'ello. I'm a newbie to the Forsyte Saga discussion (love the posts). I've now seen episodes 1 and 2 (of the first series) (Started watching it because I've just discovered and fallen quite deeply for one Damian Lewis (thanks to BoB)) So my thoughts on it:

[start bashing] Young Jolyon and Helene- I hate em hate em hate em. Helene especially. She acts so indignant when she really doesn't have an excuse. When she's leaving the house just after Jolyon has left his family and Old Jolyon ignores her as he goes up the stairs her snooty "good day sir!" just had me muttering "bitch" I mean, yes, he did mention her being a servant and that she should leave the servants way, but his son had just left his wife and child and basically had left them in Old Jolyons hands. Do not be so worried about how your treated missie (and then she acts like she was just so right to "stand up for herself")

Another reason for my hating Helene came allot from the actress which had a little gnome who was sitting inside my head (also watching) shaking it's head saying "bizarre, just bizarre" to her acting.

Oh gosh and then when she has another pout fest and Jolyon stands up for his father saying that he bought all him paintings Helene is like "well that's not good enough". Again. Helene. Joylon. left. his. wife. and. child. and. yet. the. dad. still. supported. you two selfish imps secretly.

Young Jolyon managed to make me not hate him completely (like being kind to his dad when they reunite, and telling his dad to give all the money to his wife). Though that whole conversation when he shows Helene the newspaper that his wife has died
"she was your wife. THEY should have told you" (shut up Helene)
"oh (but forget her) now we can get married my love!" yeah kisses
Was I supposed to think this a sweet and beautiful moment, because I just wasn't feeling it. [/end bashing]

As for Soames, I feel a little over spoiler-ed because before I rented the series I had had a night of internet surfing reading a whole bunch of things about the series so anything Soames does or says- I'm just waiting for it. sigh. It takes a bit of the magic away for me when I know what someone is going to say or do. Soames heavy recaps (not a bad thing) I'm incredibly impressed w/ his acting. The whole time my brain was trying to connect him and Winters and it couldn't do it (granted, they are opposite characters in every way- but Damian does such a good job of making one BELIEVE the character and feel them) He's so deliciously creepy, but sad, lonely and yearning. I want to have him finger paint or blow soap bubbles w/ me.

The only other character that I felt for (amid all the selfish selfish people) was Young Jolyon's poor wife. Her anguished scream of "of course I desired you but how is one supposed to pursue one when they KNOW they are to be rejected!" broke my heart. I would have liked to see more of her.

I hope Soames says allot more f words (heh) in the series. The way Soames spit out flibbertigibbet and (London) frippery was just lovely.

Just to bring this topic back up to the top of the list again.
Let's see - I still don't like Irene - can't imagine what it is/was that was so attractive to all the men. I think Irene was a real piece of work - she managed to snag all the wealthy men who came near her - never wound up with a poor one did she? I don't like Soames either but for an instant or two I almost felt sorry for him - he wanted a child so badly. And he could so easily have been molded into a good husband by the right woman - he was so incredibly needy.

Also still hatin' on Irene, not fond of Joylon or June or even Phil. Like Winnifred and feel a strange bond/love for Soames. Can't wait to see series II.

Here's a review for The Forsyte Saga: To Let from TV guide:

A blurb, as befits my Damian Lewis-loving heart:

MSNBC has an article about Gina McKee and her upcoming projects, including a Hallmark movie this week with Angela Landsbury and Diane Wiest.

I came to this party very late. I missed the first run entirely and didn't catch the first installment of the second run, but I have been glued to the TV for the rest of the Forsythe saga.

I agree w/ most of the comments here. I have not read the book so I take the characters at their performance. I would say, I think Gina McKee is cast very well. As someone stated above, I just think the character of Irene is not all that likable, but I can see why Soames and Bossiney found her irresistable. She just struck me as incredibly British in terms of beauty and aloofness. I could see how men would flock to this beautiful but hardly attainable woman. She presents a challenge and the men who "possess" her seem to think they have accomplished something.

I couldn't stand Bossiney and that irritates me because I adore Ioane Griffudd. I know I'm going to hell but, when he died, I chuckled because everything they were about to do was so wrong on so many levels. There was an amusing irony in the wake of all that morbidity. What goes around comes around.

