There was also a female Dr. Fate for about 30 issues, who will forever have my affection for getting pissed during a Senate hearing on superheroes and turning Congress into newts for 20 minutes.

I grew up on Silver Age comics, so I prefer those incarnations. I still tend to think of Huntress as the daughter of Bruce Wayne and Selena Kyle.

Speaking of obscure DC heroes, does anyone else remember a short series with Superman and Batman's sons, cleverly named Superman II and Batman II, traveling around in a van performing good deeds? I think it was DC's lame attempt to capture the older teenage audience.

There was a cartoon, and yes, there have been action figures: a Super Powers one from Kenner from 1986, a Hasbro "DC Comics Super Heroes" one from around 1997, and a few from DC Direct. All different contracts with different terms. All that matters for JLU figures is the current contract DC has with Mattel. That's why Hasbro and DC Direct have also made Blue Beetle figures, and why DC Direct was able to make a Question and their upcoming Captain Atom.

Speaking of JLU action figures, pictures of the newest upcoming figures have been posted online from the San Diego Comic Con's preview night:

http://afigures.com/g/?mode=album&album=20...FJustice_League

Some obvious choices and a few out-of-left-field ones, too!

JLU got an Emmy nomination for best Theme Song for an Animated Series.

Well, nothing as weird as the Waverider and Aztek figures they've already made.

Congrats to the JLU crew on their Emmy. I still like the western version of the main theme better, but I've definetly grown to like the theme.

WOW...a Vixen figure?
I would've never imagined!!!
Cool.

I believe it was for best theme title music, period. If I recall correctly, they are up against Desparate Housewives, among others.

Well, there went that hope.

There's a page out there that explains how DC lost its rights to the name "Captain Marvel" and how Marvel Comics aquired it and why DC had to call him Shazam for a period of time.

Hope this helps explain possibly some of the stuff we're discussing.

Finally saw "Divided we Fall" and loved it. I'm entirely sure how Flash did it but it's nice to see him be the one to beat the villain.

TimeMonkey - Please use spoiler tags for your post. Divided We Fall has not aired in the US yet. It will air this Saturday night.

You mean the faux-80s metal hairband theme song? Don't enourage them, Emmys!

I was with BStu thinking it was the Phantom Stranger in that episode where WW got turned into a pig.

That page was mostly right. Although it should be pointed out that DC never owned the original Captain Marvel until the late 1960's. The original Captain Marvel was created by C.C. Beck and published by Faucett Publications.

National Periodical Publications (DC) sued Faucett claiming that Captain Marvel was a Superman rip-off. The lawsuit stayed in the courts for years, and Faucett kept publishing Captain Marvel all that time. And ironically, Captain Marvel's books outsold Superman for a number of years.

The mid 1950's, sales of superhero comics took a steep dive, and Faucett declared bankruptcy before the lawsuit was settled, so DC forgot about it since Captain Marvel ceased publication.

Then in the late 60's, Stan Lee noted that the rights to the Captain Marvel name were open for grabs. Marvel bought the rights to the name, but that's all. They were not interested in the original Faucett Captain Marvel character. Marvel Comics just wanted the name to use on their own character.

It wasn't too long after that when DC bought the rights to the Faucett characters. But to their dismay, they couldn't get the rights to the name since Marvel Comics owned it.

So because of that, DC can use the character of Captain Marvel in their books, but they can't title a series 'Captain Marvel'. So that's why the 2 comic series starring Captain Marvel were titled 'Shazam' and 'The Power of Shazam'.

That's also why the TV series from 70's starring Captain Marvel was also titled 'Shazam'.

I'm curious about the Black Canary, m'self. I'm wondering if the show will ever get into the Dinah Drake Lance/ Dinah Laurel Lance thing. I think it'd be interesting to have an episode where a current member of the Justice League has a parent who was also in a similar outfit, esp. since it didn't seem to be alluded to at all in "Cat and the Canary."

