Disclaimer: None of this is spoilery; most of it is from a hypothetical situation posted in the "Spoiler" thread.

From the "Spoiler" thread, Leaping Lucas wrote:


Ah. My post was in response to your hypothetical situation. I meant that Clark could suffer worse consequences in that scenario than Lex. All hypothetical of course.



True, there haven't been any major consequences for Clark so far on the show, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be. And that's the standpoint Clark and his parents are seeing things from.

I don't read the comics, so I don't really know what happens in Clark's future. But just judging from human nature, it's not irrational that the Kents fear people knowing about their son and would want to be secretive of Clark's origins.



Oh ok. I was assuming that by "life and death situation" you just meant Actual death. Yes, I'd agree that for Lex, that would be a fate worse than death. Regardless, in the hypothetical situation you proposed, I don't think that it would be a life or death situation for him if he were to reveal any information to exonerate Clark.



My post was solely in response to your hypothetical situation. I don't actually believe that Clark has more to lose than Lex. Since they're portrayed with so many comparisons (and later, end up as antitheses for each other), I view them as equals. For now, anyway. After Lex goes to the dark side, I don't know that I could justify defending him, and say that he doesn't deserve whatever he gets. I guess that will depend on what kind of man he is then, and how much he has changed. Regardless, when it happens, I will weep for the man Lex was in Smallville and the man he could have been.

Jaded. Thanks for the explanation. I pretty much agree with you there. Although in the way they seem to be taking away all Lex's choices, I think even as a cackling, eeevil villain they may well succeed in making him hugely sympathetic.

I accidently continued to post in the Spoiler thread, but I'm moving it here. There ain't nuthin' happening here at work!

kwerkee


But that kind of puts a different spin on the Smallville history.

In the beginning Lex was hell bent on investigating Clark. He came up with proof, went to Clark with it, professed his loyalty and asked to be trusted. Clark asked Lex to let it go. Lex then saw contradictory evidence and decided to leave it alone. And then -- he did. For a character like Lex, I thought it was a pretty big step. He vowed not to do any more investigating and to devote himself to protecting the Kents.

You've got to remember that when Lex began investigating the alien spacecraft, he didn't know what we did, that they were all interrelated. Inexorably, it led back to the Kents. Lex stole the blood, put it all under lock and key, and didn't do anything with it.

So when you say that if Lex was a true friend, he would leave Clark's affairs alone. Well, that's what he did. He can't UNKNOW things, but he did make every attempt to prevent others from knowing what he did. The exception is Helen, and both Martha and Lex were tempted into confiding in her unwisely.

Lex's recent investigations have been about Lex, not Clark. Lex's new theory was that HE is special. HE is the one with the ability to cheat death. So to ask Lex to stop trying to unravel that mystery is the same as asking Clark to stop looking into Kryptonian history.

Lex knows that his investigations have hurt, even killed other people. But he can't let it go.

Clark knows that his investigations have hurt, even killed other people. But he can't let it go.

Again, those scales, that balance. Neither character strikes me as deserving their fate, you can't deny them self-knowledge -- but one will always suffer for the other.

Euphony


Yes, but again, I wanted to say that Lex's interest in the day at the bridge and the alien mystery is not merely idle curiosity of the rich and famous. It is itensely personal.

If Clark had demonstrated that he has the ability to leave information alone when it could hurt others then we could say that this is a fault peculiar to Lex. But it's not. They have both used illegal means to gain information about things that are important to them.

I think I see the equation as much more of a delicate balance than most other posters.

Also carrying over from Spoiler thread, but no spoilers in my post.

As to whether or not Lex should stop investigating Clark, or whether Clark should tell him his secrets... We can look at it from a standpoint of more knowledge than either of these guys has. We know what Clark's secret is. We know it may be dangerous for Lex to know, either to him personally (as it was with Pete, held captive by Hamilton), or because he turns into the future villain. However, from Lex's standpoint, operating from the knowledge he has, he doesn't know this.

Lex's search started out as an almost spiritual quest (the flying he described in the Pilot), a search for the truth about what happened to him and why he lived. I do believe he dropped that quest after Leech, but only temporarily, when other incidents became too much to ignore. Either he started the investigation againb ecause he was trying to protect Clark from people like Nixon, or because the clues once again became too enticing to ignore (linking the spaceship key with Bo Kent's sudden agitation in the field where it was found). Or both.

I think the reason why Clark hasn't just dumped Lex as a friend or dismissed him as an obsessive freak is that he knows how weird his behavior must seem. He especially must know this after his summer in the city. He knows he's potentially dangerous and I don't think he'd hold it against Lex for at least being curious. I don't think he'd condone an investigation, either, but I think he'd understand it on some level. He knows that Lex was warned by the Cunning Linguist, who then ended up mysteriously fried. He knows he's lied badly to Lex. He knows he's even given Lex hints about his secrets (while high in Rush).

Now, this isn't to say that Clark should tell Lex. I don't feel that Lex would use his powers for his own good at this point. I feel that Lex at this point would still try to protect Clark. But Clark doesn't know this because he doesn't know everything we know. So it's really a sadly doomed situation for both of them, which makes for good drama.

I totally agree with this. I think that shattered may well end up being a turning point. Up to this point, I think Lex totally would have protected Clark, but now the situation is changed. I think their relationship will change, making their friendship more and more dangerous.

