Although I see Maybelline's point, and I am not offended at all, I guess the point that I was trying to make is that there is not one pat reason why someone is habitually late. DP's opinion on the tardy mom fits my Aunt Peggy to a T- she never got along with my Grandmother, and would make sure that her family was at least an hour late to every family function Grandmother had at her house. All she succeeded in doing was pissing the rest of us off because we had to wait an extra hour to eat!

But having lived with my mom for 17 years, I have witnessed her tardiness first hand. Mom, God love her, is not an organized person. She will set a time to leave, but then have to feed the cats. She will then be walking out the door and realize the clothes have to be moved into the dryer. She then gets in the car and realizes she is low on gas. And we do enable her by saying, "That's just the way she is." and have never sat down with her and explained that the lateness really bugs. Normally, I will just make a snarky comment and move on. I guess the point can be made that she is still putting her own needs ahead of others, but I don't think it is conscious.

So I guess the point I am laboring to make is one that is made here everyday: contrary to DP's view, there is not one set answer to a problem, everybody's situation is different.

Don't they inject for migraines in the back of the neck? That's what I heard. No pain and no back of the neck wrinkles! How lucky can you get?

Botox paralyzes the muscles and Robin most certainly has had injections around her mouth which is most probably the reason she can't close it. The voice? omygod, just shut up!

ETA: If someone were an hour late to dinner at my house, they'd be an hour late for dinner. Dinner would be called leftovers. I have a friend like that and I just tell her that dinner is an hour earlier than what I tell everyone else. Seems to work.

borokat, I have a special question pour vous because you are pregnant with Lil' borokat. I am a childfree person, so perhaps I do not have a proper read on one particular situation yesterday.

Is it just me, or did the husband of the woman who wanted IVF seem utterly unenthused about the whole babymaking process? It just seemed to me that his heart wasn't in it. (I can understand not wanting to spend the money, by the way. I don't think that makes him a monster.)

In my experience, women speak with their mouths, men speak with their actions. I found it to be very telling that he went out and bought a car when she was chomping at the bit to have another round of IVF.

I believe that the husband may not really want to have children (which is perfectly okay), and is afraid to come clean with the wife; this is a HUGE issue that could destroy their marriage.

That being said, it was entirely inappropriate and 54 kinds of wrong for Shill to step in that way and treat them to more IVF. I got a creepy vibe from all of it. It seems to me that if you are going to bring a little life into this world, it's far too much of a miracle for both of the parents' hearts to not be totally into the process.

My mother-in-law is one of those habitually late people.

All family gatherings have 2 start times. The time she is told to arrive and the time everyone else is told to arrive. We all find it very rude and insensitive. What bothers me the most is that it does appear to be any kind of family gathering. She was on time to our wedding. She was on time to her mother-in-law's funeral. She was on time to all of her divorce court dates. She's on time for all of her chemo treatments. So basically, whenever it's clear that other people aren't going to wait for her, she can be on time (she's has always been on time when I've asked her to babysit even though I worry incessantly every time), but Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, birthdays, bbq's and so on and so forth, everyone has to wait for her to make her entrance.

Heh heh. I've always been so ashamed of how wrinkled the back of my neck is too! Actually, my doc says the injections would be made right into my temples, right at the source of the pain. So I guess I'd still be able to close my mouth, just maybe not my eyes?

maggiegault, I was supremely weirded out by that, too, but more by the wife's persistance to have a baby, by any means necessary. I think that there is a point when you have to admit that the baby ship has sailed, as sad as that might be. They had already tried for 5 years and had 2 treatments at 20 grand a pop- I would be really hesitant to throw another 20 grand into it, too. I think that the husband maybe was a little more practical and had decided that his wife birthing a baby might not be feasible.

BUT- what made me think that all was not right in yuppieville was that the husband had gone out and bought a a car without his wife's approval. I don't know about everyone else, but here is Casa de Borokat, we don't make 20,000 purchases unless it is an unanimous decision.

Yeah, there was some weird power issues going on with that couple. When she was listing off all the things she was willing to do to have a baby, she included "get a job." Now, there is nothing wrong with choosing to be a stay-at-home wife, if you and your husband agree and can afford it. But if you can't afford fertility treatments, and your husband is sweating about the car payments, and you really want a baby, why not be proactive and go get a job already? Work for a year, put all your earnings in a savings account, and use that money to pay for fertility treatments.

Maybe the husband could see that providing for two people on one income was difficult enough, without adding a baby. Not to mention he had, as has already been pointed out, invested $20,000 of his hard earned money and has nothing to show for it. What if he shells out another $20,000 and they still can't conceive? At what point does she have to face the fact that all the money in the world can't buy her a baby, if it's just not meant to be?

My husband are struggling with the fact that we can't afford to start a family yet. I turned to him yesterday as we watched the show together and said, "you know, I want a baby. But I don't know if I want to pay $40,000 for a baby." My husband's diagnosis was that she was unnaturally fixated on having a child, and would expect that child to fulfill her, make her whole, etc. That's a lot of pressure to put on a baby.

