I agree. I finally got to see "The Late Mr. Kent" and maybe it's because I had such high expectations of it (it seems to be a fan favorite) but I found the episode lacking believable emotional resonance. Supes seems entirely too bland to pull off . Even his outburst over the possibility of having to give up his Clark Kent persona didn't, IMO, hold much weight. I have a hard time even seeing the two separate cartoon series Supes as the same incarnation. Yes, there were a small handful of S:TAS eps that fleshed out Supes a bit (Apokolips and Legacy both come to mind), but he's nowhere as interesting as he's been over the past two seasons. I love the tragic hero path that McDuffie, Timm and crew put him on this season - a good ole fate vs. free will story is the basis of drama for good reason...it makes for compelling, sympathetic characters.

Who were all the people in the room that Amanda Waller opened up at the end of the most recent episode? I couldn't tell. There seemed to be millions of them.

They were multiple copies of the Ultimen .

Those were the Ultimen, homages to Super Friends like the Wonder Twins, Apache Chief, Black Vulcan...who am I missing? The Ultimen were genetically engineered by Cadmus. The Apache Chief guy broke ranks and is now with the Justice League. I don't think there were any clones of him in that room.

Wind Dragon was a homage of Samurai from Superfriends.

Apache Chief (Longshadow in JLU)was in that room. There were clones to begin with so whether one Longshadow broke ranks or not wouldn't much matter. Also, we don't know if Longshadow is still around. The Ultimen episode suggested that they didn't have long to live.

I've really been happy with the characterizations on JLU the last two seasons. I think they do a great job setting up the characters, especially the non Big 7 characters. Superman's frustration has played out slowly but believably. Even the bad guys at Cadmus aren't all portrayed as pure evil. Hamilton's character in particular has been exceptionally well portrayed. My biggest disappoint is with Batman. I don't think we're seeing enough background for him. I think we needed to see more of him in Gothum, but I guess we should be glad they still have access to Bruce at all what with the other cartoons using the Batman family. Still, its a shame that they can't do something with Dick Grayson or Barbara Gordon or even Tim Drake. I know there is a lot of continuity to keep track of there, but those characters really interest me. Especially Nightwing. I'd love to see more of him growing into his own as a Superhero. The fanboy in me would actually really love to see the Timm-verse Titans, but I realize that won't happen. Still, might be a nice way to do a non-crossover crossover. I'd love to see the JLU team's take on those characters. The maybe TT could do an episode featuring their version of the Justice League or at least some of its members. I know they want to steer clear of Batman, but maybe they could do Aquaman and Green Arrow to compliment adjust Titans Aqualad and Speedy. Both of those heros can be interpreted very differently from the way Justice League has. Maybe toss in GL Hal Jordan and a female hero to round things out. As much as I'd like to see McDuffie and friends interpret a young adult Titans, I'd also love to see how the Titans crew would do a story with the young heros interacting with adult heros. I think there are some interesting ideas to explore in both. But, alas, I know its not to be. Heck, I'm still hoping they find a way to do some Hal Jordan stories or even flash back to establish a Barry Allen in the Timm-verse, so its not like I get too attached to these wild fantasies.

So question: If Cadmus created Ultimen to stop the Justice League, how do they plan on controllign the Ultimen? I was a little disappointed in this ep. A lot of buildup, but no real resolution. I know it's a set up for something down the road, but it felt like it could have been cut down to 10 minutes.

Man, this episode was awesome. Dwayne, thanks for some really great TV.

1) I can't believe that my favorite incarnation of the Justice League is (i) a cartoon with (ii) an art style I could live without. The writing is just great.

2) I've realized that I really like watching Superman fight. Starting with Dark Heart, any episode where Superman really lets go is a keeper.

3) I imagine that the Cadmus guys weren't that upset to see Superman take Captain Atom away - I can't imagine anyone feels comfortable when they see an atomic hero's skin start cracking.

4) Dwayne, kudos on the fusion strike.

I was absolutely amazed. I guess it's been long enough for 9/11 imagery, because you did it, and it worked. For a second, I thought you were going to go the whole 9 yards - dead bodies, the rain of ash, and the whole thing, but I can see how that would blow your Y-7. Still, it was terrific.