Moved from the Spoiler thread:

clarkenwell


But he didn't do that. If he had he would already know about Clark.



What about when Clark followed that kid around in "Visitor" because he thought he might be from Krypton as well. Sure, he offered the kid help against his tormentors, but isn't that what Lex offered Clark as well.

What about when Clark and Chloe used illegally obtained records to uncover the involvement of Lex's grandfather in the mugging of Louise. You can't argue that Clark got involved in that investigation to help Lana's uncle. He only got involved when he saw the sketch of Jor-El and the medallion in the paper.

That was Clark investigating something for Clark. Unfortunately it uncovered the information about Lachlan Luthor, which led Lex to investigate his grandparent's death, which led him to try to gather evidence against his father, which ended up with Lex straightjacketed in Belle Reve.

How, exactly, does Lex know that Clark isn't a danger? The only reason *I* know Clark isn't a mortal danger to Lex is because I know something of Superman's future and I know he didn't kill Lex Luthor.

Lex, not knowing the future, has seen Clark acting recklessly (Red and Rush) and knows he's been lied to but not why. He's been warned about Clark by someone who then ended up dead. Many people Clark's come in contact with have ended up dead. We the viewers know why, but Lex doesn't. I'm not saying Lex is (or should/shouldn't) investigating Clark because of the danger issue, but I can't really dismiss it either.

I've always wondered how much Lex knows about what happend in Red. Obviously he doesn't know about the red k, but what if anything did Lionel tell him about Clark shooting the gun? What about Clark shoving the pool table into that guy? Ah, loose ends!

Continued from the Spoilers thread:

Euphony wrote:


If he suspects that Clark's out to get him, then fine. Investigate him all he wants, he has a right to survive. The thing is, even though Clark lies, Lex is smart enough to know that Clark's not lying to hurt him. He KNOWS that Clark's not secretly out to get him or anything. Clark's lying for his own sake, to keep his own secrets. It's like when a guy cross-dresses or a girl who was once of a confused gender. It's not of anyone else's business to know, no matter how good of a friend you are.

From Omar's recap of 'Leech', when Lex badgers Clark to tell him the truth, Clark retorts back


leaping lucas

Spaceships, yes. Meteorites, yes. Caves, yes. But how do you explain him getting Martha's medical records and stealing the blood vial? He did it because it's related to the KENTs. He says it's because he's concerned about Martha's health. You could argue he knew that meteorites had somehow played a part in it. But the moment where the boundaries are being crossed.. I mean this is his best friend's mother. The rare person who always have been treating him right (excl. that 'Shattered' bit - everyone seems to agree it's a writer's glitch. Other than that, we love you, Mr Biller!!!) as opposed to the rest of the town.


We do not know for sure that Lex wouldn't have gotten the blood vial analyzed if it had not been for Helen's confrontation.

Cyb

This sums it up perfectly.

I don't think Lex necessarily knows that anymore. I think at first, when he said he would stop the investigation in Leech, he did know that. But everything in his life has led him to question and doubt more and more.

But there was no one tormenting Clark for his secret. Clark was never in trouble when Lex asked Clark to tell him all. The equivalent would have been Lionel's men lurking around.
This was also during S1 when Clark had just found out who was. He hadn't even processed it enough to tell anyone by Leech (this was the episode that Lex asked, right?)



Then this is different if Lex thinks that Clark is a danger to himself and everyone else. He should investigate him and it's a perfect excuse to go after Clark.
But I always thought that Lex considered Clark a friend and not someone who was dangerous.

Dr Walden certainly thought that Clark was dangerous and went after him. He told Lex but most importantly Lex never believed him. He thinks Clark's different somehow and interesting but never a danger. That's never been presented as one of Lex's motives in investigating clark.



Lana and Clark investigated something about her background with her full knowledge and during this investigation Clark found out something about his own background. They are both researching into their own backgrounds not anyone else and no one is being hurt other than Clark knowing something about his heritage.
Then they also came across information relating to Lex's background and they told him about it.

I still don't see how Clark hasn't let go thereby contributing to someone being hurt or dying.



Clark's researching into something relating to himself (this isn't a crime).
I'm sorry but Clark cannot be blamed for the slide of events from Lex getting that information about his grandparents to Belle Reve.
Lex made a conscious choice to investigate because he thought that Lionel was responsible and that would be a way to get rid of him. He knows how dangerous his father is (why else would he have taken all those precautions in Shattered) but he still went ahead but Lionel played him better and the result is Lex in an asylum.

Lex just underestimated what his father was capable of when he's threatened even from his own son.



That Clark's out to get him? If there's one thing Lex has always believed in it's that he can trust Clark despite all the lies, right up to Shattered.

Cyb wrote:


Lex doubts Clark? Wasn't Clark the first person he went to in 'Shattered'? Getting married to Helen, abandoned on an island for 3 months, getting drugged by his own people - I think Lex sees all this clearly and that Clark has got nothing to do with the tragedies.

Anyways, I'm looking forward post-Asylum. Will Lex still be a busybody?

Yes and yes. There's very little either/or with Lex. He's always been shown as capable of existing in two or more modes at once. He can love his father and want to bring him down. He can vow to never be a slave to passion again and desperately seek love. He can have faith in Clark on one level and doubt him on another. No, Clark didn't have anything to do with his other tragedies, but his ability to trust in general has been severely strained. Moreover, the events of the last two years (or his entire life if you want to look at it that way) has made him question his judgement in people.

