I was incredibly depressed that I had to wait an extra week for my Flash just to sit through that. Ugh.

First, if I want to watch cartoon characters engaged in a cage match, I'll watch professional wrestling. Second, where was the Justice League part of this episode? That was more "Lesser-known Characters of the DC Universe Unlimited." Third, could there be an older or more obvious plot device than Green Arrow "playing dead?" Lots of places I can catch rehashed plots of 40-year-old Start Trek plots. And speaking of Star Trek parallels, what a kick in the teeth for Martian Manhunter. They could have left him some dignity but nooooooo ... he's now a sad amalgam of Uhura and Deanna Troi.

I agree with you, False Dmitri, but I think that the source of his insecurity isn't any inherent lack of esteem, but rather a byproduct of this new expanded Justice League. He's gone from being a mentor and leader to just being a insignificant cog in a great machine.

I think that the writers are trying to show the ways in which the expanded League is untenable. First, we have the earlier governement stuff where we see that they fear the league's power, have experimented on them, and are aware of their secret identities. We've also seen other eps where members didn't get along or were deeply dissatisfied with their role in the JL. I think there will be a huge shake-up in the organization, from within and without, if not an outrght dismantling of the League.

Yeah, and I would rather watch them than Superman or the Green Lantern any day of the week. Bleh. Besides, Black Canary has been shown and not used for most of a season, and she was, at least once, a founding member of the JLA.

I especially liked the animation of Ollie sulking when they were riding the bike and she's talking about Wildcat.

Cartoons have writers?

Seriously though, if this is what the writers are going for, it would be great. As the League falls apart, the story-telling should be terrific.

I've been craving an animated Black Canary since I was a kid watching Super Friends--and this was almost worth the wait. Loved how they didn't make any bones about it--Black Canary can kick just about anyone's ass. More, please!

I really liked the characterizations in this episode. While I agree Wildcat's insecurity was a bit off, I think it was presented convincingly so they sold me on it. Its their Wildcat, after all, and I don't think it weakened the character. Just a moment of weakness.

The more I think about the illegal meta-bouts, the more I'm able to rationalize it. For one, being illegal is easily reasoned. Fights like boxing or UFC need to be licensed and sactioned by a regulatory agency. It seems quite reasonable that such authorities would not sanction fights involving metahumans due to the significant safety concerns. And though they made it seem very visable in the episode, I'm willing to give them a pass on that, too. It can be assumed that given the illegal nature of it and the lengths they had to go to find the arena that this is being done very underground. Still seems pretty unreasonable, especially given the level of sophistication in the arena (and more importantly, the arena's audience), but not quite as big a disconnect as it was at first sight.

I was surprised to see that Ollie is open about his "secret identity". Obviously, given his distinctive appearance, he's not going to great lengths to keep it a secret, but the casual nature it was treat was still surprising given how important the alter-ego is in superhero stories. I liked it, actually, as the surprise worked to good effect. It really adds to GA's distinctive persona and seperate him from fellow rich boy Batman. Although, it does strike me that this is how Richard Branson would act if he decided to be a superhero. He's got the goatee, too. *shudder* Branson in green tights is not an image I wanted to put into my head.

Does Ollie actually do anything worthwhile as a civilian? Since he sold his company and collected more than enough money to spend all of his time fighting as Green Arrow, the Oliver Queen identity may be pointless. As long as he doesn't have any friends/family as potential targets, it seems like the whole secret ID thing is a moot point.

In the comics, Ollie currently runs a youth center in Star City I think. He also is very open with his secret ID I believe. Considering all of the people close to him are also superheroes I don't think he has to worry about them being potential targets.

I read the book, and I don't think he's that open. Maybe Star City is a haven for guys with that kind of beard.

