I'm kinda surprised that Cadmus didn't try to have Hawkgirl arrested.

No kidding. They would have had ample public opinion and reason to do so.

Didn't mean to run things into the ground. Though it would be nice to see the JLU be up against something that punching or intimidation can't fix. Red Tape or lawsuits, etc would be neat.

It agree it would be neat... in theory. But I think it would actually be quite dull to see on screen.

Just imagine...

10 minutes of a poor, harried process server trying to serve a subpoena to the Watchtower.

5 minutes of the JLU puzzling over the language of the subpoena until they call in SuperLawyerMan and his Paralegal Corps!

10 minutes of pretrial motions on everything from allowing the heroes to wear their masks in court to the legality of Wonder Woman swearing to Zeus to the applicability of US civil rights laws to extradimensional beings and Martians.

I would love a comic that focused on the legal aspects of the superhero biz, similar to how Gotham Central portrays regular cops, but I wouldn't want to see it in a cartoon.

roosterboy There was a comic book years ago that dealt with the clean up after a superhero event--car wrecks, twisted skyscrapers, etc. I want to say Marvel did it but I'm not sure.



Read somewhere years ago--can't remember if it was someone's theory or someone actually involved with the book--that the glasses Superman wore worked with his mind and became a disguise. He projected the image of clark that he wanted people to see through the glasses and that's how he was seen.

It was Marvel. Called Damage Control.

And sure it would be boring, but you could combine it with other things. I just always want to see something other than the stereotypical "Mwahaha" approach to villany.

That's about as lame as the cellophane "S" that Superman threw at one of the bad guys in Superman II. And that's VERY lame.

I like it better that Lois falls into the bitchy, sexy, but dumbest smart reporter...ever.

And it was written by Dwayne McDuffie, if memory serves.

Re: Superman's secret identity... There was also a theory that Superman subtly vibrates his face so that no one ever gets a clear look at him, thus enabling his Clark Kent identity to be effective. Of course, that doesn't explain why Kent is so muscley like Supes, but oh well.

They've tried to explain this away with various explanations over the years. I believe that currently, in addition to the face vibration:

-Superman and CK have different voices, body postures, and attitudes.
-Superman and CK have been photographed together several times.
-The vast majority of the public thinks that Superman has no secret ID since he doesn't wear a mask.
-No one's ever looked outside the Kent apartment and seen Superman flying in and out.
-In fact, no one's ever noticed that Superman spends an awful lot of time in the vicinity of the Daily Planet.
-Clark's had the great fortune of hanging out with people who completely ignore his face, body type, and frequent absences whenever something big is happening.
-I may have made those last few up.

How could Superman see without his glasses?

Contact lenses?

TOPIC: (but not really) You know who should be in the JLU? Swamp Thing. He seems like a real upstanding guy in those crappy movies with Louis Jordan.

I think a battle of the Justice League vs. Red Tape could be interesting if it was an ongoing story that was the B or C plot of several episodes.

However, it could be a disaster because the show would have to address thorny legal isssues that would have been ignored otherwise. We could end up with episodes consisting entirely of exposition on who has legal jurisdiction over the League, who's paying for the Watchtower, how is Bruce Wayne able to spend so much money on his superhero activities without anyone (except Waller) noticing, what is the legal status of aliens such as J'onn, are superheroes required to testify in court against villains they've captured, are they required to reveal their secret identities when they testify (and are they arrested for contempt if they don't), do villains sue superheroes for personal injury (yes, I watch Harvey Birdman), does the law take telepathy and mind control powers into account during trials, do Justice League members have to do a lot of paperwork, could the Justice League avoid dealing with Waller's Red Tape if everybody moved to Canada or France, etc. If the explanations are going to be as lame as Superman's face vibration, I'd rather they not go there.

By the way, we did get to see Waller and Luthor conduct a public relations assault on the League. It's not the same as burying them in Red Tape, but it's more sophisticated than just busting heads.

Why does he even need an ID? Wally doesn't have one and he does OK. Granted, most of his family has powers so there not exacly helpless.

Speaking of ID's. Considering all the people that know who Batman, Nightwing and Robin really are, how much of a secret ID does Batman really have?

Well except for that whole unborn children killed in the womb and wife left barren by an obsessed psycho Zoom, thus prompting Wally to make everyone on Earth forget he's the Flash including himself thing.

