Those of you debating about why Alex wasn't given the option of abortion by Dr Phil, I'd like to point out that she was in or close to her 3rd trimester when this all started last summer. Depending on the abortion laws in her state, it may not have been possible for her to go down that road at that late time. I also think that the decision to have the baby rather than get an abortion was not up for negotiation by the family. Was it Erin that wrote in to Dr Phil in the first place? If so, she probably did because she wanted to leave her marriage, but her daughter was going to have a baby and the decision had been made not to abort. She was probably torn between her desire to get out of her marriage vs her desire to provide a supportive environment for her pregnant daughter.

Stacey, thanks for that reminder. She was past six months, IIRC, when Dr. Phil began working with them. Most places that I know of don't allow abortions past six months unless the life of the mother is at stake which was not the case here.

Professor Soap, I don't see having a firm conviction about something like abortion (say, being against it) as being incongrous with being well-informed and open minded; he may be totally against abortion and thus not willing to advocate it on his show, but will discuss other options. As I said, I think abortion is a well-known option in this country whereas adoption is not promoted as a viable option much anymore, so I don't think DP needs to present an option if it's against his beliefs or values. I think it would be hypocritical for him to present an option that violated his standards and values.

Good point, Stacey, and since I am definitely opposed to Later-Trimester Abortions (Unless the Mother's life is on the line!) I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her have one at that point anyway.

It was easy to forget how far along she was and how fast they and the show got to delivery.

Actually, I don't really give a shit about Alex or Katherine (Because I think both sisters are basically idiots -- Can someone as smart as Erin REALLY be their Mother? -- and Katherine is such a clueless and self-righteous little bitch!) and I have been far more fascinated by Marty and Erin and their marriage.

And I'll just bet that Jay and his buddies -- after giving the girls that saintly talking to about how "the majority" of young guys really want more then just a girl who puts out -- THEY THEN WENT OUT THAT VERY NIGHT, drank like fishes, and then FURIOUSLY trolled the bars for willing and available pussy until the early morning hours. If they didn't do that, or a classier equivalent, then they are all either deeply religious and sexually locked-down until engagement/marriage, gay and just can't admit to it, or suprisingly wholesome and mature for their age group.

I wonder if Jay get's lots of panties tossed at him or sexual opportunities because of who he is and how many of them he accepts? He's actually pretty cute but he seems kinda boring.

I agree with you on adoption not being promoted enough. Actually, I wish we could promote Open Adoption as The Option and not actively shame Young Mothers for getting pregnant to begin with. So long as the adoption is open and she remains appraised of the baby's progress and can visit from time-to-time no young woman or her baby's life needs to necessarily be ruined by an unplanned pregnancy and some good can come of it.

Still, as with all such important things, that's a choice only a woman can make.

Professor Soap, not sure why you think it 'has to be an open adoption' and that 'it's a choice only a woman can make' since I knew two gals when I was in high school who chose adoption and did it via closed adoption. One was 16, the other 17 when they gave up their babies for adoption. I still am in touch with one of them and was in touch for many years with the other...both say they have no regrets, that it was the right choice for them. They weren't ready for marriage, didn't believe in abortion and felt that adoption was the best choice.

They also felt the best way for them to move forward was to handle this as a closed adoption...best for them and best for the baby; it might work for some gals, but not for all. I don't see how you can judge that only 'an open adoption' is the best' and 'would allow a young woman's life to have good come out of it'.

I also have family members who are adopted - and none of them have ever wanted to find their birth mothers...they know the basics of their situation (born to unwed high school girls and put for adoption immediately) and feel that their adoptive parents are all they need. Of course, some adoptees do want to find their birth mothers, but not all reunions result in happy families...some do, some don't.

You say that boys who do a 'classier version of trolling the bars for pussy' must be deeply religious AND sexually locked down or gay; not every young man fits that description and I think it's hugely presumptious to think so. I've volunteered for many years with teens in various settings and there are indeed some young guys who are postponing sex (the NY Times did a Sunday cover story about this - and many of them have no religious affiliation, by the way...but are waiting for practical reasons, etc.). I also know some great young guys brought up in the church who have a strong faith and are postponing sex but are not repressed or gay. That sounds like a huge slam on anyone religious who might believe in waiting until marriage for sex, IMO.

May be hard to believe that those types exist, but they do! My brother, as red-blooded male as they come, is quite religious and waited until marriage to have sex and no, he wasn't repressed or gay...just a guy who had strong convictions and is glad he waited. He and his wife have a fabulous marriage. Doesn't work for everyone, but it did for them.

Well, I didn't intend to say we should get rid of Closed Adoption -- you make good points as to it's potential uses -- but Open Adoption usually works better for people in that they at least have the option to re-connect/correspond later and not be left to wonder what became of the parent/baby which was what frequently happened to untold numbers of mothers and children in the Not So Good Old Days and many are still scarred by it.