Sorry, I thought it'd already aired.

No problem, TM. I've actually seen it myself and I'm also having a hard time keeping track what's being aired on CN. However, I agree...Divided We Fall rocks. And I love the resolution. Though, I do have to say that I'm a bigger fan of Epilogue. I don't think it will float everybody's boat because it all depends on personal tastes and what attracted you to JL/JLU in the first place, but I don't think many will deny that it was excellently executed.

Also, I just want to say that I've really been enjoying all of these golden and silver age comic book character history discussions. It's true, I'm a little lost but, by the sound of it, the Starman comics are definitely worth checking out.

You're telling me! I mean, what's up with Supergirl's, uh, "Combination Purse"?

They didn't buy the rights to the name. There was no character named "Captain Marvel" being published at the time, so they published their own, establishing their copyright on and trademarking that name.

DC licensed the Fawcett characters in 1972 and purchased them in 1980.

Interestingly, Captain Marvel also gave rise to another popular superhero character: Marvelman (as he's known in the UK; Miracleman in the US). He came about when British reprints of Captain Marvel adventures were cut off following the Fawcett/National lawsuit and the British publisher came up with Marvelman as a (thinly-veiled) replacement. So you have a scientist instead of a wizard giving a boy his powers, "Kimota!" instead of "Shazam!" as the magic word, Young Marvelman and Kid Marvelman instead of the various Fawcett Marvel characters, etc.

It was fun to hear the show mentioned on the "Pierre Bernard's Recliner of Rage" segment on the Conan O'Brien show. He was complaining that he had to buy two ten inch Batman figures because one comes with the Wonder Woman figure and that the four inch figures can't stand up very well!

Just to clarify: After the trademark to the Fawcett Captain Marvel (a.k.a The Big Red Cheese) lapsed, Marvel Comics Group created their own Captain Marvel (Captain Mar-Vell of the Kree). They (Marvel Comics) then successfully applied for a trademark on the name "Captain Marvel."

DC bought the copyright to Fawcett's Captain Marvel, allowing them to use the character however they like. However the fact they couldn't apply for a trademark causes some problems.

Since Marvel Comics has a trademark on the NAME Captain Marvel, this means that DC can't use the name Captain Marvel to publicize any of their works. Hence the use of "The Power of Shazam" for the last series featuring DC's Captain Marvel.

All told, I really liked the Big Red Cheese's appearance on JLU. They really pegged it right, imho.

But they can call him this, right? They can call him this in the comics and on the show, right? Other characters can call him this name in print and out loud, right? Or does that mean that he can't be called that in any form? I know the Kenner Super Powers Toys called him "Shazam!" on the package, but...

I didn't get to see the episode where The Big Red Cheese showed up voiced by Jerry O'Connel, because my VCR doesn't record what I don't tell it to, but did they call him Captain Marvel?

---

Finally saw this episode last night with Fairly Perceptive Boyfriend, as he taped it like a sweet boyfriend would. And it was fun being able to point out all the super heros to him in the background. Now, most of them I knew, such as Stargirl, and I'd already read their backstories this past few weeks at work in Wikipedia, because I'm bored like that.

But I have to say, roosterboy made it easier for the obscure ones, by posting screen caps, because FPB/F is a Marvel/X-men fan, and had no idea that I knew so much about DC.

Just got back from the WB Animation panel at the San Diego Comic Con. I didn't stay for The Batman, but I loved the Justice League Unlimited part. They showed tomorrow's episode, about which I'll just say: I loved it. They also showed the first scene of next season, which seems like something for which spoiler tags were invented:

It starts after Luthor has spent some time in prison. He's being transported in a prison van, out of which he tosses a prison guard. As Luthor's driving in a frantic getaway, he seems to be talking to someone who isn't there. He eventually wrecks the van and runs on foot. He gets to a dead end and the police corner him with guns drawn.

