the Fantastic Four, Spiderman, Hulk, Captian America and recently Wolverine, while at the same time supporting DC characters outside of the big 3 are recognizable, Flash, Green Lantern.

I think the iconic nature springs from their names a bit, most of the characters seem to be a variation on the (super power) (man) theme.

First, you guys are great and I'm sorry that I'm always here to sponge-off you vast knowledge of comics but I do have another question. You see, I've decided to follow a couple of comics but if I had the time, storage space and money I'd follow a whole lot more. Now I was wondering, is there a site out there that gives synopses of each issue of all the major DC titles? You know, kind of like a TWoP for comics.

I always thought Metropolis was more like Chicago than New York. Big newspaper city, fairly close to Kansas. Oh well . . .

I can see everyone's point about the value of DC heroes as icons. I guess, as a reader, I prefer more 3-dimensional characters with flaws, which is why I've always been a Marvel fan. Though sometimes Marvel characters can be a bit too human (I was never really into Spider-man, due to his constant "woe is me" routine about his Burden). The most talented writers usually find some balance between icon/human, though I can't think of any examples at the moment.

Just to stay on topic, I always thought the JL and JLU writers did a decent job balancing the icon/human, though not as well as in B:TAS or S:TAS, when they had only one title character.

It's a more recent creation, but Opal City is right up there with the big two in terms of how much it's been fleshed out. James Robinson, the his Starman series, did an amazing job of giving Opal a personality all its own to distinguish it from every other generic fake city in the DCU. It's really too bad we'll probably never get to see Opal in the animated shows.

I'll tell you why I hate Marvel heros. IMHO, they're shortsighted and lack commitment.

For example, say a mugger steals your Capital One credit card. A DC hero would probably help you, but a Marvel hero? Forget about it. Marvel heros would just give you a sarcastic voiced lecture about how you aren't liable for fraudulent charges. Would they care that (1) the mugger had just committed a crime, or (2) that the frickin BANK would be liable for the fraudulent charges? Apparently not. (And if anyone should be sensitive to the risks presently by letting petty criminals free to commit more crimes, you would think it would be Spiderman . . .)

The poor lady just got stuck with the wrong heroes. What does Thor know about credit? If Iron Man had been around, he could've just given her a couple hundred bills and taken her out for drinks.

On topic, are there any plans to get characters like Swamp Thing or John Constantine into the show? Neither of them really fit a standard hero/villan mold which I dig, and it would give some publicity to two of my favorite comic characters.

Eh? Superman was too busy hanging out with Jerry Seinfeld chatting about how great American Express is to even bother showing up.


I think the TV rights to Swamp thing might be tied up from that live action show he had in the 90s ...

Constantine? Well, I doubt it ... I mean, how the heck do you make him work, and why bother when they've already got a dozen mystical heroes hanging around?

But I really really like him!! He's cool! Waahhh!

The whole Vertigo line is sorta off on it's own, but there have been crossovers. Ah well.

All I'm saying, is that it would serve Spiderman right if he got back home, and discovered that the Capital One mugger had killed Aunt May. ("Oh, no! With great power still comes great responsibility!")

On topic, Constantine would be tricky. Once you've got Dr. Fate, it's hard to stick Constantine in the mix, as cool as he is. Swamp Thing might be ok. (There was a great JLA appearance in a Swamp Thing vs Floronic Man fight 15 years ago, and a Batman vs. Swamp Thing fight around that time).

See, that's just bad characterization. Spiderman would stop the guy while quipping about the merits of Capital One. Captain America would stop the guy, and THEN give a lecture about the merits of it, plus about how captialism and America are great values and such.



See, I always saw Metropolis as NY, and Gotham as Chicago. And Central as Pittsburgh. And Blüdhaven as stupid. Seriously-- is there an actual American city with an umlaut?

Well it comes down to what kind of stories you want to tell. One reason why DC avoids using real cities too much is because when they want to do a story about the hero battling against corrupt city officials, it's much easier to just use a fictional city with fictional city officials than a real city and using real people because obviously the real life people would take offense with themselves and their city being portrayed in a negative tone.

Using a fictional city helps avoid any potential headaches.

I like the fictional cities. If you're going to be making up costumed heroes, why be stuck with real cities?

OT: It's "Spider-Man," not "Spiderman"!

There's an item over at TV Shows On DVD that Warner Brothers has season box sets of Justice League "under consideration." Let's hope they get off their asses and put the show out on DVD starting with S1 & 2 box sets. It's long overdue!

