How do you graduate from college and not be able to write a check? or as Jay would say, "H'ge gradyte f'colg and not byable t'write check?"

How about by not having a Daddy rich enough to open a bank account and fill it full of money for us. My parents paid for my room and board and after that I was out of bucks unless Grandma sent me a fiver in a birthday card.

I hate Jay.

Doesn't Phil say that he stopped working as a therapist because (paraphrasing) too many of his patients showed up week after week and didn't follow his advice and couldn't move on and so he would zone out when his patients talked or bristle at their non-cooperation? Funny that he recognized that this was unfair (and destructive) to someone in therapy who would not meet Phil's timetable so he chucked that to become involved in coaching litigants before their trial. There he'd still be if Oprah hadn't found him and he got to see mega wealth up close. He'd already decided that he was not effective doing one on one therapy, but boy did Oprah have it made, and it all began with a talk show!

So, what does he do? Invite those same folks he couldn't bear in private practice on his show, give them a few weeks of camera exploitation, verbal comeuppance and wake-up calls (have mercy) before hustling them off the stage with a fistful of prizes. The fact that he's setting up follow through help after these folks are gone doesn't hold much water when you realize that they could have had that all along.

I like a few of his ideas, too. But more and more his "getting it right" in regards to parenting children seems like Phil's version of getting the trains to run on time.


ETA: ITA about Jay. With a trust fund as big as your's you have no right to look down on the mere mortals who have loans and work study jobs and Pell grants. Borrow a page from some of the Kennedys and get out there and get your hands dirty, up close and personal with the lower classes. Twerp.

You know, I'm finding this show rather depressing. Wrapped up in a neat bow, indeed. Marty and Erin's 'season finale'- what is that? are they coming back for round 2? - I just kept thinking that not. one. thing. has. changed. Marty is still lyin' and denyin'. Alex still can't keep her knees together for one minute. Kathryn is still a bit of an insecure shrew attacking at every whim. Erin and Marty's marriage is still in trouble. The only thing that has changed is the addition of poor Nathan.

If Phil hadn't gotten involved, that poor child might have gone to a good 2-parent home rather than stuck with Alex.

I've watched this family's series pretty regularly and, except for Kathryn actually getting WORSE for awhile, absolutely nothing has changed.

Yes, Jay. Shut up. God, he looked so slack-jawed and "duhhh???" the whole time the students were talking to him.

Came here to post that I think I saw Phil and his stupid-ass diet on the cover of TV Guide. Why that man merits the cover of anything with his revolutionary "eat right and exercise" "ideas", I do not know.

This bugs me more than anything else, even more than Chris's stoopid golf dreams, about FUF#2: Dr. Shill should be coming down REALLY HARD on this woman about maintaining contact with the baby she GAVE UP FOR ADOPTION, and which is now legally ANOTHER COUPLE'S CHILD. Sorry for the caps but I'm very cross about this! The adpotive couple needs to move away, change their phone number and stay far, far away from mad, controlling StacyBitch. Oh, and they should also change the kid's name from that stupid "Bohdan." Just my 2 cents.

I hate Jay too.

I have been one of the fortunate ones: I managed to find work using my English degree. I was a textbook editor for four years. Other than that, it has been strictly administrative and clerical work for me. There certainly isn't ANYTHING wrong with that type of work (I'm the daughter of a career secretary), but it is a little galling that I worked so hard for so long to get my diploma (many financial bumps in the road along the way), and it basically counts for shit.

My professional paralegal certificate has opened more doors for me, actually. I still can't manage to find a job in this economy. And I live in the fifth largest city in the United States.

I did just finish my first book, which is positive.

Did I mention how upsetting it is to me to see Chris coming and going as he pleased at a job I would KILL to have? I would love to work in academic advisement; having had a rough time in school myself, I think my life experience would be a plus. What does Chris have to offer, other than how to emulate a jellyfish?



I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on television...but I am a paralegal, and I can address this question. My impression is that in the legitimate therapeutic world, Shill is now viewed as a charlatan, a fraud. Although his show is carefully touted as "entertainment," Shill still manages to use an awful lot of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques in most every show. One would think that as long as Shill insists on using the "Dr." in his title, he would be subject to the standards and practices of the American Psychiatric Association or licensing groups just like it.

As far as legal action against Shill for malpractice...most certainly. Anyone can bring a lawsuit against anyone at any time. Waiver or no waiver. A court of law would determine whether or not the suit would have merit. As I said, I ain't a law-talkin' guy (TM Lionel Hutz)...but I have seen things that Shill has pulled with his guests that REEK of malpractice and "intentional infliction of emotional distress." I'm specifically speaking about Marty from FUF1. I hate Marty with a passion, but the ambush Shill pulled a couple of weeks ago was one of the most fucked-up things I have ever seen on a talk show, and I was a devoted viewer of The Morton Downey Jr. Show back in the day. Shill just heaped more and more crap upon this guy until Marty just sat there like a castrated deer in the headlights. It was sickening. I don't like the guy, but I agreed with Marty 110% when he said backstage, "This is bullshit."

"Reckless infliction of emotional distress" might be a good one, too...if a guest could prove that Shill toyed with them and their emotions sheerly for the sport of it, sheerly for the purpose of making shocking television. In other words, recklessly playing with emotions with no thought whatsoever for the consequences. I hate Stacy more than Manson, I think, but what Shill pulled with her backstage where he basically bullied her into having a breakdown was nothing short of disgusting. The woman is pregnant, for Christ's sake. She should not be forced to cry and grovel like that. It ain't good for the baby.