What it comes down to is that neither of them, with the knowledge that they have, can really afford to just say "Screw it!" with regard to investigating and/or divulging secrets. Neither of them entirely trusts the other but need each other on a level that (at least so far) transcends that. I'm not talking about how I think things should be (I think they should just run off to Metropolis together and furnish their penthouse in FABulous style) but what I think is there right now. One of the few things I think the show has gotten down really well is how both of them are in this "damned if you do/damned if you don't" kind of balance, where neither of them (again, based on what they know) can really do anything differently than what they're doing.

Now this time last year I was definitely on the "Clark should just tell Lex the truth" train but things have gotten much more complicated. Thank goodness!

Just...word.

kwerkee wrote


I have to agree with Cyb in that Lex doesn't really know these things at all.

He WANTS to know them. He wants to have someone to trust. But everyone he's ever known has betrayed him (he's since found out and forgiven Pamela -- even though he swears to Clark he does not forgive and forget).

Lex's every instinct is to trust Clark but there is too much unknown and hidden about him. Too many conversations cut short. Too much involvement with the law and shady characters and things that should never concern a 16 year old Kansas farm boy. So Lex seeks independent validation.

Which is why I thought Lex's backdown in S1 was a huge leap for the character. He didn't understand what was going on with Clark. It didn't make sense. As much as he must have ached to keep trying to put the pieces in place he swore he'd let it go.

I hurt for him in Shattered (yes, Shattered again) when Edge calls Clark by a different name and obviously knows him. Lex is just, well, Shattered. Even if he hadn't been drugged and hurting, Lex would have been freaked at this information, because even with Clark, it's like he's waiting for the other shoe to drop -- for all the disparate pieces of information to fall into place and prove that once again he's been a fool to let his guard down and trust somebody.

With the exception of that period in S1 Lex always seeks independent validation. Given what I've been shown of his history, I can't really blame him for that. And given that Clark is always hiding something -- even though WE know it's something personal, what must it look like to a character like Lex, with a constant procession of friends who betrayed him.

I really hope Clark never joins these ranks -- and if he does ,even because of circumstances beyond his control, that he swears to spend the rest of his life looking out for Lex to make up for the fact that he couldn't be his lifeline when Lex needed one.

leaping lucas, I know what you are trying to say. That Lex wants confirmation he can trust Clark. But is it right that he went out of his way to burrow his nose into things that are none of his concerns?

OT: Damn!! RL issues.. My friend has been messaging me to hurry up and meet her already. So I would have to put any further debates on hold till tomorow, yea? You guys are really intelligent compared to some other SV boards and it has been fun. :D

Yes! This for me, sums up exactly how Lex views Clark and their relationship.

I can't really fault him for this either, knowing what we do about his relationship with his father and how he's been raised. The sympathecation (I like making up words) of Lex is one of the few things that I think AlMiles has accomplished pretty well/consistently throughout the show's run.



Hm... I think the way I see this is no, it's not right, but curiosity in and of itself is not a condemnable action. Just in the way that Chloe could have had no idea that researching Clark's adoption could be dangerous to him, I doubt that Lex has any concept of how much of a danger his investigation is to Clark. And unlike Chloe, Lex also has a personal interest in his investigation (which doesn't necessarily justify it, but does give him more of an excuse/reason to pursue it, IMO).

Well I kind of think it is his concern, if not after the bridge then after Clark brought him to the caves. But, the thing is, Lex doesn't really know whether it's none of his concern or not. Even if nothing about Clark had anything to do with Lex, Lex doesn't know that. From the things he's seen, he thinks it does have something to do with him.

Can you give some examples of this?

But Visitor proved that he never backed down. He said it to Clark but never went through with stopping the whole investigation. The Kents' are too interesting a family to let go.



I don't mind being curious about the caves, that's like public property. But Martha's info, the blood how is this his concern? How is this not a blatant invasion of privacy that has *nothing* to do with you. How was the collection of everything in that room anything to do with Lex? Nothing, just because they were an interesting family and he recgonised his own obsession, madness call it what you will in that episode.

I still want to know what happened to that room. All that info on Clark Kent at the mercy of anyone at the end of Exodus. Lionel probably has it but it's puzzling that it's never been mentioned again.



They researched him because they didn't know it would hurt him? Clark told Chloe to stop about the adoption in Zero but in Lineage she still went ahead and did it bringing Rachel Dunleavy to Smallville. The fight was all about Clark's frustration with people's inability to keep out in aomething that's not even causing him any harm

They all have this mentality that Clark wouldn't mind and anyway I know what's best.

You can be curious but to carry own investigation when the principal of your investgation told you to stop and he's supposed to be a friend?



Yes and he stepped to one side and allowed Edge to beat the crap out of Clark. Clark is rolling around and almost dying and it's let's watch to see what happens.



This all depends in what happens in Asylum. Read the WB's official description of Asylum.

Besides what happened on the bridge, I don't see why any of this should concern Lex. What differance did the caves really make to him? Or even what happened with professor Hamilton? It's just his curiosity. He's so curious about Clark and everything that seems to be linked to him, but none of it is really his concern. I don't really see how he thinks it has something to do with him personally ? (if anyone can help me out with that, please do) I get the vibe that he's in it for gain. He knows something is going on, and he wants in on it, even if the only thing that comes of it in the end is that he satisfies his curiosity.