Phoebe: Why isn't it "Spidermun"? You know, like Goldman, or Silverman?

Chandler: It's not his last name.

Phoebe: It isn't?

Chandler: No. It's not like... like "Phil Spiderman". He's a spider-man.

One of my favorite non-Kevin Smith comic book exchanges ever.

In my world (which is totally not in line with DC), Gotham is NY, Metropolis is Chicago, Keystone is Pittsburgh, Central is Cleveland, Star is Seattle, Opal is Nawlins, and Bludhaven is, I agree, fucking ridiculous. Though it makes a lovely album for Motley Crue.

It wouldn't be terrible if they actually injected flavor from various cities into theirs, but that might be too much to ask.

A southwestern city might be nice.

Is there an Edge City?

Edge City, I believe, is from The Mask, and the Smallville writers stole it. Why? Because they are lazy, incompetant bitches.

I always assumed that Gotham was New York, because I instinctively want Arkham Asylum as close to New England as possible since I read too much H. P. Lovecraft. And I figured that Arkham Asylum has to be somewhat near Gotham. (Hey, it's better than getting your ideas from The Mask)

Whatever state Gotham City is in, it has the loosest deffinition of criminal insanity on the books.


I can see that point in Gotham where the city itself has become a character, but it feels like with alot of the DC cities they lack grit and are just 50's archeatypes of Americana.

I was surprised to see J'onn J'onz hometown of Middleton right on top of me in Colorado. It is somewhat fitting that he moved here from Mars, we get tons of people migrating from an unpopulated featureless wasteland, Nebraska.

Hee! As someone who studies Mars geology for a living, I'm required to object to the implication that Mars is featureless...it has a lot more going for it than, say, Nebraska.

Yes, but should the mood strike, you can blow them up. Or say the mayor's been an alien. Or have a giant robot lumber through.

Try blowing up Cleveland... people get annoyed.

Oh yeah, it works for Gotham. We know who holds city offices know landmarks, it's a character in itself. It's something The Simpson have made work for them with Springfield. It's just with Metropolis, et al. it's just so bland. If a super villian is going to rob banks why not just use Des Moines? Just lacks relevance to me.

There is the risk of the river catching fire...

On the inverse if the South Park guys told the truth about a town they were referencing my parents house might decline in value.

Of course just recently DC had San Diego sink into the ocean and become SUB DIEGO, new home of AQUAMAN!!! So it's pretty clear they're not worried about upsetting real people, I mean, forget the city sinking, their hero is ... Aquaman?

Of course both companies have done their share of alien attacks, robot rampages, and corrupt officials in real cities (heck, Marvel NYC can't go 10 minutes without some sort of attack), and no one has really complained ...

For those interested in the history of comic book cities, as well as anything else comic related, Movie Poop Shoot has a great series of articles at Comics 101

I feel like an expert after reading all the articles, I even know who Crazy Quilt is!

What? That's...the hell?

HEH! So is Sub Diego the new Atlantis? Tres Chic!

Yes, Comics 101 ROCKS! Thanks to whomever posted a link to that site. Just within the last few months I've learned about all the complex histories of these characters. Plus, Scott Tipton does a nice series of columns on both B:TAS and JL/U. I'm just about to start the somewhat overwhelming 13 part series about JLA.

Does anyone here follow JSA? If so, could you tell me what's the deal with all these Golden Age heros (like Old School Helmet Flash) hanging out with our modern continuity Post Crisis guys.

Word. I've been a comics nerd forever, but it's nice to see a fellow fan of Hank Pym.


It's a long story. Barry Allen (the Silver Age Flash) used to read comics about Jay Garrick (the Golden Age Flash). He later vibrated to Earth-2 and met the original Flash. Post-Crisis, all of the Earths were merged. IIRC, most of the GA heroes are kept young by magic. Some of them were killed in Zero Hour when Extant (formerly Monarch and, quite ridiculously, Hawk) returned them to their normal ages. Zero Hour is the event that launched the current JSA book.