On topic: Michael Rossenbaum? Michael Dorn? Ed Asner as Grannt Goodness? Can I get an "Apokolips Yeah"?!? The plot's simple enough...escape artist extrodinare Mr. Miracle and wife Big Barda try and free mentor/sidekick Oberon from the clutches of Granny Goodness. Only way to do that is by freeing Kalibak from the "care" of Virmin Vunderbaar. Flash tags along, since he's not doing much with the League, except playing "Brawlin' Bots" with Ralph Dibny.

I think the episode was slightly better than average, but Flash's absence in the JLU makes the heart grow fonder, and this episode much better. Of course, Miracle's escapes go unexplained, which kind of ticks me off. Also...they didn't go into Scott's history beyond his childhood on Apokolips. No matter...I still had a fun 22 minutes.

Absolutely grade A episode!

We got to see Flash back in action, as well as J'Onn!

Ed Asner as Granny Goodness is always great, if a bit creepy! And nice to hear Michael Dorn again as Kalibak.

One thing though, I thought Big Barda's voice didn't sound quite right. In my mind I always pictured Barda's voice as being deeper and huskier. She is a big woman after all.

I concur, Lantern. It was nice seeing the Scarlett Speedster in action as well as Big Bertha, I mean, Big Barda opening her boob, er, boom tube. When I heard "boob" I thought of something else besides tv.

I may date myself by saying this but Vermin's voice was done by Arte Johnson who was a performer on the 60's series "Laugh in" when he would usually dress up in some type of uniform and say "Very interesting" (from the historical clips I've seen). Total shout out by him saying that tonight.

I thought Mr. Fantastic did a pretty good MM.

ARRGH, I missed it, missed it!! Something in my mind just refuses to lock on to 7:30 PM Saturday nights as significant and recall that I'm supposed to be watching something on television. I keep running smack into that 8:15 PM moment of angry realization. :[

Why doesn't Toon Network rerun the episodes after 10pm or on Sunday afternoons anymore? :(

I like this episode, of course anything w/Apokolips as a background storyline interests me, that's why I can't wait for the subsquent volumes of STAS w/all the Darkseid episodes. Was great to see Flash back in action, even better that he snarked on our feelings by voicing the fact that he doesn't get any action and he was one of the "original 7."
When I first saw Barada I was like, why is Barada from BB here, I wanter her in her classic costume, and we got it, just later on in the episode. so is that her normal costume and the classic is just her battle armor, b/c the other looks like some skimpy swimsuit and that's all. Mr Miracle was great, liked the background stuff w/him.
Was glad to see Ed Asner and Michael Dorn reprising their respective roles. And we got a bonus besides Flash being front and center, some actua Jonn interaction and speaking and actually leaving the watchtower. Methinks the writers are reading our rants and trying to appease us diehard fans.

I didn't see all of this episode, but I did like what I saw. Also nice to know that the JLU Opening has decided on a set of spoiler-free opening credits.

I'll go ahead and date myself further by saying I saw Laugh In as a tiny child and can for some reason still remember it. It was a really quick cut show, with short sketches and jokes and stuff, all with a sort of cheesy trying but failing to be "with it" hippy/psychedelic theme (it was late '60's) and sometimes after a joke or sketch Arte would pop up from behind tall grass in a WWII German military uniform and say 'Verrrry interrrresting . . . but dumb!", and they would cut to something else. Yeah, humor was weird back then. I think Arte was also the guy who would dress up in a yellow rain coat and slowly drive a tricycle into something and fall over, which for some reason was funny. Still it was great that JLU would have him reference a punchline from about 35 years ago and see if anyone noticed.

Ed Asner as Granny Goodness is just so eternally funny that I hope future shows still reference it 35 years in the future.

Great to see Flash again, but dang, they just can't express his power in cartoon form I guess. He should have had this wrapped up solo a second after he boomtubed in. I hate to see him running along side others into battle, or behind them, as we actually saw.

I'm not a fan at all of the whole New Gods stuff, and Mr. Miracle is one I particularly don't like, but it was a good episode overall.

I also got the "Very Interesting.....but futile!" line which of course was a take-off of "Very Interesting...but stupid!".

Ah Joanne Whirley. Where have you gone??

