Well Marvel does have plenty of icons, they just don't mirror DC's.

DC does not have a direct counterpart to Spider-Man, Captain America, Silver Surfer or the Hulk.

And before someone brings up Solomon Grundy being a Hulk counterpart, the original Grundy was nothing at all like the Hulk. They remade Grundy over the years, and now today he has become a Hulk-like creature. And even still, Grundy's and the Hulk's origins are nothing alike.

And before DC came up with Steel, they never had an iconic counterpart to Iron Man. And Steel is a blatant rip-off of Iron Man, even if DC would never admit that.

This is true, but if you just take part of the heroes (powers/personality) there are some pretty strong parallels.

Capt. America matches up well to Superman as a symbol of truth, justice, etc.
Spider-Man and Kyle Rayner have pretty similar personalities/circumstances, when you think about it.
Silver Surfer's powers are comparable to a Green Lantern's.
As for the Hulk, I'm not sure, although on JLU Atom Smasher seems to be the closest to a brute that I've seen in the DCAU.

What DC's big time heroes lack are a sustained distrust from the public. For the most part all of DC's heroes are loved by the vast majority of the public, although in JLU it looks like that might be changing thanks to some Cadmus/Luthor manipulations. I'd love to see what the papers wrote about Superman's throwdown with Capt. Marvel.

The comics are heading in this direction too, with the OMAC Project miniseries leading into the huge Infinite Crisis event.

I agree with Riverthames. I like Marvel characters fine. In fact, I've probably read more Marvel superhero books over the years than DC ones. But Marvel is all about how small life issues can be even when you're a hero. It's about the relationship angst and the rent payment problems and what happens when you have super power but can still get cancer and allegories for racism or homophobia and things like that.

I don't really think the iconic representation argument has to do so much with the powers/style of the character, or how well known they are, but about how the DC characters are often less people than embodiments of ideas.

Out of all Marvel, I'd say the Hulk is iconic perhaps of "enraged id" or raw physical strength, in a way I don't think is mirrored or eclipsed directly by any of the big DC heroes, and Captain America is iconic of a certain perspective on patriotism/America, which you might have gotten in some of the older DC characters like Wonder Woman during the very "WW2/Nazi fighting" story years, but isn't really a core character facet in modern times.

But Flash is Speed, in a way no Marvel characters who happen to have speed powers is. Wonder Woman is female strength (not that I mean she's an ideal feminist model), and there's some fascinating stuff involved with the motivations and beliefs of her creator. Green Lantern is, I'd argue, iconic of...oh, this idea of humankind mastering "power"/the fundamental forces of the universe in a broad sense, using reason, and the notion that intellect or science applied ethically and rationally would vanquish evil.

Meanwhile, I'd argue (not an original argument, to be sure) Superman and Batman have over the years become two sides of one meta-character, a comment on the strengths and weaknesses of humanity as a whole.

I really don't think you can say that about Marvel anymore. At least not the Marvel I've read over the last decade or so. Nowadays it's all about flash and attitude and the "realistic" aspects have been shunted aside.

Peter Parker now lives in Avengers headquarters with his supermodel wife and elderly aunt.

The X-Men ceased being an allegory for racism long ago.

The Avengers isn't about the greatest heroes coming together to stand against injustice, it's about getting the coolest dudes on the block, even when it makes so sense for them to be part of a team.

That's possible. I haven't collected comics heavily for about 8 years, and those I do get tend to be non-mainline superhero books (though I did get the JLA vs. Avengers mini).

But even if the Marvel characters are all about being flashy and cool now, they're still not about these big semi-abstract archetypes.

So, what's the deal with this Infinite Crisis? Is DC reconstructing the continuity again? Just the other day I saw the Prelude to the Infinite Crisis at my local comic book store. It looks like the 'Prelude' is a guide to the upcoming Infinite Crisis. Do any of you think that the 'Prelude' would give a newbie a sufficient enough background of the DC characters and universe to understand what's going on?

Nope. It seems to be some big event that's more Earth-based than cosmic, and the writers have already mentioned that it's not rebooting or making things like they were pre-Crisis of Infinite Earths. After Infinite Crisis, all the titles will have their stories taking place a year later, which will be the big shake-ups.

Yeah, Infinite Crisis not going to change DC's continuity, but it's definitely going to alter the relationships between a lot of the heroes for years to come. Some characters may die, and there will be a lot turmoil and chaos in the DC Universe books.

Apparently, after the whole Infinite Crisis ends, all of the continuity in the DC Universe books will jump ahead one year. And then we will see the aftermath of what happened.