I too am solidly in the Damien Lewis love camp. All through the series (and I was unspoiled BTW), I kept thinking, (besides the rape) why is she treating him so poorly? What is so awful about Soames that she cannot be his wife on any level (as I said, I missed part 1 so there could have been some clues there)?

All of the characters are flawed and incredibly selfish and that's what makes it interesting. I like the cads like Dartie and Young Jolyon.

So far, I cannot stand any of the younger generation (young young Jolyon, Helene, Val Dartie etc). They simply haven't been drawn very well w/ respect to the other characters. We are thrown into this forbidden love between Val and Helene and I couldn't care less about either one of them.

Anyway, giddy w/ anticipation of The Forsythe Saga II.

One of the things that interests me is how Bossinney is not at all heroic. He repeatedly defies Soames's building restrictions without so much as a fare-thee-well, and then gets huffy when Somey calls him on it (even in the book). Yet, after he meets his Carriage of Doom, both June and Irene remember him as the bestest of fellows, full of nothing but fine qualities. Even the Jolyons think better of him than not.

It's kind of a brave choice, I think. Makes you wonder what Phil had goin' on that we didn't see.

For the past month, maybe a little bit longer, I've been distracted by one thought. . . this Soames character isn't so bad.

He should be, but he's not.

Sure, he's a corporate suit with a serious lack of social skills and imagination, but that's not enough of a reason to damn him to hell i.e .eternity spent in that Frank Llyod Wright-rip off reading the Arts And Leisure Section with Phil.

Aside from his brief turn as a super-stalker complete with psychotic coughing and nervous twitches, none of his faults were so totally grievous that they could not be solved with a weekend of non-stop (concentual) shagging.

It's probably just me, but Soames, even beside the holier-than-thou self-victimization of St. Irene, seems the most trapped and sympathetic.

Ironically, the posters on this board, myself included, seem so drawn to Soames for the same reason every man on the series seems uncontrollably drawn to Irene, the untapped passion beneath the cold reserve.

One more comment about the incredible Damien Lewis. I just melted when he picked up his daughter and flashed the one and only Soames toothy smile in the series. No words were said but the emotion just came flooding. Wonderful moment!!

ETA: No it's not just you softshoe456, I think your observation about Soames is quite right and astute (and not just because I agree w/ you). Though it is a prison of his own making, he is indeed in my opinion the most trapped and tragic of characters. In addition to the qualities you listed, I also thought his love for his father and sister, really his immediate family, were quite laudable and really underappreciated.

softshoe456, I think you got it, spot-on. This is why I thought Gina McKee was miscast as Irene. Whereas with an actor like Damian Lewis you can get that sense of passion trapped beneath a cold exterior, with her all I got was aloofness and dullness. Not exactly her fault as when you got it, you've got it (and when you don't, you just don't), but I think another actress cast could have been much better.

I definitely found Soames to be the most sympathetic (main) character and was puzzled as to why he was treated like so much shite by everyone else with the exception of Winnifred (and I've seen this series through at least twice with lots of repeated viewings of just-Damian parts).

attica finch, what you say about Phil I am on board with also. Sames goes for Irene, Young Joylon, and June (moreso with the first two). They seem to act holier-than-thou but they both do some unpleasant things (steal June's fiancee without much regards to her feelings; leaves first-wife for governess) and act as though they were forced into these positions or that they were the wronged ones. I think that's why I dislike both Irene and Young Joylon so much. Young Joylon left his wife for love, sure, but it wasn't as though he was forced to marry Frances, and then he just leaves his daughter too to start this new life. And Irene? June was her closest friend, and for that matter, with Soames--she could have married another. There was that older gentleman that seemed to want to propose and I'm sure she had other offers. How did it end up that she just settled upon him and then didn't even make any effort to try and like him?

The whole thing with Phil too as was mentioned. He kept going over budget and then acting outraged that Soames dare say anything about it. It especially irked me that Soames basically gave Phil the commission for the house at Robin Hill because he knew that Phil needed to make a certain amount of income before Old Joylon would let Phil and June get married. Then, in the end, both Phil and June end up hating Soames and blaming him for everything.

I mean, WHAT THE HELL? No wonder my sympathies ended up with Soames.