5) Nice voice work. Somehow, Christian Kane is so distinctive that all I can hear is Christan Kane, but he's right for Green Arrow, and is doing great stuff with the character.

6) Lastly, kudos for "Do I look like Batman." "You know, you kind of do. Especially when you scowl like that." I wouldn't have bought Flash as the soul of the League before I saw you do it, but it works.

ETA: That wasn't Kane? That's uncanny how much those two sound alike.

Christian Kane isn't the VA for Green Arrow, Kin Shriner is. In my opinion, virtually all of the VAs for the show do a superb job, although Conroy is still the best.



The original Ultimen seemed designed to fight in public and gain some public support, while these guys appear to be nothing more than glorified stormtroopers. Cadmus has probably messed with their minds to make them more obedient. They'll probably do whatever Galatea tells them to do.

Plus, the Ultimen have a limited shelf life. Even if they did go rogue, they'd go stale and keel over eventually anyway.

Phoebe Halliwell I can't hope to do the degradation of her character justice. TWOP has a series of recaps that could be insightful but the short(er) version Mr McDuffie is that she used to be proud eager new age wicca femme girl still finding her way. She was generous, freespirited, and libertine but clever.

Then along came her major character arc with a character named Cole. She was tempted, chose, and did many things but in the end saw the light. This was dragged for about three seasons and it made the character lose all possible relevance, dignity, or respect. The character even is written as having moved forward, some, and advanced in some ways her earlier season self would be proud (before she had no degree or permenant employ how she's a well respected journalist/columnist and going for an advanced degree). All of which don't matter as the spector of she sold out earth for some booty clings like stink to the character. And even THIS season that had ANOTHER arc about Phoebe needs to find herself and believe in love. Admittedly Charmed is not written for its intelligence and couldn't hope to work (in the US at least) animated since its main appeal is watching pretty women in sexy outfits in the middle of special effects going off. Still it used to be good that was part of how it got torpid.

I'm saying that this will happen to Superman. I am certain at the end of the season superman won't throw the world into total chaos because certain things I know about writing and television shows. I bet he'll even apologize alot. But as has been said his jackass factor will be so high as to never go back down.

If ALL the league was feeling this, or it wasn't drawing from the DKR well (AGAIN) of Superfascist versus the champion of the common man or Green Arrow leftist (which I will always roll my eyes at). Or alot of things I wouldn't be so worried. As is I was wrong. No one will think Superman world conqueror or terrorist. But will think total jackass no matter what comes next. That or Mary Sue as he dodges yet another attempt at world takeover.

I DO like however that you put in the Shadow Cabinet reference (uhm not the comic series so much as a dig at the conspiracy bits) and the fact Superman only points out that Cadmus is an abuse of authority (If it was rated higher I'd suspect we'd see more Kara was raped vibes, though that would weigh the argument too much to his favor regardless of reason.)

Well for one thing, the clones have a limited lifespan, and Cadmus probably learned from their earlier mistakes and put more safeguards in place to neutralize the clones if they act up.

The voice-over work is generally excellent. The performance are top notch all around. I'm sure the reason one might have assumed Christian Kane (though I can't hear it) is that the Voice Actors have been a virtual employment agency for ex-Whedon actors. Amy Acker, Nathan Fillion, Gina Torres, Adam Baldwin, Morena Baccarin, Juliet Landau, and Armin Shimerman are all vets of Joss Whedon shows.

Looking over the cast lists, and its amazing the quality of the talent involved with Justice League. So many great actors like Dennis Farina, Jason Bateman, Jeremy Piven, John C. McGinley, Jerry O'Connell, Ioan Gruffudd, Tim Matheson. They you have a guy like Kin Shriner who works in the soap world, so he's just a very different kind of name, but he does excellent work in one of the strongest new characters. Also some other recognizable TV character actors put in very strong performances, like Jeffrey Combs and especially CCH Pounder. Her portrayal of Amanda Waller has just been phenomenal.

