I'm sure there are people who think Aquaman is hot. Besides, he has as many powers as WW (if you take away her equipment). They're both super strong and super fast. She can fly, but he has sonar and night vision. The magic lasso gives her the edge; without it, I'd call it a draw. Yes, I'm aware that her truth-forcing power is supposed to be innate now.

I don't think he's nearly as strong as she is. Unless they've retconned that. And I forget what Batman's fix for her was, but for Aquaman, it was to severely dehydrate him.

And flying would be much more useful than having to occupy the "bitch" seat on the Invisible Plane.

Well, WW's current power level is a retcon. Anyway, he's probably not as strong as she is, but I doubt he's far off. However, he should be more resistant to physical punishment.

IIRC, Batman's plan to defeat Diana was to make her brainwash her into fighting a nonexistent enemy. Since she wouldn't give up, she'd fight until she died from overexertion. BTW, he didn't directly dehydrate Aquaman. Instead, he made him afraid of water.

Can't she fly in space unprotected?

And Batman has the BEST plans.

I don't know, but he survives at the bottom of the ocean unprotected.

And of the two, I know which one has more practical use considering the villians they usually face.

Post-crisis, isn't WW supposed to be second only to Superman in terms of strength? I mean Aquaman's no wimp in the strength department, but he certainly isn't close to Supes.

I think that's the case alexias. Her and J'onn are really the only heroes of that strength capability.

Though, with the will power thing, GL (not John, he never seemed to really tap into his will just right) could wipe the floor with any of them. Just look at Parallax (before the awful retcon), hell even before then, Hal could do some damage just by force of will.

You are all forgetting that Aquaman has "finny friends" and an aqua-hand, while Wonder Woman has neither.

She has a large chest...

Maybe, but what do you think he smells like? Fresh like an ocean breeze, or stinky like a sea lion? It's so hard to tell from just comic books and cartoons.

Holy crap, that's so lame! This is from that JLA story a couple of years ago, right? God, I'm glad I quit reading it before then.

I wouldn't say it's a retcon so much as newly establising continuity. After all, it's not really contradicting continuity when the continuity itself was brand new following Crisis.

And from the previous page, Merey, yes that's how it ties into OMAC.

Diana shouldn't be either. This "Big 3" crap is the main thing I hate about DC and this show. Anyone who would bet on WW in a fight with, say, Captain Marvel should be shot. Come to think of it, since they share some benefactors, that might be interesting. You know, until Diana loses...

"WW second only to Superman in strength" is yet another example of the once-great John Byrne's crack addiction.

Maybe they also wanted a superheroine to be one of their physical powerhouses. Historically, it was rare for a major female character to have significant super strength without being a knock off of a male character (e.g., Mary Marvel, Supergirl, She-Hulk, She-Thing), and female characters were more likely to have vaguely defined magical or psionic powers, or no super powers at all, than to tear things apart with their bare hands.

It's one of the things I find most boring about Superman. He doesn't face many dangerous opponents, with the exception of Luthor and Brainiac who are using their wiles to almost beat him. It's like rooting for goliath or the Yankees.

I agree. I've always preferred Captain Marvel because, while they're very similar, secretly being a kid is more interesting than being an alien IMO. Unfortunately, the Big Red Cheese has been way below Superman's stature for a long time now.

I'd say Darkseid and Doomsday are pretty dangerous...

And let's not forget about the Parasite, Bizzarro (he may be as dumb as a rock, but he is as strong as Supes), and Mxzlkasld (ok, so I cant spell, sue me... :P)

I agree that Superman is a little boring, but it has nothing to do with the villains he faces. With Supes, everything is black and white. There is no grey in his moral compass. One of the appealing aspects of, say Batman, is her has a well developed dark side. Being referred to as the Big Blue Boy Scout isnt exactly a compliment. That said, the writers has tried to add depth to Superman over the years and I think they have had some success.

Mxyzptlk. And it's pronounced, according to STAS as "Mix Yes Spit Lick". Which sounds better, I think, than how I pronounced it growing up, "Mixezpittleick". Not sure how other Superman shows have handled it (the only thing I would have gone back to Smallville for would be the death of Lana or Mxyzptlk, and I didn't find out he was going to be on it until long after it had aired.

I would love to see Mxy cross paths with the Justice League. Gilbert Gottfried was the perfect voice, and I thought Dini was fairly creative in how they handled the "say my name backwards" motif. Particularly, "Say your name backwards? I can't even say it forwards." "You don't have to say it, I have to say it." "Say what?" "Kltpzyxm. Aw crap."

Off topic...