DC has set up a page on their website called "Crisis Counseling". It has brief summaries of what has happened in the Crisis storyline up to the present. It's a big aid if you're not interested in buying all the tie-in books, but want to keep track of the whole story.

I put a link to it below. But be forewarned that the page does have spoilers for current issues and some upcoming issues.

Crisis Counseling

If you want a decent primer on Infinite Crisis head here:

Infinite Crisis

I'm not a comic reader, but with all the Batman Begins hype I'd surfed to their site. Some interesting speculation on the fallout (Bruce Wayne hanging up the cowl, for example). They also seem to be revisiting the Batman is a paranoid zealot with multiple anti-metahuman plans angle, although it looks like he actually has a pretty good justification this time.

Season finale just aired on YTV. All I can say is, HOLY NOSTALGIA, BATMAN ! More when I can collect my thoughts.

Having just rolled over only wee bit of your spoiler tag, I'm assuming the finale was good?

Eh, I wasn't a big fan of the season finale. Probably because I always thought that Terry was a bit of a d-bag.

Spoiler tags, Strumpet.

Strumpet, you may want to spoiler tag your post, as the finale hasn't aired in the US yet. But yes, I agree...

For people who want completely out-of-context, semi-spoilery quotes to whet their appetites or generally annoy them:
"Dick, Barbara, Tim, Selena...."
"...the great and powerful Amanda Waller."
"It's been many a year since I've had a handsome gentleman caller."
"Why is it that superheroes are always... so good-looking?"
"Why else keep dating for 15 years?
"That's a risk I'm willing to take."
"I guess that's what all this is about... legacies"
"Good of you to drop in, considering that three-quarters of the Iniquity Collective are from your rogue's gallery."
"The Justice League needs Batman."
"Batman is dead."
"Didn't stop the Joker from using it on Tim Drake."
"It's a curse."
"Because the world needs a Batman."
"I decided to make a new one."
"Project Batman Beyond."
"...he left it all over town-- Not remotely what I meant." BWAH!!!!
"The rest is tragedy."
"One problem: my assassin wouldn't pull the trigger. I argued with her, but deep down I knew she was right."
"You're not his clone..."
"Just like my old man."

"Did you see that?"

Actual (very spoilery) thoughts on the finale:

I'm completely torn. On one hand I loved all the nods to continuity, but on the other hand most of it felt incredibly forced. I really don't see how cloning Bruce would do any good in the first place, unless their version of cloning allows for personalities to be inherited

Now, I love me my Andrea and was delighted to see her again, but her appearance came out of nowhere and served absolutely no purpose. In fact, that's how part of me feels about the entire episode. It seemed as if they were trying to tie up all the loose ends, but all they ended up doing was creating new questions. Tying up Batman Beyond with the Cadmus arc (which by itself already felt forced) was not the way to go.

On a more positive note, the Royal Flush Gang scene was done quite well, and I'm still discovering new shout-outs with each repeated viewing.

So, while the majority of it felt forced and contrived, it was all worth it to see Inque again. Oh, and Future Terry is kinda hot. I'm just sayin'. Dana, though? Should really keep her hair long. And as for you Max haters, you'll be happy to know she was nowhere in sight. Well, except for her brief appearance as Batwoman.

And lest I forget it, the nod to "On Leather Wings" was definitely the highlight of the episode. And I was kidding about the Batwoman thing.

A rather fitting end to the series, except there's still another season to go! I was just about to say, "How could they possibly top that?", but I think trying to top themselves was what led up to the messy Cadmus arc in the first place. Rather than try to go out with a bang, I hope they just try to have fun with the rest of the series.

So true. When they mentioned he was Bruce's son, my first thought was but he's so...lame! Ibn would mop the floor with him. There goes any chance of him showing up. Not that I had much hope of seeing him to begin with. But I just love those Al Ghul's.

It was still a neat idea for an episode (don't know about a JLU finale, though). But a nice way to tie things up, none the less and I got to see Golden Child GL and the Royal Flush Gang, again.

Though I was surprised at one of their real identiteis. It reminded me of that comic Rising Stars. To bad they could'nt show more of them.

Also, damn YTV!! I missed the the first few minsutes cause they accidentley aired a workout program and a cartoon about snails. Then when I wanted to see it again and tape it they aired MTV Spider Man it's it's slot.

They'll air SD Gundam and JL reruns twice, but not new JLU. *sigh*

A quick question about "Epilogue":

Was Barbara Gordon the one who was going to kill Terry's parents for Amanda Waller? Looked like her but I can't confirm because I didn't tape the episode and YTV aired Spider-man instead in the JLU re-run slot.