Marvel's excellent She-Hulk v3 (which is returning for v4 later this year) deals with the life of Lawyers in Marvel NYC. Spider-Man sues J. Jonah Jameson for Libel, shape-shifters working as process servers, ghost of murder victims testifying at trial. Brilliant!

Kal-El has better than 20-20 vision. So Supes doesn't need corrective lenses, and Clark's glasses are made of plain non-prescription glass.


God I'm such a nerd...

So does his eyesight get bad around a red star?

Didn't the original Flash use this same technique since he didn't wear a mask either?

Well according to the Cartoon Network upcoming schedules, the will be playing the first season of Justice League at 2am, an hour total, starting this Saturday. All I have to say, 'bout damn time! Hopefully they will actually make it to the second season so we can actually see those episodes again, even wild card(fingers crossed).

It worked pretty well in The Incredibles. Heroes start getting sued right and left and costing too much money, so they are forced to leave heroing and go underground. Of course, that was mostly setup and not the focus of the story. Marvel was always much more into bringing reality into a hero's life, if the storyline wasn't retconned out of existence, which is why I stopped reading Marvel. How many times did Jean Grey and assorted others 'die'? Not to mention the alternate timelines that are always conveniently wiped out.

Superman's whole identity has been changed since Crisis. He was a groundbreaking figure in comics because he was the first one whose identity as a hero was his real self and it was as Clark he was a fake. Before that the heroes popped a pill, or pulled on a costume, but were always masquerading away from their real lives. Remember he was always described as the 'mild mannered reporter for the Daily Planet'? Lois wouldn't give him the time of day because he was such a wimp. Then when everything got rebooted he became more Clark, who just happens to be Superman. They made him like everybody else.

I was okay with most of it, but I minded the change in Terry's character design. He went from slim-and-trim to having crazy superhero muscles, which I don't think is a reasonable change if he was already at least sixteen for BB. Also, that hairstyle was awful. I'm just staying.

Not much point in complaining about it being the 'definite' sequel to B:TAS, though. Nothing can ever be called 'definite' in DC universe continuity.

Maybe Terry's hitting the creatine. I found it pretty believable, a lot of guys are much slimmer at 17 than at 30, even if they're gym rats.

Time to slip back into nerd-mode:

I believe so. That may have been the inspiration for the Supes-face-vibration theory.

Well, if by bad, you mean losing all the super-visual powers, then yes. If you mean needing prescription eyewear, then unsure.

There was an arc in the JLA comics, right after the Babel arc, where the members of the League with dual identities (all but Aquaman and WonderWoman) were all split, so the superhero and the secret identity were 2 separate beings. Both Clark and John Jones were fully human. I don't remember if Clark's glasses were actually prescription during this arc, but if they were, then Supes should need a prescription too while near red-star radiation.

In that arc ("Divided We Fall"), there were major changes to all of them as the "normal" side and the "super" side continued to diverge. Clark mentioned a fear of heights. Batman literally became faceless. If the glasses were presecription, it's because the persona of Clark Kent is a human being who needs glasses, so that's who he became. I don't think we can really gleam meaning of what Superman's eyesight in a red sun would be like from that.

Best part of that arc was Eel O'Brien (aka Plastic Man) being the one to get everyone back on their feet, including beating the everloving crap out of Bruce Wayne.

I always thought it was the opposite, which was his personality was more like Clark's, and Superman was the fake. Batman was closer to your take. Wayne's personality is more like Batman's, and he only pretends to be a billionaire playboy to fool everyone else.

I actually own that issue, how sad is that. As I recall the jist of it was that a villian with hypnosis powers came a calling and even superman was vunerable to his power. He kept hypnotising superman into believing that he was being hurt by hypnoman's punches and the like. Anyway long story short in order to nullify hypnoman's frequent use of innocent civilians superman created a sort of general hypnosis of his own in which he stated that no one in town would fall for any hypnotisim until he gave the release command or whatever. Now as chance, or perhaps bad writing, would have it no sooner does he do this then he gets caught changing out of his clark kent outfit by I think lois. She registers no real surprise though, simply asking him, superman, why he was dressing like clark kent. This dumbfounds superman who was sure he was caught. After some pointless chatter it is revealed that to lois and it is presumed everyone else, Clark kent looks smaller and frailer then superman due a sort of low grade hypnosis superman's eyes give out at all times. This, when combined with his slouching and minor voice change is enough to fool people evidently. When he gave the no hypnosis command ealier people stopped being effected by this low grade hypnosis output and so everyone see's him only as superman now and not Clark Kent. So that was the big explination as I read it. He does in the end defeat the villian and undoes his hypnosis block and everything goes back to normal.

