I don't think they did expect him to go along. When Batman made the crack about Superman "standing on the sidelines waiting for someone else to clear your name," I think he meant that "someone else" was, in fact, Batman. That is, Batman believed the plan was "most of us will turn ourselves in so we look good, and Batman will go do the legwork and fix everything."

I can see that. Doesn't make Superman look any better, but it makes sense.

Actually he hasn't always been that way. The original Batman was a dark character indeed, (he carried a gun!) but when Robin's character was introduced in the early 40's, DC changed Batman's direction. They made him into a lighter and more personable character. Him and Superman were best buddies and rarely ever argued, and he got along great with most other heroes. Batman stayed that way all through the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's.

It was in the mid 80's when Frank Miller and Denny O'Neil took Batman back to his old, dark roots. But they added some modern twists by making Bruce/Batman more paranoid, obsessive, and even slightly psychotic. If today's Batman met the Batman from the 70's, they wouldn't even recognize each other.



Actually I thought breaking into Cadmus and rescuing the Question was one of Superman's best moments in the series. If they had tried to get the Question out the "legal" way, Cadmus could have held the Question for months, maybe years. And they could kept torturing and probing him for information all that time. Hell, they might have even made a clone of the Question and send him to the League to spy on them.

Superman did the right thing in my opinion. In fact that's one of the few times that Superman has acted like a 'Super Man'.

I understand why he did it, and I think he was ultimately "right", but only because Cadmus was torturing him, something a government operation shouldn't be doing. What he should then have done is turned around and given the President and the free press the evidence of what Cadmus was doing. Simply breaking Q out and then sitting on it was a bad call. Granted, he didn't have a whole lot of time between rescuing Q and the firing of the cannon, but it didn't seem like he was going to be doing much different even if the cannon hadn't fired.

As for my "always" comment, I'm not talking about the historical Batman, I'm talking about continuity Batman. The Batman as he's been presented in the Timmverse, from day one. Sure, he got a bit darker going from BTAS to TNBA, but he was never the friendly, neighborhood Batman of the Silver Age. As long as Timmverse Superman has known Timmverse Batman, that's the way he's been.

If they went and did it without him, and he was all "WTF?" that would be funny. But if they should ask his input if they want him to go along with it.

He's one of the only big guys who takes his secret identity even halfway seriously. And he doesn't have the irremovable mask of the Question and he does have a LOT to lose as Bruce Wayne, a whole lot more than a guy like Wally.

I've been looking around here, and at other sites, and I wonder.

Am I the only one who didn't think the "bye, daddy" hug was sweet or touching? It might have been if it hadn't been followed by Galatea being the bitchiest bitch that ever bitched. She's not good, she's not wholesome, she's not a hero. She's dangerous, and if Hamilton ever got in her way, she'd do worse to him than she did to Steel, "daddy" or not. Hell, she might do it to him just because if she ever considers that he's to blame for her being "just a copy".

She didn't go after the League because she thought it was the right thing to do because they were out of control. Kara wasn't far off in her reasoning when she said it was all about beating her and proving she's better than the original, and in my mind that makes her attack on the Watchtower much worse than Superman's assault on Cadmus, government sanctioned or not.

Gah. I hate her. I don't like her, she bugs, and frankly, even though I don't think Supergirl should kill, I hope she's permanently brain damaged or something from that frying she took.

Did anyone else catch the continuity issue of Vic having his mask back on while still in bed in the infirmary? Just one of those things....

Maybe he and Huntress were getting frisky and it was a fetish thing....

God, did I really just go there? I'm going to go wash my brain now.

Don't forget El Dorado and Rima. El Dorado was the dumbest thing ever. I thought I had made him up, until I found a site that confirmed he existed.

Zan's new name on the show was Downpour.

And I figured another reason they redid the name of these characters is because they're so ... stereotypical and racist. I mean, Black Vulcan? He's the only black character in the cast, and he has to be called Black, as if we wouldn't get it? He was a cheap knock off of Black Lightning and was created to avoid having to pay Black Lightning creator Tony Isabella royalties. And Samurai? That's like calling someone "Knight" or "Warrior" in English. How stupid.

I still think "Juice" is kinda racist, or at least off color, but oh, well.