And I love this, that they're updating Superfriends characters. One favor I would ask would be to reconceptualize Wendy, Marvin and Wonderdog. And then kill them off for good. Also Gleek. Gleek must die. I need closure. And how about making some kind of sense out of that ridiculous Mxyzptlk character?

In the JLU universe, is Supergirl Superman's cousin? Or is she that alien thing that I remember from some comicbook incarnation?

She's from Argo...no relation to Supes, I think.

I thought Mxy has appeared in JLU already? I know he was on S:TAS for sure.

Question about Divided We Fall: At which episode did Luthor become Brainiac? Was it after Amazo tried to kill him?

No way, man. Wendy was totally hot in those tight, white jeans. She rocked my 8-year old world.

(Sure, Wonder Woman was hotter- but I figured I stood a better chance with Wendy).

TOPIC: I'm glad Green Arrow is still an "old lefty". Back in the early 70s, he and Green Lantern had their own comic book together. They'd have heated political discussions when not fighting evil (Arrow was the liberal. Lantern was the conservative). I didn't always understand it- but then again I didn't always understand the Watergate hearings they'd televise on daytime TV. I just knew it was important not to blindly trust anything. Even the people "in charge".

Hmm. Kinda like what the JLU is going through right now.

In the JLU universe, is Supergirl Superman's cousin? Or is she that alien thing that I remember from some comicbook incarnation?

I was pretty sure she's his cousin, but I don't have the second run of Superman on DVD yet to recall it.

As I recall, she's his cousin, but everything else, even if she's not, is the same -- name, Kara Zor-El and that she's from Eros.

And LTG, you'll be happy to know, last year and starting these past few months, they've relaunched Supergirl, and they brought back the old history -- she's his cousin. No more stupid Angel of Mercy, or whatever she was.

Hee.

I believe it's Argo City, though, not Eros. Or maybe just Argos in the cartoon.

Actually, the Kara of S:TAS and JLU is named Kara Im-Zee and she's a refugee from Argo City (or an Argo analogue...it's been too long since I saw the episodes. *sigh*)... I remember being quite annoyed that they didn't just go with the Kara Zor-El name, but it might've been some silly licensing thing at the time.

...Though for all intents and purposes you might as well just say she's the true blue cousin of Superman. 'Cause really? That's how she's written. A little spunkier and more Britney Spears these days... but then, pre-Crisis Kara had her own turn wearing hot-pants.

I thought the only "cousin" thing between Clark and Kara was that the Kents have her the cover of their neice/Clark's cousin. As in no actual blood between them since they were from two different planets. If that's true then it also means that they could technically mate (... ew, sorry for the imagery).

In the S:TAS/JLU continuty, Argo was a planet in the same system as Krypton. When Krypton went boom, Argo was knocked out of orbit, and the planet froze. Kara's mother tried to save the family by cyrogentically freezing them...but the pods malfunctioned. So when Superman did some exploring, Kara was the only one that could be saved.

You know, I never could quite reconcile the fact that the comics/show always represents Krypton as being part of a larger interstellar community (people recognize Supes as Kryptonion, and such...), obvious having the technology to travel through the stars... and yet for some reason when Krypton was destroyed, everyone was home. Was it Thanksgiving or something?

I don't know enough about the comics, but in the show I'm not sure if the Kryptonians ever made it out of their own solar system. After all, everyone seems to have a mad-on for earth and would recognize them, but I don't think any non-Justice League humans have ever been out beyond the solar system.

I liked that Kara is not Clark's biological cousin. I don't think they need to be related for her to be significant and important. She's literally the only other person of his race left alive. Do you really need a far-fetched family relation to further interest people? What's more, I think making Superman very much alone in relation to family is a strong counterpoint to his domestic nature. It makes the family he has found for himself that much more important. Clark doesn't love Jonathan and Martha any less for not being biological relations. Kara is no different. Giving him a biological family interferes with one of my favorite aspects of his characters, so I'm glad the producers didn't go that route. Clark doesn't need genetics to find a family, and that's precisely what Kara is to him.