All in all, there were a lot of complicated issues that would have merited further exploration. But Dr. Phil put a big Band-Aid on it, and I guess we are all supposed to think he's a hero. Whatever.

Sigh....and here was a perfect opportunity for DP to talk about the pressures that women put on themselves to have children, but no, he shells out money for more fertility treatments. I was able to have a baby at 38, but I would have been okay if we were not able to have a baby. I came to grips with that a long time ago and decided that being childless was not the shrieking abyss that some women view it as.



Excellently put. (And there is a wealth of excellent posts on this board lately!) I think bringing home the car was a pretty clear signal that he was ready to pursue a different path. And IMO if she continues to pursue the baby train, he may not be going with her, even though they seemed close (holding hands) on the show.

Re: lateness: borokat, I think I'm married to your mom. Mr Hex just cannot seem to get out of the house, in the car, and on the road. Too many other things seem to happen between the time he's "ready" and we're moving.

Re: botox: (Hey, I said there were a lot of great posts). Y'all do realize that these are toxins, yes? I have migraines but I dunno....it wouldn't surprise me if 3-5 years down the road these folks start seeing some adverse effects.

I didn't see the show where the folks were spending all the money trying to concieve. Did anyone talk about the idea of adoption to them? I understand the desire to pass on your own genes and traits to a child of your "own" but in this day and age there's no shame in adopting and the child is no less "yours" than one that come out of your body. Adoption can be expensive but no more so than all the money they are spending trying to concieve. Plus, speaking as a mother who's wonderful, amazing son is spending the day with his grandma, adopting a child can be the most wonderful thing you will ever do.


I've thought of this too. I've had some real whoppers though. I've been hospitilized three times, each time for nearly a week so I' kind of weighing out my options right now.

You know, it's wonderful to be able to come here and have ALL points of view discussed. As a woman who is voluntarily forgoing having children, I was afraid to even open my mouth about this topic. Thanks, hexele and borokat, for being cool, providing your perspective, and not judging me.

Moving right along...

I really felt bad for the woman who was willing to do anything to get another round of IVF. Bless her heart. You could really see that she wants to be a mother above all else. I only hope that she isn't setting herself for more heartbreak, though; getting her hopes all up with this latest round of treatment, with a very real chance that it won't be successful. I can only imagine how devastating that could be.

Here is another thought: perhaps the husband didn't want to express how terrible "failing" at IVF makes him feel, so he masks his feelings with coming up with reasons as to why they "can't afford it." Maybe he thinks the price is too high, and not in the wallet sense.

Men are a lot more sensitive than we chicks give them credit for.

Where's Professor Soap? Not sure if he/she is a man or woman...but where is PS?

Mr. Maggie is one of those men who totally speak with their actions. He tells me that he loves me, the usual husbandy stuff...but it's when he brings me hot and sour soup from the Chinese restaurant across town because I have the flu and that's the only thing I feel like eating that I KNOW he loves me.

One more thing...both of us are childfree, which means childless by choice. It's a good thing, too. Believe me, this is the kind of thing that can positively DESTROY an otherwise good marriage. Both parties really need to be in total agreement.

Timeonmyhands-I hope you find some relief for your migraines soon! I read that Botox is pretty darn effective..

When Mr marillion and I were courting, we agreed that we wanted to have at least 2 kids, but wanted to have a better financial situation (less CC debt) before even trying. We worked our butts off for 1 1/2 years, paid down debt, and then started trying to conceive. First couple of months, no dice. So I tracked my cycle and told him, OK, we have to do it these three days in a row... he understood and agreed to the schedule. Then, the time would come and maybe one of those days he would be "tired". I was not happy, but didn't want to pressure him. So no baby that month. When it happened the next month, I had an utter meltdown-it seemed like he was deliberately screwing up my plans, sabotaging me. I screamed that feasibly he could divorce me, wait 40 years, and have kids ( we are 33 and 34). I did not have the luxury of waiting. And this was something we had utterly AGREED to; it wasn't just my agenda. We both wanted to be parents.
Anyway, a peace was established and now baby marillion is in the oven, due in July, and Mr mariliion couldn't be happier..

However that guy from yesterday seemed a bit passive aggressive; he seemed to siphon funds into a new car (bad investment ANYWAY) and away from their conception attempts.

Right on Maybelline
again, Maybelline

Timeonmyhands - IIRC adoption was only mentioned in that the fertility clinic Shill was sending them to had a money-back guarantee so if the treatments didn't work they could use the money they got back on adoption.

Call me crazy - and childfree and probably staying that way - but what is the big deal about birthin' babies - or rather why some couples are so strongly opposed to adoption? I can totally understand someone wanting a family. I can understand wanting to have a child to raise and be a mommy. What I don't comprehend is why do some people seem so adamant that only their own natural child will do. (Of course to me pregnancy doesn't seem like a picnic and I'm about as anxious to experience childbirth as the woman yesterday whose hubby wanted 8 kids - of course I'd never marry someone who wanted 8 kids.) Both my best friend and her hubby and my cousin and his wife were not able to have children and adopted and there is no way in hell that those kids are even a tiny bit less theirs than if they'd birthed them.

