According to CN's site, they'll repeat it tomorrow (Sunday, July 24) at 10:30 PM.

I liked it. A few moments seemed too contrived, but I actually got a bit misty at the end. But I do just really like it when they start linking all the series (and even Mask of the Phantasm!) together, I admit it.



That's what I thought, what with him also having the black hair. I wonder what the hell that kid is like, all grown up without becoming Batman. He was a bit of a shit.

Thanks, shdwrlm. Must stay away from thread until then.

No, but they may have the same genetic predisposition to certain physical and mental characteristics. Nature vs. nurture. Bruce's DNA provided nature; Waller's assassin was meant to provide nurture...in a way.

Huh?

This just came out of nowhere, didn't it? Amanda Waller, so in love with Batman, decides to play Boys of Brazil: The Home Game and tries to make her own Bats, via Project: Batman Beyond.

Okay...I liked the story. I liked most of it. But the premise...Terry always being destined to be Batman, as opposed to being a snot-nosed punk who avenged his father's death by ripping off an advanced Batsuit. Having Terry being Batman's kindasorta biological son takes away from that.

Waller...wow, she really loved Bruce, didn't she? I just have this image of her overflowing in a teddy, lying down in Bruce's bed. Brrrrrrrr.

Flashbacks...so JLU: Beyond is still the same people, sans Barda. Dissapointing. At least Buddha Lantern grew up some. And who was the first guy that was attacking? He sounded like Mad Stan, but BL said that 3/4s of the bad guys were BatFoes...that would be Inque, Shriek, and jungle hunter guy whose name I've forgotten.

Current day...Nifty look for the new Royal Flush Gang. Scary that "Queen" was a burly guy. Double brrrrrrrrrr.

Dana...fifteen years? That long dating Terry? I bet they didn't get frisky in that period. I hope she grew a personality between the end of the series and now.



Awwwwww....he was little. All little kids are brats, aren't they? Now, if it turned out that he became Robin? I'd drive my head into the wall.

While the Batman Beyond stuff was cool to me, the moment that I liked the best from the episode was the "flashback" to Batman's team taking down the Royal Flush Gang.

I felt bad for Ace...and was glad that Batman solved the problem in the way he knew best. It was ... sweet. Something we don't always get to see of Batman, though we know it's there.

So, lemme get this straight: Epilogue might've been the series finale, right? Or was that just never in the cards?

I'll comment on everything else later because, uh, there was some serious ret-conning going on here. Big time. Continuity had herself a gay ol' time though. I'll need to watch this one again.

In short this show is no longer called "Justice League Unlimited", it has been retitled "Batman -- The Greatest Super-Hero Ever, and Anyone Who Doesn't Think So is Wrong, 'Cause Batman is the Greatest and this Episode Proves it, and all Those other Characters Suck, On Account of Their Not Being Batman, So You People who are Fans of Any Other Justice Leaguer Should Just Get Over It and Start Worshiping the Bat-God -- Unlimited".

Coloring had me thinking Parasite.

Male Queen, schmale Queen; Samurai Jack was a black guy, and that just makes me chuckle.

A really well crafted episode and a heck of performance from CCH Pounder. I hope the don't ignore Cadmus next season. She doesn't need to be there all the time, but keep up the notion of her and Cadmus being a lurking force observing the action and sometimes participating.

One question, as I never bought the Batman Beyond movie, what the heck was Terry referencing with regards to Tim Drake?

What happened to the first Royal Flush Gang? Were they the same people that the League fought in Las Vegas under the Joker's control?

You sound kind of bitter, Perfect Xero. This episode is the finale to Batman Beyond, not JLU. Considering that Batman has been in more episodes of the DCAU than anyone else, it's only fitting that he gets a sendoff. Whatever else you may think of the chartacter, there's no STAS, JL, or JLU without the success of BTAS and Batman in general.



Her line about being government liason implies that she'll be around.



Joker created a microchip with his DNA/personality that he planted on Tim when he managed to capture/torture him. Tim killed the Joker, but they never found the chip, and eventually (BB time) Joker managed to manifest himself and cause some problems before Terry finally destroyed the chip. Similar to the Lex/Brainiac thing.