I wonder if lil' borokat has decided to make his or her debut yet.

Huzzah! Finally getting to make a post after all these days of reading the archives!

Deep Red, I totall agree with you! When you give a child up for adoption, that kid just isn't your son/daughter anymore, that's why adoption is such a tough choice, and why they used to rely on anonymity. Now, I'm no criminalist but Stacy totally, totally, totally seems like one of those "TV Movie of the Week" women, who steal “their” baby back from adoptive parents. I swear, this show couldn’t draw a better picture of a sociopath if they tried.

Hee, hee and HEE!

How far along is Stacy? I thought you aren't supposed to fly in your 3rd trimester.

Prediction - they will be divorced just in time for the follow-up show in the Fall.

I doubt it. Once Marty found out it was a boy, he really wanted Alex to keep that baby, and that girl will do anything to get attention and approval from men.

I don't see why his use of "Dr." has anything to do with the APA. The APA is not a licensing board, and he uses "Dr." because he earned a doctorate at some uiniversity somewhere. I mean, I hate DP, but he's not acting as a licensed therapist on this show and any guests who are stupid enough to think he is pretty much deserve what they get.

Finally, FUF#2 is at least getting some stuff they need. They could never afford to send Michael to his residential program. They could never afford the over-the-summer therapy the DP show is paying for. The trip to Jamaica and the pandering to Brianne? Not so much needed, and not so much a good idea.

It occurs to me that if your kid is that much in debt after college, it's because you didn't (1)save for their college edumication or (2) teach them where money came from. I'm only saying this because I hate to the dissing of the student loan thing; that is unavoidable. Come on, Dr. Philter-Pheeder.

The only reason why I say this is because, I mean, no wonder so many kids don't know how to manage money after school. Either (as mentioned above) mom and dad paid for everything, so they don't know how to deal with the stuff, or they had to borrow every dime (whether they knew how to manage money or not) and of course they owe now. Where are we supposed to learn to manage our money, the back of a cereal box?

I put myself through college and law school with student loans, and I am in debt up to my eyeballs. But it's school debt, so I always try to convince myself it's "good' debt. I guess I chose the behavior of actually getting an education, so I have chosen the consequences of having student debt.


Oh, Jay, cry me a river. Did the poor poor thing have to do a work-study job one summer? Aww...

Sorry about the anger, it just pisses me off when kids are never prepared to handle finances then are blamed for not being able to handle them.

I was really looking forward to today's show, and I was disappointed. Did he give them any tools, really? Or did he just say you had unrealistic expectations, now go get a job? As if it were that easy? I have two degrees (thankfully I did not have to incur debt for it, and I do not have a car) but I have realistic expectations. I know what things cost and I am paranoid about money. I am a smart person and a hard worker. And---I have been "laid off" from the last two jobs I had, the most recent being about a week ago when they told me they loved me, I was fabulous and they just did not have enough work. So what am I supposed to do? I don't even want a particularly fabulous job. I will take a crappy job if someone---anyone---will hire me and KEEP me. It's just so depressing to be doing the job-hunting thing again only 3 months after doing it the last time. So what advice does Dr. Phil have for me? Nothing. Just 'don't get credit cards' and 'have realistic expectations.' Um, thanks.

I agree that DP didn't give them any tangible tools at all, but as a 40-something, I was stunned at the inflated expectations of these 'kids'. No one starts at high salaries in senior positions right after college - where are young people getting this idea?!! I mean, the only people I've ever known to start at salaries like $100,000 are lawyers and Wall Streets with advanced degrees from Ivy League schools and who work 70-90 hours a week (no lie) in top firms in places like NYC. And the hours don't decline anytime soon either.

It also seemed that several of them are so stuck on this "I have to know what I'm supposed to do with my life RIGHT NOW and to have/find that totally awesome job" - WTF? As they'll soon learn, life is a process through which you are constantly making choices about which way to go - and often (sometimes very often) you change those choices as you grow/change as a person.

It's like they expect to have that 'dream life' right now, just out of college, like a gift all wrapped up and looking perfect/pretty all the time. Boy, they need to learn (as my mom told me many years ago) that "life is very daily" - there will be days where you're bored, where you hate even your dream job, but you just do what you have to do and keep going.

And some of them didn't seem to be willing to do the work to even begin to get there. I started in PR at the bottom and didn't mind doing the 'grunt' work. Nowadays I see young grads in PR who 'can't be bothered to do that'. Yet that's one way I learned all the ins and outs and developed very important skills.

And that gal who taught school but couldn't handle the 'bad days' -- reality alert to her: Don't have kids. If you can't handle a few bad days teaching, you'll never handle screaming babies, needy children, etc., etc. She was unbelievable naive and entitled, probably the most stunning one of them all (IMO).

I don't mean to sound so harsh, but I was totally stunned. But then given the young couples I see going into $60,000,$70,000, even $100,000 debt for a fairy-tale wedding (and yes, even middle class couples), I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Makes me very thankful I grew up when I did when expectations were way lower!! (And this is not to say that all young college grads are this way -- I know plenty who are completely grounded, working hard, doing what it takes, managing their budgets, but it does seem to be a major problem these days with new grads, far more than past generations).

ETA: IMO, Credit card companies should be banned from college campuses. That's like giving candy to a baby and I'm sure if I'd had one that young, I would have gone into mega-debt too. Talk about predatory!