Re: Joe Bob and his Mama - I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. I could have sworn he said he worked for the family business, but then at one point Mama indicated she was going to stop supporting him. ICAM that if he's working for her and she's paying him, then he's actually earning his money not just mooching off his Mama.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, she has a muppet voice! A crazy awful muppet.

Many of my friends are childfree. I am thankful we live in a time when people have backed off a bit at pressuring their kids to have kids. My MIL confides in me that she wishes my SIL would have kids, but she doesn't ever tell that to my SIL!

So bravo to you guys for choosing childfree-you seem to have really thought things through...

Unlike some of DP's past guests. Remember that mom that wanted to keep pluggin' away at having kids, while her other THREE were telling her how neglected they felt? DP did something really effective- he told her to pretend that HE was her baby, and to tell him all she could give him once he was part of her family. She was at a loss for words...

Oh, this is kinda scary- when I was posting on a message board for people trying to get knocked up, I would frequently see posts bemoaning the costs of ovulation predictor kits and pregnancy tests!!! Puh-leeze! And you want to start raising a family..? Talk about NOT thinking things through...

Although I must add that my sister was born when my family was in dire financial straits, and my day said during that time coming home to her baby smile was one of the only bright spots in his day- thank God she was healthy!

These days, as I am close to the last stop on the baby train, I ask that myself! (smile) And I am sure that marillion can identify, too. Pregnancy is an interesting thing. Lil Borokat is currently using my belly as his own personal mosh pit, but I enjoy it. The experience of childbirth is not something I am necessarily looking forward to though. One interesting thing that I have read over and over again thru my pregnancy is that some women fixate on having a baby vaginally so much that when they have to have a Csection, they fall into a depression, or take out their disappointment at not experiencing the miracle of natural childbirth on the child! What?????? If he can make it from inside of my body to outside of my body with no serious complications, I am going to consider it a smashing success!

As fo Joe Bob and Jo (who wants to bet his dad is named Bob?)- all I could think about was her poor employees slaving away while dreading her next major meltdown. For her to be aware of her behavior and not care is downright childish.

[OT] Speaking as someone who has spawned, I have one thing to say about childbirth: Demerol worked for me! Minimal pain and no epidural.

I also figured that there was no point in being scared, since the baby is going to come out one way or another. Too bad the mother in the room next to me didn't know that. She was screaming her lungs out. [/OT]

Count me in on the "No-Medicine Dad is an asshole" train.

No way, maggie. Frankly I think more people ought to put a lot more thought into having or not having children, and our society should support the choice to forego motherhood without adding the subliminal footnote: "not a whole woman". Assinine.



I didn't "enjoy every minute of my pregnancy" like so many women told me they did. I had a birth plan but it went out the window with my emergency c-section. I was throwing up on the anesthesiologist while my baby was being born. It wasn't exactly a Kodak moment.



We weren't expecting the c-section, so we had to take some time after the birth and discuss the fact that we had no control, had been scared, had no time to prepare, and didn't get to enjoy the birth process. Once we discussed it, we were fine, but it was truly "traumatic" at a time when you are expecting "wonderful".

IMO, all women should settle in their mind that they might not have children. Or if they do, that they might not have a model pregnancy. And they just might end up having a c-section and get the big smily scar instead of "push push push". The cult of momism in this country tells you that if you have anything less than the perfect family experience, you fall short. Did I already use the word assinine?

Back on topic: Dr. Phil sucks.

Hexele, I am sure that was painful and scary and God bless you for going thru it! But some people apparently reject the babies afterwards as being inferior, if they had an emergency Csection. Apparently, it happens enough that our birth coach actually warned us about it! That just squicks me out!

Topic: I wonder why they don't show more of Jordan on the show. Maybe they are just biding their time until he can release the next book, "The Ultimate Weight Loss Solution for Kindergarteners."

"Hi Mom! Swimming is fun! Hooray for Mom! Watch me dance, Mom! Mom? Can you feel that?"

Lil' Borokat rocks.

Shill, on the other hand, does not. Here is another thing I thought of about the IVF show: where was a discussion of the ramifications of multiple births? Those are a real possibility when doing IVF, right? I won't get into the whole bit about selective reduction here, but what if Gottagetpregnant Wife conceives seven babies? You know that if she did, she'd keep them all. All of a sudden $20K seems like change you'd through into the Salvation Army tin at Christmas. Nothing Shill does anymore surprises me, but he has gotten downright irresponsible.

Whoa, those mothers today were crazy bitches. It's a control thing; these mommies keep control over their kids with money -- paying for rent, cars, dinners, etc.

timeonmyhands: this is probably a stupid question and/or something you've already thought of, but: have you tried going off sugar? It's done wonders for me.