As for your critique of my scenario for Jay and the boys what I said was:



I'm sorry if you're offended by my opinion, but most non-religious/non-conflicted YOUNG GUYS that I know, usually at least want to score and want to do so quite often independently of whether or not they want to be/are in an actual relationship.

They DON'T usually prattle on like Church Elders about the virtues of abstinence until marriage or so misrepresent what many men are really like, up to, or after.

I mean, really, Jay and his Posse sounded like they escaped a Hallmark Greeting Card or were the poster-boys for the Purity Ring Factory.

Male sexuality frequently exists independently of love.

It's driven by the forces of Evolutionary Biology I am afraid, the core goal at the biological level is to try and knock-up as many females as possible, and it takes a pretty strong man to control those RAGING instincts during his peak reproductive years. Hooking up, pairing, commiting, and parenting is something men do MUCH BETTER later on when they are older.

I have difficulty believing that Jay and his Posse are as evolved as they would have us believe or that they speak for the majority of young men, but as you say, young people are changing.

Professor Soap, I can see where option adoption keeps the connection there for possible reconnection...it's just that for many folks it also keeps things open where they don't feel they can move on as easily in their lives. I am still curious as to your comment about "it's a choice only a woman can make" since many of the girls I've known who went through this were in high school...and did just fine, from their perspective, making that choice.

Yes, I know what you're saying about how young boys are, I guess I've been lucky to know many guys who had/have strong convictions and are able to withstand social pressures and biological ones too. I was as stunned as anyone to read the NY Times story this past weekend which detailed these boys (and some girls too) who are postponing sex, some even until marriage...and this was among many minorities, not just white kids. And as I said, most were not doing it for religious purposes, but because of STD's, wanting to have a future, etc.

I agree with you on this, there really is a very surprising shift towards abstinence and conservative values in a lot of the younger generations that there wasn't in the Boomer, Buster, or X Generations. It makes my jaw drop how conservative my sister and her friends sound but then they were raised by stable and established middle-aged boomers who had figured out how to do things right by their second, third, or fourth marriage. My own Generation X, the Baby Busters, and the Baby Boomers came of age in highly turbulent times.

As for my statement on women's choices, I meant both women and girls when I said women, and I meant more importantly that some choices should NEVER be made by men.

Professor Soap, thanks for clarifying...when you said "women", it sounded like adult women.

It is a surprising shift in some ways, in others, it's not. Usually a few generations after things have gone one way, it begins to tilt back in the other way. I think the shift toward abstinence - for whatever reason - is a good one since STD rates have been rising steadily and so many teens either don't listen or are unaware of how dangerous (longterm) STD's can be (infertility, etc.). And given that so many kids are having sex younger and younger (11, 12, unfathomable to me at that age), I fear a lot of emotional hurt given that so many of these girls later say that 'they wished they had at least waited until they were older' since they didn't realize the emotional ties to sex.

As an adoptee I really disagree with open adoption. The key element in adoption is to bond with ones adopted family as if there is no difference between those born into the family and those adopted into it. The adoptees I know who were in open adoption situations seem to be more insecure and less well adjusted. I think open adoption is often done solely to comfort the biological mother, and frankly, her comfort isn't a good enough reason to keep an emotional hold on the child, instead of releasing him/her to fully bond with the adopted family and immerse him/herself in the adopted family's new life.

I'm a pentecostal evangelical Christian, and you know, DP isn't pinging my Jesus-dar. In fact, he doesn't ping it in the same way that George W. doesn't ping it: conservatisim is often a political, moral, social viewpoint without any real spiritual relationship with God or Allah or whatever you beleive in, you can belong to the religious right without being religious and never being right. Particularly in Texas.



Yeah, I think that's crap. My male friends, who are mostly agnostic or athiest, and are all straight, don't sleep around at all. They just are nice guys with other goals. Most of the guys I know, post college, aren't slutty.



Kathreine is an adolecent. Everyone is clueless and self-righteous at that age. Life experience tempers self-righteousness. When I was 13 I protested at abortion clinics. Now I think that unless you're willing to adopt a crack baby or take in a pregnant teenager and provide for her and her baby you don't have any right to anti-abortion rhetoric. In any case, nobody will be able to tell if she's actually a bitch or not for about 8 more years, children are not bitches.

I agree, in fact there's a book by Neil Strauss and Bill Howe which talks about how human civilization actually goes through four fairly predictable cycles.

I outlined my position on waiting for a relationship to hit a certain level of intimacy, affection, and respect -- unless one wants to go Pagan while at South Padre Island or on a Saturday Night -- before having sex but it REALLY does worry me that so many people are now going so far the other way and are saying "Wait for marriage!" which can have the effect of FORCING SEXUALLY DESPERATE PEOPLE into rushing into incompatible relationships and into making commitments they aren't ready to make; both of which can cheapen marriage, destroy families, and waste years of life.

I have these concerns not as some libertine but as a clinician and scholar who studies the psychobiology, developmental windows, and percentages.

Did you know that, while there are exceptions, the most stable marriages are entered into after 28 and that the maximimum stability is attained at 30 and beyond?