It doesn't help that the cost of education has skyrocketed at a must faster rate than inflation. College (and don't even get me started on grad school!) is more expensive as adjusted for the cost of living that it was in, say, my father's day or even when I was in college 10 years ago. It's simply staggering and unless you are very lucky, or very smart (and don't even get me started on how few scholarships there are!) you are in massive debt.

Mr.Jean and I both have respective grad loan bills and I have undergrad. We both work very hard, somethimes hard work has nothing to do with it, you are still going to have to borrow. We've spent the last three years doing nothing but paying the credit cards down and amazingly, we have found ourselves with only one card left, no store cards either, with a balance we think we will be able to take care of in the next few months.


It's sad when you think that the cool thing about Federal loan debt being extinguished upon yor death is that if you die, and you still owe them money, you win!!!!

Edited to add: I knew you weren't talking about school debt BibiBella, I should have stated as much! I get very overwhelmed by how much I owe sometimes and tend to get very excited and not make myself clear. Then the elevator music (Lady from Impanema) in my head starts and I feel much better....

KimberleeJean, I agree, the cost of a college education these days -- even a public colleges - is unbelievable. I can't believe how 'cheap' my education was (in comparison) and I went out of state!

That said, I'm talking (in my earlier post) about stupid debt -- credit card debt, not student loans. That relates completely to expectations being too high, expecting to live just as they did at home or in college (if Mom/Dad were paying for everything). A lot of that first gal's debt (about 1/2, IIRC) was from credit cards alone.

And as I said earlier, I was STUNNED that these 'kids' expect to start in jobs paying so much money and at mid to senior levels. Where does that come from? Since you sound young, maybe you can help me understand that...

I think Shill was too hard on girl #1. I don't think she had realistic expectations or was lazy or spoiled. I just think she financed her education with student loans, and then got caught in the same credit card trap that about 95% of Americans are in. Dr. Phil kept trying to shame her, harping on the fact that she had all these enormous debts. But I think most financial advisers will agree that student loans are "good debt". It's an investment in your future, like a mortgage.

He also made snotty little remarks about the things she bought, saying that she couldn't keep buying "cute little tops" and not paying off her debt. (Didn't she say that she was using credit cards to pay her utilities? What did he want her to do, go with out electricity?) Not only that, he tried to shame her about her "Mexican sabbatical," saying she couldn't afford it, and when she tried to explain it, and defend herself by saying that she didn't have any debt at the time, he just made jokes at her expense.

Girls number 2 and 3 were both rather childish, expecting that they would be able to find "totally awesome jobs" that are never boring or annoying. But Dr. Phil didn't help them at all, just made fun of them, too.

And what does Dr. Shill's big-butted son have to do with anything? He has never had to work hard and pay his dues and slave away at shitty entry-level clerical positions. His Daddy puts him on t.v. where he probably makes more than any of us. Hmph.

ETA: I don't think any of these guests expected to make six figures right out of college. One of them (they are all running together right now) said she was envious of her friends who WERE making six figures, but she also said that she didn't expect to graduate college and then have to slave away for 4 years before she hit the $30-40k salary range. I think most college kids probably thing they will start out at $30-40k, then steadily get richer. And I think they expect that because their professors and guidance counselors are telling them to expect that, not taking into account today's economy.

Thank you BibiBella for taking the time to write what I was gonna say!
It's been 15 yrs since I graduated with my undergrad. I'm currently working on my Masters in a very different field... one I would have never imagined.
Looking back, a.) I still can't believe kids at 18 are expected to know what they want to do with their lives, let alone be expected to be trusted with credit cards, and b.) It has to be very rare that what one envisions at 18-22 is NOT going to change 20 yrs later. These kids expect to grab the sheepskin and step into a corner office. WRONG!! These children are looking for THE perfect job first off without having to pay their dues. WWWHHHAAAATTTT???

It was frustrating as heck at the time, but I'm SO grateful I could not get a credit card while I was in college. It was not until I got my first real job and I had to go down to the bank and insist on one! Talk about a blessing in disguise.
I don't know who's more pitiful these kids or the parents who raised them.
LOVE the way these kids are so concerned about being married! They can't even take care of themselves. No... they're not even fully matured!
That "teacher" gal needs to get Toto to tell her they're not in KS anymore.

As for the gal who worked on DrP's show: Seriously now.... WHO would you want running your show? .... Someone straight out of school or someone with a few years under their belt actually working the ins and outs of a business? These kids are SO not in touch with reality. Let's break it down to a level the kiddies might understand: WHO would you want to pick out your shoes? George Costanza or Jack McFarland? See.... that's the difference in "being qualified"!

Sidebar: (Side note): When they do the video "storys"... could we get past the taping the people shown on the monitor instead of just showing the people??
Is that supposed to be like hip or something?

Drummouse, I think some of those folks are gonna have major rude awakenings as they get older and discover - egads! - that what they thought they wanted at 22 or 23 is not at all what they now want at 35 or 40. I want so many different things now (mid-40's) than I even wanted 10 years ago, so they will be in store for some rude awakenings, I'm betting.

I do think expectations from this generation are over-the-moon. Oprah even had a show last year with the two authors (both in their late 20's) of a book called "The Quarter Life Crisis" (takeoff, of course, of the phrase "mid-life crisis).

It seems (from their book and research) that growing up - even in the most middle class families - where they were given so many things and opportunities (and didn't have to get part-time jobs or anything, as many from my generation had to do) and then entering the job market during the tech boom -- and during a period where you have teenage stars making millions (same with 18 year old basketball stars who go straight into the NBA - there was practially none of that when I graduated in 1981 from college) that they naturally expected to have 'all that' immediately after college. I feel sorry for these folks 'cause if they think moving from college to real life is hard, god knows how they'll fare in something like marriage.