(I know it's something Robin suggested on the show as well, but I assure you, for once, Robin coincidentally hit upon something right :) )

I've been married less than six months and have just found out (like, a couple of weeks ago) that it's going to be difficult if not impossible for me to have kids. Mr. bell and I have talked, and basically, we're going to see what happens (we're young, we have time) and if we get to the point that we want kids and don't have them, we'll adopt. No $20K fertility treatments for me.

But at the same time, I can feel that woman's heartbreak over not being able to be a "mother" (even if she can still adopt and be a mother without giving birth). It's hard to watch FUF1 because I've started hating Alex (more so than previously, I should say). Sure, I can't have children biologically, and I feel like I'm some sort of failure as a woman, and I struggle with it -- and then here's some stupid bitch too dumb to use condoms, and Look! Motherhood! She gets to sit on television with her baby on her lap while all her friends gush over how cyuuuuuuuute Nathan is.

(Bitter? Yes. Even more so since Mr. Bell's grandparents have mentioned, twice already, that they want great-grandkids Before They Die. No pressure.)


I feel a little like I'm "broken", like I'm not a "real" woman because I can't do one of the basic things that just about every woman CAN do at one point in her life (whether she chooses to or not).

Maybe these people are spending money frantically to try to pretend that they're not.

Again, I'm not defending it - I'm just saying that it might not be about My Child Must Have My Very Own Perfect Genes so much as, No, I CAN Have Kids! Really! Try That Injection Again! I'm Normal Dammit!


The cult of momism in this country (if you don't mind me borrowing your wonderful phrase) is I think also responsible for those SAHMs who think that career moms are negligent, evil woman. And for career moms having guilt over not being SAHMs.

Notice you never hear the term "career father" in this country.

Wouldn't it be nice and helpful if DP did a show about the pressures of the cult of momism, instead of dividing the audience into SAHMs and career moms and making them get into a petty catfight?

But then, apparently "nice" and "helpful" aren't part of DP's milieu.

(Like we didn't know that already.)

There is actually a couple of books about about 'momism' (I think they use that exact term). Can't think of the names at the moment, though, so that comment was ultimately pointless. :)


True. And I think it's part of a larger issue in our society. It's like, "Life should be these things (married, with perfect children, a huge, perfectly clean house, a hubby making a ton of money, a perfectly botoxed wife with absolutely no body fat, etc -- or whatever) and if you do not have these things, don't want them, or can't live up to it, then you are a FAILURE and a freak and there is clearly something wrong with you." I'm over-simplifying, but there really is a lot of expectation of everybody conforming and wanting one thing. Which is totally silly because there are a LOT of us and we're all different and that's what's cool about the human race. That's what makes life neat, not everybody being exactly the same.

I, too, am childfree. To tell you the truth, earlier in my life, I really didn't 'get' the whole wanting to have kids thing. It just seemed like work. Then, my SIL had my nephew and he's absolutely amazing and just the most wonderful thing. Still, a TON of work and worry, but there's that amazing little guy that makes it worth it. So, now, even though I still don't want children of my own, I totally understand why people do. Now, I look at him and think, "Oh, that's why people want kids!" :)

bellemmers:

I know where you're coming from on this since I too can't have children. If it makes you feel any better, we're not alone: "About 6.1 million women experienced impaired fecundity in 1995, compared with 4.9 million in 1988. The percent with impaired fecundity increased to 10.2% in 1995 from 8.4% in 1988. Some of this increase is due to the aging of the baby boom generation.(Fertility, Family Planning, and Women's Health, 1997)"



I don't think DP would ever do this because his target audience is the SAHMs who think working women are neglecting their children or are evil in some other way. If he did a show that supported working women or showcased the negatives of momism (love it!), his groupies would change the channel.

maggiegault

Word! :-)

LisaLyn, I used it shamelessly without attribution since I couldn't remember the book or the author. She was written up in Thurs' newspaper and I was ecstatic that someone is finally saying "the emperor has no clothes." I have jumped on the bandwagon with both feet and the baby.




SnowDog...huh...you put it that way it makes perfect sense. Now when I watch DP I'll watch for "pandering to momism" for more reasons to let this show get under my skin. I'm only keeping up with DP these days to see the impending crash.




That is fucked. up. Baby Hex is even more precious to me since the wild c-section ride and subsequent NICU stay.

I have felt the same way about a few things that I can't do...one of which was breastfeed my kids when I had planned everything out so neatly when I was pregnant with my first. And then to find out that the milk factory just didn't exist. I wasn't exactly traumatized, bottles are fine, but I did get that sense of "I don't work." Of course, you always get the questions like, "So you aren't breastfeeding him?" And then you have to say, "No, my boobs don't work." Yay. I know it's not the same thing as not being able to conceive, but just saying I've had similar thoughts. And if it makes anyone feel any better about adoption, my husband's side of the family are all adopted (dad, aunts), and they're a wonderful, sane, close family. His mom's side of the family are all crazy lunatics.