Besides which, all the new EB research says that the "In-Love Neurochemical High" usually only lasts about 4 years after which your marriage had better be grounded more on animal instinct or you won't make it. Too many people get married when they are too young, too high, and too narcissistic.

As one of my friends said:

"Marriage should be celebration of a ship which has proven itself able to weather storms and be seaworthy and SHOULD NOT be the launching of a ship you hope will stay afloat."

PissyMissy, well said on all points. I especially agree with you about open adoption and it being most for the benefit of the biological mother. That's the very reason my friends chose closed adoption - they wanted to move on and felt the child could bond best if they had it closed.


Professor Soap, I'm sure some young couples who wait until marriage for sex might marry ill-advised, but many that I know who do (wait) actually have better developed and more mature relationships than the ones who have been 'going at it' well before marriage.

I've seen couples (who wait) develop amazing emotional intimacy and ability to work through tough things that puts many married folks to shame (and they've also blossomed even more in marriage)...waiting for sex until after marriage can (not always, but often does) force a couple to develop their relationship in other, more emotional/developmental ways since they're not spending hours having sex and getting wrapped up in lust. Not saying that folks can't develop that kind of emotional intimacy if they have sex before marriage, it's just sometimes easier to do so without having sex first.

If anything, I see couples rushing into marriage not because of dying to have sex, but for the fairy-tale aspect of it, without a clue about what it takes to make a marriage work, even when the couples have lived together. And I've seen way many couples who have 'great, amazing chemistry' who have little compatability otherwise, so that animal instinct isn't enough to sustain a marriage. If that were the case, many 'hot-to-trot' couples would still be married.

Dr. Phil is right about one thing - while chemistry must be there, there's gotta be a firmer foundation than just chemistry present for a marriage to last...a strong friendship and commitment to work things out. Yes, chemistry is important but it's not the only component, IMO.

I shouldn't get all jiggy with the quotes, but I couldn't snip a word. I do believe that there are some young men out there who are fully capable of making a commitment and being faithful at a young age. I also believe that there are some men who cannot help themselves. It's unfortunate, but true, and for the very reason Soap describes. I used to really scream and rant and rage about this, when I was a younger CG and caught my boyfriends stepping out on me.

Age has brought wisdom as well as crows' feet.

I'm not saying the behavior is right, but I do agree that men--particularly young men--do have heavy biological and evolutionary forces at play that figure into their sexual behavior. It's true: in caveman times, a man had to impregnate as many women as possible in order to further his bloodline. I think modern men still deal with that to a lesser extent today.

Of course, there are always those dogs who use the biology argument to act like total knuckleheads about women. This theory is not an excuse to be a male slut.

As with all things Jay, his panel of young male sages left me cold. Yes, they were saying all the right things, but I too felt that their own real relationships with women needed to be examined along with the platitudes they were spouting. And I hate to say it, but a group of guys like that would say terrible things about Alex behind her back. I know, because I've seen it happen again and again. Men can be very cutting and cruel, and many of the men I know would regard Alex as a stupid tramp.

It's tough on young men who have girlfriends (and even boyfriends). When the hormones rage, it's hard to keep your eye on Your Beloved. I know some guys who manage to do it, but I know just as many guys who don't.

We also need to get realistic in this country about how men view sex: once again, I concur with Soap that, for many many men, sex has virtually nothing to do with love. It can have everything to do with love when the man is making love with his wife or girlfriend, but it can also be a release, a tension reliever, or something to simply pass the time. Primarily in the United States do we hold this notion (women propelled, I think) that sex and love must always be intermingled. Contrast this attitude with that of the French, or the Italians. Especially in Italy, even middle-class and lower-class couples have other lovers, both parties. It's something that is ho-hum and universally accepted, because the Italians realize that sex can have nothing to do with love, and that in the end, it's love that truly matters. Having sex with another woman has no bearing on an Italian man's feelings for his wife, whom he reveres.

WORD TO ALL OF THREE OF YOU... for making some VERY GOOD points.

And, you're so right ComplicatedGirl, Jay and the Posse would sooo rip holes in Alex the second she left campus. Where is Jay going anyway, Rice?

It's funny, I personally never saw Alex as a tramp, just a bubbly and clueless teenage girl who sought to find a connection with a boy that she wasn't getting at home but it wouldn't occur to me to think her of her as slutty. However, I think Dr. Phil has an unrealistic fantasy that there exists out there a Mother/Father whom is so perfect that their children wouldn't dream of sleeping with someone else until they were ready to marry. Beyond that, even if Marty/Erin were better parents, I think Alex might still have hooked up with a boy anyway out of boredom or emptiness.

Also, do yout all think she's really telling the truth about Erin being Anti-Birth Control?

It just seems so incongruous with Erin's personality.