As a really, really good fan site points out:

Maybe when all the warning bells were going off in the Watchtower, he put his "insta-mask" back on.

Well as I pointed out earlier in the thread, characters like Black Panther, Black Lightning and Black Goliath were created in the 1970's. The 'Black Power' and 'Black Pride' movements were at their apex in that time period. It was considered cool for a black hero to use the word black in their name.

Maybe the names seem antiquated in 2005, but you have to look at the historical context from where they came from.

Oh dear God, Schroeder, that site is too damn funny. I may have to get the Super-Friends DVDs just to play the drinking game.

I rewatched it tonight and I must say it worked for me a lot better this time around going over the motivations of the characters and thinking through the logical conclusions of certain things.

But there is ONE thing I hated about this ep.

If I was Cadmus I would simply blow up half the watchtower with my missles instead of revealing my super powered trump cards to "sneak" (or not) into the crippled fortress to blow up the reactor from the inside.

Anyone who survives will go into hiding or come after me and those stupid enough to come after me will face my final hand.

God seeing those missles bore their way through into the Watchtower grated on my nerves.

What I really liked on rewatching this show:

Galatea's goodbye daddy remark. It sent chills up my spine over how creepy it was remembering that she isn't well adjusted about being a clone and I can't see Hamilton acting as the father figure she wants from him after how he felt betrayed by Superman.

How laughably weak the ultimen were. Just seeing that red tornado take on three of the Samurai clones was awesome. What made it all the better was that it actually gave me hope some of those poor techies might've actually survived their brawl with the clone who transformed into a T-Rex.

Batman brings up an important salient point that kids should learn but in the conetxt of this show anyone who thinks it through should realize that someone would've saved the core 7 even if Batman allowed himself to be arrested and that would've been the rest of the league.

In the inside I cheered with the league when they "won" and laughed out loud when they lost power again. They needed this episode jsut to shine without the interference of Superman singlehandedly saving the day or the rest of the leaders passing around orders. What made it all the more enjoyable was picking out who were most likely the writers/artists favorites. They are simply in love with that cowboy and the red tornado guy.

The only groan inducing part aside from the missles, is the green lantern saying he's seen spaced based weapons always destablizing global politics. On top of his previous statment that the league is not there to be liked made him look like an asshole with very little thinking power in my eyes. Diana has been quite a brat in the original series but she seems to be the only one of the 7 who has any sense of what PR really means and has created for herself a tastefully built up image unlike commercial zero Flash, the Boyscout and the loners (everyone else.)

It actually would be fun if the writers did put her in the same capacity as Lorne (from a show called Angel) on an irregualr basis. She could have the martian as her secretary/personal assitant on the more special episodes.

Well, you know, it would have been extremely boring to have that happen and have seven dozen superheroes floating in space for about 15 minutes. Obviously the point of this episode is to highlight the strength of the rest of the superheroes without the core seven. And it's just a great way for fans to see a royal effing rumble with their favorite b-list superheroes kicking the crap out of the superfriends.

Agreed about Diana, and about Wally as far as self-promotion goes. Though in the latter's case, he's emerged as one of the more conscientious members, even so far as advising that they understate their presence so that they don't intimidate the civilians. He may love the glitz and attention, but he tends to realize what's most important.

I was wrong this makes up for it. rarah rah.

Ah yes Corvidae Corvus come to me. Would you recommend mustard, Mr. McDuffie?

The black thing was almost never cool even when black folks in real life were doing it. I bet even today the biggest fistmakers of then look back at themselves now and cringe. And that's not covering how lame often white comic writers were misinterpreting it. There's like ream of articles on that even Mr. McDuffie has written some.

That said as for the ep.

Rocked. Yeah the missiles having superheroes in their payload seemed weak but it meant they wanted to take the watchtower. Plus it seemed more plausible then like 100 plus guys with the abilities to detect and deflect said missiles if they were unconventional. Tea lives, mores the pity, as her eletrified butch cut and belly burn tatt can't spell good things by anyone voiced by AM. I am upon some reflection on this ep, surprised what with Milano voicing her Mr McDuffie isn't at all familiar with the name of the role she's played for seven years or the content of the show she's been like a producer for for three. Then I realize he's busy actually working on TV not watching it. Helps put things in perspective for me.