So here's a question....was Barda voiced by Wonder Woman? The voices seemed similar to me.

Wow, I've really missed the Flash! It was so good to have him back. I love his snark. Let's hope we don't have to wait another year before he shows up again.

Barda was voiced by Farrah Forke, just as in BB.

And I think it was "Verrry interestink . . . but alsho stoooopid."

It pisses me off! They(Barda, Miracle, and the JLU) saying how useless The Flash is because he isn't invincible or have super strength is....sooo stooopid!

The fight scenes was good in the beginning but towards the end, why wasn't The Flash twirling those guys around and disposing of them quickly. Or dodging those lasers instead of Mr. Miracle?

Still, it was good to see The Flash again and I hope he stays! I missed him.

Yeah, this ep rocked. I missed Flash. It's great to see that his time away from us hasn't made him any less laid back or snarky. Oberon made me laugh out loud though. For his little screentime, he was a great character.

I got three of my favorites here, Flash (missed you bud) Big Barda (favorite New God) and old Mr. Miracle himself (he truly is fantastic). I am mad that JLU has not showed the Flash's other powers like in the comic. I mean not only can this guy run really fast, she can go so fast it's like people stop around him, he can absorb speed, lend it to others and can go so fast that it appears that Wally West and Flash are two different people even though they are stand right in front of people. I loved Arte Johnson as Virmin, loved the: "Very interesting... but futile." I cracked up for a while there. I just wish they put Grayven on this show, I mean he is Darkseid's other son, he be making a bid for the thrown too.

Just because he can do that in the comics doesn't mean he can do it on the show. Most of the animated characters are powered down compared to their comic counterparts.

Let's face it, if characters like Flash, Superman, and Wonder Woman used their powers correctly most fights on this show would be finished in a few seconds ... It's the same story in the comics ... Super-powered = Super-dumb. Heck, comic-Flash can move at (almost) the speed of light but still has problems beating normal guys who have boomerangs and Ice guns ...

I didn't think the episode was that great, I've never really cared for the new-Gods stuff, but it was nice to see Flash again.

(OT: That was what I loved about the Incredibles - actual superhero tactics.)

I figure that when flash is running alongside the group it's because he's slowing up to stay with the group. Even the Flash has to have learned by now that running out of range of your backup is a good way to get beaten on. And running circles around them to stay close would get annoying really fast.

Yeah, it's kind of like in The Incredibles, when Dash and Violet are running through the jungle, being chased by the guards in those hovering razor-disks. You know Dash can run way faster than that but he doesn't want to leave his sister behind.

Does anyone else think that that the scene with Kalibak in the prison being offered the chocolate cake was an Eddie Izzard "Cake or Death?" reference? Or is this some comic in-joke that completely passed over my head?

Oh, absolutely. "I had no idea we'd sell out! No, no, too late, you chose death!"

"You don't get to joke!"
"I took a bullet for you!"

Ooo Bruce is pissed.

Ok I understand why Supes didn't ask Diana for help, not wanting to put her at risk and stuff (though Superman and Wonder Woman combined would have much better odds at taking out Doomsday), but why didn't they call Diana immediately when they knew the missile was launched?
I could see if they tried and couldn't get through but they didn't even try [until Manhunter did much later]. Wouldn't it make sense rather that Batman having to take the risk that he did? I mean you've got the second most powerful league member and a whole bunch of others on the island who could intercept the missile.

Other than that I really liked this episode.

It might be because they were more concerned about evacuating the people off the island first and there were no other JLU members around except for Flash.

Diana said that the first wave was already in place and they would join them afterwards when they were meeting around the conference room table. Plus they showed Hawk. So there were more JLU members there that just Flash.

And yes, I agree that's the main reason why Superman didn't ask Diana for help, but still think they should have called her to try and stop the missile since, well, if they didn't stop the missile then the evacuation efforts would be for naught.