I thought that "Divided We Fall" would serve better as a finale but I guess that's why the producers decided to call this episode "Epilogue".

It was Andrea Beaumont, aka The Phantasm, whose only prior appearance was in the Mask of the Phantasm movie.

Seriously, though, I hope everyone here has been following the Timm universe since the original B:TAS, or else the season finale will go over your head.

Unnh, what was the reference?

And gotta agree with the BWAH! to the "Not remotely what I meant."

I thought that was the assassin. Good to know that she's still alive. Loved Ace, mainly because I liked the character's initial appearance as well.

I'm trying to recall that appearance, but failing. Help?

Later, at the Roostercave: Nevermind, found it!

Tell me about it!!! When that stupid snail show came on, I thought they weren't going to show JLU. I got all pissed off, and started flipping channels. Ended up missing the first couple minutes.

Great episode on CN tonight, "Question Authority." I'm a huge Question fan, so I was marking out the entire time. Nice heel turn from Captain Atom too. This show is shaping up so great, and there are so many parallels between JLU and the DC Universe in the comics that I wonder how far ahead they planned everything, and who put their heads together to come up with it all.

Good episode I thought with the Question finding out what's really going on between Cadmus and Luthor. Plus he got to sit in the private conference room.

The Question may be lacking in certain social skills but he's got a pair. First, he talks alone with Supes about what he (could of done, would of done, did) in the White House with Luthor and Supes could have lobotimized him right then and there and who would believe that Supes did it to keep him quiet and not because the Question attacked him or tried to hurt him with Kryptonite. Second, he went to Luthor to kill him so Supes wouldn't have the chance to kill him and thus prevent what could happen.

It's too bad that while Huntress (she calls him "baby doll"?) has it bad for the Question, it doesn't seem to reciprocate 100% or else the Question would have had reservations about giving up what he could have had with her by killing Luthor.

Captain Atom. Loyal to the league or just another flyboy?

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to remove all the aglets from my shoelaces. BTW, does anybody know where I can buy non-fluoridized toothpaste?

Intense shit. And Question really is the biggest nutter who ever lived.

And if you think Question has a pair...how about Lex? Sinks $75 million into a fake presidential campaign just to fuck with Superman's head. He does have a point...if he becomes president, he would lose a lot of his power. Now, the thing with him being rejuvinated? I didn't get that.

Capt Atom...I guess he's just a bitch for authority.

Looking at clips...Vibe? Is he part of Operation: Throw As Many Second-Stringers As We Can To Form a Human Shield?

great ep! I love that they picked up the Lois/Supes story. It was starting to bug me that we got lots of Lois screen time without any kind of nod to the Lois/Supes ship. So, it's been "years" since "Legacy". So, they've been together for "years"? Ummm..are we to assume that she knows he's Clark? Hmmm?

Also, who's that second stringer JL guy who was shown in the preview credits that wears a grey hood? They've shown him in the background a lot but I don't think they've ever mentioned him by name.

Me neither. I hope maybe it is the vest and not the Kryptonite poisoning he got which lead to a Nietzcheian solution.

I'm thinking now that maybe the government has something on his grand relatives or something and if they don't get his full cooperation, they'll pay the price. The government always negotiates from a position of strength.

I'm sure Vic cares about the Huntress. But he cares a lot more about preventing a possible Armageddon.



Luthor has been Smallvilled!. You know how on Smallville where someone gets exposed to Kryptonite and gets some wacky super-powers. I'm guessing that the vest Luthor wore helped synthesize in his body down to non-lethal levels and instead of killing him, it gave him super-powers.

In previous outings with the Question, I thought it odd that they sometimes showed him alone in his offtime with his little latex face mask still on.

In this one, I finally figured out that this version of the Question HAS NO FACE. When they were torturing him his fa-- well, the front of his head, had bruises and scars.

Sorry but that's a little freaky.

It's not latex. Vic's mask a special polymer that comes in a small capsule in gas form. When he releases the gas, the polymer bonds to the skin tissue of his face. It can only be removed by another special chemical that only Vic has.

(If you saw the Question's first appearance on the show, you got to see his eyes just before he used the capsule.)

Though I have not consistently liked her, I found Huntress more tolerable in this ep. But she has an entire utility belt - why is stuff going down her underwear?!

Am I the only one who wishes they'd gotten Leah Remini to do her voice?

Still better-looking than the Birds of Prey outfit. Thanks WB.

Captain Atom only grows a Southern accent once he's evil. Got it.

So he'll be lusting after Lana Lang for no good reason?