I'm a mom (who's had two uncomfortable pregnancies and two horrific labors/births), but I don't have a problem with women who don't want children. In fact, I'm really proud that I live in an age where women can decide not to have kids and it's okay. I'm so happy we aren't all forced to give up our own paths and have these decisions made for us. So, kudos to all of you, childless and mommies.

And...the IVF woman on Dr Phil doesn't have a job? Wtf. Does she need to stay home and look after the pet bird or what? If her husband makes tons of money, wonderful, but I'd think she'd need something to do during the day so she doesn't sit around watching "A Baby Story" and going slowly insane.

Thanks! I tend to think so. He definitely is a pill. The other night, Daddy Borokat put his head on my stomach to hear his heartbeat, and he kicked him in the head! That's my boy.

I also salute (why does Hee Haw pop in my head when I write that- SALUTE!) those of you that have made the conscious decision to not have rugrats. My biggest pet peeve are women who become mothers and lose every interesting quality that they possessed before the little bugger arrived- they start shopping in the misses section wearing sweater vests and khakis that are belted so high, they are practically around their ears, and they cease having any interests of their own. They are not WOMEN, they are MOTHERS. That was one of the things that freaked me out when I found out I was pregnant- I thought I was going to wake up and find myself w/ a feathered short haircut and wearing a blue jean jumper!

And I am seeing what happens on the other end when you sacrifice all of your individuality to raise kids. My father in law died in January and my mother in law is completely lost. I asked Mr. B. what her hobbies were- maybe they could keep her occupied now- and he said, "Raising us." Sadly, that is true. She does not like to garden, she hates crafts, she has never exercised, she will not drive in the dark, she does not like pets, she has stopped cooking because it reminds her of her husband, she does not like interior decorating, I was trying to think of one hobby that she would enjoy last night and I came up with NOTHING. That is what happens when you sacrifice every aspect of your life to your family.

Wow- I am so far off topic, I cannot see it! Here, topic, topic! I just read the summary on drphil.com for today's show since I won't be here, and for the first time I felt sorry for Stacy. It explains alot that she was molested as a teen and her mother (who has been married so many times they have lost count) blamed Stacy. Lets bring Grandma on the show next!

Shill isn't showing today in my area due to Condi. Could some kind person recap today's FUF2 fun?

Especially when he says this to the woman who feared her 6 newborn children wouldn't be individuals: "Congratulations on your litter."
Egad.

My pregnancy was stressful practically from the day I conceived. And I was glad when it was over. My boy was worth all the pain and nonsense I went through. I will not judge any woman who decides not to spawn. I also second the poxing on pushy in-laws. I get the "Your son's almost 6 years old. When are you having another baby?" all the time from Mr. Star's folks.

I was asked when I was going to have a second baby until my son was 8 or so. Now that he's nearly 17, people have finally shut up. BTW if you do elect to have only one you will be regaled with tales of all the misfits, serial killers, unibombers, litterers, union agitators and eco terrorists who became that way BECAUSE THEY HAD NO BROTHERS OR SISTERS!!!! Yes, apparently, every only child most people ever knew were this close to full-smack lunacy.
Our son is an "only" and so are a good deal of his classmates & friends. Honor students, athletes, volunteers, polite decent kids who love their parents and don't believe the world revolves around them (well, no more than any other American teenager) and are not SPOILED. Fruit gets spoiled. Eggs get spoiled. Movie endings get spoiled. CHILDREN, however, whether they be onlies or one of fifteen in a family, rich, poor or middle class, can only be ruined by abuse or neglect, not birth order or number of possessions. Responding to a crying infant does not spoil her. Buying your child the best you can afford does not spoil him. Withholding love & approval, however, will.
DR Shill has all the answers, in some minds, because he has a show & a great deal of money. His PhD means much less, as we are told to shop for therapists as we do dentists and GYN's. One session with Shill & I would have been out the door. His ideas seem a tad retro for anyone who doesn't have June Cleaver as a role model. I couldn't vacuum in high heels if my life depended on it. Like to see Dr Shill try it, tho.

I know that's not really funny but ..... heh.

I hope that in my zeal for adoption I haven't implied that it's somehow "better" than giving birth! Mr TOMH plan on having more children (two or three perhaps) and we intend to add to our family "the old fashioned way" so I'm not saying that it's "adoption or nothing!".