I wouldnt give upon Smallville too quickly:

[/SPOILER]Brainiac and Aquaman are supposed to guest star this season.[SPOILER]

I didn't give up on it too quickly. I gave it 3 seasons and 2 episodes, and finally it was too much crap. I might view an episode here or there, but I'm in the camp now that the only way I'm going to enjoy the DCU on television anymore is through animation. And even at that, I only really have JLU, because I can't stand "The Batman" and just don't like the look of "Teen Titans".

The problem with Superman villians is there really are only two kinds:
1. The kind he could mop the floor with if he really just went shithouse on them.
2. World destroyers.

And you can't pull out #2 too often. It makes them commonplace.

The Smallville Clark is the only Superman I really like (besides the movies). A lot of that has to do with Lex, who rocks. I can also tolerate him in JLU because he's not the only character. I've been a comics collector for almost all of my life, but I've never even been tempted to collect a Superman book.

I totally get liking SV Lex, but SV Clark is an asshat of such outrageous proportions he makes JL's "Might Makes Right" Superman seem reasonable by comparison. JL Clark may be a jerk for having a relationship with Lois without telling her of his dual identities, but SV Clark is mistrusting, whiny bitch who wouldn't know friendship and loyalty if it came up and slapped him around with a Kryptonite ring.

That's what I like about him. He's believable.

I do like the fisrt two Superman movies. Cris Reeve did a great job with the part, just the right bit of light heartedness, Hackman and Stamp go all guns with their roles.

"YOU WILL BOW DOWN BEFORE ME SON OF JOR-EL!"

But I think Adam West was the best live action Batman, so what do I know?

Count me as liking the Smallville Clark, too. I do think his portrayal is generally good and realistic. He's not perfect, but he tries to do the right thing. I think there are flaws here and there, and I certainly like Lex and Chloe much better as characters. But I think his mistrust plays well because he has often had good reason. Pete Ross wasn't exactly a good test case for starters. He's seen how his parents have been put into danger because they know his secret. And lets face it, most of his friends have betrayed him in some way or another. I don't even mind what an asshat he's been to Lex in the last season, because Lex was outed for lying to him. Chloe betrayed his trust on several occasions and nearly got herself killed because of it. Still, Clark's primary motivation is fear for those around him. They are called secret identities after all. You don't go blabbing them to anyone who befriends you.

That's kind of harsh. I wouldn't mind betting on Diana, especially since it was shown recently in the comics that she can put up a good fight with Superman. Although, I 've never really read a Captain Marvel comic so I don't know very much about CM.

Oh, I see, nobody else is going to put their hand up?!?! Fine! Aquaman's hot, okay? He is!

Well, Aquaman with long hair and a hook/harpoon/hand is hot.

Aquaman with an orange tee shirt, no. Water hand sucks too.

Captain Marvel is adorable. He's just adorable. I wanted to give him a hug and some chocolate milk. His thought on asking the Atom to look at the reactor didn't suck either; they have a transporter, for Christ's sake.

Superman is such a fascist, I'm sad Green Arrow and The Question missed his whole riff about nobody having opinions he doesn't approve of. WTF?

After their inane takes on Supergirl and The Flash (not to mention "Bruce," Perry, and Lois), that news doesn't excite me so much as it scares me.



That's about when I gave up on it, too. I think there's a difference between having a new take on the old stories (like, say, having Brainiac be sorta complicit in the destruction of Krypton) and otherwise taking the stories, pissing on them, and adding 150% more sex and teen drama (did I mention I hate Kara?).

Topic? Like he is as The Flash in JLU, Michael Rosenbaum is the best thing Smallville has going for it.

When you factor in the Amazon training and the fact that Diana isn't above killing a foe, I'd bet on her too.

While I understand the open hostility some Superman fans regard Smallville with, I have to count myself among it's fans. There have been misteps, for sure (introducing Lois and all that nonsense about Lana being possed, for example), but overall it is a pretty good show. They've managed to make a reviled villian (Lex) complex and even likable, and they've added some depth to an admittedly bland hero. Yes, Clark can be a whiny bitch at times, but so can most teenagers.

I'll get off my soap box now.

On topic, did anyone else catch the JLU episode featuring Batman Beyond? One of my favorite aspects of that particuliar version of the Bat was seeing where the various characters were some 50 years in the future. Yes, I am a big dork...

Sure, she can put up a good fight with Superman, but is she stronger than he is? No.



One of CM's benefactors bested the Amazons, so I don't think that'd be a problem for him. At any rate, I was obviously generalizing. When one of these clichéd superhero battles occurs, the winner is up to the whims of the writer. I'm sure someone can find some way to explain why Cap doesn't just touch Diana's bracelets together to subdue her. Anyway, I should've said it's patently ridiculous to claim that Wonder Woman is stronger than Captain Marvel outright.