Lex can go investigate kryptonites and caves. The Kents and the meteor showers are not obviously connected thus his actions were non-shifty and quite justified, even if his purpose was just plain curiosity. In fact, in season1, I saw no reason why Lex had to do his research discreetly - the meteors were common knowledge and especially with a high number of FoTWs that turn up in SV, it provided legitimate reasons for scientific research.

It's the other stuff that bothers me. Cyb wrote:These are some of the things that Lex damn well know it's none of his concern.


-- Martha's medical records --
I'll quote screamin from the Spoiler thread:
WORD. His acquisition of her files is in violation of her rights.
------

-- The blood sample --
Quoting clarkenwell:
Lex's side of the story when he got her medical records was that he was concerned and wanted to help her. But AFTER Martha was cured, he had the gall to steal that blood sample. Although he never explain why he stole it, it's safe to assume that he thought it was Martha's blood. He wanted to see what's so unique in her blood that led to her sudden illness and miraculous recovery. There's no benevolence involved here.
------

-- The infamous CoCK --
Lex backed off from Clark's case in 'Leech'. Then when Nixon returned in 'Tempest', I respected him for at least trying to protect Clark. In 'Vortex', when he shot Nixon, it wasn't clear whether he did it to protect Pa Kent or his own ass. And then WHAM! The revelation of the CoCK. I was so damn surprised to see the animated reenactment that Nixon gave to him in 'Leech', was part of his collection. Wouldn't it be discarded in 'Leech' when he supposedly swore off Clark's case? As if curiosity about Clark isn't enough, why did Lex have to probe into his family too? It's none of his business right there.
------

Then there's Lex sending private investigators to spy on his own dad. But at least Lionel did spy on him (bugging Lex's office in 'Insurgence') and Lionel had tried to bring him down, thus reasons for Lex to be wary of his father.

When Lex caught Helen with Lionel, he had every right to be wary of her too. Thus, he checked up on her, finding out about the money that Lionel gave to her.

OTOH, Clark didn't deserve any of the probing. In Lex's POV, has Clark ever betrayed him? Showed any signs of ulterior motives other than a friendship?

Cyb pointed out:

Even though Clark did behave out of character('Red') and even rudely ('Rush'), but which teenager doesn't go through bouts of rebellion? Even his own parents thought Clark's change of behaviour in 'Red' was due to hormones.. because they didn't know about the RedK at first. There was no indication that Lex thought Clark's mood swings were other that.

Besides Helen, Lex has always been spot-on in judging people's characters. Carrie Castle, FoTW in 'Hug' ("I just don't like you"), Boobs McChesty, Helen's ex ("..frighteningly good judge of character"), etc. This leads me to believe that Lex is smart enough to see that after 3 long years, Clark has been the only one who's sincere towards him. He's got nothing on Clark. Secrets and lies be damned, he should just accept Clark as he is.

Mmmm. Okay, well here goes (how much stuff are you allowed to write here anyway?)

kwerkee


I guess my point is that I think from Lex's point of view, they are his concern. The day of the meteor shower affected Lex personally, physically, mentally. The day Clark rescued him from death gave him a second chance. So he devoted himself to repaying that debt. He's also a wealthy, intelligent, influential control freak and I think he likes to think of himself as Mr. Fixit when it comes to Clark's problems or the Kent's financial woes. Lex fancies himself as Clark's saviour in the same way he feels Clark was his saviour.

I can tell you there are times when I've gone behind my best friend's back to do something to protect them and have not let them know about it. Sometimes people are their own worst enemy. Does this make me potentially evil? There is such a thing as altruistic intervention -- even if the subject chooses to reject your help.

In the first season Lex's interest in Clark was all about finding out why he lived when he should have died. Then he dropped that, and pursued an interest in a spaceship sighting on the day of the meteor shower -- a day with very personal consequences for him -- especially as regarding his physiology. This led to an interest in what he suspected were more alien artifacts in the Kawatchi caves, writings in which Clark was also very interested.

During this time, Lex had developed an intense respect and admiration for Clark (as revealed by Ryan before he died). It seemed to Lex that Clark was also digging into information on the aliens and the caves, but was always lying about it. Why would Clark do that?

There were alien scorch marks on the Kent barn and Lex found his friend unconscious several times, seemingly affected by something in the caves, something that fried Dr. Linguist. Clark is now Lex's best friend and anything that hurts Clark or the Kents is also Lex's concern. Clark is an impressionable boy playing with something that is obviously dangerous to him and he won't tell Lex a thing about it. In the same way Lex went straight to Jonathan when Clark was acting crazy on RedK, Lex tries to protect Clark from Clark's worst excesses.

First Lex insisted that Clark have unfettered access to the caves. Then when it's revealed to be dangerous, Lex bans Clark from the caves. Then Lex offers that they can join forces and investigate the caves together. These don't seem to be the actions of a scheming opportunist, looking to milk Clark of all he's discovered.

When Lex steals the blood, it was because his fiancee to be is being all cagey about it. Again, another parallel involvement of Lex into the Kent's secrets. Sure Lex did try and lay himself bare to Helen, but knowing Lex, he must always have had in the back of his mind those pictures of Helen and Lionel and that transfer of money into her account. So here's Helen with some sort of fishy information to do with the Kents.