Well there were other JLU members around for a while, but it does look they probably left with the prior evacuation ships. Still, Flash, even with his immaturity, is probably the IDEAL person to get people out of a bad place real quick. Just so long as he didn't stop to get some girl's phone number.

I'm not too familiar with the Waller/Cadmus/Superman backstory, but I'm glad Bruce is thinking along those lines. Course with the new supersized JLU, the possibility of a Justice Lords future seems a bit less likely. I can see Batman going along with everyone in the alternate universe, but with the expanded JLU, there would be a lot more dissidents to tempt Bruce to a better path. Green Arrow is obvious, The Question probably wouldn't play along, Flash not too happy, and Batman knows where it all leads. There would likely be others. Granted, the likely resistance to the Justice Lords aren't the most powerful heroes, but it pays never to mess with Batman. Then there's Dr. Fate's crew, not sure which side they would adhere to.

Yes, it wasn't about Supes wanting to keep Diana out the fight, he just wanted her to keep working on evacuating the people from the island because that was a greater priority.

Frankly, I think Batman was a bit out of line when he questioned Superman's motives about putting Doomsday in the Phantom Zone.

The fact of the matter is Doomsday is fucking dangerous, and if there was a prison on Earth that could be guaranteed to hold him, that's where the authorities would have put him. So I don't see much difference in putting him in a prison on Earth or imprisoning him in the Phantom Zone. Doomsday would have been locked up in either case.

Good episode, great fight scene with Doomsday and Supes. The scene where Batman tells the group he put the Question on tracking the money trail is hilarious because of everyone's reaction. But really, when it comes to hunting down conspiracies, whom else are you going to call? That kind of stuff is the Question's forte.

The scenes with Amanda Waller and Batman were also good. And the Flash's line about the only way to make sure you all don't become the Justice Lords is to make sure; "I don't get killed" was a laugh-out-loud moment.

My only complaint is that Batman had to be the one to save the day...AGAIN! I really wish one of the other heroes could have done it.

Still, I did liked the episode alot. I can't wait to see what the Question turns up.

Poor Bats. I dunno what's worse...getting injured, having Superman make light of the prospect of becoming Justice Lords...or looking at Amanda Waller naked.

It was like Continuity Theater tonight. Wasn't Dr. Milo the guy who turned Anthony Romulus into a werewolf? Had to laugh when half of the Inner Circle groaned at the prospect of Question investigating things.

Nice that Doomsday got a semidecent, nonconvoluted backstory. However, if he's created from Superman's cells, doesn't that make him a hyper-Bizarro.

Getting tired of seeing heroes in the background. I did get a yukk out of Bats shoving Booster Gold and Vibe out of the way. Lameasses.

I was surprised that Hawkgirl was sitting in on the meeting with the rest of them. Last time we saw her, Wonder Woman was still being cold as hell to her.

I wonder if they will have Batman develop plans to take down the Justice League like he did in the comics. From the ending it looked like he might have been thinking of it.

So, the top guns at the JLU ignore Flash for a year or so, and all of a sudden, he's back at the grown-ups' table? And Shayera too? Yay! that they're there, but it seems a little quick.

I absolutely love the fact that this show doesn't even try to be PC. One of the reasons for nuking an island that is clearly in the Carribean or South America? To put an end to drug trafficking.

Nobody seemed too concerned about keeping Flash alive. Flash, take note, and watch your back.



That was hysterical. I know The Question and GA are going to be working together again, but it would be a lot of fun to see the core members having to "deal" with The Question.

I'm glad to see Bats so concerned about the JLU's future and their parallels with the Justice Lords--someone needs to be. And I agree that having other members now doesn't solve anything. They can be taken out.

Who were those two chicks in the background with the green and white hair? The worrisome looks on their faces and ponderous chins in hand was absolutely (unintentionally) hysterical.

The animation was a little wonky in spots, too. At the very end, Diana's eyes looked like they were bugging out of her head when she and Supes talked to Bats.

The tsunami was disturbing considering recent events.

I was going to comment on that but I think I was trying to repress that image as well.