I think I'll get out of the house but not before I shave my crumb crusted beard, shower, and read the sports section to get to the gym and lose my big nerdself. After I finish cleaning off the feathers from my face.

The A Very Personal Injury episode of Harvey Bridman savaged the hamfisted tokenism of the Spuer Friends

"If I'm Black Vulcan why don't we call Aquaman Whitefish then?!"

Nicholle Tom does the voice for Kara/Galatea. I remember this because it amused me that Tea's bob haircut reminded me of the style Nicholle wore when she was in "The Nanny". (yes, I watched -- I love Charles Shaughnessy )

I know the historical context from which they came, but I also know that it was mostly white writers who scripted these shows, so it's like having men write from a women's point of view, as in the most recent episodes of Rescue Me.

And as I remember distinctly about when the characters came out and from some of the sites that look back upon such things, these characters were reviled back in the day, when they were considered stereotypical the first time out. They were one-deminsional, even more so than the rest of the Justice League, what with all the non-character development that didn't exist, but these guys were even worse.

I mean, how many times did Apache Cheif talk about how there was an ancient Indian legend of so and so that says ...

But the inclusion in this run of those characters, and the update of them to make them not so offensive, is a huge neat accomplishment.

Thought it was a great ep. Nice mix of action and story. A few questions though:

1. I know the Ulti-men are updates of the Superfriends, but who is the guy in the red/white/blue suit supposed to be an update of?

2. Where was Vixen? I'm surprised she didn't get a chance to show off her powers.

3. Who is the guy dressed kind of like a panther, but has huge goggles?

And when Steel was giving Supergirl the speech about why the original 7 were so important, I was expecting him to say "B/c the general non-comic reading public knows who the hell they are, where as the rest of us are just C-listers."

I believe she was with the rescue team that went down to the blast site with Flash to help out with the injured civilians and such.




I think you're referring to B'wana Beast.

I've never heard of him. What's his story?

Thanks for the explanations about the Samurai-looking and Apache-Chief looking characters. I had wondered about them.

It was pretty cool seeing all the "substitute" characters. Especially Black Canary. And Atom. Though when Supergirl ran over and picked up Atom and then just put him back on the floor, I was thinking, at least she could have put him somewhere where he won't get stepped on.

B'wana Beast on Wikipedia. Pretty brief though. ETA: While that link is OK, be careful of looking up other JLU stuff on Wikipedia, as some articles have spoilers all the way thru to Epilogue.

Well, that maybe true of Steel but I don't think Supergirl is a C-Lister and I think most non-comic readers still know who she is (Superman's cousin, etc.) more than Hawkgirl (who in the comics is a C-Lister) even with the JL cartoon.

Actually, I think the panther man with goggles refers to Wildcat. He's non-superpowered, but an extremely effective and powerful fighter in his own right. He was featured in the first episode of JLU season 2 and was voiced by "Law & Order's" Dennis Farrina.

One thing I really liked about the updated Ultimen was that they still found names that were culturally significant but without being blandly offensive. Samuri and Apache Chief were meaningless names meant only to ape cultural sterotypes. Wind Dragon and Longshadow are nods to their respective cultures that actually had a meaning with relation to their powers and which weren't exploitatively obvious. Ditto on Juice, actually.

I had no idea she existed preseries.

I'm not a huge comic book guy, so this opinion is strictly regarding this show. What comes off as shortsightedness and self-absorption is a direct result of his self confidence. When Lois told him that she was worried about him, he flat out said that he could take care of himself.

I took that to be the defining moment of what's going on with Superman here: 1) He knows that he can pretty much do anything, so he prioritizes who or what gets saved first, and goes about his business assuming that he'll get everything done like he always does. Sometimes it seems like he's not exactly being compassionate, but to him, he's doing the right, and logical thing. We call Batman logical, but Superman is equally logical. They just prioritize things differently. 2) Having said that, Lois pointed out that there are things he can't control, such as public opinion. It's always interesting to see him battle something where he might actually lose, and public opinion is a very interesting foe.

I guess then you had not heard of the wonderfully bad movie made in the 80s with such stars as Faye Dunaway, Mia Farrow, Brenda Vaccaro, and Peter O'Toole? Helen Slater played Supergirl.

