Damn! That was so fucking awesome! I had no clue that Luthor was going to use the cannon to attack Cadmus like that, so awesome. I loved the way they handled the aftermath, the various Justice Leaguers helping civillians, the people turning on them at the end, it was cool as shit. I love the intensely realistic way this show handles the existence of super powers and huge space bound ray guns in the real world. When you shoot a big ass ray gun, even outside of a residential area, it's going to fuck alot of things up. It was hugely awesome and really small and personal at the same time.

Did anyone else notice a rather pointed political subtext to the argument between Superman, Green Hornet, Djonn and Flash in the Watchtower. The show is so adult in alot of ways, I can't help but think the writers aren't using this platform to put out their ideas and I love that Hornet identified himself as an "old lefty." I can't believe I love this show more than I love Teen Titans when I wouldn't watch one episode of it prior to Justice Leage Unlimited. Was it always this incredibly good?

He is usually pretty handsome as journalist Vic Sage, but his face was pretty messed up after his beating by Luthor and torturing by Dr. Moon. And yes, the same gas that creates his "faceless" mask also turns his red hair black and changes the color of his clothes.

Why hasn't this show won an Emmy for writing? I can't help but think the show would be so much better if it went back to an hour.

I've probably only seen one ep. in total of Teen Titans but I couldn't really get into it because of its manic, anime style. So, I didn't really give it a chance. But it seems to have a huge fan following. So, I may be missing something. So you Teen Titans fans: do you think the writing is as good as JLU? Is it as sophisticated or is it more just an action driven show?



bbvdl - which Question comic or TPB is most like JLU's depiction of The Question? If there is one I'd like to read it. I want to know more about my new favorite character. Seriously, I love the guy. I think it's the monotone. And I MUST HAVE his "I Know" poster.

"Grammy Flash used to say 'An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind."

Amen, Grammy Flash. Amen.

ITA with everyone who's mentioned how realistic all of the reactions to the catastrophe were. I especially liked Green Arrow's when he couldn't say he didn't disagree with the government. His mentioning that he was afraid of the leaguers with superpowers was very poignant. (And it must complicate things with Black Canary.)

When the shockwave went down the street, a motorcycle went flying by. It looked like the driver wore a purple uniform and cape. Did I imagine that?



It depends. Sometimes TT can be very silly in a bad way. It works best when it's absolutely whacked out and surreal (think FLCL) or brings the ultra angst. Some of the episodes have been shockingly dark (especially for the audience they're targeting). The surreal eps are more action-oriented. The dark one more character-oriented. The dark eps also have a lot less of the anime schtick.

This show continues to be fantastic. It really really does. The ending? Power Girl and an army of Super Friends? Holy moley indeed! Superman won't be sneering at their corniness as easily this time, I think.

Regarding the question of what the president knows about Cadmus -- I got the idea he entrusted Waller with superhuman containment but doesn't know all the dirty details. As for the Cadmus facility getting blown up, I still got the idea Luthor acted without Waller's knowledge, so she's not entirely to blame for it either. Thoughts?

*waves to bbvl* You're going to recommend Cry for Blood, right? I just know it!

Thanks, Perfect Xero! I figured that they would have done away with all that stuff by now, but I wasn't sure. Diana doesn't really have a weakness that can be used against her then, does she, like Superman does with Kryptonite or red sunlight?

Who rescued Superman from space? Dr. Light? What is her story and Gypsy's story?

Yay Flash! Did anyone catch the name of the cat? I though I heard them say "Bebop".

"okay, hurting now"

Yes, it was Bebop.



I'm sure he figures if he doesn't know all the details, his hands won't be dirty.

Dr. Light II (not to be confused with Dr. Light I, the sometimes-stupid, sometimes-rapist villain) is Kimiyo Hoshi, a Japanese scientist who got her powers during the Crisis of Infinite Earths. She was a big part of that story (at one point, her reluctance to flee inadvertantly caused the original Supergirl to get distracted and die), the most important one being in the final battle with the Anti-Monitor, when she drained an entire star in order to weaken him.

Gypsy was a member of the "Detroit-era" Justice League and seemed to be J'onn's protege. She could turn invisible and (apparently) walk through walls. I don't know much about her, so someone else will have to clarify.

Does the gas create the mask in the cartoon? In the comics, at least in the Denny O'Neil series from the 80's, it just adheres the mask to his face. (And the opposite gas acts as a solvent.)