Of course, this is also part of why the divorce rates are so high, I'd bet, since it seems so many people these days are willing to throw in the towel when things get tough instead of working it out. (I'm surprised the teacher gal - who couldn't handle a few bad days at school - was even lasting in a marriage given her spoiled attitude!).

Even worse than some of what was on the show today was an article I read last year about kids going to college totally clueless. One dean of students reported that she had one student who had never filled her gas tank so she was stunned when the 'car quit moving'. Turns out her dad had always done that! And another (like one person on the show) who didn't know how to write a check. Unbelieveable.

Drummouse, not sure what you meant by your sidebar - can you explain?


Maybelline, I see new college grads who routinely expect to start at $40-50,000, even in a field like public relations where no one makes that starting out (and many jobs - esp. with liberal arts degrees - don't pay that starting out, esp. in smaller cities). And even worse, they aren't willing to do the 'grunt' work that is required to learn the business and proper writing skills, etc. They really do (some of 'em) think they should be at a mid-level job immediately. Like that gal on the show who works on DP's show - she thought within a year she'd be producing the show - WTF?!!

I see what you are saying, BibiBella, but I don't think the problem is as simple as "kids these days, they just expect everything to fall in their laps". True, our consumer culture has created a generation of people that want more, and don't want to have to save to get it-they just charge it. But thirty years ago, when Shill got his degree, a bachelor's degree really meant something-it was a ticket to the middle class. But now, as many posters have stated above, a bachelor's degree won't get you anywhere. And college is more expensive than ever.

I guess we should be telling high school kids that they should all look forward to another 10 years of schooling if they want any kind of advantage in the job market, and to never expect job security. Oh, and don't count on owning a home or having kids or a middle-class lifestyle like your parents and grandparents enjoyed; that is, until you have scrimped and saved and sacrificed all through your twenties and most of your thirties. It's a bleak outlook-and it's no wonder that kids these days don't want to believe it.

It's obviously true that these kids have crazy expectations. But it's also statistically true (in Canada, at least) that our generation (mid-20s) is the first to be worse-off than our parents, financially.

If I hear ONE MORE BOOMER telling me how s/he got through university with no debt by working through the summers, I will scream obscenities. That goes for you, too, Jay. It's not possible anymore. In fact, I'd call it a crazy expectation.

Aw, heck, BibiBella, I am a Generation Xer. I seriously have no expectations at all!

Kidding (sorta). I think it's just how it seems, not how it is, because all the young adults working very hard do not have time to go around yapping about how they are entitled, or have time to go on Dr. Phil-er-up and whine.

I worked my ass off for my degrees. My baccalaureate, I basically paid for myself, both by working summers, working during the school year, and taking out student loans. I had a couple of scholarships here and there, but I did accrue a significant amount of debt. I also had credit cards, too; credit cards that were run up by the time school was finished. I had to buy clothing for my student teaching, and sometimes I was so broke, I had to charge the necessities of life, like groceries.

No one was more accutely aware of my debt accrual than ME. I wanted to pay it as fast as I could, but my first job out of college was as an $8.00 per hour secretary. I made the payments that I could, but I had more pressing concerns, such as rent and utilities.

It wasn't that I wasn't responsible...I was. I had been raised with a good head on my shoulders about finances. I did what I had to to get that diploma. If it meant debt, well, then, so be it.

Shill and SonofShill need to get off their high horses RIGHT NOW. Debt does not a bad person make, especially if that debt is due to financing school. As for these kids who do not know their ass from their elbow when it comes to money. I BLAME THE PARENTS. When you hand Little Schmoopie every little thing his little heart desires, and cultivate the notion that the world is a shiny happy place designed solely to make him happy, don't be surprised when the little darling has no clue as to how to balance a checkbook. Kids have to learn these things someplace and I put the responsibility for the dropped ball solely on the shoulders of their parents.

Just one more quick thing, and I'm not mad, but I must say it: a person is not necessarily entitlement-minded and selfish if she doesn't want to deal with screaming children having meltdowns. She is no doubt in the wrong profession, she may have wasted her college education without having a very realistic notion of what being a teacher entails, but she is not a bad person for deciding that working with/being with/having children is not for her. She didn't have to be such a snit about the whole thing, though!

Maybelline, the really scary (IMO) part about our rampant consumerism in this country is that it's starting at younger and younger ages - even kids about 2! Companies target kids that young and the kids respond and then Mom/Dad give in and buy the toy/outfit, etc. If I think that new college grads have a hard time, I fear for the youngins' now. They're being given EVERYTHING (even the most middle class kids - far more than college grads probably got) from this class to that toy to this class to that.

And then the parents complain that they 'can't save anything for the future'. Well, judging from all the toys, trips, fancy clothes, brand-new SUV's, etc. I see with middle class families I know (and don't forget eating out a lot), no wonder they can't save! And used to be a time kids only got gifts for holidays, birthday, maybe a gift if dad went on a business trip. But I routinely see parents buying kids toys left and right all the time - which, of course, diminishes (IMO) the special-ness of birthday and holiday gifts. And it breeds in kids that entitlement sense, so I blame a lot of parents nowadays for creating kids who don't know limits (like some of these kids on the show).