It is very interesting though how The Forsyte Saga was written. It's not so cut-and-dry who is "good" and who is "evil." Problematic in a way, but also more realistic, IMHO.

BTW: Since series II of the Forsyte Saga is airing for the first time in the U.S. next week, does this mean that potentially it could be nominated for award shows here, a la The Office?

Is there room on this thread for some discussion of Lucky Jim? Or should I wait until the Forsytes have finished their saga?

I heard some time ago that ExxonMobil was withdrawing its sponsorship of MT either this year or next. Does anyone know if PBS has found another sponsor? I would hate to lose my MT!

There is a few days before FS2 starts, if you want to engage in some Lucky Jim talk:) I really liked it and it was nice seeing Stephen Tompkinson in a lets say, happier role. And, while it was great on its own, as a bonus, I thought it was a great adaptation of the book.

As of last week, not yet. But the PBS poohbahs are still being publicly confident that they will either find another pair of deep pockets, or figure out another way of funding the series.

And yay, Lucky Jim! We get the always adorable ST, a fresh dose of Rick Warden (aww, my sweet Harry Welsh from BoB), and a different turn from Keely Hawes than we Spooks/MI-5 fans are used to. Yay!

Did you see Wives and Daughters? Keely Hawes was also in that.

I'm sure I did, but have no memory of it. Which is sad. Someday if I catch it again, I'll be all 'gosh, this looks familiar.'

Braincells, boy, I dunno.

Keeley Hawes is in everything BBC...also Our Mutual Friend...a great adaptation of Dickens' last novel. She was exquisite as Lizzie Hexam.
And damn, I missed Lucky Jim! KCET in L.A. didn't air it!

I'm sure that MT will show it again - since it is only one part its probably a good one to show between the longer running series.

I think MT has run Lucky Jim twice already. You might be able to find it on DVD.

Those of you who liked Lucky Jim, what did you think of "Take a Girl Like You," which ran a couple of years ago and was also based on a Kingsley Amis story? I thought Rupert Graves (Young Jolyon in Forsyte Saga) was excellent in it.

choochi Thanks...I'll hunt for it on dvd. According to the PBS MT schedule, Lucky Jim is nowhere to be found...at least through April, so I'll give the dvd-video a look-see. They will be running all the Prime Suspects again.

As for Wives and Daughters: still one of the best series ever on MT, beautifully done, charming, funny, and not as cloying as I'd feared. They really did a swell job of adapting the book. attica finch to jog your fading memory, Hawes played Cynthia with a charming tongue in cheek and just the right amount of pathos to make you realize how much damage being raised by a clueless mum can do.

I really liked the Forsyte Saga. I really sympathized with June, and thought she gave a lovely performance, as did the actress who played her younger sister (I forget her name). I agree that Gina McKee was horribly miscast. I'm looking forward to the sequel, though.

Was the Cazalets Masterpiece Theatre? I enjoyed that, too.

It will be great seeing PSI again - a chance to see Ralph Fiennes about two years before he became famous (well, one could say the buzz started with him with Schindler's List in 1993). I watched it during the orginal showing - it will be interesting to see who he was because I can't remember. But who knew?

I loved Wives and Daughters. I taped it at work on BBCAmerica (they showed it before it was on MT) watched Part 1 at home then ran all over town to try to find the book. I found at the last place I looked -- across the street from my house at the Library.

I enjoyed Wives and Daughters. Didn't see Lucky Jim. I was wondering what everyone thought of the Bramwell series w/ Jemma Redgrave. I really enjoyed it, especially the last scene where Eleanor and Guy Quarrie are going to get married. There is a look on both of their faces so full of both love and uncertainty, it a well captured moment.

I've only gotten to see Lucky Jim once (saving it for a treat when I finally finish this damn dissertation), but I was on the floor whenever the repulsive Bertrand was onscreen. I was surprised to find myself liking Keeley Hawes, who I thought was all wrong as Charlotte Ellison in The Cater Street Hangman. This was a great film - a romp with real sweetness.

NY Times review of FS 2. Stiff Upper Lips Set to a Jazz Age Beat

Oh my God kunju! I remember watching Cater Street Hangman with a group of reading buddies who love Anne Perry. We all thought the casting of Pitt and Ellison was absolutely perfect. I never realized it was Keeley Hawes! The only thing I didn't like about the movie was the change in the ending....the motivation for the killing spree got re-jiggered...networks got scared I guess. But the two leads were superb. (I do remember the fellow playing the butler was awful.)