Got it. I've never seen CHARMED, I'm sorry to say, but given your comments here, I suspect you *will* think Superman is a jackass after the end of the season. The Charmed storyline you told me about sounds interesting to me. I like for my heroes to be tempted, and I tend to forgive them for their mistakes, just like I do my real life friends. Some people see Superman as absolutely incorruptable and incapable of human foibles. That's a reasonable way to go with him, there have been lots of teriffic stories over the years that treat him that way, but we're more interested in showing him struggle to overcome his weaknesses, as opposed to not having any other than Kryptonite.

Anyway, thanks for watching and for taking the time to comment.

Is Krypto the Superdog part of the cartoon continuity? I flipped past it and they were talking about Lexcorp and Luthor.

Last I remember Supergirl was an alien robot with morphing powers that had attacked Superman, was talked into thinking for itself and installed with Ma and Pa Kent as a blond teenager being passed off as Clark's cousin. Then they started a new Supergirl series and she was merged with Linda Lee. I guess DC was looking for a harder edge because Linda was into Satanic rituals and sex magick. Dunno what happened after that, but I think it got cancelled.

In the comics, Kryptonians couldn't leave Krypton because they were genetically engineered to not be able to survive anywhere else. Kal-El only made it out because his father removed that from his son's zygote before it was rocketed out (in current continuity, Kal was basically a cosmic test tube baby and wasn't actually born until it reached Earth).

Krypto is pretty much like the Teen Titans in its relation to the Timmverse - its alluded to, but is really off in its own pocket continuity.

Interestingly enough, Krypto is in the first episode of S:TAS: Baby Kal is playing with him not long before the big kablooie.



Really? Man, that kinda takes some of the charm out of the story.

And we see Krypto in JLU's "For the Man Who Has Everything" Yeah, he's Supes' subconscious-feeding alien plant hallucination, but it kinda counts. In any case, it's a nice tribute.

Which is probably why it got retconned out in "Rebirth", which removed a lot of Byrne's Krypton and went for more of a Silver Age feel, and re-established the idea that Kal was born on Krypton.

Yes, and it recreated the same problem again. It doesn't explain why the Kryptonians didn't all leave the doomed planet.

I liked the Byrne's idea that they were genetically bound to the planet.

I assumed the genetic thing was because Byrne said he wanted Clark to be actually born on Earth so that Superman would be officially American. Before that the "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" was considered xenophobic since someone from beyond like him shouldn't have his loyalty limited to just one country. Byrne had him physically born in Smallville so that he'd genuinely represent "the American way."

Actually, that's been an indication of my problem with the concept of the Justice League of America: the "of America" part. The most powerful team of superheroes ever, the ones who act as the last heroes standing, the ones who save the universe constantly, and not only are most confined to Earth, but confined to America. That always seemed so "us-centric" (or rather, "US-centric"), one of those unintentionally pompous "no wonder every other country thinks we're arrogant" concepts. Which is why I liked it when they became the JLI: it showed that others were important too, and why I'm glad the show usually just refers to them as the Justice League.

Oh yeah, um, Topic? Dwayne McDuffie's done an awesome job on the show.

From a little while back:



The comic depiction closest to the JLU version would have to be Frank Miller's, in The Dark Knight Strikes Again. It's set some years in the future, so Vic's gotten old, but he's still spry, still faceless, and still crazy after all these years ("I will write my manifesto. It must be typed. Once you put your thoughts on disk the government has them", and so forth). Sadly, his appearance in the book is relegated to a bit part, but what's there is terrific: you can almost hear Jeffrey Combs' voice, particularly in the Q's hilarious political catfights with Green Arrow (GA: "What part of 'blow me' did you not understand, Mr. Atlas-Shrugged-is-the-word-of-God?" Q: "I'm no Ayn Rander! She didn't go nearly far enough!!").

I was thinking the same thing, caffinated. Thanks for the info, Harrison Fjord!


I thought the reason they didn't leave the planet was that "they - the general population" didn't know it was doomed. Wasn't that the big conflict between Superman's father and Brainac? The Kryptonian ptb only listened to Brainac and didn't realize the truth before it was too late.

I've blocked most of DKSA from my memory, because Frank Miller's "art" made me want to poke my eyes out, but from what little I remember... wasn't Jimmy Olsen the Question at that point? Of course, I could be mixed up not just from poor memory but from crappy lines on Miller's part that make it impossible for the reader to figure out which panel should be read first half the time.