So, yes, I agree, materialism and consumerism in this country has created a whole new type of consumer - "I want it and I want it now and since I now have credit cards, I can have it now!" Used to be a time when college kids couldn't get credit cards...heck, when I got out of college, it too me 3 years or so before I even qualified for an American Express card. Other than that, I only had a gas card which was easy to maintain since you have to pay it monthly (same with AmEx).

One point which I differ with you about: a college degree, from all I've seen, is STILL worth something today. Every company I've worked at will not interview people unless they have a bachelor's degree - it shows persistance, dedication, etc.

And for many fields - public relations (my field) - an advanced degree makes no difference. In fact, when my old agency used to have folks with advanced degrees interview for starting jobs (they had gone from undergrad straight to grad school), these folks were stunned that having an advanced degree did not translate into more money to start - thus leaving them with a bigger problem since they now had even bigger student loans having gone to grad school. Starting out in many fields gives you the same salary, bachelor or advanced degree. So it's not the best thing for many folks to get an advanced degree depending on their job field.

For the first woman, Phil mentioned that he was going to speak of how she could handle her situation. Did he ever? She talked of not qualifying for CCCS, and Phil preached a bunch, but I didn't hear any concrete solutions given. At least three friends of mine found themselves, in their mid-twenties, twenty or thirty thousand dollars in debt. They took such radical steps as getting a roommate, working a part time job in addition to their full time job, and drastically cutting back on their spending. One friend would work full time at her part time job when she was on vacation from her regular job. It sucked, but it earned her the freedom later, when everything was paid off.

So, what did today's show teach us? Twenty something women expect interesting jobs in their fields, with a starting salary in the six figures, a husband, no debt, and the lifestyle that mom and dad got her used to. Give me a break, Phil and Jay! Isn't it interesting that Jay interviewed a coed group, but the featured guests were all female, as were the ditzes on the street who didn't know who Dick Cheney was?

Big Ol' WORD to that!
It's not that a bachelor's diploma is the equivalent of Charmin.... it's what you do with it and while you were earning it.
Without a college degree, you can pretty much fuhgedabout even darkening the door of a real job.
I think a big mistake often made is these spoiled kids or the totally clueless kids on permanent cruise control don't make the most of the college years.
I understand the freshman year and all it's newness, but by at least the sophmore year one needs to be "getting real" (pardon the DrP-ism).

For example, I'm finishing my first year of Graduate studies in a field that requires working intensely with others. Even before I started, I was looking for how to advance MYSELF... not depending on school to cover all the bases. I read all I can and volunteer in the field to get that "real life" experience beyond the books. I have classmates who are still trying to figure it out and waiting for opportunity to knock on the door (an idea that does not end in your 20's with undergrads).
Not only do you get the "hands on" honest experience, but it can sure make a resume stand out... and these days that can be the difference in getting a job.

I did agree with DrP when he talked about having to get out there and do the intro, low-paying (if at all) stuff to get the experience.
The difference between winners and losers are winners do the stuff losers don't want to. (I actually heard that before DrP ever said it.) :-)


I did notice that. Actually, I was trying to figure out exactly why Jay was on there to begin with. But what is with DrP getting off with dogging females so often? Is it a power thing for him? This has been a big week for him! It's getting a tad too frequent and a touch too obvious.

Excuse me but what does the Son of Shill possibly know about 'the real world'? Give me a break, like the Crown Prince of Nepotism hasn't been handed everything to him on a silver platter. The biggest crisis in his life will be when he realizes that his hairline has started to recede...

Wordy-word! I mean, supposedly he's in law school (at SMU in Texas) but he's on the show so often that I wonder if he dropped out and is living off dad. He certainly, IMO, doesn't know about 'real world' living - 'cause even if he is still in law school, you know Papa Phil is paying his entire way.

I don't begrudge him that (having dad pay for law school), but what I do begrudge him for is talking to everyone as if he knows about the big bad real world. And does his voice always sound like he's heavily constipated?! I never noticed that until today.

It depends on the situation. I go to a public university part-time and work full-time. I'll have my credit card debt paid off in a few months and I've never applied for student loans. Of course this means it's taking me forever to finish my degree, but I'm ok with that.

Why didn't the guest qualify for CCCS?

I can't remember if DP mentioned this or not, but a big reason why credit card companies target students is because the schools themselves sell their student lists to these companies. I think that's pretty shitty, especially since most don't offer budgeting courses.

And you know what I just recalled? DP is being sued for non-payment of debt! Hello, Pot? What a jackass!!!

First of all, in addition to all of her other Totalled Woman duties as Patriarch Phil's concubine and slave, it is Robin who handles all of the McGraw finances so Jay, Jordan, and Phil probably don't do most of the financial wizardy in that house and she probably has an accountant and business manager to take care of most of their stuff. As I recall, the debt that Phil is being sued over is by some corporate jet company he used and then supposedly did not pay.

People's comments have been really insightful and intelligent.

Anyone who grew up middle or upper class (even those who were not excessively indulged) is used to (and possibly hooked) on a lifestyle that they cannot possibly afford on an entry-level salary. To make matters worse, even beyond not being able to live large, that same entry-level salary often cannot provide even a half-way decent standard of living to say nothing of it being stacked-up against thousands of dollars in consumer and student loan debt which has often been taken out just to survive and (hopefully) build a better future.

It really is the worst Catch-22 of all time. No skills and education means no money, and conversely, no money means no education and skills. And considering the current cost of graduate school, student loans (rarely) cover all of one's tuition and living expenses so to say that people can simply take-out a loan and make it through school is misleading. They may (barely) be able to make tuition but what are they going to live on?