The thing with Batman playing the 'part-timer' card is a bit ridiculous considering that he didn't say "sorry I can't vote of whether to kick Hawkgirl out or not, I'm only a part-time member."


Not to split hairs but Black Panther was created in 1966, the character actually predates the Black Panther party.

I also remember that when Jack Kirby created The Forever People as part of his "Fourth World" books in the early seventies, he a had a character called "Vykin the Black". In that case though, I think he didn't want people referring to Vykin as a 'Negro', which was still in use a lot back then.

You may be on to something there. I mean, Huntress did, presumably, take Q home with her after kissing him through the mask in "Double Date". And she never saw his face until last week's ep (which I still find mystifying...but hey, it made for a good moment). Yup, I think she's got a thing for creepy faceless-ness.


And I agree, Tea's "Daddy" line was squicky. She's a highly sexalized character...so despite the appearance to the contrary, her feigned "Daddy" line came off as kind of vampish.

Nope. But now I want to see it.

Supergirl had her first appearance in Action Comics. #252 May 1959.

Over the years, her origin and powers have changed several times. The most recent version has gone back to her old origin. She's Superman's cousin.

But she also wears the Star-Spangled Kid's cosmic converter belt, so we get two, two golden-age heroes in one. The Star-Spangled Kid was one of the few instances where a teen superhero had an adult sidekick ("Stripesy") -- the Stargirl/Pat Dugan (a.ka. S.T.R.I.P.E.) relationship mimics that one. (And Dugan has some relation to the original Stripesy -- in fact, he may even be him, I don't recall).

As a kid who read a ton of comic books in the '70s and '80s, this was a total geekfest for me. I actually saved my recording, with the aim of going through scene by scene and seeing if I can identify all the folks who appeared.

And Powergirl's (a.k.a. Galatea) bazoombas have always been a major part of her character. I did think it was amazing that Supergirl's t-shirt stuck to her breasts even when it was completely tattered and Galatea was picking her up by it.

Well, TimeMonkey, just make sure you have plenty of wine on hand to go with all that "cheese and ham". ;0)


I'd be interested in seeing a list of cameos, LTG.

Yes indeed, Pat Dugan was Stripesy. In a 70's issue of JLA, it turned out that Stripesy and the other Seven Soldiers of Victory had been scattered across different dimensions before being rescued by the JLA. In Geoff John's short-lived "Star-Spangled Kid" series, that was changed to them being scattered among different points in time, which accounts for Pat being born probably before 1920 and yet still being middle-aged. Pat is Courtney's (Stargirl's) stepfather. Courtney resented Pat's "intrusion" into her family. She stole one of the original Kid's super-power belts from Pat and created a superheroic identity for herself, mainly to annoy him. Pat, a genius mechanic, built the S.T.R.I.P.E. suit in order to keep an eye on her. When the most recent Starman retired, he gave her his Cosmic Rod (stop snickering) and she changed her superhero name from Star Spangled Kid to Stargirl.

So, I take it that these Starmen/women folk have nothing to do with the Jeff Bridges film of the same name?

No, they have no connection. In fact I seem to recall that Columbia Pictures had to get permission from DC Comics to use the name Starman.

It was an impressive list of characters, although they did make a mistake in showing Booster Gold up there when he should have been down on Earth with the rest of the relief squad.

I'm surprised that no one mentioned Steel's miraculous recovery from his beating. That last hit should have killed him, since at that point half of his face armor was missing.

For those of you wondering about it, they didn't bring Dorn back in the first time (The Return) because it would have been too expensive, so they had LaMarr (GL) do the voice. This may also be the case for this episode, although it's possible that they decided to stay with the same VA and maintain continuity within the JLU series. The producers don't seem to mind swapping actors from series to series if the need arises, but as far as I know they never switch during a series unless the actor becomes unavailable (George Eads, for example).

That's what I really love about Kevin Conroy. He's embraced being Batman, and it would be hard to imagine anyone else doing the voice. At first, I missed Tim Daly as Superman, but I admit that the new voice has grown on me.

I wonder where Mercy Graves has been all this time? They've acknowledged JLU is continuity from S:TAS, so where is she?

We saw Mercy in Clash (I believe that's the name of the Captain Marvel ep.), but I don't think she had any lines.