Dr. Light was a Japanese astronomer named Kimiyo Hoshi who was struck with energy by the Monitor during the early days of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He did so to create a hero with solar powers that could be used as part of his plan to defeat the Anti-Monitor. She was arrogant and dismissive of everyone, even after gaining her abilities, until the death of Supergirl (for which Light blamed herself for distracting Kara during her final battle) set her on the path to heroism. She briefly served with the Justice League in the 80's, but I don't know much about what she's done in the last 15 years or so.

Gypsy was a young runaway who had chameleon-like powers that allowed her to blend into her surroundings. She was a member of the Justice League during its much-reviled Detroit days. When that League broke up after several members (including the frequently-seen-in-the-cartoon Vibe and Steel) were killed by Professor Ivo, she returned to life in the 'burbs. She later rejoined the team for a while in the JLI era, after Despero killed her parents. She was also part of the Conglomerate with Booster Gold and Vibe's brother Reverb. She's another one I don't know much about for the last 15 years or so.

I agree with you here. From what they've shown us of Waller's nature in previous episodes, she believes she's doing the right thing, and is ultimately out to protect the nation (or so she believes.) Remember how furious she was with Eiling when she heard he'd launched the nuke? This time, it was an attack on her own countrymen - if she knew Luthor was responsible, she'd have him skinned alive. Instead, she's been tricked into thinking it was retaliation by the league.

I'm loving this show so much. Its almost like they've injected it with a little bit of a "Watchmen" vibe for good measure.

Man, that Luthor. He really is a criminal genuis!



ITA. Especially in "Question Authority". The Question became Rorschach so completely in that episode right down to the use of the word "armageddon". Which evein the face of, he would not compromise...

I haven't been able to watch this show since the priceless episode where Batman sang (lack of cable), but I just got back into it at "Question Authority" and wow! They've sure darkened up the show in a short time. I like it.

How strange (and ironic) that it was Superman, the so-called ultimate boy scout, who wanted Cadmus on a stick and didn't care what the law said while the Flash and Green Arrow were the voices of reason. Flash has sure grown up in the last season, and while I expected Martian Manhunter to be a voice of moderation, I really had to hand it to Green Arrow. He really does seem to be the voice of conscience at the Watchtower. It took balls to openly challenge a pissed-off Superman and Supergirl at the same time.

The ray striking the city and the immediate aftermath? I've still got chills. Well done to all involved with that.

J'onn as de facto League ambassdor to the President? Just seems right somehow. At least the Prez was willing to gather all the facts before rushing to conclusions, like the Cadmus woman (Waller?) wanted him to. Speaking of Waller, what the hell was with that army near the end? Cadmus is authorized to have a personal army on hand for whenever?

What powers does the Huntress have? I'm only familiar with the Birds of Prey version. Loved how she told J'onn to stuff it and get with the program.

I'm sort of disappointed that Question isn't really faceless. He looked more like an old-timey P.I. with the black hair and rumpled suit.

None. She's a non-powered vigilante a la Batman.

I think they are. When we saw cars get flipped over, people crawled out of them (like on the A*Team!) and we saw people coming to the windows of the office buildings that had all their windows shattered. And since the center point of the blast was "abandoned", I think they are going to pretend no one got killed. When the freeway chunk collapsed, no cars went over the edge.

And incidentally, I'm sure Green Arrow was just trying to help, but when my city has just been incinerated, am I really calling out for a guy with a boxing glove arrow? Even Elongated Man was more useful.

I'd say that overall it was better. Unlimited is a little more uneven quality-wise than its predecessor, but I the final episodes this season were spectacular. Then again, so was Starcrossed


Personally, I think that JL's writing tends to be better. Titans is targeted at a younger audience (hence its place in Miguzi). While it is a quality show (especially last night's episode), it doesn't quite have the sophistication of the Timmverse shows, IMO.



I think that showing EM's many uses is part of this show's mission statement.

Hey, like EM said himself, he's like Batman and Plasticman rolled into one.

Thanks, DMike and roosterboy for the info!


Thanks, the fresh maker! Please tell me that I wasn't the only one who took that as a shout out to "Cowboy Bebop".

Man, it's just criminal that an episode like this isn't longer than 20+ minutes! 'Course, I'll probably feel the same way next week too.

Power Girl! Whoo-hoo!