And also don't forget, because we have no protective socialized infrastructure to see to the young, the students, the sick, the elderly, the unemployed, or women with children, extended periods of marginal employment or unemployment can increase both the debt-load and the level of poverty and people can fall through the cracks like you wouldn't believe. People need to be held accountable and guided to make the right choices, but the entire playing-field has gotten ridiculous.

Also, inflation really and truly has sky-rocketed since our parent's and grandparent's time. Most successful middle-class people used to be able to pay for their kid's education and living expenses out of pocket and kids starting out could live decently if not lavishly. Even State School tuitions have become prohibitively expensive and you can't borrow the $18,500 for a year of undergraduate school the way you can for graduate school.

Today's young people (even those with skills, Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctoral Degrees) can and do often find themselves starting out the bottom of the heap in terms of income (with middle aged levels of debt and economic responsibility). This is magnified and worsened by a sky-high cost of living and is exacerbated by debt (many of which was taken out simply to survive and become more marketable and had nothing to do with shopping sprees or wanting to call your Madre from within the midst of a Dionysian Orgy on South Padre during Spring Break).

Young people may have unrealistic expectations but it's partially based on where they came from and it's likely a protective form of denial because who REALLY wants to think they busted their asses to start out at a slave level income and to lose their entire life-style they've known all their lives. As far as I'm concerned the Poverty Line isn't $18,000, that's too low. In most urban areas you need to be making somewhere between $40,000 and $80,000 to live fairly well.

And I am so sick of hearing this Pay Your Dues Bullshit because it's always offered up by successful, safe, and established people and used to villify and judge (and frequently to justify their exploitation of) those who are starting-out and suffering. I have no objection to young people starting at the bottom in terms of skills and responsibilities (that's what they are qualified for) but I very much do have a problem with them starting out poor, under-educated, under-skilled, and lacking any other support system. But that's what happens when you live in a slash and burn capitalist economy which is why our infra-structure is so rotten and our society is falling apart.

The workplace of today wants skilled and experienced professionals and not kids with a dream and a winning attitude. If you've got nothing to offer them, then they've got nothing to offer you. Every current work skill I have from work came from being an AA in offices and a CSR in retail and from what I picked up in therapy. I did in fact FINALLY finish my Master's Degree after six grueling years and am now poised to make my own comeback as well. It should have only taken 2-2.5 but I had to work in the equivalent of the salt mines! And I worked and worked hard ever since High School, I just didn't make any money. It's a lot like an engine and transmission relationship, you can be revving your engine to the red-line but if you are in neutral, or first, or second gear, no amount of work will yield results.

Snowdog, they didn't explain why the guest didn't qualify for CCCS but I can guess why. I had a friend several years back who had something like $20,000 debt and she was only making about $35,000.

She went to CCCS and they told her (just like the guest) that there was 'nothing they could do for her' - that's because her debt was so great and her income so low (in regard to the debt) that even working with the CC companies, they wouldn't be able to help her since she wouldn't have enough money (even at a reduced interest rate) to make the payments. She finally got a family friend to loan her a major chunk of the money and she paid her back over something like five years, but at no interest (very close family friend with a lot of $$). To do that, she found 2 roommates in a cheaper apartment and cut out extras.

So I think this guest is in the same spot - which is why bankruptcy may be her only option. However, I think I heard her say that she owns her own condo, so she'd probably be better off selling that (if she can make a profit) and using that money to pay down the debt. And in the meantime, rent a room or find a roomie in a cheap apartment.


to DR. AL

You wrote:


That's totally off base for many of us who have made that point. I work in public relations and I'm talking about new associates who don't want to even learn the art of editing (which is one of the best ways to learn to write well) - they just want to do the more glamorous stuff, none of the stuff required to learn the business and develop one's skills (heck, their grammar skills are scary and yet they don't want any help with that or how to develop their writing skills). Yes, that might mean doing your own photo-copying since no one has a secretary, but heck, even the middle managers are doing that themselves too!

So please don't describe us in a way that isn't true. Some of us have mentored many young people and are interested in helping them develop the talents and skills that will help them advance. But with some of the entitled attitudes I've seen ("I don't do editing, I don't do this or that"), they won't get far...and sometimes, yes, it does include learning the most 'base' elements of an industry and a job to succeed. It's not exploitation by all of us in higher positions - it's called learning the biz and learning to develop your craft.

Believe me, when I started out in PR (a notoriously low-paying job), I had to have 3 roommates, brown-bag it to work every day, take no vacations for a few years (except for a trip to the family Christmas) and do many other things to make my way. So we too 'suffered' to get going in our careers.

BibiBella, are you in fact my mother?

If not, you wanna adopt a 33 year old unemployed paralegal and freelance writer?

Dr. Al, you know how much I love you...but I agree about with My Adopted Mommy about this whole "being safe" bit and vilifying the fuckups of the world. I'm one of the biggest losers on the planet and even I will say to those kids today, "get your act together!"

I may be unemployed, I may be a bit of a drain on soceity, but dammit, I worked to get here. I didn't expect anyone to pay my dues or pave my way.

I will absolutely agree with you on one thing: it is HORRIBLE to be poor after having enjoyed a reasonably nice lifestyle whilst growing up. We weren't rich, but we were middle class...and during my "eating only ramen noodles and stealing bus fare from my roommates (not my proudest moment)" phase, it was awfully hard to think back to the days where I lived in a place with air conditioning, or had phone service at the ready.