It implies that she should be around, but given that it was written with the idea that this could be the series finale, I wouldn't take it as an implication for the next season.



Absolutely a different Royal Flush Gang. They even reference that in the episode when Waller notes that they aren't the first to use that name. No background on the members except that Ace granted them their powers and they basically just went on their own after getting what they wanted from Ace.

So's Bruce. And Terry was supposed to be a juvenile delinquent. And Matt was much closer to the age Bruce was when he actually lost his dad... I liked Matt, I hope he became a hero without Bruce's help, and without being twinked like Terry was.

I like that the movie Terry was leaving when the Phantasm almost struck featured the Grey Ghost. Nice little touch.

Then they put the wrong credits at the opening, because all those shots of Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, et cetera in the opening credits had me thinking that this was supposed to be an episode about the Justice League, not just Batman and how important he is.



Send-off? Unless Batman is going to stop appearing the JLU series next season there's no point in giving him a sendoff ... All this episode does is trash what they had built in Batman Beyond (and Terry) along with all the current JLU members in an effort to prove how great Batman is.

I mentioned this a while back in the Batman thread, but I love Batman as a character. Batman is great. Batman: The Animated Series is the best cartoon ever IMO. In that series Batman is a fallible man who does his best to help and protect people.

But you have Batman hang out with heroes with super powers and suddenly writers feel compelled to prove that Batman belongs in the super powered club by showing that not only is he as good as all of the other heroes, but that he is, in fact, better than them. It's just ... annoying. He stops being BatMAN and becomes the infallible BatGOD.

Since I believe there was the possibility that this was the series finale for JLU, I think it's only fitting that it circled right back to where it began. Right down to the silhouette. If there was never another Timmverse cartoon after this one, this was the way to end it all. I think of it as the almost-successful version of what Bermaga tried to do with Enterprise. They had an arc-closing episode, and then a "6 years later..." series finale that was supposed to have sent the whole Trek franchise off with a "valentine" to the fans. I don't think it worked. But here, I think it could have. BTAS started it all, it would have been fitting for it to have ended just this way.

But, there's another season to come, which kind of robs the episode of a lot of the emotional punch it should have packed.

I loved it thoroughly, but then Beyond was always my favorite Timmverse show in the final analysis. But the dialogue needed some polishing. I think the joke of "not remotely what I meant" and Amanda's statement of faith went by too quickly to really take hold and mean something.



Since it was black and white, that's an interesting turn of phrase. But it was definitely Parasite; it had the funky metal outfit he wore in STAS. The mouth threw me though; that's a first for the Timmverse Parasite, I believe.

I swear that was Sergeant Kabukiman, NYPD.

What was the point of having the coda of Batman and Batman Beyond as a JLU episode? It's completely out of step with the Justic League, except as Parasite said to show how great and awsome and necessary Batman is over the other characters. And for Timm to say it's my universe, I can do what I want. Batman staying with Ace until she died was poignant, otherwise I found the whole thing annoying. Terry being his genetic son really does crap on the original idea that he was an angry young punk that Bruce decided to train. It says only Bruce's son can be Batman, but Dick became a successful hero without that. Instead it was all the machinations of Amanda Waller.

I think the point was that it was intended to be a coda for the entire Timmverse, a potential series finale. Even if it wasn't, where else were they going to put the Batman coda? There isn't a Timmverse Batman series anymore, and it's not like this episode really had enough material to stretch into a movie.

Thankfully, it's not the finale, because next season sounds like fun. But given the awesome "series finale" feel of "Divided We Fall", I think I could have welcomed this as the epilogue to the entire last 13 years.

That's why I was wondering how he'd turn out. Especially because of the influence Terry would have on his life. Terry would be living a double life and not always there for him; I could see Matt turning spiteful and also getting into trouble. But I'd also wonder about the difference it would make to have a mother around (as much as I love Alfred, he ain't a mother) for him.

Oh well, I'll never find out. Just like the mystery of "What ever happened to Dick?" was never answered on BB, either.

I think that this episode really does work well as an "epilogue" to Timm's DC universe. It did conveniently link quite a few elements though, and that certainly seemed forced.