Yes! Yes! Thank you. Lantern. That keep bugging me after I first saw him sitting at the table with the others.


Waller: I'll have Milo's hide for this.

Guard: Doomsday beat you to it.

Seriously. Especially since, technically, Doomsday is a Kryptonian, and Superman has used the Phantom Zone projector to take out his more psychotic brethren before. And also, he kept threatening to kill him. A restraining order isn't going to cut it.



I think he would at least make sure any kids got to safety first. The Flash loves kids.

I think we can count Shayera amongst those firmly against a Justice Lords plan. She betrayed her own people, she was so strongly opposed to world domination. (You'll notice she was mainly out of the picture during their encounter with the Alternate Earth counterparts.)

Those would be Fire (green hair) and Ice (white hair).

Dr. Hugo Strange was at the Cadmus conference...explains how they know Batman's secret identity. And Dr. Milo the guy who created the "Cat Scratch Fever" and the Werewolf. And Jonah Hex from the time travel ep; Batman TAS is becoming more and more the inspiration for the villains.

Luthor funding the Cadmus operations makes sense from the perspective of a presidential candidate. With such an increase in power, he has to fear the JL going after him the way they did in the Lords' universe. But Luthor has to have kryptonite stashed somewhere. He could at any time create a powerful-enough Doomsday-esque creature with a kryptonite weapon. Hell, he could just bring Metallo back. Metallo went toe to toe with Supes and came out on top many times.

the thing is with CADMUS: why are they struggling to create more unstable mutations? The Marvel Ultimate universe is littered with examples of government-Weapon X ripoffs gone-wrong. There are plenty of heroes and villains in the DCU. Take some of them and offer them the chance at redemption and to serve their country.

Batman: why was he so damn bitter at the end of the episode? He's usually been the voice of reason and stability and now he rants and raves about how the JL could become the Lords based on sloppy assumptions and emotional outbursts? What did he expect them to do with Doomsday? Let him loose? When did Batman lose such faith in his teammates' ability to know the right thing? Is he now in support of Cadmus?

and why were there no other JL members but the core team? With all the new faces around, the old without the new just doesn't feel like a progression.

I think he only agreed with Cadmus on the point about them potentially turning rogue. Other than that, yeah, a little out of character the way he lost his cool.

Pity the next set of new eps., including "Double Date", won't be coming until April.

I assumed Shayera and the original team were doing the discussions because they were the ones that became the Justice Lords. This episode brought to mind some questions I had after Starcrossed. Assuming the Justice Lords dimension was identical up until the death of Flash, that Shayera must have also been a sleeper planted to eventually help take over Earth. Knowing what we know now, she was probably just fine with the totalitarianism, but would she still have betrayed everyone? Would Thanagar have been able to conquer the world with a non-pacifist Superman around? And would Shayera have been executed for treason?

The reaction to The Question was very funny. Was Amanda Waller wearing a Kryptonite ring? It looked pretty identical to the one Luthor used to wear that 'killed' him in the comics.


Who? What? When?

I'm wondering how this Batman thing will play out, if they'll go with the comic book plot where he develops a way to immobilize all of them. The other thing I could see is his finally leaving the league. That was alluded to in BB's "The Call," that he wasn't a joiner.

How much pull does Warner have on the plotlines? Could they phase this Batman out so Conroy's TAS version is no longer a weekly reminder of how bad The Batman is?

Of course, I'd rather see the R'as Al Ghul steals Batman's files story played out.

This was a great episode for the new season, lots of new ways to go from this episode. Was great seeing the original 7 all together for the meeting, but Shayera's abscence from the Phantom Zone scene pissed me off b/c it shows they still don't trust her. I loved the Camdus inner circle, only person i didn't recognize was the woman, but it looks like we'll see more of her from the previews for upcoming weeks.
I'm surprised there has not been more comments about Superman's actions tonight, he was more than willing to try and lobotomize Doomsday for a second time, does this mean the boyscout might be rethinking his ways of action against the more dangerous threats? If this is the case I think Superman may be the big threat for this season, remember he was all for killing Darkseid in Twilight to the point of where even Bruce couldnt' change his mind. I'm just saying Camdus may be the easy threat for now, but i have a feeling that Superman is the major threat that no one sees coming. From the ending i'm guessing Waller and Bruce are going to start collaborating in secret to come up w/their own failsafe against the League and Superman in general.