(Cue Grandpa Simpson's voice) It does seem that the youth of today are so taken with their own notion of self-esteem that they are unwilling to accept entry-level anything. Their sense of self-worth is so overinflated, they cannot fathom the notion of being a receptionist before becoming executive assistant, or working in the copy room until a better position in the company opens up. Exacerbating matters for someone like me: companies are increasingly buying into this bullshit and hiring these little darlings into advanced positions...for pennies on the dollar of what they would have to pay more experienced (older) workers. If this has happened to me once, it has happened twenty thousand times: being passed over for a younger, cheaper worker.

In other words, if you are having some legal work done, double-check your paperwork. Chances are it was prepared by some young semi-literate with delusions of grandeur and mistaken notions of self-esteem.

Wordy-word, maggiegault!! And the caliber of work - done by ill-prepared and unexperienced workers - is often hideous. All because companies have hired folks into positions for which they were very underqualified.

And wordy-word about the overinflated self-esteem. I remember when a whole 'self-esteem' movement began about 20 years or so ago (in California). It began in grade school and since "we wanted every one to feel so good about themselves", the schools eliminated all grades...everyone just passed. Certain play games were eliminated since they were 'competitive' and might 'make kids feel bad about themselves.' The kids were told constantly how wonderful and unique and special they are (yes, it's important for kids to know that, but not being told all the time and with no limits or challenges). This may sound ridiculous, but it is a system still in place in some schools.

The results of this? Some of the most screwed up, insecure people who think they're the center of the world because their parents and teachers all told them so. This stupid movement (and by the way, many parents today follow this method of child-rearing and the results I'm seeing are horrifying) is one reason why a lot of young kids won't start in an entry-level or 'less than awesome, glamorous' job. Experts will tell anyone that self-esteem comes from accomplishments, not by being praised and adored all day long without any responsibilities or challenges.

I know well-meaning middle and upper middle-class families with kids who are so spoiled and who have never had limits set - so now that they're in pre-school, they are little Holy Hells. One child threw such horrific tantrums (because she had never learned limits) that the school told the parents that she had to leave the school unless she got psychological help.

In this case, I happen to agree with you both so please take no offense at my remarks, Bibi. I wasn't specifically referring to you. Rather, I was referring to the notion of what many people currently think Putting In Your Dues means which is far beyond what it originally meant. When last I checked, Putting In Your Dues applied to doing lower-level work and working your way up in terms of responsiblity and power, it did not mean a necessary period of dwelling in debt, poverty, and squalor!

I agree with you that people starting out in any field (within reason) need to be willing to do pretty much anything to learn the in's and out's of what's applicable to their field from the ground-floor up. There really are a lot of Clueless and Entitled kids and that is a real problem. But so is a society that doesn't feel any remorse about exploiting or discarding or not developing people and that doesn't give a shit about either what happens to them or the price we all pay in the present and wil pay in the future.

I think the self-esteem movement may have moved into narcissistic grandiosity but I think the intent was (originally) a good one. I think the right balance lies in kids learning to appreciate and respect and develop their strengths, improve what is improvable, and accept their limitations and weaknesses and that others will be better and more successful then them at certain things. With that knowledge, they can then capitalize on who and what they are (and what they are good at) rather then feel shame or humiliation or settle for a lesser life because of what they are not.

DR. AL, thanks for clarifying what you meant. We're on the same page in terms of "paying your dues".

I'm not much of an economist or historian, but what boggles my mind these days is the cost of college (even public ones)...can anyone explain why the cost has increased so exponentially? I can see why kids are so in debt after college given how pricy it's become...but I'd love it if someone could explain why the cost has risen so dramatically over the past 15-20 years (I finished in 1981 and my out-of-state tuition was $850 a semester - total of $1700 a year. Very cheap compared to today especially given that it was out-of-state fare!).

If the self-esteem movement was how you described it, it could be very good. But it has scarred many kids since the 'big world' out there doesn't just adore you and give you a 'passing ' grade 'just for being you'. Kids do have to learn about competition (and yes, that will mean hurt feelings sometimes) since the world is competitive, even in the best sense, such as competing for a job with other applicants or competing to make your business work. But the self-esteem movement, from what I've observed, makes competition seem like a really evil thing.

Reading the posts since this exchange, I appreciate all the clarifications made.
However, since I was one of the so called "successful, safe and established people", I would like to add my 2 cents. I find this VERY demeaning and insulting. I have put in my time and prayers and efforts to maintain and stay out of debt. I admit, I had help with my undergrad tuition but that came from a trust fund after my grandfather was killed in the Hyatt tragedy of 1981. Would I trade it all in to have him back?? DAMN STRAIGHT I WOULD!!

So please, FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, DO NOT bunch me in with a bunch of spoiled brats who were spoiled to the point of doing more harm than good. And today, I'm working to put myself thru Grad school so I can better myself all the more and get in a field where I can help others. I nickel and dime my budget, I don't take vacations and I shop at the Goodwill but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the greater good and to follow my calling.

(Nothing personal, Dr. Al. I thoroughly enjoy your posts and learn more from what you have to say in a few paragraphs than I do from an hour of DrP.)

whew.... I feel better now.... thanks....