Was it just idle curiosity on Lex's part? Prior behavioral characteristics say 'no'. Knowing Lex, it was probably a complicated mixture of curiosity, subliminal distrust of Helen and some idea of protecting the Kents all rolled into one. The fact that he didn't rush straight out and have it analysed argues more for protection than curiosity, but we'll probably never know.

Apart from Lex's very personal interest in events on the day of the meteor shower, I think things that concern Clark and the Kents concern Lex. Not just because he's selfishly curious but because Clark is his best friend and Clark is always getting himself into trouble with dangerous things and dangerous people.

Lex also goes out of his way to do things for Clark that pay no dividend to Lex -- like helping with Lana or arranging for Whitney's tryout. It's not all about Lex and his curiosity. Not on the evidence, at least.

Edited leaping lucas already said it, only nicer.



I needed to add that Clark asked for Lex's help saving the caves. Because of Lex, the caves were saved as an historical landmark and he bought them for very little (compared to Lionel's price). In other words, he owned the caves therefore he had every right to investigate. He didn't know Clark's connection until Clark told him that he was hiding something in Rush.

There was nothing wrong with asking Dr. Hamilton to investigate the meteor shower. He was in the meteor shower, remember?

Once again, you're using future knowledge instead of what's going on in the show.



Actually, the only thing in the CoCK that bothered me was the big ass Tiger Beat poster of Clark. You just know he kisses it at night.

Anyway, the reenactment didn't bother me because I knew he didn't discard the evidence. Stopping the investigation and trashing the info are two different things. Other than the way Lex seemed to tie the Clark and the Kents to the freakishness, there's nothing in that room Clark doesn't know about. He knew Lex had the spaceship key at one point(Tempest). He knew Lex found the sheet of paper with his Kryptonian writing(Rosetta). He definitely knew about the Porsche(Hourglass).

clarkenwell asked of the CoCK


Because the Kents are important to him and that's his little shrine. If Clark is a God then that's where Lex goes to worship him. He studies the Book over and over again, trying to understand it a little better with every rereading, get closer to the real meaning.

Sure, it's obsessive and creepy, I just don't see it in the same sinister light as others. From Lex's perspective it's more a keepsake than an ongoing experiment. There's no evidence that Lex is flat chat having everything analysed. He just used to go in there and -- tried to find the meaning of life, the universe and everything. Which for Lex is all about Clark.

I don't find it any more creepy than Clark's telescope on Lana, which is definitely on the Ricter Scale of Creepiness. But I don't assume that Clark will someday want to hurt Lana just because he daily pried into her private life. He just wanted to be a part of her, feel close to her. This best aligns with the way I feel about Lex and his CoCK.

It's the tying of the Clark and the Kents to the what's in that room that's freaky, not the collection itself. The Porsche was his, he found the spaceship key in Obsurca, he found Clark's Kryptonian scribblings and asked him about them in Rosetta, he asked Clark about the caves and Clark told him basically to fuck off in Rush.



They weren't public property, they were Lex's property (at the time).



On a side note: I'm bowing out of this discussion because I have a strong suspicion that the person who started this great debate is a troll.

We have to look at Lex the character as he's been presented on the show and what he knows, not what we know. The Kents, in his worldview, are his concern. They're his wannabe family. They quite possibly have something to do with aliens (see below). He has sneaky even illegal ways of getting information on them yes and I never said he was a saint. But going with what Lex knows and what we've seen of him, then the things he does are his concern.


Betrayal isn't the only reason to investigate someone. It's the simplistic reason he looked into Helen's story and why he bugged his father's office. But his relationship with Clark (and the Kents) is extremely complex. Fear of betrayal may have something to do with it but his journey began as a personal one.

What we have are actually several different investigations which he couldn't have known beforehand would someday all tie together.

First, the investigation of Clark started out as intensely personal--finding out why he was alive and given a second chance. This I believe he temporarily dropped after Leech, despite other evidence that shows something strange is up with Clark.

The second investigation involves meteor rocks, which he started when he hired Hamilton. Lex's life was changed forver the day of the meteor shower. This also starts out as a personal quest.

Hamilton leads him into his third investigation about aliens when he finds the ship's key. Related to the alien investigation--but unknown to Lex at the time--Nixon kept up his end of the investigation. It was Nixon's perogative, he kept looking even after Lex told him to stop in Leech. Lex threatens Nixon--leave the Kents alone, they're in his protection. But Lex has to see what Nixon has--either because it might affect him or it might affect his wannabe family. Nixon also brings Lex to someone who claims he saw a UFO the day of the meteor shower--although Lex doesn't believe the pilot at the time, evidence ties it all back into the day Lex's life was changed forever. Lex tells Clark in S1's finale that no matter what happens, they're still friends.

Then in S2, Clark brings Lex to the caves. The language is not of this earth. Aliens again! Aliens possibly had something to do with the meteor shower, which changed Lex's life forever. Clark's intense interest, knowledge, and dodginess about the caves--and that napkin doodle in the Talon--show he's got something to do with the caves. Which had something to do with aliens. Which had something to do with the meteor shower. Which changed Lex's life--well, you know the rest. He also knows that the caves are dangerous. Walden got fried there. Chloe and Pete got infected there. He doesn't know that the people who made the caves meant no harm. If Clark has something to do with the caves, is he also potentially dangerous? Or will someone else think he's a danger, like Walden, and try to harm him?