Interestingly enough and by the way, all male animals fear hooking up with a female who will seek to become pregnant by another male because the other male may be of superior physical/mental/genetic quality to the male that the female is actually capable of landing as a mate. This is the reason for the double-standard of desirable men running around trying to nail every willing woman they can (and have it winked at) but there being a deep societal taboo on women who are known to sleep around, two-time, or have children out-of-wedlock. It is the male fear and uncertainty over paternity.

It's also why watching Maury on "Whose The Daddy?" days is such sadistic fun!

Professor Soap, supposedly Jay goes to Southern Methodist University - law school, at that.

But given how often he's on DP's show and out 'helping young people everywhere' (and don't forget - writing his very own book too!), I don't see how he has time to go to school anymore. He really bugs me since it's like he's acting as a psychologist when he has no qualifications at all. Oh sure, Phil is his dad, but if that's the case, then I guess I'm a lawyer since my dad is one, LOL!

And I agree about Alex - I've known girls like that, lonely, looking for SOMEONE to pay attention to them, and so when a boy comes along, they go with it (and no surprise why Alex did, given her parents and home life). Don't think Alex is particularly bright in general, but not a slut. And after this round with baby Nathan, I'd find it hard to believe that Erin was anti-birth control.

Heck, I grew up in a very conservative, religious home (taught to wait until marriage, etc.) but my mom had common sense and told me that "if I couldn't wait - even though she'd prefer I waited until marriage - let her know and she'd get me on the pill". So I knew I had options...and being offered that option also allowed me to do it on my timetable, not just 'have sex to rebel against my upbringing' (as often happens when parents push any agenda - sex, drinking, etc. - too hard).

And yes, even great parents have kids who are gonna have sex...doesn't make them bad parents or bad kids. It just happens. And while there are parents out there who raise kids who wait until marriage for sex (I do know some), it doesn't happen that way everywhere.

I sooo agree with you on that BibiBella, Jay totally acts like a shrink (with a mail-order diploma and some schooling via a cheap self-help book) and its totally irritating to watch. He is totally inequipped to understand what Alex and her unconscious were up to.

I still can't figure out how much of what he preaches he believes and how deeply he's been brainwashed by Dr. Phil and Robin with her trusty Lye Soap Tortures!

This may sound perverse but I'd love to be -- or have been -- a fly on the wall for Jay's first sexual experience, he's so serious and contained I'd like to see him having sex or totally drunk or engaged in some other out-of-control behavior just for shits and giggles.

Tee Hee!

It's funny, getting back to what you were saying, I had a COMPLETELY PERMISSIVE mother yet as a result I never did anything wrong when it came to bed-time, sex, drugs, or drinking and I had every opportunity.

At the same time, I was a fairly serious Only Child, who spent about 1000 years in therapy, and I was definitely more interested in my intellectual pursuits and personal development then I was in raising hell or rebelling.

The again, I was also raised by a very intelligent woman and feminist and I think I picked up a lot by Osmosis and which also led to my hoping for better from men but usually ended with disapointment in men.

It's funny, the things I expect from the more base or sleazy men, I myself never actually did or would do but it was more based on personal choice then any sort of indoctrinated morality.

But then again, I've always believed that the world would run far better if it was run by women because men are just too removed from what it really takes to maintain a family and a community on so many levels.

Professor Soap, well, the one thing that probably kept me from rebelling like all hell with boys was that my mother told me she'd get me birth control if I 'couldn't wait'. That took off the allure of doing it just to rebel until I was ready (no, I didn't wait until marriage - not my thing - but I did wait until I wanted to do it and I was in love, post-high school).

Wow, the board is hopping tonight!

I just finished reading all of your posts so Glark won't bitch slap me into tomorrow, and I have to say a big word to everyone, especially our new Soapy friend. It is so nice to see a spirited debate not devolve into name calling and trash talking, like so many other web boards.

Being 26, I have had most of my friends marry in the past 5 years. My college roomie waited until marriage before having sex with her husband. They did everything BUT have intercourse, but that is neither here nor there. Their relationship is not one I would wish for myself- he is very domineering and controlling, she submissive, and they don't really do anything but sit around the house. My other friend who waited- she was on the brink of divorce last year and they have major communication problems. My other friend who waited- he was living a double life and they have since divorced. I think anytime you talk in stereotypes you are going to get bit in the butt because I don't think that waiting will guarantee you a happy marriage. In fact right now I am having a hard time finding a good example of abstinence before marriage amongst my friends, although I know there has to be one somewhere.

As for young guys and their attitudes towards sex- where are ya'll finding these chaste, focused, grounded guys, because I wish I had met them during college! Now, Mr Borokat was always level headed, moral, and very focused on finding a good relationship during his single days and not one to sleep around (I have a good one) BUT, I cannot help but think if he got a really good offer from some super hot chick- he would have taken it. In a heart beat. I just did not know any guys who were virgins by choice.