I understand that the most recent Question miniseries has The Q in a more conspiratorial frame of mind than he's exhibited before. (And he goes up against Luthor, too.) You might also want to track down Batman & Huntress: Cry For Blood, which is more of a Huntress/Question story than anything.

A magnificent bastard, if you will. It's too bad Question didn't tell Superman that Luthor now has superhuman strength, but he probably felt that Superman would immediately take off after Luthor if he knew that tidbit.

The real issue with Superman is this: it's not like he can really declare war on Cadmus without even talking to a majority of the founding members, can he?

Oh, and Flash finally gets to lead a team of heroes. Too bad it was mostly filled with the running jokes of the League. BG just isn't the same without Skeets, Vibe is still lame, Dove's a weenie, and I can't believe Gypsy runs around in a dress. That's even worse than the far too revealing tights that everyone else wears.

Yep, I went there.



After both Kara and Supes seemed all too ready to crack some heads, I don't blame him.



I miss Skeets. Actually, I miss Billy West.



At least he got Green Arrow to go with him, which set up a nice dynamic between the two. Flash, the guy with super powers who's both sensitive to those who are afraid of the League, but understands why their must be a League. Green Arrow, the guy who has no super powers, was forced into the League, is sympathetic with those who want to bring down the League, and no longer knows if he can even say what the League is good for.

Thanks Pete! And thanks all of you who have supplied me with an excellent list of comics and TPBs. I've probably now read about a dozen TPBs and miniseries in the last couple of weeks - all of which have rocked! Speaking of which, I now adore Elongated Man after reading the first issue of the Identity Crisis series. I hope we get to see more of him on JLU. Anyway, I love that I can come here and get all of my questions answered by all of you knowledgable fanboys and girls.

Oh, and thanks for explaining the whole Dr. Lights I & II thing. I thought my head was going to explode after having encountered the evil Dr. Light in Identity Crisis and Countdown to Infinite Crisis and then coming to find out there was another Dr. Light in the JLU.

Pete beat me to it, but I was going to suggest the same things. The recent Question miniseries also pits our faceless hero against Luthor on his home turf of Metropolis (and also involves Lois Lane, Vic's fellow journalist). It is very cool, if a bit weird. Really nice art, too. And I only started tracking down Cry For Blood back issues, but the first one I found, #3, presents the first meeting of Question and Huntress. There are six issues in all, but it would probably be easier to spring for the trade paperback. I know if I'm patient, I can get the back issues for cheaper, so I'm holding out.

I know it's a cartoon partly meant for kids way younger than me, but in an explosion like that thousands of people should be dead. If not tens of thousands. And if not tens of thousands dead, then certainly tens of thousands maimed and on the brink of death. I hope they follow up and don't cartoonize. Jean Grey was killed off for that attitude. I also hope this storyline ends with this season, as fantastic as it is. I kind of more enjoy the Green Lantern interplanetary milieu and the Wonder Woman gods and goddesses. I'd like them to get back to it.

Captain Atom was holding back. With his powers he could've irradiated every room they fought in and eventually Superman would've gotten weaker. The way the writers wrote that scene Captain basically declared he had this fight won before it started and if you think about it he was right.

Atleast that's how I view the way the writers wrote it. They painted themselves into a corner with that line and either ignored it or sidestepped that fact.

This episode sucked mainly because it's a bridge episode. Everything that happens is basically predictable and enjoyable but we know a lot more beter things are going to happen.

Where is Cadmus supposed to be located? Seems to me that it was located on the outskirts of a suburb, so tens of thousands dead seems stretching. The explosion was largely contained within the direct vicinity of Cadmus, and I can't even see 2,000 dead because of it.

I can see a lot of injuries from the secondary damage, possibly deaths in the low, low hundreds. But even that would be such a dramatic change of tone for this show that I don't know that I could stomach it. The tone of Batman Begins was adult enough from word one that I had no problem with the catastrophic death toll of that film.

Justice League has never been that bleak, despite numerous chances to do so, so to suddenly break out the "tens of thousands" dead would feel like a grab for false gravitas, especially in what appears to be an area that barely has 10,000 people in it if that.

For Captain Atom to pull that off, Superman would just have stand there and let him do it. Superman is dumb sometimes, but not that dumb. Captain Atom would have a hard time irradiating the whole complex while Superman is punching his face in.



The office building Cadmus was using looked like it located right in the middle of the city to me. Even if that building was vacated, there were numerous office buildings all around it that were occupied. Hundreds of people should have been killed or maimed just by the flying glass and debris alone. And a lot of others should have been killed by the gas and electrical explosions and fires immediately afterward.