In the BTAS episode, The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne, one of the better episodes. Psychiatrist Hugo Strange has a machine that reads peoples minds and creates videos of their memories w/images, to make a long story short. Bruce investigates and Strange reads his mind, finds out he's Batman, tries to sell the tape to Joker, Two-Face, & Penguin, whomever is highest bidder gets to know Batmans secret identity. Batman foils the plot and Strange is left looking like a fool but knowing Bruce is really Batman. This was great that the writers are using past plots and characters from BTAS & STAS. Makes all the series feel like a whole in general.

According to TV Tome, that was R'as Al Ghul's daughter.

See, I thought they said Talia, but that couldn't have been her. Talia is freaking hot and this person most definitely was not. There is no reason for the producers to re-imagine her for this series, from what I can tell if that was her, is that she is nothing like she used to be. Shame.

But can you really blame the guy? Darkseid murdered one of his friends, then brainwashed him and used him as a tool to invade earth. If anyone deserves Supes' ire, it'd be Big D.

What I'm really impressed with concerning this episode is that they made Amanda Waller out to be more of a sympathetic antagonist, since in the hands of lesser writers she might have just ended up as some run-of-the-mill evil government bully. I love how she blew her stack when she'd learned what the general had done.

And can you really blame the government for feeling a bit on edge? I mean, first they had Superman's betrayal (or apparent betrayal at least), then Hawkgirl's, and then they learn about the Justice Lords. That last little tidbit would definitely seal the deal on Cadmus. I'm just stating what everyone on this board already knows, but still, I like the way they're showing both sides of the issue.

As for Bruce flipping out: Yeah, they portrayed that a little bit over the top and I wish it had been more subtle, but I can see where he's coming from. He's most likely more sympathic to Waller and Cadmus because he doesn't posses any superpowers himself - he can better understand where they're coming from and relate. Plus, he can probably see himself going down the Justice Lords path very easily - didn't he even side with the alternate Batman for a brief time?

Great episode. I'm ready to see more of the Conspiracy.

I don't remember anyone at the Cadmus conference even remotely resembling Talia Head. Did they reinvent her?

Hopefully President Luthor will be taken down the way he was in the comics...seamlessly, in the Batman/Superman comic. Actually it's not clearly stated how he was overtaken, just that Ms. Head drained his resources and whatnot.

Yeah. IIRC, Justice Lords Batman was disturbed by the turn his comrades had taken as well. I think he helped the Justice League overthrow the Justice Lords. So, if history is going to repeat itself in this dimension, it would make sense that Batman would see the warning signs and birth pangs.



ITA. The woman has standards, and she'll draw the line. She's a villain who can be respected. I think Bruce does respect her, as someone upthread mentioned.

There were all sorts of neat stuff happening in this episodes EXCEPT for two big points that bugged the hell out of me.

1. Wonder Woman could've diverted the bomb. She's nearly, if not just as, strong as Superman. She could've done it easily. Also, I thought J'onn could link the JLA telepathically, so the whole radio signals on the fritz wouldn't be a problem. It was neat watching Batman take care of the bomb but unnecessary. The entire time, I was yelling, "Hey, how about sending WONDER WOMAN?"

2. Batman freaking out over sending Doomsday to the Phantom Zone. Uh...wtf? Superman didn't lobotimize Doomsday, so that's better than the Justice Lord Superman did. He didn't kill him, and he can't turn him over to the government because that's where Doomsday came from! It was interesting to watch Batman flip out and rant, but unjustified in this instance (pardon the pun).

Other than that, great episode. Really no new ones until April? Sorrow!