Saw that coming.

I didn't really feel like Bruce being Terry's biological father really damaged any of Batman Beyonds main themes to badly. One of the main themes of BB to me was that Terry would sometimes question his merits in carrying on the Batman tradition. He'd question if he was Batman because he had the inner drive needed to be Batman, or if he was just feeding of the drive of Old Bruce. He'd question if he was Batman because of personal talent or if it was just the suit that did all the work. Questioning whether or not he's Batman because he made himself Batman or if he's Batman because he's the biological son of Bruce Wayne fits into this theme pretty well, in my opinion.

Also, does the fact that Terry is the son of Bruce really change much? The only advantage I can see to being blood related to Bruce is that Terry would have a healthy and athletic parent, which might predispose him to being healthy and athletic. This isn't really even much of an advantage, either. Batman mostly trained himself to be as fit as he was, I'm sure a non crime busting obsessed Bruce wouldn't be much more healthy then any other reasonably fit man of his age. So "Terry, son of Bruce" and an Elseworlds "Terry, son of healthy Joe blow" wouldn't be far apart in their capabilities pre-meeting Old Bruce. The real importance of their relationship is not in their blood, but in their experinces with each other. Heck, even if they weren't related I'd say that Terry and Old Bruce would have developed a kind of father/son relationship, or at least as close to one as Old Bruce can get.

Count me in on the "liked Epilogue" side. It wasn't perfect, but as Dwayne McDuffie said earlier "We have one episode where we just go crazy with fanboy continuity". After 13 years, they've earned it.

Of special note is that it's clear that this IS the beginning of the end for the Timmverse. This was undoubtedly the last time we'll get to see Terry McGinnis as Batman. Considering that Batman Beyond was the ultimate "what if" tale, it's only fair that Batman Beyond itself gets another "what if" applied to it's own series. Nice to see that Dana and Terry end up together, and equally as nice to see that Max has long been forgotten. Batman Beyond was decidedly more unfocused than the other series (the lack of an overall arc killed it) but it is home to some of the best tales the Bat mythos has ever seen. Check out Meltdown, Rebirth, Out of the Past, and the Return of the Joker movie for Batman Beyond as it's best. The only thing that was never answered was the great mystery of Dick Grayson's life after Gotham Adventures.

Epilogue is a love letter written to the Batman legend, and although some have voiced anger that the last shot of Batman is one of Bruce Wayne, it is a fitting send off. The Batman lives on as a symbol, whereas Bruce Wayne passes on, defiant to the end.

As noted earlier, epilogue kicks off what is, in my mind, the end of the Timmverse. The formation of the ultimate bad guy pow-wow next season is fanboy dream come true. These last 13 episodes are a sendoff to not just the JLU, but to the entire DC Universe. In the meantime, Superman TAS will recieve it's send off via a direct to dvd release later this year. My money is on the movie ending with Clark taking off the glasses..... with a closing shot of Lois' shocked face. A fitting end, is it not?

Um, bad news about that direct to video Superman release. Its not going to be a Timmverse movie.

I don't think the whole "its all about Batman" thing holds much weight. The idea was to bring the whole thing back to the begining. There is little denying that Batman is the foundation of the DCAU. Bringing this back to him, exploring his fate more, was a perfectly worthy goal. Superman got his possible send-off in the last episode when they returned him to his boy scout roots and left us with Lois and Clark to close things out.

But it wasn't exploring Batman's "fate" at the end of the episode the Beyond-verse is still at the status quo, Terry is still Batman and Bruce is still his "boss". The whole point of the episode is that Batman Bruce Wayne is so important to the world that his former enemy is willing to dedicate her life to ensuring that he has an heir to the throne ... er ... cowl. On top of that it was, sloppy and believability stretching ret-conning ...

Okay, Terry is a normal kid whose father is murdered and he ends up stumbling on the bat-cave and stealing the Bat-suit to get the criminals who did it? I can almost buy that. Terry is the genetically created "son" of Bruce Wayne whose father happens to be killed and he happens to end up at Wayne Manor and he happens to stumble upon the Bat-cave and he takes up the mantle of Batman without either of them knowing that he is Bruce Wayne's "son"? Yeah, f'n right!