I'd like to weigh in on DP doing an episode about SAHM and momsim. I am a SAHM, I have been ever since Mr TOMH got married and we started doing foster care. I feel really lucky because I feel like I'm getting to do the job that I always wanted to do. (Call me old fashioned but when I was a little girl I never played any rough games, I only played dolls.) I love being a SAHM and I know that my little guy benifits from having me at home with him. He happens to be brilliant. And I'm not biased at all. (ha ha) But I haven't lost myself either. I still go out with friends a few times a month. I still do volunteer work at the local animal shelter, a nearby retierment home, the battered womens shelter and chrochet hats, booties, blankets and scarfs for the childrens emergancy shelter. I also go to book readings and try to get out to eat or to movies a few times a month with my husband. In short, I haven't become a mom-bot. I don't go around verbally beating women who work outside the home. It's not the right choice for every woman. It's not a choice that every family can make financialy. It's not a choice that every woman would want to make. (One thing that really bugs me though is when women who do work outside the home say to me "Oh I could never do that! I would just go crazy! I have to use my mind more than that!". Not that long ago a woman said that to me and I said "Lucky for me I like to sit around with my thumb up my ass!" and walked away. Bitch.) Anyway, DP could never do a show on this topic because he doesn't have the sensitivity to talk about it without offending both sides. By the end of the show both camps would be ready to tear him apart because he would manage to say something so stupid that nobody in their right mind would have let pass their lips. "Stay at homes moms are stupid" "Working moms are bad" and the sort.

El DeMarge

Cripes, people would ask us the same thing when seeing us bottle feed our son. Do people have no boundries when it comes to the personal questions they will ask? I honestly used to ask "How is it any of your business?" I'm not known for my tact.

bellemmers, I've tried that, in fact when it comes to diet I've tried almost everything and nothing seems to work. I'm just a lucky gal!

Word. It really pisses me off that Dr. Phil just enabled this woman to feel like her life is incomplete unless she has a child. I didn't watch the show, but I can pretty much guess that he didn't go over the health dangers of having a baby later in life. My mom had my little brother when she was 36 and had a helacious pregnancy. She was on bed rest for 5 months, had four epidurals during the delivery and still felt pain (she made her way into a medical book for that one), and nearly died from high blood pressure soon after. I am just so sick and tired of this myth being perpetuated that having children defines you as a woman; it does nothing but cause problems. Some woman just don't want children and they shouldn't be made to feel bad about that. Hell, they should be praised for coming to that decision before they had a kid and not after.

Oh, it's funny now, believe me! Especially since the anesthesiologist was a smug bastard.

So I think we've determined that the people on this board are thoughtful, tolerant, nonjudgmental people, able to see multiple sides of issues and tactfully point out the bullshit. So my question: why does Phil have the show?

He's still wildly popular, from where I sit. He's also very good at what he does; that is, passing himself off as some supreme authority figure who cannot be questioned. He also manages to dispense his opinions with folksy, good-natured "humor" that makes him seem incredibly sincere.

I know, I know! None of us kissed Oprahs ass!

Sorry to disagree, Gemmadoll, but kids do get spoiled too. I agree that picking up a crying baby or witholding love from him/her is runious, but I have seen the attitudes and expectations of children spoiled by too much adualtion and by being showered with posessions without appreciation for the work that went into earning them. I was a spoiled, spoiled, spoiled only child, so I know. It really amazes me the things people give their children, the fiscal resources children have these days are astounding. My little cousins wear $45 Gap kids shirts, thier own laptops, expensive toys beyond what they can ever use, TVs and Xboxes in their bedrooms, their own cell phones. Any kid that gets too much without having to give very much, share responsibilities or become sensitive to the needs of others will get very spoiled.

Today's willl-they-or-won't-they episode with FUF2 totally irked. It felt like one of Fox's worst reality show between the supposed nail biting suspense, and that horrible, horrible "something portentious is about to happen" music. Ugh. And worse, Stacy played Phil like a fiddle. Double ugh.

I decided to turn into to Dr Shill and watch the FUF2. Wow. That skank is bad news. She just has no desire to change or take responsibility for herself.

I also did not get to see today's FUF2 ep because of Condi Rice. Did anything interesting happen?
Can't believe Dr Doom still has them on his show. They're going absolutely nowhere. I have this theory that he's going to wait until she delievers her baby and if it's Chris' kid, they're off the show. If it's another "Whoopsie-not-the-husband's-baby", Phil will keep them on the show to revel in their shame.

Agree to disagree. The majority of American adults don't give a fiddler's fart about the less fortunate; kids must be taught empathy & concern for the less fortunate. I've known selfish jerks who were given nothing, selfless volunteers who grew up with old money, family retainers, etc. A battered child is a spoiled child in that his potential has been compromised. Kids who have the gimme gimmes are simply parroting the adults in their lives. Most folks are in deep debt to keep up with the Joneses. Kids merely are passengers in the largesse train.
I forgot to mention that Dr Phil's approach to the "8 kids!" Dad was too cutesy cutesy. Rusty Yates, anyone?

I was a battered child I don't think I was "spoiled" because my "potential" was "compromised." In fact, I kind of think the overprotective, homeschooling SAHMs are doing their children a disservice by not giving them a sense of how the world really is. I know if my mother had brought me outside and told me to lay my head on a rock I would have run screaming in the opposite direction.

I'm an only child and now that I'm 20, I'm very thankful that I was able to grow up with the undivided attention of two parents. It didn't spoil me but it did allow me to feel more free and safe in the world because I didn't have any "who is Mom's real favorite?" thing bouncing around in my head during my formative years.