In the post-crisis continuity, the Golden Age heroes were always there, having been active in the '40s and early '50s. Most of them hung up their masks in the early '50s during an anti-hero McCarthy-type witchhunt, although some of them stayed active on an intermittent basis. Most of the originals have died over time, either in the line of duty or from old age, but a few have stayed young through various mechanisms:

• Green Lantern (a.k.a. Sentinel) is the living embodiment of the Starheart, which is a meteorite that is actually the wreck of an early experiment by the Guardians of Oa (the guys who made the Green Lanterns' rings). As such, he's kept pretty young.
• Flash I is kept young by the speed force.
• Wildcat was magically given cat-like attributes at some point, one of which was 9 lives. (Which explains why he isn't dead, but doesn't explain why he can fight so well at age 70.)
• Hawkman I (Carter Hall) was somehow dimensionally replaced by Katar Hol of Thanagar, and during that time, Carter Hall was in a kind of limbo and did not age.
• Sand (a.ka. Sandy the Golden Boy, teen sidekick of the original Sandman) was turned into a silicon monster for decades, and during that time he did not age.
• The Specter was always dead, so it doesn't really matter that at some point Jim Corrigan was replaced by Hal Jordan
• Johnny Thunder was dying of Alzheimer's -- somehow the pink genie was able to merge with him, so he lives on as the personality of the genie, which is now controlled by some other kid.
• Hourman (Rex Tyler) was pulled away from the moment of his death and given 60 minutes in some kind of limbo. His son, the current Hourman, can step into that limbo and chat with him, but when his 60 minutes are up, he'll die. (At some point, his son was critically injured and switched places with him, so the original Hourman was hanging out with the current JSA.
• Wonder Woman is actually Diana's mother, Hypolita. At some point in modern times, she took her daughter's place, but then travelled back in time and joined the JSA in the '40s. She sometimes comes along on their present day adventures.

All the others you see in the JSA are modern heroes adopting the names, looks, and/or powers of the former Golden Age heroes. Many of them are children of, or otherwise related to, the originals.

The android Hourman (who was with the team near the beginning of the newest JSA book) came back and replaced Rex in the battle with Extant. Now Rex and Rick are both alive.


Hippolyta died a couple of years ago. I don't think she's been resurrected, but I could be wrong.

Wow! Thanks Distant Sun and LTG. I picked up the latest issue of JSA and was just thrown by Old Timey Flash. I'm sure he's a great character but I can't get past that helmet. I can't take him seriously.

Assuming he's not tied-up with some kind of restrictive copyright situation, I hope the creative PTB of JLU give Hourman a larger role next season. Well, I don't know much about the character other than LTG's brief character history but he has a cool costume. My superficial impression of him is that he's a kind of a mystical, dark brooding character - though, I'm probably way off target.

Can I just say i think Crisis complicated more things than it solved? The old Earth-1/2 split made alot of sense to me and was a good system of dealing with the never aging comic character, Spiderman has to be like 55 now. In hind sight I wish they had just reset the continuity to Earth-3 instead of wiping everything out.

Well, yes and no. For instance, there was already an Earth-3. It was the home of the Crime Syndicate, an evil version of the JLA and basis for JLU's Justice Lords.

I liked the Pre-Crisis stories, but I can certainly see why they wanted to streamline things into one universe. Unfortunately, it didn't work out as well as people hoped.


If you can't take Flash's helmet seriously, I can't imagine what you think of Power Girl's cleavage hole. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant "Galatea." (Why the hell didn't they just call her Power Girl?)

Yeah, if it was just 2 Earths you had to deal with.

But then, with all the characters DC bought over the years, like the Marvels, and Blue Beetle, and such, each of those companies became a new "Earth" in the DC Multiverse. Suddenly there were easily half a dozen Earths to keep track of, and that's why the Crisis came in.

You're right though, that it didn't solve everything. Which led to Zero Hour. Which is a whole can of worms in its own right.

In Batman: The Animated Series, there was an episode where Joker did a man a "favour" by not killing him, and his Gotham driver's license mentioned that the city was Gotham, NY.

Zero Hour came out five years before the current JSA title started. By the end of ZH, most of the old JSA were dead or aged and there was'nt an active team anymore.

ZH did, however, introduce the Jack Knight Starman, who was one of the original members of the current team.

Ah dude, you had to remind me of that?! I guess they were going for the slutty gymnast look. And I'm still baffled by Supergirl's half baby tee. It's just not a practical top. But then, when has a superhero's costume ever been practical. Why does Superman need a cape? Yes, it's quite stylish when fluttering while airborne but it's not as if he uses it like a shield like Batman does. I guess it's handy for the wrapping of naked victims. Lex could've used the cape in Divided We Fall...too bad he royally pissed Supes off. See, karma!

If, for some reason, Metropolis and Gotham cannot be split personalities of NY, then Gotham has to be NY, since the real NY is often referred to as "Gotham". I like the idea that Metropolis=Chicago. It still has a port area that can be "Suicide Slum", and while it's not as "city of tomorrow" as Metropolis, it feels more like it than anywhere else.