To be fair, I can't remember if I disliked the actress or the way the role of Charlotte was written. It could have been the latter. And yeah, what was up with that ending?

Nice episode of Forsyte Series 2 last night. Some random thoughts:

Soames still looks like he needs an enema, but there is no way Damien Lewis looks like he is in his 60s or close to it (which is what I assume Soames would be in this series). He looked particularly fit in the straw hat outfit. And I loved his hypocrite speech to Old Young Jolyon.

As for our young couple, Fleur wasn't as annoying as I expected her to be and Jon looks like he could be the Harry Potter kid's older brother or perhaps Eric Stolz's son.

Did anyone think it was strange that Jon's real name is Jolyon? OYJ's first son, Jolly, was Jolyon. Although Jolly was killed before Jon was born, it's still strange to use the same name.

The actor who plays Dartie is doing a good job playing the dissipated old guy who never changes. It was also good to see George. I really like their subtle comic relief, like when they were trying to avoid Hester's birthday party until they saw June and Jon arrive.

I was totally shocked when I looked up how old Soames, Jolyon, etc., were supposed to be at this point. None of them look it at all. (Soames was born 1855; Jolyon in 1847--making Soames 64 and Jolyon 72 in 1919.)

Loved Soames's hypocrite speech. I don't know whether he's being portrayed more sympathetically or whether it's my love of Damian Lewis from watching Band of Brothers, but I'm liking Soames more this time around. I mean, he was dancing with Winifred! It was adorable!

And I'm liking Michael Mont. He's a cutie.

My roommate and I spent much of the first half hour or so just trying to remember who everyone was. That's what we get for not rewatching the first one!

And one of the nicest people in the book. Susan Hampshire, who played Fleur in the 1969 series, said that she always felt that Jon was too weak and spoiled a character for Fleur and that she had a far better chance of being really happy with Michael in the long run.

The 1969 series boasted two of the most memorable female performances in TV history: Nyree Dawn Porter as Irene and Susan Hampshire as Fleur. They're really impossible to beat, although Gina McKee is so bad.

Has anyone seen the 1949 MGM movie That Forsyte Woman starring Greer Garson as Irene, Walter Pidgeon as Jo and Errol Flynn (talk about miscasting!) as Soames? Slick, glossy, big-studio-era production with little subtlety but Garson doesn't come off as badly as McKee. While she's about twenty years too old for the part, she manages to capture Irene's winsome charm and makes her effect on the men around her understandable. Not as good as Porter in 1969, though. Interestingly, in the 1949 movie, her name is pronounced "Eye-reen" rather than "Eye-ree-nie" as it was in both TV series.

Since I never finished watching FS1, I watched the entire thing over the weekend. Hee, I actually seem to have stopped watching after my future boyfriend (Ioan Gruffudd) was killed. I do have to say that I thought Ben Miles did an amazing job - even though I know its the same actor that plays Patrick on Coupling, I still can't quite believe its the same guy.

Though, having a copy of the book makes for easy cheating. There is a family tree so I can see what happens with characters really quickly. I still haven't read it though - its a bit big to carry back and forth to work.

DRAT! I taped FSII last night but I only had it tape for one hour instead of two so I missed the second half and therefore Soames and his new wardrobe and this hypocrite speech. Did Soames give Old Young Joylon the what for? Could someone give me a recap please? I'm definitely going to have to buy this DVD when it comes out on Feb. 27th just to catch up, and I might as well continuing building up my collection of Damian Lewis films. Heh.

Hooted all night at poor constipated Soames. Still, I'd give anything to jitterbug with him. After that, we'd dance. ;)

I thought the kid playing Jon had a Jude-Law-as-Dickie-Greenleaf thing going on, only less blond.

Didn't like the soundtrack mixing. The music itself was nice, but it seemed to be laid over the dialogue much too loudly. Or maybe that was me.

I continue to love Amanda Root as Winifred. (She hasn't aged at all either!) She and Ben Miles are perfectly matched and have great chemistry.