As for abortion, most of you know I am currently in my 3rd trimester with Little Borokat (who has been kicking up a storm after my evening caffeine-free Dr. Pepper), and I find my feelings mixed on the subject. I loathe the idea of any of those old men on Capitol Hill telling me what I can and cannot do with my body, but now experiencing pregnancy, the thought of terminating a fetus is incredibly disturbing, especially with all of the childless people out there. Alex keeping her baby made me sick- she needs a baby like I need another hole in my head. And she is behaving exactly as we predicted- not like a mother, but a child. As for adoption, I do believe that it is ultimately up to the adoptive parents, I believe that they should have the option for an open or closed adoption. I am AMAZED in Stacy's case, after they chose a closed adoption, that they have LET her come in and try to be a part of that poor child's life. Katherine- not a bitch (yet). Stacy- Super Bitch!

Whew.

Borokat - I'm in my 3rd trimester too. In fact, in two minutes I hit my due date.

It's so nice to have a place to describe my feelings on Dr. Phil, I normally just sighed and rolled my eyes but now I actually have a place to bitch. Thank you all for making me feel so welcome!

Borokat, great point about talking in stereotypes. I know those who waited until marriage for sex who have great marriages and those who don't...same for those who didn't wait. My point was that there are some couples who still wait and who do have great marriages...a point I don't often see made in society today since I think it's more the norm now to have sex pre-marriage and to even live together pre-marriage - and, IMO, when something that is an honorable choice for some is made to seem old-fashioned or out of date, then I think people need to realize that it is still a viable choice for some. Can't remember the show, but there were teen girls talking about the pressures of having sex these days, how 'if you don't have sex by high school, then you're weird, a freak' - that the 'norm' now is to have a lot of sex whereas it used to be seen as honorable to wait a while!

I think young girls would benefit by waiting until they're older...starting in junior high with full-blown sex is not healthy, IMO. The NY Times did an extensive story about this a few years ago and found that many of these young girls are being left 'emotionally wounded' and need counseling - they didn't realize the emotional component that is part of sex, they just thought it 'was an act, like they see in the media'...so I applaud efforts to have them wait since I think so many resort to having sex (before they're ready) due to peer pressure.

I met chaste, grounded guys in college through honor groups, campus activities and even through being in a sorority! Post-college, I met them through volunteer activities and friends. And as I said, my brother waited until he got married and is still glad he did. He's a rare example, I know, but they do exist. And even the NY Times article this weekend profiles a lot of boys who are waiting (which stunned me, given this day and age!)...and most were not doing it for religious purposes, but to have a future and avoid STD's.

Word to everyone about having great spirited debates on this board in a respectful manner...another reason why I love to post here!

DrCher, congrats! And God bless you, you must be ready to get the show on the road! I am in my 7th month and I wish that it would just be over and done with- I want to meet the being that has been playing my bladder like a conga drum! Is it going to be a Baby Girl Cher or a Baby Boy Cher?

Bibi, granted, in college I was a Criminal Justice major and that bunch was not known for their moral fortitude, so that might be a part of it! :) Of course I started college 9 years ago, do you think that this abstinence trend is something that has emerged in the past few years? Believe me, I wish that I (and my friends) had jumped on that bandwagon, especially, after my HIV test. When I started dating Mr. Borokat, I thought it would be the responsible thing to do to be tested, although I was never Slutty McTrampy, I also did some boneheaded things in college (as most of us did). And let me tell you, during those 24 hours waiting for my test results, I rued the day I had ever contemplated the idea of having sex. With ANYONE. And mine was negative with low risk! That is something I hope these young people do not have to go thru.

Tell Little Borokat to give his mum a break already!

For me, the very idea of abortion is repugnant, but it is necessary in a civilized society. If Roe v. Wade 1973 is overturned, as the Shrub White House would like, abortions would not stop. They would just no longer be safe and legal and accessible to every woman. That, to me, is a frightening thought, both as a woman and an American. How much more of American medicine is going to revert back to the dark ages?

I think that if you have a tiny amount of sense and compassion, the decision to abort would be an agonizing one, full of regret and anguish. I don't know if I could ever do it. Then again, what (God forbid) I was raped and became pregnant? I would not bear my rapist's child. I also have a very serious chronic illness, and having a child would be a very bad idea. What if became pregnant, would I want to pass this illness onto my child? I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Then there are those folks who simply choose to forgo having children. If abortion were made unsafe and illegal, should they be forced to be celibate?

Believe me: I am living proof that birth control methods fail. And I'm glad my mommy chose to have me. Yet I am sad to think that, back in 1970, should she have wanted to abort, she would have had to seek out some backdoor procedure.

For those anti-abortionists who say that the procedure ends lives, I say this: making it illegal will continue to end lives...that of the women seeking the abortion.

(I'm not asking you personally; these are rhetorical questions. Your little one is giving you a rough enough time tonight!)

Borokat, from what read and know, the abstinence thing seems to have been taking hold over the past 5-10 years (among young teens).

Much of the reasoning (besides religious reasons) is the fear of STD's, better education about STD's (and the long-term damage they can cause, such as infertility) and for many kids in less-than-great neighborhoods, wanting a better future (having seen what's happened with friends who get preggers when teens, then drop out and have no future). Most of the kids in the NY Times article I referenced are minorities (a lot of Hispanic kids) who want a future for themselves and also want to avoid STD's.