Unfortunately, since Superman's hypnosis works only by tongue-kissing, this means he has to french kiss everyone in Metropolis twice - once to install the hypnosis block, and then once to reinstall the original hypnosis.

There's a hilarious issue of The Tick where The Tick gets a job at the Daily Planet, then gets into a fist-fight with "Clark," during which Clark's glasses get broken. As Clark picks himself out of the rubble, Jimmy shows up and says "Clark, do you look different?" The last shot of Clark is him making circles around his eyes with his fingers and shouting "No, Jimmy! Everything's perfectely normal!"

My favorite theory about Superman's "secret" identity is the one mentioned above that no one even thinks he has a secret identity to hide. The man runs around without a mask and is super-powered. The logical thing to most people, even his adversaries, is that he is just Superman. They don't suspect Clark because they don't know that there is anything to suspect in the first place. They probably just think that he, like probably a lot of people, looks kinda like Superman. I'm sure in the DC Universe, there are Superman impersonaters that work parties and TV shows. Clark's resemblance might not seem any more significant than that. That actually completely makes sense to me, without employing Silver Age weirdness about Superhypnotism.

I still think Superman is a virgin.

BStu, that has always been my take on the whole thing. Add in the fact that Clark Kent is world famous in the DCU and the number of times that Superman and Clark have been seen together in public (after the Reign of the Supermen, Supes even "found" Clark, in front of various press and onlookers, living in an air pocket in some debris that had still not been cleaned up since the battle with Doomsday), and it's easy to see why most people don't give it a second thought. Sure, there are some conspiracy theorists out there who might claim Superman gets his shape-shifting buddies to help out, and they'd be right, but most people wouldn't pay them any more credit than any other nutjob.

The fact that I don't really think it's that big a deal does not, however, keep me from enjoying the occasional secret identity joke. My favorite remains Tempus on Lois & Clark asking, "Now I can finally answer the question that mankind has asked for centuries: HOW DUMB WAS SHE???? Look, I'm Clark Kent, mild mannered reporter. NO! I'm Superman!!!!!"

There was an issue early in the Byrne reboot run (like, issue 2 or something) where Lex Luthor uses some kind of computer analysis to figure out Superman's secret identity. Upon being told that Clark Kent was the most likely candidate for the secret id, Luthor refused to believe it and canned the experiment, declaring that no one with Superman's powers would ever be so humble as to disguise himself as a lowly reporter. Luthor just figured that, like himself, Superman would have a colossal ego to go along with all his power.

SVNBob

RiverThames

Why not WonderWoman? This arc sounds interesting. Care to divulge more? Do you think this story would ever cross over to TV?

Wonder Woman doesn't have a secret Identity ...

Not Post-Crisis Wonder Woman.

You're thinking of Diana Prince, who worked at the Pentagon in Man's World.

That aspect to the character was pitched, along with the Invisible Jet, when the WW comic relanuched.

So how was Aquaman getting out of the Hall of Justice then? In the Superfriends he always had to take the bitch seat in the invisible jet.

Maybe because I liked the campy show WW and maybe because it was part of my childhood, but I always liked Diana Prince on her own. She seemed smart and tough in her own right to me. ymmv

Did Aquaman ever have a secret identity?

Doesn't WW still have her invisible jet? She's used it on the show.

She can fly perfectly fine on her own power, but she does have some kind of gods-given invisible artifact that can transform into whatever she wants it to. I think she transformed it into an invisible plane once, but I'm pretty sure she used it to transport other people rather than herself. I think most recently she used it as her headquarters before she got her current Themiscryan embassy.

Which is probably for the best, since the Diana Prince/70s show elements of the character really wouldn't vibe well with the current incarnation of the character, especially in light of the most recent issue of her book.

In which what happens?