Because they had one child and didn't have to do two or three times the work, my parents were also able to very thoroughly teach me the importance of earning your satisfaction in life and treating others the way I wanted to be treated. I'm the child of a cardiothoracic surgeon and a speech therapist but I was treated with about as much privlege as a member of a chain gang so I've subscribed to the theory that it's really all in the way children are raised, not the financial situation.

Ditto the double ugh....... geez!!!!!

What an utter waste of time Dr Shil's show was today. As usual, Stacy called ALL the shots, and I agree that she totally played ol' Shil like a big ol' fiddle. Ughhhh......

My first time posting in the Phil thread (I'm usually in Sopranos or Apprentice) but I watch Phil almost daily and I've been following the FUFs. Looks like they're changing formats to do them only on Thursdays, taking turns between the two families.

We finally got to see the rest of the off-stage sit down he had with Stacy and Chris. My gut feeling is that I'm cautiously optimistic they've turned a corner here for a couple of reasons. I've been waiting for it, and Phil finally picked up the pace and addressed Stacy's childhood, which I've thought all along had to have been twisted to get her head as warped as it is. Sure enough, she'd been molested and her mom had multiple husbands and blamed Stacy as being "the other woman" when sexual abused. She didn't say so, but it's pretty clear the abuser(s) was/were her step father(s).

Classic codepenent childhood -- denial, blame and self-doubt. Not to mention making the choice to become a counsellor herself and fix (um, I mean "help") people as a subconscious attempt to avoid her own shit. Phil also hammered Stacy with her trust issues and her freakish need to control people/things. It's pretty clear that she's been subconsciously trying to sabotage the whole process so she can set herself up as the victim who's been abandoned, ripped-off and misunderstood, not just with Phil, but with what would have inevitably been the end of the marriage and a fractured relationship with her kids.

I think --god, I hope -- the light bulb went on and she finally realizes that her twisted need to be right is making her her own worst enemy. She seemed to have a bit more trust in Phil and his process and it looked like she had a better grasp on the bigger picture. What a hard case she is. He gave her big kudos for being a survivor and having the wherewithall to write in and recognize the need for change, and appeared to finally help her realize that it wasn't enough, that she was only setting herself up for another failure by maintaining control and running it into the ditch.

The whole show reminded me of a person about to enter addiction recovery; taking that first step and admitting your life is out of control and you are powerless and all that. I was mentally yelling at Stacy to "just surrender, already!"

She either has, or she's a con artist extraordinaire.

Chris still makes me want to give him a good hard shake and tell him to just "spit it out, already!" Annoys the shit out of me with all the "you know" and "umm" and "errr". Christ, at least Marty looks ya in the eye and says something, even if he is bullshitting himself half the time.

Then, Imwilker, the opinion does not apply to you. I have worked with battered kids for over twenty years & unfortunately 90% have had such damage that won't ever be what they could have been, Be glad you're not in the 90%. As far as SAHM & homeschooling moms go, there are good, bad & indifferent. Only monsters set out to purposely ruin their kids' lives. The rest are mortal, doing the best they know how.

Today's show was complete crap and Stacy totally played Dr. Phil! I'm sorry she had to go through that brutal childhood, nobody deserve that, but that doesn't excuse her behavior now. I'd be willing to give her more of a break if she wasn't so dismissive of everything DP tells her and actually seems like she's trying to fix her problems. She's not even trying to save her marriage at this point, just her reputation. I don't think either can be saved.

I agree about Chris' speaking, t-tt-t-oday Junior! He's really annoying!

The sad thing is that there are probably hundreds of families who feel their backs are against the wall who'd love to sit at Dr. Phil's feet. Some, no doubt, who do not hold him in contempt. ( I'm watching too too bleebleeblahblahboo but I won't get the cast off til next week. Will miss my talk show fix.)

First of all, Welcome to the Dollhouse, cuppajoe! Always glad to have new snark brought our way. It's Shill-licious!



Gemma and PissyMissy, from my unbiased reading, you both are right and are both saying basically the same thing; it's just semantics that is causing you to disagree. If a child grows up with no sense other than that of entitlement, it can only be laid squarely at the feet of his or her parents. I'm sure you all have seen the 1971 classic "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory." There are always great little ditties that the Oompa Loompas sing about bratty children: "What do you get when your child is a BRAT? Pampered and spoilt like a Siamese Cat?...who's to blame? The Mother and the Father!"

Doesn't everyone feel that upper middle class children (and hell, I'll go so far as to say MOST children) are giving THINGS to substitute for TIME and LOVE? I don't get that. My mother and father both worked 40-50 hours per week apiece, yet we managed to sit down to dinner every night together as a family and eat a meal that my mother, me, my sister, and my brother helped to create. This was non-negotiable. We had a clean house, and my parents still had time for one another. We three kids did not suffer from this parenting style at all. It made us self-sufficient and independent. Need a ride to a sporting event? Mom works; arrange it yourself, or walk. One sister has spring musical practice after school, and another has band practice? Too bad. Someone needs to be home when your brother gets home from school; work it out amongst yourselves to figure out who. Mom works. There was none of this hovel-house, only-eat-fast-food, live-in-the-SUV, overscheduled-to-the-hilt madness like you see today.