I think that fact that AIDS is growing in alarming numbers among heterosexual kids is another factor, although 'kids will be kids' and think it won't ever happen to them (AIDS, STD's, pregnancy)...but it seems to deter sex for some.

The one physical advantage (Aside from not having to fear STD's!) for waiting until you are deeply in-love / committed / married is that you do get to maximize the feeling state that you'll experience post-orgasm because you're actually doing-it with someone you're already in-love with and committed to. A lot of studies say committed couples have more and better sex.

Most of my friends, met, became friends, then dated for a while, and then had sex when they were comfortable that the relationship had some significant attachment and value to it for both of them though they usually weren't clear whether it would be long-term at that point, only that it would be profound, though they suspected it would.

After that, they continued on that track for a while to evaluate the relationship and then eventually moved in if they felt the relationship had a future. They usually later married, though one couple stayed together (10 Years!), but didn't marry because he doesn't believe in marriage (At least not to her because she's admittedly a little crazy and he doesn't want anyone to have power over him!) even though she continually moans about them not being marrried. Even though I can respect his position, I told him she's a fool to stay with him if marriage matters to her and that he'd better plan on losing her to someone who will marry her at some point.

The funny thing is that wedding for my long-term live-in couple friends who got married was sort of anti-climactic for them because they'd already fallen-in-love, made the decision to be together/live together, and began the gradual process of merging their lives years before.

Still, I have to respect how they did it. When they did get married, the glow had worn off, the relationship had proved itself structurally-sound and well-engineered, and they were basically solidifying and making permanent a provisional commitment they had made.

It's funny, despite my now pushing thirty and having been raised in a very progressive and permissive household (And having some youthful sexual adventures!) I have yet to meet anyone I am truly hopeful about AND interested in at a relationship level and am NOW equally disinterested in having sex with someone where that feeling is lacking.

I mean if Jude Law, Ed Harris, Robin Williams, or Sean Connery waltzed into my apartment I'd certainly have fun with them for a night but I'd really prefer to be with soemone worthwhile.

I follow the more conservative model not out of morality but because sex without affection, respect, and emotional connection has proven to be utterly worthless and love has now become the greatest prize.

Surprisingly hard to find and keep.

All that said, I would still follow the model of my friends who married after extended road-testing of the relationship because that's the model and method I logically believe leads to the best results.

Congratulations and good luck, ladies! I'm typing with one hand and burping Hex Jr, almost four months old, with the other. It's scary, and trying, and frustrating, and GREAT. I had a worse than expected scenario with an emergency c-section at 35 weeks, and it still wasn't all that bad, so I'm excited for you guys!

If I were DP, I wouldn't touch abortion with a ten foot pole. Most people take a concrete stance and the middle ground is thin as a razor. I couldn't stand to watch the Working Mom 'vs' Stay at Home Mom show which was so filled with close-minded people as to create a vacuum. I turned that one off. (That, and the vicious breastfeed 'vs' bottle feed battle make me shake my head at womanhood, whatever happened to supporting each other and seeing others' viewpoints? Sheesh.) Can you imagine what would happen with an abortion discussion show? In an election year? [sshhuudderrrr]

Hexele, I agree, certain topics are just too divisive and hot to handle like the 'stay at home moms' versus the 'working outside the home moms' that Oprah did...that got really fugly really fast! Abortion is one of those topics...I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole on a TV show.

Heck, it got bad enough on DP when he did a show last year about obesity and two women - each weighing about 350-400 pounds - argued endlessly with him that they were 'very healthy, had no medical or physical problems at all and didn't expect any' (what denial universe were they living in?!) and were angry that they were judged for being fat and that things were harder for them (i.e., airline seats being too small, etc.).

There is some truly wonderful discussion going on here.



I'm surprised no one has brought up the report that came out yesterday about the teens who pledged to wait until marriage. The report stated that abou 9 out of 10 teens who pledged to wait ended up breaking that pledge and have about the same rate of STD's of those who do not take this pledge. While they do tend to have fewer sexual partners, they often come unprepared to sex. In other words, they don't use condoms and end up contracting diseases.

As a high school teacher I have seen people with many different attitudes towards sex. There are those who are willing to wait for religious or disease related reasons. I don't know what Jay is like but I do know some guys who are uncomfortable with the idea of a one night stand so I don't think all guys are out trolling for the quick screw.

Oh God, I forgot about that hour of tripe!

What a waste of sixty minutes that was.

I hate any show that sets up groups of women as adversaries. To me, it smacks of the whole "catfight!" stereotype that addlepated brains embrace.

Sisters, we're in this together! Stop fighting!

I actually thought that NY Times article was a little...off. My gaydar (cultivated and refined through years of ballet) meter was going off wildly.
I think, for me, the reason that I see DP as a conservative Christian is his general attitude that there is one way to do things without any reasoning behind it.