From what Lex has been shown, from what he's seen, these things do seem to be his concern. But since I can't think of any other ways to try to separate what the characters know and what the viewers know, I'll just have to leave it at that.

Reading leapin lucas's post, it seems to me, that you think I don't think Lex is a 'good' guy. Correct me if I misunderstood your post. I'll have to give a brief of what I said in my posts in spoiler thread before.

I made it clear - Lex is a great friend. I went on to question Clark's not wanting to trust Lex when in Clark's POV, Lex has been nothing but good to him. I continued on to say that one of the main reasons Clark should tell Lex, was because Lex can protect him. There was never any need for Clark to tell Lex in the 1st season because there is no urgent threat. But now, with Lionel and even Morgan Edge closing in on him, it's best that Clark 'fess up to Lex. So, yes, I agree that Lex protects his friend.

Somehow the conversation evolved to whether or not Clark is comitting suicide (spoiler link). :D (If you don't mind spoilers, read the entire thread till the end. 'Subplots' include parenting and stalking. It makes an interesting read.)

Among other points, I agreed with lexualhealing that his character is grey. Meaning: He is a great friend, yes. But not a perfect friend (eg. Chloe). That's my *only* gripe about Lex - that he does not leave Clark's secrets alone.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that Lex could be great man but due to things beyond his control, he will spiral into the dark side.

I also see the parellel between Clark not telling Lex and vice versa.

If Lex thinks there's nothing wrong in getting Martha's files, blood sample and setting up the CoCK (which also investigates the Kent family, that has got nothing to do at the bridge), then there should be nothing wrong in him being upfront about it with Clark. I can understand him being apprehensive towards Pa Kent because he's unreasonable. But Clark? It just goes to show he knows that part of what he's doing is not right and feels a wee bit guilty.

Similarly, Clark's not telling Lex is because he felt guilty that the meteor shower resulted in Lex's loss of hair and countless FoTWs coming after him (including 1 FoTW terminator).

Okay, now I read that Lex checking up on the Kents is his way of loving Clark. I'll take that into consideration.

Newbie question: What's a troll? megan in spoiler thread also pointed it out

Basically, a shit starter.*g*

Got it. Thanks.

Since I'm the alleged "troll" let me clarify what I was saying, since I actually bowed out early to avoid the conversation devolving into a flame war. I wasn't trying to stir up trouble just to give an alternate view of Lex's behavior from someone who is a fan of the show, but is neither a strong fan of the Clark character nor the Lex character. (But will always hate the Pink.) I felt Clark was being blamed for behaving in a way (leaving Lex to be taken away to protect himself) that is perfectly normal and reasonable. Clark helped his friend as long as he could, but when it came down to staying and possibly being exposed or fleeing, he chose to save himself. I've often read Lex's horrible behavior excused as being concern for the Kents or a result of his own bad childhood, but never attributed to dark or sinister motives from Lex. And while I may be basing a lot of my suspicions of Lex on what I know he becomes later, that's where the character is going, so it's not unfounded. Lex is a Luthor, and the darkness lives inside of him.

Lex & Clark had no relationship prior to the accident. Lex was 22 and Clark was 15 at the time. Lex was also a headstrong, troublemaking Luthor. These are traits he will not lose just because he had a near death experience. They develop a friendship, but Lex is always investigating why he survived and who this kid is. To me, that reads as the friendship will always be less valuable to Lex than knowing the truth about Clark. If there's no development in the investigation, then Lex is a fabulous and helpful friend, but when he receives some kind of confirmation of his suspicions (not that Clark is an alien, but that he has somehow been affected by the weirdness of Smallville) the friendship becomes secondary to the "truth" and he being the one to find it. Maybe even the one to benefit from it. And that's how I saw Lex's lucid moment when he saw Clark get hit by the car in "Shattered". Not a "Eureka I'm not crazy" response because he never thought he was crazy. But as "I knew you were a freak all along."

People continue to keep secrets from those they love because they fear how that person will respond upon learning the secret. Clark has already tested the waters with Chloe and Lana, and Lana showed herself to be someone who couldn't accept Clark's secret. The same may be said of Lex. As long as Clark is the good samaritan that saved his life, Lex will continue to be Clark's friend, but what happens when he learns the truth about Clark's heroics that day? Can Clark know that Lex won't betray him? No. Can we know that Lex won't betray him? No. Lex's responses to all these "discoveries" are ambiguous and can be interpreted different ways.

Lex's obsession with the Kent's is stalkerism. Whether he feels he knows what's best for them, and thinks he's in a position to help them, he has no right to intercede when he is not asked for help. Their private and confidential records are not for him to peruse, even if he thinks he's going to help them. Jonathan and Martha are adults raising their teenaged son. If Lex has concerns about the way Clark is being raised, there's always HHS or Child Protective Services, not a private investigation. A stalker never admits to the damage he is causing, he only believes he loves the person he's stalking and he's only trying to help that person. But if it's against that person's wishes, or if that person doesn't even know about the "help" then it's wrong.

I started watching the show because of the relationship between Clark & Lex. Specifically because of Lex. But not because he was a great friend or the love of Clark's life or a wonderful person, but because at some point he will be none of those things. Literature (and the Bible) is littered with the dearest and most trusted friend betraying his "savior" and I have no doubt that the same will happen on Smallville. I just think Lex will be the one to betray Clark.