OK, but I'll tag it.
The arc came off the heels of another arc where Batman was kicked out, because they didn't trust him-- his "How to take down the League" plans were used by Ra's al Ghul to, well, take down the League, and they didn't like that. (Much like with Hawkgirl in "Starcrossed".) But now everyone is mad and bickering, so Superman and Batman decide that the best way to get everyone's head out of their ass is to come clean and reveal secret identities. However, at the same time, this 6th Dimensional power caleld Id is on the lose, where if you wish for things, you make it real, and Supes essentially wished they didn't have to lead double lives. So, suddenly there's Bruce, Clark, Kyle, Wally, Eel and John to go with Batman, Superman, GL, Flash, Plastic Man and J'onn. Over time, the supers get more distanced from their humanity, changing their costumes, become little more than the pure essence of their identity. WW and Aquaman are kind of freaked. The humans fall apart-- Wally gets lazy, Kyle goes batshit drawing on his walls, Bruce becomes The Playboy with an angry streak (since his parents kiled in front of him is still HIS memory), Eel starts to become a thug again. He's the one who really puts together how they're falling apart, and beats the snot out of Bruce to get him riled up The human go to help the heroes stop Id (Lovely splash page, after the heroes are felled, of the six "normal" guys with baseball bats and crowbars.)
They manage to use Id to re-integrate themselves, and split the two 6-D creatures into 4 3-D ones (which are much easier to beat.)


Use the basic story on TV? Possibly. Since they don't use Plastic Man, they'd have to find someone else who could fit the same bill.

Thank you, RiverThames!

And why does this part not surprise me? -- Wally gets lazy *g*

The TV version probably would use their GL:John Stewart for the Plasticman role. It could be an interesting couple of episodes. Shayera and J'onn would be others not affected by the "change". If they stuck to the core 7, then it would be the 3 working to help the 4.

Spoilers for the latest issue of Wonder Woman:
In one of the ongoing storylines going on through the DCU, Superman was being fed illusions by Max Lord (the guy responsible for the Ultimen in the cartoon and the JLE/JLI in the comics) and using him to target other heroes. Superman beat the crap out of Batman and a bunch of other heroes while believing they were villains, culminating in him battling Wonder Woman while believing she was Doomsday. Supes was trying everything he could to kill Diana/Doomy, and Diana had to resort to some severe tactics to keep from dying (trying to gouge his eyes out when he burns her with heat vision, using her tiara to slit his throat Wesley Wyndham-Pryce-style to try to break Max's hold). In the end, Diana gets Max in her magic lasso (the one that forces people to tell the truth) and forces him to reveal how break the hold permanently: kill Max. When Max makes it clear that there's no other way to stop it, Diana snaps his neck; unfortunately, Superman sees what Diana's done as soon as he snaps out of it and he's pissed that she would kill a man, even an evil and dangerously powerful one, to save him (after all, this is the same Supes who wouldn't kill the Joker to cure his own wife's then-fatal affliction).

Yes. He used to be Arthur Curry, but that turned out to be a lie.

And yes, since he's also the King of Atlantis, that made him King Arthur.

*rim shot* ;0)

Thanks, Distant Sun, I appreciate the info!

Interesting,DMike. Yes, I can see where this WW and the 70s WW would not mesh.

They've hardly ever been subtle about the Aquaman = King Arthur thing, they recently had the Lady in the Lake show up and give him a magical "Water Hand".

When is DC going to realize that Aquaman is just inherently lame? It doesn't matter how much they try to make him like Namor, or what ridiculous power upgrades they give him, Aquaman is lame.

That's why I mentioned it right away. :)

I don't think Aquaman is lame at all. In fact, even though I'm a Marvel man through and through, I much prefer him to Namor. He has enough powers without any upgrades, though. Common sense combined with knowledge of the ocean should be enough to prove just how powerful he is. Unfortunately, Super Friends basically ruined his reputation.

You're welcome, elle.

Aquaman lost me with the orange and green ensemble.

Sure, it's lame to us. But in Atlantis, it's all the rage.

I think Aquaman is pretty cool, but it is true, they do kind of have to work doubletime to prove he's nowhere near the loser people think he is.

Between Robot Chicken's Real World: Metropolis, and that The State sketch from years and years ago... Aquaman has an uphill climb. I still think he's a big loser though.

DMike - is the Supes and Diana fight the one that proceeds the beginning of the 4th OMAC issue. At the beginning of that issue both Supes and Diana are all bloodied and angry and there's no explaination. I knew there were some tie-in issues but I've long ago lost track of it all.

Aquaman has the same problem that Wonder Woman and Black Panther have. He's an outsider from a fictional society, and his stories necessarily depend on Atlantis, Atlantean politics, etc. (As opposed to Superman, who is essentially American). It's very hard to make that interesting.

Except that Wonder Woman, for a comic character is hot. And has much better super powers. I mean, underwater breathing? Fish telepathy? Lame.