I'm pretty sure that after Crisis, along with being bumped up to second only to Superman in terms of strength, they also took away the joining of the bracelets together, binding her in her own lasso, and removal of her devices as ways to subdue Diana.

Of course! I like Perez's Wonder Woman as much as the next guy, but all of these senseless retcons are too much. It used to be debatable that she was modeled after Captain Marvel, but now she's just a blatant rip-off who is somehow even stronger. Yeah, CM himself is a rip-off of Superman, but I thought DC was through with their payback when they stole Cap's power of flight, his invulnerability, the Super family idea, and finally bought out Fawcett. Does Diana still need to deflect bullets with her bracelets or is that just for show? Her vulnerability seems to be her only weakness left. At this point, I don't know why they aren't claiming she's stronger than Superman...

I would agree that "senseless retcons" are too much, but a couple of points. When the "retcon" was done post-Crisis, the concept of a "retcon" hardly even existed. The Crisis was a first. And it wasn't a "retcon", it was a restarting of continuity. They didn't go back and remove the weakness from 50 years of storytelling, they started telling a new story and chose not to include the weakness.

More importantly, to me, the whole idea of bondage and S&M behind Wonder Woman's weaknesses are both too squicky and too misogynistic. I'm not big on Wonder Woman as a dramatic character, but I'd probably just outright hate her if she was still "submissive" under certain conditions.

Point taken.

To add a real blast from the past as far as the whole Supes/Clark Kent secret identity, in the start with the original Golden Age Superman, his face was putty like and he could form it to look different. So he didn't need a mask as he looked different physically when he was Superman. In just a few years this whole thing disappeared. Just like his "x-ray vision" originally was heat vision and they later added two different abilities and x-ray vision became something different. Also he couldn't fly and just jumped long distances (hence "leap tall buildings in a single bound").

I recall another instance where Clark had made a Superman robot and had the robot and himself appear in the same place at the same time, which pretty much threw water on the suspicion that Clark and Superman were the same person.

I don't know if that scenario was used Post-Crisis or not.

Hence the post-Crisis inclusion of Arn Munro as the Golden Age Superman replacement.

Topic: Superman sucks. I am looking forward to next season and recommend folks check out the new "Justice" series as an adequate "fill in" between JLU seasons. Alex Ross art, Legion of Doom baddies...it's yummy.

Yes, that's one of the Captain Marvel powers (along with virtual invulnerability) he was given after CM became the most popular character in comics.

Do you notice you never see the Flash and Clark Kent together?

Or Bruce Wayne and Wonder Woman?

The retcon of Wonder Woman was one of the 'good' ones, IMO, for several reasons:
1) She and her sister Amazons were given semi-plausible reasons for distrusting the male-run world, at the same time granting them souls. (Maybe it's just me, but the idea of the Olympian being able to create life from scratch always bothered me, whereas creating new and improved 'containers' for already-existing life seemed within their power.)
2)The two tribes of Amazons that diverged post-captivity gave more flexibility in Amazon-related characters throughout the DCUniverse, while also allowing for Amazon-related mythology to have occurred alongside the "Paradise Island" version.
3)It always seemed wrong that Herakles, who was responsible for the Amazons' captivity, should somehow also have been the one to grant Diana her strength. The reboot had the various gifts granted by the goddesses (and Hermes), which made more sense.
4)And Wonder Woman was too tied into World War II in her previous incarnation, though that has continued to be a problem for the writers at DC.

I meant the retcon that eliminated the submission weaknesses. Despite making her even more similar to Captain Marvel, I also like the majority of the WW reboot (with the notable exception of her alleged "second only to Superman" strength).

I don't know if it fits as retconning, but in the early 70's they made Wonder Woman a more karate type hero, before they realized it was a mistake changing her after a couple years.

Something like that. Back in 98/99-ish Superman got possessed by one of his villains and turned fascistic. He built a bunch of Superman robots that helped him basically take over the world. After it was all over, most of the robots were either destroyed or disabled except for one that seemed to be disabled and was taken back to STAR labs.

A couple years ago, in a story called Graduation Day, the Titans and Young Justice were investigating a robot from the future that inadvertantly awoke the Superman robot in order to repair herself. It ended up killing Donna Troy and Lilith/Omen (both of whom are apparently alive again through unrevealed circumstances), and I think it made an appearance in the most recent Teen Titans issue.

Didn't he escort her to the ball or whatever it was where she met the Princess of Kasmir?

Anyone see Dark Heart last night? I thought it was pretty good... nice use of Batman. I think I like KC's Batman voice in JLU better than B:TAS... it's more calm, focused. Although I wonder why he didn't have a parachute when he had to eject.. not like him to be unprepared.

Does anyone know who the the Shadow-like JLU member in red cape and twin pistols was? He was in the same shot as Vigilante.