Again, I don't mean to stir anything up, just to give a different view of the show. I won't be continuing this, though. I just wanted to clarify what I posted. I only post sporadically, and usually to talk smack about Lana, which seems to be universal.

From a few pages back



After being drugged with something that left him disoriented and seemingly increase his paranoia AND after being subjected to a false scenario designed to increase his paranoia and make him question his sanity AND after hearing that Clark knew and worked with Edge under another name. If you're going to blame Lex for this behavior then you also have to accuse Jonathan of wanting to kill Clark and call Pete a potential murderer after what they did in Nicodemus or hold Clark responsible for ALL his behavior under Red K (not just returning the money he stole, but also paying for the repair of the ATM's that he broke -- those babies are not cheap!)

Thanks for clearing that up.



None of us are under the delusion that Lex doesn't have darkness. At least, I hope none of us are under that delusion. Taking Martha's records was wrong, wrong, wrong and I won't even try to fanwank an excuse for that. Having his father followed in Visage-weird. Bugging Lionel's office in Insurgence-fucked up. Blatantly lying to Clark about Hamilton in Nicodemus when he had no reason to be ashamed-annoying. Pretending he didn't know Nixon in Tempest and Vortex- I wanted to slap him. However, his investigation into the accident, meteor shower and the caves were and are his personal concerns.

I had completly forgotten about that. It makes more sense now. Thanks for the clear up :)

Well, I just want to say that I think this debate has been interesting and intellectually stimulating. I really admire the level of intelligence and courtesy here on TwoP; it's so seldom to find that in other public fora.

You guys rock.

kwerkee wrote

Honest kwerkee I'm only new here. I was bored at work 'cause there was nuthin' going on and was reading the TWOP Spoiler thread. I few statements jumped out at me because I had a much different perspective on them. I was responding to the statements, not the people. I haven't really had time to formulate any opinions about what individuals think.



Oh absolutely he feels guilty. Well, maybe guilty is the not quite the right word for Lex because in his right mind he does everything with an intimate knowledge of his character faults. He feels... aware of his weakness.

I loved his little speech to Helen about the CocK because it was so self-aware. He knows he's obsessed with the Kents. He knows Clark is his achilles heel. I don't imagine he would have taken so much sh*t from anyone else but Lex keeps coming back for whatever scraps he can get. Lionel was very perceptive when he accused Lex of trying to worm his way into the Kent family, saying that he didn't belong there -- but how sad is it that Lex keeps trying anyway?

Will you take me in because my father has disinherited me? Will you stand in for my parents at my wedding? Will you allow me to buy back your farm? Will you consider me as just part of the family? Will you save me because someone's trying to kill me and I think I might be going crazy. This isn't curiosity, it's raw ravenous need.

Anyway, I was responding to comments like: How was the collection of everything in that room anything to do with Lex? and is it right that he went out of his way to burrow his nose into things that are none of his concerns?

What myself and a few others were pointing out is how the items in that room represent more than idle curiosity to Lex. How personal they were.

1) The meteor shower and its consequences were very personal to Lex
2) Hence, the possibility of aliens landing during the meteor shower is personal to Lex
3) Clark is his best friend
4) the Kents are, as Cyb said, Lex's wannabe family
5) Lex wants to be considered worthy of knowing Clark's secrets. But Clark doesn't find him worthy, so this is the only way for Lex to try and understand Clark.
6) It's his shrine where he worships the Kents.

Obsessed, yes. Impersonal, detached curiosity, no. And yes, he feels uncomfortable about his obsession, because there are very many occasions where he's come clean with Clark about what he's seen and what he knows and Clark has absolutely shut him down. He's not keen to lose Clark that way. Clark is too special to him. It's the grist of a thousand fanfic stories.



LOL. You're right. It does sound funny distilled down like that.

I guess what I was trying to say that there are parallels for Lex's obsession being about love and infatuation both within and without the Smallville universe.

Some posters were horrified at the invasion of privacy Lex's shrine represented, but we saw Clark spy on Lana every day for two years.

When someone is infatuated by a celebrity in the media, or a particular television show, it is not uncommon for those fans to collect every bit of paraphernalia they can get about their obsession. They buy expensive props at convention auctions that the person has worn or touched or used. They paper their walls with blown-up images of their idol. It's quite a common human phenomenon, not always indicative of creepy, stalkerish behavior. It's just a way to feel close.

I imagine if Clark was able to really let Lex in, Lex would have no need for his shrine any more because he would have the real thing. But because Lex is Lex, he will not be denied, and so finds other means to satisfy his needs.

Mock my love for MR, whydontcha. Mock. It. *cries*

Seriously, this is a good point. I hadn't thought about it.

vallegirl wrote


That doesn't ring true for me, and here's why.

In Leech Lex had commissioned his investigation about Clark and proved his theory. So he went to Clark and confronted him with it and Clark held up the hammer and said, "hit, me. Hit me anywhere you like."

This was Lex's opportunity once and for all to see the truth first hand and with his own eyes. If the truth was more valuable to Lex than the friendship, he would have taken that hammer and had a swing at Clark, knowing it wouldn't hurt him.

But Lex said, "I don't want to hit you, Clark."