And to what end? The only point is to prove Batman is superior to the other heroes. They could've done a Batman "coda" without the need to have Amanda Waller telling us how Batman is greater than all of the other Justice Leaguers. Hell, if they really wanted a "coda" to Bruce Wayne they could've had the fight with Ace take place in the future, elderly Bruce could've been the one who went in to sit with her until she died. It ties things together with JLU since Bruce and Terry end up cleaning up one of Waller's 'old messes' and it leaves out all the massive ret-conning of "Terry! I am your FATHER!"

But that wouldn't have been hitting us over the head with the "Batman is GOD" stick nearly enough, so instead we get an episode of Waller telling Terry off to prove how important Bruce is ...

The only thing I didn't like about the ep was at the end of it all, Terry's the heir to the mantle of the Bat. The heir to Wayne industries and his fortune. The son Bruce never had and the family he's been missing all the years. That's great, for him, but what about Dick Grayson? once again he (hell, his entire purpose in Bruce's life) gets screwed over royaly.



Wasn't that coverd with Bruce and Talia's son I'bn Al...um, Son of the Bat? I never read his series. But I think he grew up to be weird combo of Batman and Bruce Wayne, despite being raised by Ra's.

As for the japanese looking Jack being black. Jacko refrence, perhaps? J/K.

The Batman-Ace scene reminded me of a scene in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "I Was Made to Love You." The BtVS scene worked a lot better because it was a low key scene that was just part of the story, whereas the Batman scene was self-consciously presented as part of the episode's heavy-handed message about how Batman is the bestest superhero ever.

I think Amanda Waller's stupid, irrational obsession with Batman needed to be fleshed out more. Unless we're supposed to believe the crap about Batman being so much more special than everyone else, in which case you might as well dress him in pink and call him "Lana." The fact that the Timmverse started with Batman does not justify presenting this nonsense on JLU. This would have been ridiculous even if this was an episode of Batman Beyond.



Try nowhere. If this is how they chose to end things, they would have been better off not doing it at all.

No, I really think it was a Samurai Jack shoutout, since the voice of Samurai Jack was Phil LaMarr, our own Jon Stewart.



To each his own. Don't think it's anything to get angry over.



There was no comparison here, so the point isn't that Batman is superior to the other heroes, it's that he's awesome in and of himself. He's the human face of the JLU, and the only one of the three main pillars who's mortal, hence the only one you really need to worry about the "legacy" of, since Superman and Wonder Woman won't ever really need protegees.

It's not like she said, "Flash sucks because he doesn't have the drive and determination of Batman." Sure, you could infer that from the fact that she didn't mention the other heroes at all, but since the focus was Terry and Batman, and not any of the other heroes, that's hardly damning evidence unless you're looking for it.

Man, I love the Royal Flush Gang. That soungs like a good ep. Am I wrong or has it never aired in Canada?

BTW, should'nt Superman be the most important hero ever?

Well, ya know, the website is called "Television Without Pity" ...

Seriously, I get it. But being snarky is different from being bitter, I think, and the point was I just don't see this one episode being worth getting so worked up over. Especially since we'd seen nearly no Batman at all in the previous episodes. If you didn't like it, I can totally see why. But saying it's a horrible episode that didn't deserve to be made seems harsh.



Yes, but he's also nigh immortal and thus doesn't need someone to pass his mantle to.

It was kind of a waste of time. If they'd really wanted to do that they could have just given it a bigger plot and turned it into a movie. It probably shouldn't have been a Justice League episode.

I don't think the episode was completely devoid of any redeeming qualities. CCH Pounder was great, for example. But I don't think it was a good episode, I don't think it was necessary to create a coda for Batman Beyond, I don't think it works successfully as a coda for Batman Beyond, and I don't think it fits as an episode of Justice League Unlimited. If anything, this episode makes me feel that Justice League and Batman Beyond don't really fit in the same universe.

Superman got his due at the end of Divided We Fall. Keep in mind that Green Arrow didn't say that the Justice League (and the world, by extension) needed the founders, he said that they needed Superman. Everyone else started applauding Superman himself, not the others, so that was his moment as the stud.