All I can remember is the ending. That horrible, contrived ending. I wish I could forget it.

S:TAS I think dealt with the leaving Krypton question quite deftly. They could have left, but didn't appreciate the risk. They also aren't so space faring as to have a bunch of ships sitting around. Which makes Krypton feel very much like Earth. Advanced, but not super advanced. Ahead of Earth, sure, but also the same in a lot of ways. If we discovered that the Earth would be destroyed in 10 years, the entire resources of the planet might be able to figure out some way to get the population off the planet. If we discovered it would be destroyed tomorrow, though, what could we do? Even an advanced civilization might not be able to do much if they don't recognize the problem until their planet was in the final throughs of its destruction.

Certainly, a hyper advanced space faring race could not be realistically wiped out by the destruction of their home planet. But, if they were a little less space faring, it fits. Indeed, if Kryptonians were simply naturally inclined to stay with family and their homes as opposed to genetically obliged to stay on Krypton, it enhances the Superman mythos given the importance of home and family to Clark.

Nope. From dialogue, it's made pretty obvious that it's still Sage; I think the confusion just comes from the fact that Olsen is, by this point, also a craggy, redheaded crusading journalist in fanatical search of The Truth. (Whereas I'd be genuinely surprised to discover that the DKSA version of Vic even has a day job any more. Because, bitch crazy.)

Well, then they can make her a dying prostitute and we'll both win.

LOL! Aw, c'mon! Sweet Wendy? She made buttermilk biscuits for the team & stuff!

I mean- SHHH! Don't give Dwayne McDuffie ideas! ; )

Very true. What was the episode where Superman was going on about losing his whole family and planet and Jonn said something along the lines of understanding?

This is just my take on the citizenship thing -- Superman is a citizen of Earth whereas Clark Kent would seem to have American citizenship. As we all know you don't have to be born here to become a citizen. (referring here to the earlier mentioned 'test-tube' origin storyline) Not sure exactly how Ma and Pa Kent went about this, (and totally ignoring the current "Smallville" explanation), but as a foundling child with no known relatives, wouldn't the adoption process made Clark an American citizen? Clark would have had to have a birth certificate and social security card for all the necessary reasons you need stuff like that (school, jobs, passport).

And taking a moment from my rambling --

Thank you, Dwayne McDuffie for stopping by and joining in the discussions! Your comments on the level of destruction shown in "Flashpoint" were insightful into the process of making the show for both the intended audience and the audience of varied ages which seems to watch and enjoy the show.

Actually, the current explanation from the Kents, at least back during the Byrne-born-in-Kansas era (and to my knowledge not replaced during the recent retcon) was that Clark is the natural son of Jonathan and Martha, born at home during a very nasty winter season that kept the Kents cut off from everyone for several months. This, of course, worked perfectly well when Clark was absolutely a newborn at the time of their finding him, but plausibility may be stretched too far given the current "born on Krypton" continuity.

Thanks, Harrison Fjord, for the info!


"but, that's just not good enough for Superman, he must be *born* here -- let's fix that" -- imho -- That aspect of the storyline was a bad call on someone's part. It seems, to me, an insult to both those who have been adopted and those who have adopted this country as their own.

From what I've heard Byrne originally wanted Kal El's pregnant mother to be the one in the rocket. She would arrive on Earth, give birth to her son, name him, and then die from Kryptonite poisoning.

Would someone else have been there? Naming someone doesn't do much good if there's no one around who can understand what you're saying.

I imagine she would expire dramatically after being found by the Kents and imparting her last words. It would one of those ridiculously drawn out death scenes with a huge chunk of exposition.

Also... if the K-poisoning is enough to do in full-grown Lara, how on earth is baby Kal supposed to survive?

Byrne did some really nice things with the reboot, but sometimes he just makes me cringe. Thankfully, this is one of those things where it seems editorial oversight worked like it's supposed to and saved the day.

In Utero immunities or something? I don't know. Whole idea sounds dumb.

What are the odds of them doing some direct-to-DVD DCAU movies? Like, say, a Green Arrow/Black Canary one.