A hand reaches through the wall and pulls Luthor through, leaving the wall intact. The police are confused. Luthor is next seen on a speeder boiks of some sort on a swamp; the person driving drops him off, and a figure walks toward him. Apparently, he was freed by . . . a large, talking gorilla. Presumably, Gorilla Grodd. Grodd assures Luthor he'll be interested in:

A large building rises out of the swamp. It's shaped sort of like a Manta head, if you ask me. It opens up, and there are a lot of silhouettes in there. Silhouettes of villains.

It's the Legion of Doom!

Anyway, Bruce Timm says there will be a few standalone episodes, but the Legion will be prominent throughout the season. The villains saw the Justice League and decided they needed to work together too; so that means lots and lots of villains. Whee!

It was a great panel. I'm quite excited now.

Thanks so much for the news, Montykins! That sounds like exactly what I've been waiting for all along! I'm just surprised that it took so long for the villains to figure out that they needed to band together. Could you tell us if you recognized any of the silhouettes?



Fun, yes, but also strangely depressing that I knew exactly what Pierre Bernard was talking about.

Right.

Yes, DC can call him Captain Marvel in the comics, and in the cartoon, but they just can't title a comic or cartoon 'Captain Marvel'.

Wow. Seriously...wow.

Continuity going as far back as Superman's solo series. Luthor negotating with Brainiac, forming Brainilex (for lack of a better word). Brianilex using the Dark Heart probes to wreck havoc. The JL facing down the Justice Lords (while Flash has to battle a "Reverse Flash"). And in a nice nod to the dozens of Smallville fans left...Flash beats Lex Luthor down like a punk...and almost getting pulled into "a force...a speed force." Incredible stuff. If you missed it, you'll get a second chance tomorrow night. Kinda wish I had seen the episode at CCI.

How maybe more episodes left for the season?

Looked like Zoom to me. "You're not a hero, you're just a punk kid..." reeks of Zoom.

"Speak for yourself! I have a chair at the big conferance table, and I'm putting my symbol on it!"

Wonder Woman threw a plane into a skyscraper and it imploded. As did my world. Damn. With the whole pan-out over the city thing. How'd they get away with that?

Green Arrow is a sanctimonious shit. I wish to have his babies. Is that messed up?

I posted this before, but I wanted to say once again how pleased I was with the animation in the episode. Some of the animation this season has been rather spotty, but the animation in this episode was absolutely gorgeous.

I liked the story well enough, but the way they brought Flash back was a tad too quick and cheesy. J'onn and Batman were a bit underused, too. And yes, I say that only because I wanted to see more of their Justice Lords counterparts. Speaking of which, there were a number of striking similarities between this episode and Teen Titans' "The End."


I've also heard Luthoriac.


Just one left this season, then another thirteen next season.

That part cracked me up.

I hate to say this but I think Flash dying would have added more impact to the storyline of parallel universes with the Justice League and the Justice Lords. Plus I liked it when they started calling Flash by his real name when they were trying to pull him out.

This was quite an ending in of itself. I'm not spoiled so I wonder how they're going to end the season.

That was just so frakkin' awesome! I loved it. Except for Green Arrow's speech. That whole scene, even the stuff before GA, was... stilted.

But the episode rocked simply for Flash. Not even the whole "speed force" bit, awesome as that was. Just the way he handled himself throughout the episode. Michael Rosenbaum aces everything he does for the DCU.

"What he said"

Love, love CCH Pounder as Amanda Waller! I don't know what the character is like in the comics, but this version rocks!

Wow! Go Flash! Loved that he was not at all phased by the psych smackdown the "Justice Lords" versions of themselves were pulling.


I liked that too and I liked it that it was Shayera who found him first. (after J'onn confirmed that he was still alive, of course)

Loved the nod between Bats and Supes when everyone else was applauding.