As for Waller, my personal opinion is that her irrational admiration sprung from her distrust of superpowered people and respect for a normal human who could stand with them as an equal. No other "normal" hero can claim that distinction. Whether or not Batman should be there is a separate issue, of course, but that's they way the show is presented.

I'm simply saying that they could've (and have) done much better. Even if they felt a strong need to give a "coda" to Batman (which I don't see why they'd 'need' to single out Batman) they could've come up with something stronger than a massive ret-con where Terry is transformed into Bruce's son for no good reason. If they were 'tying' things to JLU I'd much rather see old Bruce and Terry interacting with Clark and Diana to investigate some old Cadmus experiment gone wrong. I just don't see the point of making Terry Bruce's son, Bruce has a "son" his name is Dick Grayson, Terry is a friend and apprentice, not his 'son'.

If this had been the last episode the final point would've been that the remained of the league is unimportant, only Batman matters. Sorry if that message doesn't thrill me, but I got tired of the Bat-GOD being the most important person in the world around the time I was halfway through reading Dark Knight Returns.

The problem about this episode is that it wasn't even about BAtman, let alone the Justice League.Batman/Bruce could be looked at as more of a plot device or a prop used to explain more about Terry McGinnis which is what this story ended up being about.

Sure there is more to this story than that; but the 1/2 hour format and the presentation of it all destroyed all of those other aspects Timm tried to wedge in. Timm shouldn't have bothered going there as a possible series finale episode because he would need an hours worth of episodes to do what he wanted to do.


Can someone explain who is that new Green Lantern from Earth's future? It's obvious he has grown up from the few times we have seen him in Beyond but he annoys me to no end. He always appears to be so aloof that he comes across as an unrepentent asshole to me. Is he a lot more tolerable in the comics?

I'm kinda conflicted about the last episode. On one hand I think it was well written and well-storyboarded (though as Perfect Zero points out the ret-con of Terry - and presumably his brother - as Bruce's biological sons was both unncessary and a disservice to Terry's real father who got his DNA messed with).

But on the other hand I've never been a fan of the Batman Beyond universe and have only come to accept it as a possible alternate time-line because of the disservice it does to Bruce Wayne. I don't think the person he's portrayed in the comics (aside from the Frank Miller fascist version) or even how he's portrayed in the Timm-verse cartoons would really turn into such a bitter old man who has alienated everyone who ever cared about him (Barbara, Tim, Dick). The man who stayed with Ace until she died is not the one I can see becoming the Bruce in Beyond. Having the BB-world becoming the "offical" future of the JLU Batman is disappointing to say the least.

I like this episode for the mere fact that it polarizes people like no other episode has. Now, THAT, is a mark of some awesome myth-building.

Because the Timm-verse started with Batman, and Epilogue is a wrap-up of sorts to that universe?
Sure it would have been better in a series called Batman, but AFAIK, there's no Timm-related Batman stuff going on right now, and there was enough JL references in it to keep it tangential at least. It's pretty much a basic precept of the DCU. Batman is Goku. He will kick your ass eventually. It's also why I avoid the DCU like the plague. I like the animated version to death, but the comics.... not so much.

I'm still not sure about the point of this episode. Is it that your adoptive father isn't really your father unless there is a biological connection? That Batman is the only human being with heart, and Terry couldn't have gotten it from two loving parents if neither of them had Batman's DNA? That we can't trust people to carry on our work if they aren't our biological offspring?

I agree with mr.simpatico that the Bruce Wayne of Batman Beyond doesn't seem like a natural development from his characterization on Justice League. It doesn't fit the team vibe of the previous episode, with Batman and other core members holding hands to save the Flash, Batman's approving smile at Superman, and the hint that the Batman-WW ship still has a chance of sailing. I think it's possible that Bruce could have gotten more bitter, isolated, etc., as the years passed, but I don't think it works on this show because they haven't shown that transformation.



But that moment was integrated into a story about the entire League, and they built up to it over the course of several episodes.