I agree, I also like George Newbern as Supes. I think it took him a bit to find his character - 1st season Supes is quite stilted but at this point he's definitely found his stride and he's made Supes his own. And hell, I think I like Newbern's Supes more than Tim Daly's.

Aww... man. Here I was all set to finally be able to contribute to the conversation (aside from Super Friends lore) based upon my massive amount of free time at work that allowed me to read up on every DC character I could find, and Jolly Roger beats me to it.

But nicely played, Jolly.

It's kinda sucky, however, that although Star-Spangled Kid was one of the few child super heros with an adult sidekick, the whole reason she was given one was so that her "uncle" (or stepfather?) could "watch out for her". I mean, she's a super hero for cris' sake, and she needs someone to watch over her?

--


I read on Wikipedia that the original artist had planned on making her boobies bigger every issue as a joke until someone noticed her.

Does it bother anyone that Power Girl is evil in this continuity?

This is the reason why the Ultimen was NEVER considered a threat, IMO. They were better(better fighters, I guess) in the Ultimates episode. Here, they sucked!

That was a funny scene!

Not the same Diana that was beating the hell outta some crooks in Hawk and Dove? Or the same Diana, that was gonna killed Toyman, in that Superman death episode? Or the same Diana who done and said many things in public to show she a hothead?

The golden-age Star Spangled Kid was definitely the leader of the duo. He was some rich genius (aren't they always), and his sidekick was his older, working-class chum. It's the modern incarnation that added the idea that the sidekick was looking out for the hero.

I'm thinking that surely some other geek has done a breakdown of all the characters appearing on this ep, but if I don't see one, I may just do it.

Oh, dude. Do it! How cool is it, that our own Law Talkin' Guy is a comic geek, too!

As a law student, it gives me hope! Plus it's cool having a mod interested in a cartoon series you love, for it makes you feel less stupid.

I just read about Starman last week, as the DC site had a free download of one of the issues. It's the one where Starman is killed and the father is killed and the other son survives and explosion. I was really getting into it, but I couldn't tell which issue it was.



Yeah, that one.

I thought she was a bitch the first few seasons. Hawgirl was so much better.

They're both warriors, per se. But I think it has to do with Diana being a stranger in Man's World that she's so standoffish to me, and a bitch. Somewhat xenaphobic, or just a massive clash of cultures.

Aquaman, in the original Superman animated series, and the comic books, too, for that matter, is the same way. He's a stranger in Man's World, too, and is always written that way.

But this new Diana, she seems to understand the value of PR, in that the team isn't faring that well right now in the world.

Before, she was a hothead. Hit first and ask questions never. I'm not saying that there aren't other heros like that and that if only I'd point that out, it'd diminish my opinion that Wonder Woman was a bitch earlier; I'm just saying I've noticed a remarkable change.

Weren't the Golden Age Star Spangled Kid and Stripsey created by Siegal and Schuster? I know they were part of the patriotic hero wave inspired by Captian America.

The only time I ever saw them was the godawful All-Star Squadron. That and Legion of Superheroes made me leary of JLU.

I also see the Ultimen as a nice meta-jab at the Old Superfriends.

I don't know for certain who came up with the original idea, but the stories were written by Jerry Siegel and illustrated by Hal Sherman.

You can find more information on the Golden Age Star Spangled Kid here and also at Don Markstein's Toonopedia.



I don't care if Fire or Red Tornado or the new Star Spangled Kid prove themselves while the leaders are away. They haven't had any character development on this show and there hasn't really been an ongoing storyline about the need for the newbies to prove that they can succeed without relying on the leaders.

But most of the group isn't any better. Admittedly MM is the best of them but he's too one note and in diplomacy sometimes you have to know how to be aggressive and forceful at the right time which is why I feel Diana is well rounded enough to do the job adequately better than the entire group.



That's certainly understandable but people can identify with characters and personalities for little things without a whole lot of exposition. It's why somewhere in the world their are actual fans of the LA Clippers, Howard the Duck and John Ashcroft. Hopefully though more of the lower tier characters get more fleshing out.

What about the Flash? He's the one who's demonstrated the most restraint while still staying constructive. That is, whenever he's been in an episode, which has been hardly these past two seasons.