Last week I commented that I missed the 'classic' look of Brainiac. Boy, got whole bunch of them there for a second or two, didn't I?

A couple of questions --

Why does the line "Are you going to fight me, boy?" sound so familiar?

Can someone explain what happened there at the end when Flash was "decomissioning" Brainiac from Luthor? I get that Flash went, for lack of a better term, beyond super sonic. So was he rapidly removing Brainiac's programming?

Who was that standing behind Lois Lane in the crowd scene?

And did anyone else have a family member wander through during the beginning when Luthorac was talking with itself and ask you "what are you watching? And then as you are trying to explain, even though they have a passing knowledge of the characters, they just keep looking at you like you are amusingly weird?

Isn't that basically what happend to Barry Allen in Crisis?

I presume the whole 'Who guards the guardians' is from Watchmen. Always a good theme. After last week's excuse for dragging out the D-list roster it's nice to see the writers admit the important events should be confined to the core group. I guess we'll see the new League setup in the last episode.

Regarding next season The Legion of Doom, really? Recreating the Superfriends could be good for laughs. At least it would be a different direction from this downer of a season. After Superman mentioned an embassy on Earth I said "Hall of Justice!". Please, no Marvin and Wendy though.

Man, I'd hate to be the nightwatchman or part of the overnight maintenance crew at a Lexcorp building.

I'm a little worried about this Legion of Doom stuff. I mean, if they're all hanging out in their swampy headquarters, couldn't Waller order an air strike once she found out where they were? Or maybe a few dozen leaguers could come down and just kick everyone in the head for a bit and, poof, no more Legion of Doom.

Maybe I'm just being dense.

I don't speak Latin...did Bats really say "Who guards the guardians?" Or was it "Who watches the watchmen?" and mistranslated.

I can just hear the annoucement: "He's gone exclusive with DC Comics, he's writing Brave & The Bold, and the latest episode of Justice League Unlimited incorporated the Speed Force. And that's why Mark Waid is having the Best Week Ever!"

elle...I don't know is Barry went into the Speed Force. Here's what I know: the Speed Force came about in the "Terminal Velocity" arc of The Flash. Basically, it's this dimension of speed which powers folks like the Flash no matter what their origins (lightning strike, hard water inhaliation, speed forumula, etc.) In that arc, Wally had gone faster than light, and felt the Force call him. He vanished in there, but became the first speedster to get out, getting new abilities in the bargin. At the end of the "Speed Kills" storyline, Wally went in again, but it was established that his anchor back to the present was his girlfriend, Linda Park. And that's all I can remember about that.

IIRC, he said something like "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", so it would be the former and not the latter.

How many times have the justice league seen Lex in various states of undress?


Hee. I'm tempted to write a Clex coda.

DaisyDuke:

HA!

I agree. But he is "an old lefty". So, it works for me. And after having read "Quiver", I also want to have his babies...well, only if Question isn't around. In any case, GA's speech and his exchange with Batman was a nice way to tie-off GA's JLU character arc.

Question about Watchmen: I know Rorschach is suppose to be a composite of The Question, but are all the rest of the characters also based on existing characters or are they Alan Moore originals?

Oh, I just looked up Watchmen on Wikipedia and I found this little tidbit interesting:




So, who also thougth Supes was going to reveal his identity to Lois during that last scene?

They're all jazz solos off the Charlton characters. Niteowl is Blue Beetle, and Dr. Manhatten is Captain Atom. As are the rest. Check it out here.

Yeah, I think GA translated it "guardians" instead of "watchmen", because then the meta would have been unstoppable.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes is a famous quote from the Latin writer Juvenal. It is often translates as "Who watches the watchmen" - hence the famous comic book series "The Watchmen".

I'm shocked that she still hasn't figured it out. Between her professional time with Clark and her personal time with Superman, you'd think that she would be able to figure things out. Perhaps she's just being coy. Of course, if they actually show this happening it deserves more than a few seconds, so it's probably for the best that he didn't do it.