I don't get why people think the episode is so nice to Batman. Waller felt she needed to ensure that there was another Batman. Do you think she should have focused on Green Lantern? There is another Green Lantern. Maybe Flash? For all we know, the show could take on Kingdom Come's interpretation of Flash's evolution. Even still, there will always be heros with superspeed. Superman is still around himself, as is Wonder Woman given the dialogue in JLU Season 1 finale. Want a Hawk-type hero? Got one of those, too. J'onn's still alive, too. Batman is the one who Waller knew would fade. He's the one who was just human. In her eyes, he couldn't just be replaced.

Besides that, this is Amanda Waller we're talking about. She doesn't always come up with the most sensible plans. She's just shy of supervillian status. While her motives may be sincere, her means were obviously extreme and unfocused.

I'm not even going to touch the big debate.

I just want to say that I cracked up long and hard when 10 of the Royal Flush Gang was a girl in a bathing suit with blonde corn-rolled hair. Ha!

I enjoyed the fact that Queen ended up being some fat guy. I didn't think they could get away with a drag queen. I'm assuming that 10 was modeled after Bo Derek, and "Samurai" Jack was neat. I'm not sure who King was supposed to be, although he reminded me of Humpty Dumpty.

I thought King looked an awful lot like the Collector or whatever his name was in the STAS episodes with Lobo. Humpty Dumpty, too, but I thought that of the Collector, too.

10 was hilarious.

Me am Bizarro you. Me am much angry Max gone. Me smash television and scream "Why Dana not dead?!?!? Why two Kristen Krueks in DC?!?!?!"

The key word here is "may." I still contend that Waller's plan made absolutely no sense. If she was intent on making a replacement Batman (at least physically), why not just clone him? Cadmus had the technology for it, and even if they hadn't been able to perfect cloning, they could always send out wave after wave of Batmans. As it was, her plan was far from foolproof, as evidenced by the fact that she couldn't even go through with it herself.


Over on Toonzone, the rumor was that the previously proposed "Catwoman Beyond" DTV would have dealt with a similar story (perhaps Terry was originally supposed to be the son of Bruce and Selina?). Bruce Timm said he would pop in there after "Epilogue" aired to elaborate, but Toonzone seems to be down at the moment.


I had forgotten about that, and that just took away 10 like points and added them to the hate stack. If they truly wanted to do fanservice, they would've explained what happened to Nightwing instead of spending an entire episode doing something that really didn't need to be done.


Heh, replace all instances of "Batman" with "Static" and you'd have how I feel about the Static Shock crossovers.

He's not in the comics. He just exists in the Batman Beyond-Verse. I don't think his background was revealed.

I agree.

Batman doesn't have any superpowers that Terry could inherit, and Batman's fighting skills owe as much to intensive training as to his natural abilities. The qualities that separate Batman from other people, including other heroes, are his keen intellect and vast financial resources. However, Terry didn't get Batman's keen intellect, as Waller herself admitted (and presumably knew by the time she made arrangements to kill his parents), and her plan didn't even take the importance of Batman's great wealth into account. I don't think Waller would be stupid enough to believe that killing Terry's parents would ensure that he turned out exactly like the super brilliant and super rich Bruce Wayne.

Probably not, but it might turn him into super obsessive vigilante Batman.

"Epilogue" was an pretty good Batman episode. Why it was put under the JL:U heading is beyond me. I liked the episode, don't get me wrong - I am a big Batman Beyond fan and it was nice to get an attempt at closure on the McGuinness world - but, as has been pointed out, Waller's idea of making an offspring of Bats was headscratch-worthy. Even so I was willing to accept the logic UNTIL the whole midichlorian-like pseudo explanation of how Terry's dad's gamete DNA was manipulated so that it was a mirror of Bruce Wayne's, on down to the laugh-worthy animation of the microworms (?) going in and working on the amino acids like busy little elves. That? was serious overkill. I third the fact that Waller's plan made no sense, and spending time trying to explain it when more time could have been spent exploring Terry's feelings on the matter or talking about the Beyond's version of JL was a downer.

Granted, I'm not currently reading any Batbooks, but it's my understanding that the comics version of Batman, in the wake of War Games, has pretty much pissed off everyone who was his ally in the past. His old, bitter portrayal in BB always rang true to the modern comics version to me.



He reminded me of Marvel's MODOK.