So the Question is finding that even his paranoia has limits. Cannot wait for him to smudge his face so that it reveals patterns. Sorry...comic geek joke, that.

They showed the Question's face in his first featured episode, "Fearful Symmetry," when he got into a taxicab.



Not 100% sure who you mean, but I'm guessing it is Hourman, a JSA member, if he had some yellow to his costume. I definitely saw a shot of him in the closing credits.



Hurm.

So long as he doesn't start dropping the objects from his sentences (Actually, I thought that the scene where Vic & Supes were alone in the conference room was going to have Question shouting at Clark to get it overwith and blast him).

I just saw all episodes from "The Question Authority" onwards tonight, I couldn't wait for CN to air 'em. :)

Holy Bruce Timm-verse!
I don't know where to start? The whole Brainiac-Luthor bit was neat, I *loved* Flash having such a big fight, it was great to see him step out from behind Superman earlier in the same episode too.

As for Terry being Batman's son, wow, with a cameo by Andrea-Phantasm, that was actually nicely done, plus grown up Terry looks like a young Bruce from Phantasm.
I love Amanda W's lines, including the one where she says it's too bad Terry didn't get Bruce's brain.

I am not sure why they felt the need to wrap it up this way, I guess they must've felt this was the end of the Bruce Timm universe, so they joined it all together, from Batman: TAS, to Batman & Robin, to Superman, to Batman - Superman, to Justice League, to Justice League Unlimited, to Batman Beyond. I guess it's a nice way to connect the universe, I dunno though, they could've ended it with Divided We Stand.

I like the lil Animated Universe nods, such as the Grey Ghost movie Terry & his parents saw, Phantasm, Ace/lil girl who connects with Terry in the future, etc.

"Captain Atom only grows a Southern accent once he's evil. Got it. "

Apparently not. Captain Atom has had the same accent in every apperance (albeit from two different performers). Not to mention that he's not evil, he was following lawful orders.

I like hearing Huntress call The Question "Q". The meeting of the Qs -- there's a crossover for ya.

At the end of the scene between Superman and Prof. What-is-name, was the Prof. expressing relief that Superman did not "express his anger" or was there something else going on there?

And was he the same one to tell Superman that the kryptonite had been stolen in "Clash"?

Reading through the above spoilers and checking out future episode titles, is JLU being cancelled? Or are more episodes being planned? It just strikes me as odd that they would yank the show off the air just as WB/DC comics are getting new Batman and Superman movie franchises off the ground.

No, right now Season three of JLU is in production. But they didn't know that they were going to get the green light for a third season when they produced the current season so (from what I understand) they wrote this season as if it was going to be the last.



I just did an image search for Hourman and yup, that looks like him. I love his costume and he just looks like an intriguing character. Not knowing anything about the character, I think he kind of has a sorcerer look to him. Thanks bigbadvoodoolou, which btw, is one of the best screen names I've come across.



Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was disguise or not but he did use the gas to change into his 'Q' persona so it looks like Vic has red hair. For some reason, I just love that. And wow, that gas is some powerful stuff...not only just it create the mask but it also changes his hair color and his suit. One more thing, wouldn't you think Huntress would know 'Q's' identity by now?

By the way, where's a good place to download these remaining JLU eps?

I think there's something else going on there. I'm not entirely convinced that Hamilton is acting of his own accord. I know he may have been frightened by Superman once, but they've been friends for years, I just don't see it in his character to join Cadmus without it either being coerced or hoping to be a monkey wrench in the works from within.

That's the impression I got from that scene. How I got that from a few seconds of animation is anyone guess, could've been the setting -- looking for conspiracies.

What was the exchange between Superman and Captain Atom at the beginning about the villain. All I could understand was Superman's response of "he's from A...., they're all like that."

And what was the last conspiracy theory, Vic spouted off when Superman and Huntress rescued him?

It was about the chattiness of the villain.

IIRC, it was that there were secret messages encoded into carb-free breakfast bars.

Obvious, as Atkins *had* to be a conspiracy.

He's from Apokalips, the planet ruled by Darkseid (and currently engaged in a civil war). In the episode "The Ties That Bind," Mister Miracle, Barda, and Flash journeyed to Apokalips to rescue Kalibak, and Superman ended up there more than once in Superman: The Animated Series, usually fighting Darkseid. All the characters from Apokalips were created by Jack Kirby, so they're all quirky, weird villains.