There wasn't enough time for it, but it's a shame we didn't hear what the other Jusice Lord clones had to say.

Yeah, now I consider it, I'm also glad that Clark didn't do the reveal. I just hope, since they have now revisited and acknowledged the Supes/Lois 'ship, that they at least show us the reveal. And it doesn't look like it will be included in the upcoming Superman dtv movie WB is now working on. According to some posts I read about the DCAU Comic Con panel, The Batman team will be producing the Superman dtv movie and it will not be set in the Timm & Crew's continuity, it will be more of a tie-in to next summer's live action Superman Returns movie.

I have also considered the Lois being coy angle, but after a couple of re-watchs, she does seem completely clueless. Boy, ace journalist that one!



RiverThames - Thanks for the link! I started Watchmen a while ago, but then I got distracted by a bunch of other shiny graphic novels. I must get back to it.

For the first time I found myself wishing that they had used Barry for the series instead of Wally, because in that way they could have killed the Flash (a JLU version of what happened in Crisis) and then have Wally replace his uncle as the new kid just like in the comics. That would really been so major storytelling.

As it is I thought this episode was excellent even though now we know that Lois still doesn't know the Clark is Superman even though she's obviously "involved" with Superman. Which is kinda wrong on his part. I like the fact that in the comics he told her and it was a BIG DEAL.

Also I don't quite share Mr. McDuffie's love of Hawkgirl so news that Hawkman in the person of his Golden Age persona will making an appearance next season making the love triangle, a love square not that exciting. This GL/Hawkgirl stuff is getting tired.

But that's just nit-piking, I think JLU more so than any other show on American TV gets the most of its limited time. I'm happy it'll be back next season.

It's funny, I remember buying the Watchmen comics every other month and a friend of mine who was kind of a hostile loner with absent parent issues started falling in love with the Rorschach character. Shades of the Huntress/Question romance? Anyway, superduper finale. I like the expanded format if it gives the creators flexibility with the grabbag of superheroes. Since I usually made mine Marvel I'm not as familiar with the DC universe, but I would like to see the Metal Men all shiny and new, even as a comic relief team. And I'd like to see Batman's Outsiders experiment relived.

I'll miss it if they get rid of the expanded roster. I'm not a big fan of the saintly Big Seven (despite their flaws), and greatly preferred episodes that focused on the second- and third-stringers. Needless to say, my favorite era in the comics was the late '80s Justice League International (which is where the Earth-based embassy concept originated).

I loved the ep. I loved that it was Flash who saved the day. It was just a good show. So have they 86'ed the Batman/WW love?

I could be wrong but I don't think they have. There was that whole 'I've got your phone number...winkwink' moment between WW and Batman. I think the writers just threw that in there as an acknowledgement that they haven't forgotten about Batman/WW 'ship.

Loved the ep. The power blipped right as GA said "Says who?", so I missed his speach, which it sounds like may have been a good thing. I would have liked to see what Wonder Woman's double said, but I think it's kind of appropriate that Bats just quietly destroyed himself. Heh.

Echoing the Flash love, too. It's good that he finally got some screen time after being gone for so long - and he got to be the hero among heroes for the day! I had missed the irony of him being the one to defeat Lexiac. Nice. Michael Rosenbaum is so perfect as Flash, I keep forgetting that he's Lex Luthor on Smallvile.

I hope the 'ship dies a quiet death. The way I see it, Batman is a guy who is"just not that into you" with Wonder Woman. She's doing all the chasing.

What do you guys think?

The Flash can vibrate molecules of matter at super-high-rate. What Flash did was separate Brainiac's molecular structure from Luthor's. So without a body, Brainiac just dissipated and all that was left was Luthor. (But you can bet Brainiac be back)

I still believe that what Bruce really wants can best be described by the cover to "The Hiketeia." Though I could just really like referring to it at the slightest inclination.