Mimi, as one who comes from a conservative Christian background, I don't get that from DP at all. As a poster upstream said, there are folks out there who are conservative but it has nothing to do with religion...not all conservatives and Republicans are Christian or religiously-oriented although many are. Many are conservatives for moral, philosophical reasons, etc.

As for some of his behavioral approach things, I think there are some tried and true methods (re: child-rearing, responsibility, etc.) where there is certainly a 'better' way to do things (being firm with kids, etc.)

What I meant was that, to me, making a choice based on what the perceived consequences will be or making a choice to change a habit are quite different from making a choice because "Dr. Phil told me to". To me, it is very similar to making choices based on "what God wants" and not what I want or what I hope the outcome will be.

I'm a conservative, evangelical, pentecostal Christian who doen't want to see RvW overturned, believes in some form of legal recognition for longstanding gay partnerships, and believes passionately in the seperation of church and state. I'm just sayin', most of the liberal professors I had in college were more close minded than the most raving conservative: if you don't see things their way you're an unenlightened idiot. The narcissim that drives that my-way-or-the-highway attitude is not limited on one side of the political or religious spectrum.

Word to that. I find the same attitude among some liberal friends of mine when, in fact, I share a wide range of beliefs on various issues even though I'm generally conservative.


Mimi, IMO, anyone who makes a decision "because DP told them to do it this way" is likely going to do the same, regardless of who tells them (parents, church, DP, etc.). They tend to be the kind of folks that want to be 'led' to a decision, from my experience. JMO...

And I do think for many folks on his show, DP gives a wake-up call (although he did this better when he was on Oprah and early on in his own show) about consequences and looking at how to live one's life from a longer view than immediate gratification. And given the 'victim' society we live in today, many people need that knock on the head big-time. So if they get the wake-up call from DP and follow through, it's possible that it's a better choice than doing nothing at all.

For our society to effectively run, people need to learn to be capable of Critical Thinking, to think for themselves, and to think both in and outside the box. They've got to learn to "Do the scientific, racial, gender, socio-economic, and cultural math!" and project the possible long-term, local, global, and systemic consequences of any action, policy, philosophy, or belief stystem.

That's what pisses me off about many Christians and Conservatives (Though obviously not all!); many of them (But not all!) often seem to agree with a particular perspective because it was ether A: In The Bible or B: Whatever The Latest Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Anti-Choice, Ignorant, Delusional Sexist White Male Patriarch has declared must be so and has issued it forth as a commandment.

When they believe in something for either of these reasons, when science and reason and the progress of civilization have been bypassed, then I think there is a VERY BIG PROBLEM because they have not done any sort of objective analysis that convinced them it truly was or might perhaps be so and cannot make informed discussion or commentary since they "outsourced the thinking" to either whomever wrote the Bible (Trust me, it wasn't God, because there's too much Pathology!) or whatever Patriarch is in fashion and power at the moment.

Perhaps one reason that thinking Conservatives and Christians get trampled on is because their unthinking brothers and sisters are the one's in the lime-light. It's heartening to know that there are moderate and thinking Conservatives and Christians out there.

heh! They're not all patriarchs; don't forget Dr. Laura. But then I'm convinced she's a patriarch in drag.

there are plenty of things I believe personally because they're in the Bible, but I limit those strictures to my own life and don't expect others of different persuasion to follow them. I subscribe to Locke's theroy on the role of government: the law should be the the least-intrusive common deonminator by which many people of many beliefs can live together peaceably. Thus I am personally pro-life but politically pro-choice, believe marriage in the church should be between man and woman but believe the state has an obligation to recognize the union, marraige, whatever, between any two committed people, I believe in creationalism but think evolution should be taught in school, etc.

BTW.. re: today's rerun about couples headed for financial doom. The lady who spends all the family's money on clothes (though I suspect they're from Banana Republic and not from Dulce & Gabanna as DPs clips showed) ought to spend a couple of bucks getting rid of those scary, scary highlights.

Ooo, I remember Chunky Highlight Material Woman! Thankfully, she did change her ways (according to a follow-up show). She was so embarrassed by her behavior on the show and the comments on the DP message boards. Good thing she didn't show up here, heh.

I agree with Dude on a Corner's wife. He should be out mowing lawns, not sitting at a desk on a corner hoping someone will hand him a job. Moron! Gah, I'd forgotten how much I hated that man.

If Mr. Spend All the Money on DVDs truly believes his children are his life, why did he say they don't need air conditioning in the car during 100 degree weather?

I hated Dr. Phil riding to their rescue and his pathetic wife crying her eyes out with gratitude... now THAT was pathetic!

Her highlights really were scary, who thought that would look good? Oh right, she buys $100+ pairs of jeans (not that that's a crime, but come on, 3 or 4 pairs?!), she's one of those expensive=good types. I'm glad she changed her behavior, I was about to hunt her down and smack some sense into her.

The guy on a corner was a moron! Yeah you're educated, we get it, his wife was right. Take what you can get at this point man!