What child enjoys being constantly at organized sports activities and other "recreational" pursuits, anyway? My best times as a kid were spent playing Star Wars and Grease with my sister and my best friend (ah, that summer of 1979 was the best!).

I'm dating myself, and maybe I don't understand since I am not a parent myself. My sister is, and so is my brother. I know that they are raising their children the way we kids were raised.



I THOUGHT THAT TOO!!!!!!!!!!!! Man oh man oh man. Shill really loves to purport the notion that Parenthood Is Always Fun. Of course, in the real world, it isn't. In the real world, you have to rush your 10 month old to the ER at 3:00am because she has vomited four times in two hours.

I'm a childfree who is mad about the children, actually. You know what, though? Sometimes kids aren't fun! Sometimes they are a real pain in the ass! Sometimes they do stupid stuff! Sometimes they don't smell too nice! Sometimes they behave like little banshees! They're kids. Life with children is not a Hallmark Card commercial. Sometimes children are unbearably wonderful (my nieces Josie and Lilly are my entire life, and that's no foolin'), but more often than not, they aren't. Shill never seems to get around to saying stuff like that, does he? Here's a thought: maybe instead of providing another round of IVF for Gottahaveababy Lady, maybe he should have sent her to work a week or two as a volunteer in a shelter, caring for little ones. Maybe spend a week giving an ill mother a hand around the house with the ankle-biters (that's an Aussie phrase, isn't it great?). Maybe a bit more of a reality check than: "Here's a check so you can get your hopes up again, even though we never heard you say anything about motherhood other than how it is all about YOU YOU YOU."

Hey, I just saw the Jo Bob show re-run. Let's talk about how Jo Bob's mother needs to get up with Robin for some cosmetic surgery tips. Jo could use some Botox. Robin needs to use less. Why are we the only ones who notice Robin's over-botoxed-face? Nobody else ever mentions it, except on this forum. This is a mystery. Other celebs get blasted, but not Robin. Why?

maggiegault ah yes, those 70's summers...good times; 1979 was one of my favorite years...
it seems back then kids were left on their own quite a bit, to their advantage. Left to their own devices to make up games, work out differences, be kids....
Is it me, or is the world (ok, America) becoming hyper-kid fixated? By that I mean kids seem to be the center of attention everywhere, the constant subject of converstaion and entertainment. Whatever happened to adults being in charge? Does no one want to be an adult anymore? Sorry if I'm rambling...

I think that this is exceeding unfair as the most spoiled/selfish/mean/nuts person I have ever known is my late grandmother who was the youngest of 13 children!



No, frankly, they do not. I have a friend who is blond and very fair skinned, her husband is 1/2 Japanese and has black hair and darker skin. She has 2 sons - one who has her coloring, one who has her husband's and I cannot tell you the number of times complete strangers have asked her: (1) is the little boy with the dark hair/skin her natural child and (2) do her sons have the same father.

-Up with Childfree, down with Baby Factories (and twits). Here's what I think, and it's not aimed at anyone on the forum. It's just a general statement about how people in our country place a premium on mult-child households at any cost.
Tax payers bear the burden for all the kids born in litters due to IF and BAD PLANNING, and I am sick of it. Need Dr. Shrill pay for your IF? WTF? Get over yourself, and your need to spread your own DNA around. Or else adopt.

Stacy is proof that not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Key word is parent. Not mother. I'm glad she gave that other kid up for adoption. He's better off. Anyone can squeeze out a baby with a little help. The hard work comes after delivery. Seems our society rewards those who can squeeze out the most pups, in the shortest amount of time. I don't want to sound anti-child, but what we need to do is give tax breaks to people who use their eggs in a responsible manner. Nothing wrong with choosing NOT to have kids. -- Or choosing to only have one, if that's all you can afford to educate, love, supervise, talk to, keep up with, and raise properly. I only have one. That's all I can afford to have and raise properly. My kid has a college trust fund. He's now a junior in high school. If I'd chosen to have more kids, he wouldn't be going to college on a trust fund. I am not rich. I am also not stupid. I know where babies come from.

Plus, there's another benefit we all reap when we lop the heads off the mindless baby factories.....having only one kid means she doesn't have an viable EXCUSE to drive her SUV or Hummer to the pediatrician's office and dent/ding/scrape everybody else's car doors/bumpers as she flops around like a mindless idiot with her diaper bag, extra siblings, cute purse, cell phone, juicy cups, snacks, toys, coloring books, markers, and car carrier in tow. And let's don't forget...the pweeechhhusss baby. It's tangled up in there, somewhere.

Her lack of children will also come in handy when the rest of us are going out to enjoy public, adult-oriented places...like movies, sports bars, and restaurants.

World peace = responsible egg harvesting.

PS...Can you imagine going out to a nice restaurant and having to sit next to either of Dr. Shrill's FUF's? NIGHTMARE.