I'm guessing at least 3 to 4,000 could have been killed. At least several more thousand should be injured.

As far as it being too dark, I don't have a big problem with that. Mainly because civilian deaths are fairly common in the comics. And knowing Luthor's character, he's not above murdering a lot of people just to advance his agenda. That's why Superman is so paranoid about Luthor because he knows what he's capable of.

Where did Skeets go?

I was so surprised when I saw Gypsy and Vibe on the episode. I had to tell the boyfriend who they are, and the only reason I knew was because someone had put a link in here to Justice League: Detroit, which was awful, after reading about it.

But what scene did the JL: Detroit's Steel show up? I think I saw Rocket Red, but I could have been mistaken.

Wasn't he sucked into the black hole in science boy's chest during BG's main episode?

Yes, but then he, and everything else, was spit back out when BG finally gets the collar around the old Prof's neck.

Skeets' line upon being returned was "It was full of stars!"

None of the supporting heroes had any lines, did they? The animators must have just decided not to include Skeets with BG.

I agree that it seems like the writers want us to think that nobody was killed. I also agree that's unrealistic. It's kinda insulting for them to expect us to believe that nobody would get killed in a military "air strike" near a populated area, particularly considering what has happened in the real world in places such as Iraq. But at least they pointed out that the explosion had consequences for the people in the city.

I like the direction they're going with this story. It's great to see all the pieces fall into place. I like how details from previous episodes, such as the League teleporting Green Arrow to their headquarters without his prior consent, have been brought up later. I also like that Lex is earning his rep as a criminal genius.



I'd like to see this explored more, particularly since it would mean more Green Arrow and Black Canary. My guess is that Green Arrow isn't particularly concerned about Black Canary's powers, since she isn't one of the League's big guns and she relies mostly on her human athleticism. I'm curious how Black Canary views herself. Does she herself as similar to Green Arrow and Batman, as a human fighter who has a sonic scream instead of arrows or a utility belt as her weapon, or does she see herself as a superhuman like Flash and the Elongated Man?

It's not "unrealistic," it's a children's cartoon rated Y-7. Frankly I was surprised they let us go as far as we did.

Fair enough. I mean, we can take it as read that there probably were casualties, simply the episode didn't give any focus on that aspect.

And Dwayne, I have to say, you guys are doing an incredible job. You're giving us the show I never knew I always wanted!

Yeah, I'm also quite surprised that the studio and network heads allowed for such a realistic depiction of collapsing buildings. I've seen the ep. a few times now and I flinch every time I see that happy couple react to the blast and the impending shockwave of destruction. It reminds me of some of the stories my co-workers have told me about their journeys into the work on the morning of 9/11 (I wasn't working in downtown Manhattan at the time) - one guy in particular was making his way to our building from Battery Park City to the other side of Broadway (basically from one side of the WTC to the other) when the first plane hit. He's the first one I thought of when I saw that couple. I wonder if kids (say...8 or 9 years old) would associate the Watchtower blast with what happened to the World Trade Center.

One decent episode doesn't make up for a season of suckitude. While I realize they're trying to make several statements here, and much of the past episodes have been a setup leading into this, I don't think it was accomplished very well. I'm going to repeat my plea that this storyline will result in the destruction of the current formation of the League and a return to a smaller core group.

Power Girl lives! I do love when they add a tip of the hat to the older comics fans.

The blast seemed confined to the immediate area of the building, it's the shockwave that caused all the collateral damage. I think they're going to go with 'nobody killed', as we saw those cars miraculously stop before falling off the edge of the broken highway. "Wait, I can see their parachutes!"

Well it's actually a bit odd since Toonami allows millions of civilians to get blown to bits in their anime shows (also rated TV-Y7).

-shrug- Not to be glib about it but you're really part of a very small minority of viewers. And seriously, if you don't like it you might as well cut your loses because, from what I've seen across the board, in different forums, most people like what's going on with the JLU right now.

Not so much ... Of course she's vulnerable to "sharp" weapons like bullets, arrows, swords, et cetera ... Not that it makes much sense that she can take a punch from Superman but might get killed by a bullet if it manages to get past her bracelets.


The Question in JLU seems, IMO, to be based more on the character of Rorschach from Alan Moore's excellent graphic novel "The Watchmen" more so than any of the DC universe's portrayals of the character.