I didn't catch the end of the show, please tell me DP didn't like pay off all their debts or something. We all know the dumbest people on this show get fancy surprises and rewards for being idiots. Gah!

He didn't pay off their debts, katymo, but he did set up an appointment with a headhunter (or something like that) so Corner Man could find a job.

BTW, Corner Man is a member of MENSA and yet he thought the desk in a gas station parking lot was a good idea? Wha?

What a Fucktard Corner Man was!

Who watched today's show? I don't know if it was a repeat (I have an evil theory why we are seeing repeats all this week) but I had never seen it before.

The 20-year-old brother who was too lazy to go out and get a life? He had that dead, dead look in his eye like he would stalk the first girl to smile at him. I'm telling you, I've SEEN that look before. Okay, that's all. Just wanted to know if anyone else got the creepy-loser-stalker vibe from him.

And the reason we are seeing repeats is because the morbidly obese members of the Booty Camp are recovering from their top secret gastric bypasses. Oh wait, I mean they are "hitting the gym" and "steaming broccoli" while reading Dr. Phil's book.

HA! It's your fault I snarfed chicken noodle soup, El DeMarge.

Yeah, I think the ep is a repeat as well. Was Monday's show the only non-repeat?

Yes- according to the email update I get from Dr P.

What a revolting arrangement. "Here, honey, I won't get ugly if you bestow upon me another young'un"....

You know, I think Dr. Phil has major fat-people issues. Every time someone comes on the show who's overweight, he adds, "Well, you know, you're going to DIE, because you're unhealthy, and you can't possibly be happy either."

Does he rip a new asshole to smokers? That's even more unhealthy, but you never hear him sidetrack a show to rant about it.

I know that he's right that there _are_ serious health risks associated with obesity, and I agree that it's a serious problem in our culture. But I watch the WLC and feel like he's saying, "Listen up: you can't ever be attractive, successful, or loved unless you're a size six." The Booty Camp people talk about How Much Has Changed - and I'm happy for them - but what happened to remembering that being thin won't make you happy, and you have to discover the emotional reasons for your eating and weight or it's never going to change?!


I have to say, I think that having the _idea_ that you'll wait until you're married, if you're currently 13, isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, if you're thinking "I'll wait until I'm in love" or "I'll wait until I'm sufficiently emotionally ready to handle it" -- maybe you'll think that's next year, when you're Totally In Love with that guy you've been out with twice.

At 13, I thought I was going to wait until I was married. I didn't, but I did wait until I was in college, in a serious, committed relationship, and could re-evaluate whether it was really important to me that I be married first.


I've known guys who were dumped because the girl wanted sex right away and the guy wasn't ready yet and said so.


Professor Soap: if it weren't for the aforementioned mr. bell, I'd join your line of suitors. Not just for your enlightened commentary, but also your use of the word "Fucktard."

Hmmm. What are your thoughts on polygamy?


My theory for _Tuesday's_ show being a repeat was the possible ditching of the non-functional FUF2, but that doesn't cover all week.

Oprah is airing re-runs this week too...don't know how those shows' schedules work, but they seem to take off some time early in year, thus the re-runs...and since Harpo produces DP's show, maybe he follows Oprah's schedule as well (or at least similar...).

IMHO, it was a good idea since it got him on Dr. Phil (which lead to the headhunter and probably a real job). I'm sure Dr. Phil gets thousands of letters a week from wives who have husbands out of work and having a husband who is Dude-On-The-Corner probably makes someone's letter stand out from the masses.

Of course, when I was watching Corner Man and Mrs. Corner Man I kept asking myself, "Why hasn't she gotten a job yet? Why does it all fall on him?"

I'm glad you liked the term Fucktard which can also be used as Fucktarded!

I actually came across it one of of my soap boards and it's now one of my most treasured words.

I guess it's a contraction of either "fucking retard" or "are you fucking retarded?"

Mine is that it's Spring Break and all the parents are telling their college kids not to be like them. It seems to be "stupid moron" week, even if they are repeats.

Bwah! Yeah, and regardless of what they tell you, those things take a while to recover from. We might be in for a whole month o' reruns.

I agree that Phil has a problem with people who are overweight. It's a health risk. But you know what? So is smoking (as someone said), drinking too much, driving too fast, etc, etc, etc. He constantly harps on it and it does get on my nerves. Getting thin will not magically make your life perfect. You can be happy and be overweight. Really. It isn't the magic on/off happy switch of life.

Wordy mcword, Bellemmers. I used to be a real skinny smoker and then quit and gained. ( I wont say how much because I prefer that you all picture me just like Audrey Hepburn.) Every time I see my doctor I gripe about it and say I hold him responsible for the whole mess. He always says that a person needs to gain about 200 pounds of fat before they are at greater risk than the smoking would have caused.

I think that's a disgusting promise for DP to ask Robin to make. Why not just say, "My love is completely conditional on the size of your waist." He's one heck of a soft place to fall, that Phil.