I laughed so hard at the beginning of the episode when Soames is stalking over to a young, muddied Fleur and looks as though he does indeed have a stick up his ass. Oh, Damian! Hee. I do love Happy Daddy Soames. It's good to see him mellowed a little bit, and that he loves someone who loves him back. Aw.

After Soames I love me some Winnifred and Dartie. I agree that they have a nice chemistry. I'm liking June a little more too. I actually was ready to like her a lot at first until she ripped into Soames at the art gallery after he made some snide comment about her losing money on it. While provolked, I thought that June shouldn't have stooped to that level, especially considering, IMO, what was some high and mightiness on her part earlier on in that relationship. That or I'm just so violently biased in favor of Soames that my mind's already made up.

Now for the superficial portion of he proceedings:

Jon's face looks like Elijah Wood's, although elongated and without the huge hobbit eyes. Holly looks like Alex Kingston. And Irene with the "modern" haircut when she's dancing the Charleston? Fugly.

OYJ went to see Soames to head off the Fleur/Jon relationship. Before agreeing the relationship was a bad idea, Soames listed OYJ's past romantic misdeeds and pointed out what a hypocrite OYJ is for interfering in someone else's affairs. It was a fine Soames moment and I have never particularly liked OYJ, even though I do like Rupert Graves.

BTW, Emma Griffiths-Malin (Fleur) also played Louise in The Cazalets. I knew I had seen her before. She was the Cazalet daughter whose father made a pass at her. Ick!

I was surprised at how much more I'm liking the second series than the first one. I'm chalking it up to less Irene screentime and a happier Soames (another Band of Brothers fan here).

While the actors may not look like they're in their 60's/70's, I think the makeup is actually very natural-looking. The actors definitely look older, but the makeup is not as obvious/crappy as, for example A Beautiful Mind, where the production went for extreme aging.

This is exactly what I thought. I mean, it looked like he literally had a stick up his ass.

I also have the book, and made it about a third of the way through (to just after Bosinney's death). I've stalled out. But I found the family tree very helpful last night.

My thoughts exactly, choochi.

I'm so glad that Emma Griffiths Malin didn't play Fleur exactly the way she'd played Louise Cazalet, a spoiled, rich daddy's girl. Although I though she and the guy who played Jon looked far too old to be teenagers, the whole young-lovers-from-feuding-families thing worked better with Holly Forsyte (who I agree looks very much like Alex Kingston) and Val Dartie (who, by the way, is my new boyfriend and I didn't remember him being that good-looking in the first one). I do like both of Jolyon's daughters, Holly and June. I wish we could have seen what happened to Imogen Dartie. I do have to say that I hardly think anyone looks as old as their character should 20 years later.

I haven't read the books, but I just checked the whole trilogy out today and had a peek at the family tree. I have to say, I was so rooting for Fleur and Jon that I was shocked to discover that they both marry someone else. I'm really mad I spoiled myself and I hope it has a decent, sensible, non-tragic ending and reasoning for why they don't end up together.

Re your spoiler, Teenybopper, don't feel bad. It all works out for the best, even if its not a classic Hollywood "happy ending".

I don't either. I think it's the moustache. Also, I think Gina McKee in her Older Irene makeup looks like Virginia Woolf. (And that's not a good thing.)

Damian Lewis is just brilliant as Soames - all that repressed fury escaping through the twitches and snorts! From an actor without Lewis' skill it would come across as over acting but Lewis knows just where to draw the line. As for the ladies - good grief those 20's hairdos were hideous! And Soames would have looked more the right age if they'd put some gray in his hair - the slower walk and glasses just weren't enough. As for the younger generation, I'm not caring anything at all for Fleur and John. Soames can't live forever and I can't imagine them ever carrying a followup series.

Well, there really can't be another series--Forstye Saga II, as it were, is made from "To Let," which is the end of the trilogy that Galsworthy wrote. The first series was from the first two in the Forsyte trilogy: "A Man of Property" and "In Chancery."

I wondered where I'd seen her before! Thanks for reminding me.

Typing of Emma G-M, I was impressed by the subtleties of her characterization. I became more evident as the first installment progressed that she'd studied not only the character of Soames as Dad, but also how Soames is portrayed by Damian Lewis. It was amazing to *see* her thought processes as Fleur be so similar to young Soames from the first series. I hated and adored her simultaneously, much as I feel about Soames.