Of course Rorschach was originally based on The Question, so I guess it's come full circle.

And since Dwayne McDuffie is posting here I just have to ask -- Why does Superman have to be the world's biggest asshole in every episode? He acts like some steroid pumped professional wrestler.

It's because Superman is a dick!

Ah, that's pretty nifty. Actually, I do have a copy of The Watchman. I should finish reading it.

I'm a somewhat recent viewer of JLU, but I was shocked to discover that some of my friends were huge fans of JL but stopped watching when they expanded. I guess from their perspective I can understand that it's kind of unsettling to have your well known core cast of characters get shoved a bit to the side to accomodate a dozen or so more (speaking role) characters. But I've now taken it upon myself to re-introduce those friends to the show. Yeah, we get a little less of the Flash...etc... but damn, all the new characters are, IMHO, just as fully developed and are as interesting if not more so. And without the expansion I might have never met GA, Huntress, Canary, Elongated Man...and Question...did I mention that I LOVE Question!?

I thought the first season of JL was quite boring, but I've never been a big fan of the "Big 7" JLA, including in the comics. I prefer a large team with rotating members depending on the mission, a la Mission: Impossible, and seeing second- and third-stringers get their time in the spotlight. That's why I love JLU with the expanded roster. Needless to say, my favorite incarnation of the League in the comics included Batman, J'onn, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Guy Gardner, Mister Miracle (with Barda), Captain Atom, and Rocket Red.

Of course, there's a long history of that sort of thing. Like in The A*Team where thousands of rounds are fired and cars flip over with frightening consistency, but everyone manages to be fine.

Or, for that matter, Batman Begins, where Batman cheerfully drops landmines in front of police cars which go on to flip over in showy explosions. Good thing Alfred says "It's a miracle no one was killed" because otherwise, people might think things got out of hand.

Superman's being tested. Keep watching.

Yeah, I just don't remember the first season being anywhere near this good. And not just in terms of the missions which were boring, but the snarky and politically relevant dialogue. I feel like they're just taking alot more risks with this season, moving the show from the kiddie realm to the adult. Which rocks. Teen Titans is perfect because it's a show that can appeal to kids, but is so madcap, crazy and visually wild there's something for the animation fans of all ages. But JL as a kid show seemed like stilted or something, JLU kicks all kinds of ass. Especially since it really makes Superman look like the biggest douche ever.

I think Starcrossed and the Justice Lords story were much better than anything we've seen this season, even if they were the direct lead-ins. I blame the god awful 80s theme song.

It doesn't need to go back to the original seven, just get rid of the clutter.

He's ALWAYS 'being tested' it never sticks or goes away. As such in general he comes off as extremely patroarchial or insanely static. Xena had this problem to the point even her fans weren't biting at the end.

I'll put it like this beating up Captain Marvel out of spite made him look terrible. Treating the League as his personal guard to go smacking with makes him look like a terrorist. Its getting to where the character is not going to be salvagable to the audience. The writers can write any salvaging of the character but this could easily head to Phoebe Halliwell territory.

I think Superman handled the situation poorly, but I don't think he was beating up Captain Marvel out of spite.

I like what the show has done with Superman this season. I don't "like" his behavior, but I think it is believable and makes for an interesting story. I think the greatest risk with a character such as Superman is that he can easily become boring if the writers don't allow him to be flawed. However, I do agree that Superman will have to demonstrate that he's learned from his mistakes or else it's going to be hard to salvage the character.

I don't know who Phoebe Halliwell is, but Superman constantly learns from his mistakes and when it comes down to it, takes appropriate actions (even when they make him look bad, as in many of the situations that Luthor has engineered to that purpose). He does what's right, not what's easiest.

Consider, Superman is powerful enough to end Cadmus right now. Why doesn't he? He tells Huntress why in "Question Authority." Later, in "Panic in the Sky," despite his understandable anger and frustration, rather than going after Cadmus he talks about it with the rest of the Justice League, who he knows will disagree with attacking. As J'onn points out, Superman came there to be talked down.

Our version of Superman is far from perfect. He makes mistakes but eventually gets the right answer. He might walk right up to the precipice, but he'll never fall in.

Hang in there, the story's not over yet.

The precipice of evil or the precipice of being a jackass, cause it might be a little late for the later. I actually love the unsympathetic way Superman's being written right now. He's iconic to the point of irritation and making him annoying works for me.