The original Golden Age Hourman was Rex Tyler, who developed a drug called Miraclo that could give him super strength and invulnerability for one hour. He became physically addicted to it, but loved the adrenaline rush and the adventure. He wore a yellow and black costume with a hood and cape. His son Rick became Hourman for a short time in the '80s (in an ugly purple costume), and for a while, an android from the 853rd century, armed with the time-altering Worlogog, acted as Hourman. Currently Rick Tyler is back in the role of Hourman with the JSA, honoring his father's legacy, and his current costume in the comics is the version we saw on JLU.



Question and Huntress have some history in the comics as well, from the six-issue miniseries Batman/Huntress: Cry For Blood, by Greg Rucka and Rick Burchett. I haven't read it myself, but I need to add it to my Question collection. I think a trade paperback exists. And the gas does change his hair and suit color along with obscuring his face.

And thank you, MereyGB, regarding my screen name! I used to be really into the ska and swing scenes of the late '90s, DJing swing dances and playing sax in bands and wearing suits. Big Bad Voodoo Daddy was big back then (in the movie Swingers, and a bunch of cool guys in real life), so my DJ name (and screen name) became Big Bad Voodoo Lou.

Hold the phone...

Question about this spoiler:

As for Terry being Batman's son, wow, with a cameo by Andrea-Phantasm, that was actually nicely done, plus grown up Terry looks like a young Bruce from Phantasm.


How is this possible? Wasn't the whole reason Terry became the new Batman was b/c his father was killed? Are we to assume he was adopted?

The final scene mirrors the first scene ever on Batman: The Animated Series, but with the police blimp replaced by a futuristic helicopter. One of the cops even says, "Did you see that?" Add to that the Batman Beyond-ified main theme, and you have a continuity fan's dream come true!




Well, it's complicated... As Waller tells Terry, she got hold of Bruce's DNA ("He left it all over town-- Not remotely what I meant."), then injected nanotech into Terry's dad that would alter his reproductive genes so they would match Bruce's. The reason Waller chose the McGinnises in the first place was because they fit the same psychological profile as Bruce's parents. Never mind that none of this is at all scientifically sound.

Anyway, Terry was born and Waller hired an assassin (apparently Andrea's new chosen profession) to kill Terry's parents to set Terry on the course to becoming Batman. Only thing was Andrea couldn't kill Terry's parents because "Batman would never commit murder, and you can't honor his legacy by resorting to it yourself." Waller was going to kill them herself, but she knew Andrew was right and just let the McGinnises be. "Luckily," Terry's dad was murdered a few years later. Whether it was fate, coincidence, or contrived story-telling, Terry would become the new Batman.

The question of whether Terry is Bruce's son or clone wasn't really answered. I'm leaning more towards son, since the nanotech only altered Daddy McGinnis's reproductive genes.

Does anyone know what DC Universe characters won't ever be on the show, I know Blue Beetle won't show up until the fifth season if they decide to add him ever and neither will Plastic Man.

Can they delve into the Vertigo line since Hellblazer, The Sandman, Saga of the Swamp Thing are within the normal DC continuity (I assume as Constatine sometime teams up with the Phantom Stranger and J'onn has shown up in the Sandman) or are they too mature to be added?

I would love to see the Spectre show up unless he has already.

I thought "Epilogue" was really good though the whole jumping along the timeline was jarring and got confusing.

Thanks shdwrlm. While all this sounds like a great way of tying everything in the universe together, it does sound a bit contrived.

Does Terry usually have Blue eyes? I don't have any BB episodes on tape, but I couldn't help but think that Terry used to have brown eyes.

Anyway, the whole episode is incredibly contrived. And besides I thought that the show was called JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED, not BATMAN "is the most important hero ever so any of you people who are fans of other heroes should just give it up and realize that Batman is the most important, cause he is" UNLIMITED.

Wow, that's odd... I was just reading the thread on "Epilogue" at Toonzone, and apparently the black and white sequences were not flashbacks, but rather what Terry was considering on doing. So, am I the only dense one here who thought they were flashbacks? I mean, I was wondering why Terry called Dana later and asked if they were still on for Saturday night if he had broken up with her, but I didn't think it was readily obvious that they weren't flashbacks.

Also, can anyone give me background on the Inequity Collective? Are they an actual villain team in the comic books? Whether they are or not, BEST. GROUP NAME. EVER.

And to further complicate things, if the nanotech changed Daddy McGillis' reproductive DNA, does that mean Matt is Bruce's son, too?

ETA: Just checked out Dwayne McDuffie's message board, and he does confirm that Matt is Bruce's son.

Actually, it is answered. Waller says a couple of times that Terry is Bruce's son. And in the scene with newborn Terry, she says that his genetics is half Bruce Wayne, half Mama McGinnis.



Nope, I did too.