I've got to get the books. Soonest.

SpringBarb, that's true, but Galsworthy did write a second trilogy, called I think A Modern Comedy, about the family, mainly Fluer, after the events of To Let. It ends with the death of Soames, after he saves Fluer from a fire. So, concievably, there could be a third series, but I heard that they don't want to do it.

Word! He makes me believe that those tics and snorts and ramrod-straight strides are just part of who Soames is, that it isn't some overexaggerated characterization because he knows when to hold it back in. Damian Lewis as Soames is, IMHO, a master at playing repressed but with intense, burning passions beneath it all. I think any other actor in the role would not have been able to make me sympathize or care about Soames at all.

And as per Bowie's spoilage on A Modern Comedy, AWW! Soames loves his baby girl! And he dies for her! What a daddy. Dammit, this just makes me love the rogue even more.

One more comment: So apparently Old Young Jolyon is supposed to be around 72 in "To Let" whereas Soames is around 64, right? I have to say they didn't do so hot on Rupert Graves' make-up because he looks even younger than Soames does. He looks about June's age, actually. As for graying Soames' hair: You can't stop the ginger! You just can't. [/squee] Heh.

I'm going to have to bake a batch of Gingersnaps for next week's installment. I'll have to, I say!

Thanks to the posters who pegged Holly as Alex Kingston 2.0. It was killing me to call to mind who she looked like.

Well, I'm finally on the bandwagon for Gina McKee is a terrible Irene. She didn't so much bug me in the first series, but in this one she's just terrible. She does miserable well IMO, unfortunately for the actress, Irene's fortunes have turned and she's supposed to be happy!!!. McKee plays everything the same monotone manner. She always seems labored and put upon. She's supposed to be doing a "joi de vie" and she just doesn't appear to have the range.

Loved Dartie and George (a tall person's Frasier).

Not sure if I'm supposed to, but I like Annette. The actress portrays her with just the right amount of contention. You can tell she is repressed and cowed but is full of life and mischief. I know Annette is bored and tired of being controlled but surely she could have found a more compelling person with which to cheat on Soames. I didn't like (his name escapes me) at all. Winifred sure knows how to pick em doesn't she? He isn't as handsome as Dartie but he is a Dartie in every other way except that he is much more coldly manipulative and apparently more in control of himself (where money is concerned).

I am ambivalent about Jon and Fleur but like others here, I liked her much more than I expected to. I also really liked Mont. IMO its no contest between him and Jon. Mont wins hands down.

Totally agree w/ the aging make-up thing. No one ages in appearance except June. A question for those who have read the books: Does June ever marry or was Bossinney her only love? She must be pushing 40 by this series at least.

Thanks, Bowie! I didn't know that. Though my Forsyte family tree does tell me the year that Soames dies.

I didn't think they effectively aged June, either. She looks essentially the same to me as she did in the first one. Again, according to my Forsyte family tree, she does not get married. I wish we could find out something about her love life. Anything.

How selfish of her - how else is Irene supposed to find husband #3 if June doesn't ever marry :-) Of course, June could just date someone and Irene can take it from there.

Love this series, but, what is unbelievable to me is how all these men keep falling in love with Irene as played by Gina McKee. She plays her as such a cold fish but yet the male characters fall madly and passionately in love with her. Why? Damian Lewis as Soames is absolutely brilliant! Can he be nominated for an Emmy as Best Actor for this role or, is this program, an import, ineligible for nomination?

I am a huge fan of the books and the original miniseries, and have come to appreciate certain things about the new version, particularly some of the acting.

Galsworthy once said in an interview that he had started "Man of Property" with Soames in his mind as the villain but by the time he finished writing the second trilogy he had emerged as the true hero of the whole thing. I think Galsworthy was at least a couple of books behind the times - it's hard not to feel for Soames throughout, and by the end of "To Let"... you've almost got to love him.

I do hope they film the second trilogy. It brings the whole story to a proper conclusion.

June devotes herself to sponsoring bad artists and taking 'lame ducks' under her wing. The books imply that some of them offer her a sex life, but this is never stated and anyway, none of the lame ducks turn out very well... June maintains an eccentric, plucky sort of dignity.