Why did he say that?

Because for Lex, it isn't about knowing, it's about being told.

But because Lex is Lex, if he's not found worthy of being told, he'll use all his resources to find out -- but as we have been shown over and over again so far, NOT at the expense of the friendship.

The above post really clears things up for me. I think that statment is incredibly true. That, while Lex is using the resources he has to figure out Clark's secret, what he's really itching for is to just be told. He really wants to be closer to the Kent's and have them put that trust in him. At this point at least, it's more about about acceptance than just knowing. Whoever posted that original thought (leapinglucas I think?) has some very good insight.

I totally agree with you, leapinglucas. I think the main reason that Lex keeps showing Clark the evidence he's gathered (the Porshe, the CoCK, etc.) is that it's his way of telling Clark "See, I know. I've figured most of it out myself, and I haven't turned you in or tried to hurt you. Now I just want you to trust me enough to confirm it." It's not about the information for him, it's about Clark as a person.

Remember in Shattered, he's like "I knew it all along." He's not really surprised at all. It's like you're pretty sure you can make a good shot with your bow & arrow but when you actually do hit the bulls=eye, you're like "YES!" Same freaking rush.

nice post vallegirl, just one thing -- lex was 21 when clark was 15, not 22.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mobiuskle...lein/80272.html

Just something I wrote about the Kents & their behavior.

That was a great article. Unfortunately I doubt that the writers give half as much thought to these topics as you do.

Very nice essay mobiusklein. Oh, and, word!

I like the thought that Lex wants to be told-- it really works in with his "something you want to tell me, Clark?" of the last two episodes.

Mobiusklein, that essay summed the contradictions of the Kents so nicely-- how they're at once model parents and the kind of people you can't wait to get away from.

Thanks for the comments. The good thing about the Kents is that they'd do anything for Clark. The bad thing about the Kents is that they'd do anything for him even if it hurts everybody else.

I was just thinking about the whole Chlionel deal that so many of us have been debating in various threads. I think PTB's desire to have every character on the show worship Lana has bitten them on the ass. They seem to be trying to write off Chloe's motivation as simple jealousy: She saw Clana together and went off on a wild feminine bender of revenge!

But here's why it won't work for me:

Chloe was never shown trying to keep Clana apart as a truly petty, jealous person would have done. Even in Chloe's letter in Fever, she seemed to accept that Clark's attentions were focused on Lana now, even as she hoped he would some day focus on her instead. In fact, in her zeal to join the I Love Lana Brigade, she invited the Pink Plague to live in her house. She could have just let Lana go off to Metropolis, getting her out of Clark's life, but she didn't. She then went on to talk up Lana to Clark more than once. In Witness, she told Clark Lana was stronger than he thought, and in another episode said Lana had more depths than he realized. "She stays up crying till 3 AM," she said. Knowing Clark's protective instincts when it comes to Lana, this was not the sales pitch of someone trying to drive them apart.

So suddenly we're supposed to buy that Chloe accepted Lionel's deal only because she saw Clana together. It seems like the standard fall-back when it comes to female characters. When the writers need to explain motivation they go for the simplest route: She's jealous (Chloe), or power-hungry (Carrie Kastle), or a gold-digger (Desiree and possibly Helen). Any previously built-up depths or possible motivations are swept away.

*sigh* this is so true. Cyb (as always) I agree with your entire post. Nothing that we previously knew about Chloe, or anything we've seen her do, would make the revenge motive fly. Like someone else on another thread brought out, I think she did it more because she felt really hurt than jealous. Actually, she pretty much said that that's why she did it. When she confronts Clark in the feild as he's heading to destroy the ship, she tells him that it's not the fact that he and Lana are together that's making her upset, but rather that she and Clark had just promised to be honest with each other, and he broke that promise by not caring enough about her feelings to let her know. She's feeling hurt and humiliated. In that scene Clark was obviously a little preoccupied, so again, he dosn't properly handle the situation, and she goes away spitting mad. That, to me, was the moment of weakness she was talking about. It was like the straw that broke the camel's back. She could only put up with so much of the same from him and to have this happen one more time was just one time too many. She no longer feels that loyalty to Clark, because now she's frustrated and thinks he has no respect or reguard for her feelings at all. As a result of that, she makes the deal with Lionel; based on hurt and frustration, not feelings of jealousy.

I'm not going to accept it. I don't care if they try to present Chloe as a petty, jealous little girl. She's not and it's as simple as that. These TPTB fuckers don't own the characters. We do. And it's incredibly annoying when they make characters do things that are inconsistent with what they've been doing all along, when they try to make us believe things are true just because they say so. How stupid do they think we are?

As I said in the Chloe thread, if she'd acted purely (or even mostly) out of jealousy, she would have gone to Lionel after seeing the Clana kiss. She didn't go to Lionel until after she confronted Clark about the lying and he pushed her away. We know why he pushed her, but she didn't.

I wish that in Whisper, after Clark said "after you saw me and Lana together", she would have said, "No, after you pushed me back to my car."

Do we know what, if anything, was the explanation given for the explosion at the Kent farm? We know Clark blew up the ship, but what was the "official" reason given?

They must think we're stupid enough to eventually join the LanaLove Brigade if they just keep beating us over the head with it. TPTB sacrifice all the interesting characters by making them act extremely OOC in order to make Lana and the Clana look good.