This is exactly my point though---what about those of us who DO have realistic expectations but still are not getting anywhere? I had a long talk about this with my mother tonight and basically her advice was to believe in myself and stop watching talk shows, which did not help either. I just want my foot in the door, somewhere where I can do something useful. I have no problems at all doing 'entry level' work. I will do anything, literally. ANYTHING. But nobody will offer me even that. I go to job interviews, I go to informational interviews, and they all tell me I am a lovely and talented person and they really like me but they just don't have the jobs (and this is in PR/advertising, Bibi). I have no problem at all with expectations. I will clean the office fridge if that's what they want me to do. I just want a job, any job. And as for salary---enough to pay for rent and food would be nice, and I don't think it's 'unrealistic' to expect that much out of life---is it?

Glad, I could clarify Bibi because we DEFINITELY see eye to eye on the importance of learning any job or field from the ground-up. I don't want to see people's time and energy wasted or exploited but nobody should be too proud (or ignorant) to do necessary and relevant work in their job or for their company.

I just finished re-watching the show to make sure I got it all. On second viewing, Jay actually wasn't as bad as I expected (Though his idea that Summer Jobs are a cure-all is somewhat fucktarded!). True, he's been living in an affluent cocoon (and has likely received Robin's spring-water colonics) but even he is sensing that the methods and ideals kids are raised with, expect, and what then actually happens in the real world aren't very well-connected or grounded in reality.

By the way Patriarch Phil, the word is Expectation and is not Expectancy.

Actually, PP did hit the nail on the head but (as usual) lost his own well-made point via his mugging and grandiosity. We do raise our children to be dependent and then to prepare and then to perform. I think what EVERYONE is missing out on is that kids require a lot of economic, vocational, and emotional resources during the dependency and prepare phases and that there's ALSO THEN a transitory period between prepare and perform which also requires considerable assistance and investment and which does not (automatically) end with their graduation. Especially since most fields require post-graduate training and certification. I do have one friend who dropped out and "made it" but even he got schooled through work and each position built-on the one before it.

Super-Tankers can't stay afloat until they are properly assembled. At the same time, even when properly assembled, they also won't be able to navigate out of the Drydock and Harbor without with the equipment, skills, and experience of those who have done it before. It is exactly the same with young people and professionals.

To my mind, our entire system of education promotes failure and needs to be overhauled to be set up more like a work-place where kids strengths and weakenesses and interests should be identified, cultivated, and harnessed from the get-go. They should be (properly) paid for being in school and receive bonuses for high-level performance. The system we have right now sucks because kids are expected to mindlessly float along and conform for most of their lives and have virtually no authentic self when it comes their vocational and professional lives. The years leading up to college should be filled with shadowing of professionals of different fields and engaging in appropriate internships so that when it is time for college and graduate school they have a much better idea about where to start (and even under ideal conditions that then will change!). College should not simply be a place where people go to rest, screw, drink, and do nothing. That is a waste of time and resources.

The real problem is that kids (metaphorically) are kept in the womb and dependent for too long and then are shit out into the world with no skills, or experience, or idea about who they can and want to be. Or about the surprising and ever-changing (but gradually improving and integrating) paths that life takes. And the entire transition is dropped on them. And we expect them to survive with so little self-awareness, skills, and training (to say nothing of the lack of resources). It breaks my heart how cruel and inefficient and psychotic a system it is. If they are failing us, in most cases, it is likely because we have already failed to teach and prepare and guide them. I don't know of any kid who dreams of going up and being a deadbeat.

And once again PP insisted on bringing out and showcasing the absolute worst of a generation to make everyone look like fucktarded slackers and to write-off a societal economic meltdown as being the result of poor discretionary spending. As for inflation, I'm not sure how to explain it's origins -- though it's likely tied to population, supply, and demand -- only that (at its end result) it affects the price of everything. I have heard people say that guaranteed student loans enabled the schools to push the price up further and further. However, that was still in response to rising external societal costs and what it actually costs to operate the school and pay the staff.

And word, Spangler, word. In this economy, even the best and brightest of us are having a hard time. And working 40 hours a week should qualify one for life's basic amenities and the opportunity to learn and grow and expand one's skills. When I was starting out I certainly missed the comforts of the nest, but I also knew I wouldn't start at either the top or making top-dollar. Thankfully, I survived (with considerable pain, difficulty, and loss) nonetheless, but whenever I see all the unecessary pain, waste, neglect, abuse, and failure -- in a society that has so much -- it REALLY makes my blood-boil.

DR. AL, brilliantly said...and so very, very true. It's no wonder that folks are burning out of jobs and careers at younger and younger ages today. I do think one place where parents are failing their kids today is that so many are living on auto-pilot (and not all parents, of course). They 're not doing it maliciously, but they are so busy running from job to home to activity to whatever, that kids are not learning what they need (I have a friend who's been a preschool teacher - teaching 4 and 5 year olds - for over 20 years and the stories she tells me of how ill prepared kids are these days - kids from good homes - is mind boggling. Kids don't know how to share a toy or anything AT ALL, they don't know how to use utensils for eating, throw horrific tantrums - problems she once saw with only one or two kids -- all because they're parked in front of a TV all day and not interacted with, not really well parented, etc.). Add into that the overwhelming media onslaught and overscheduled kids and you have a recipe for real problems...which will get worse based on everything I see, observe and read.

That's not to paint a super bleak picture, but I think one of the things ruining this country - and people maintaining sane, happy lives and families - is the overrampant materialism and consumerism we see today. I love really nice things and am all for having things, but my lord, the way people mortgage their future to get it all 'now'. I remember as a child that our living room (there was no den - just a living room) was almost empty - a sofa, end table, a rocking chair and a coffee table. The rest of the room was empty but my mom said it was good for us kids to have plenty of play room! Even with my dad being a lawyer, it was slow starting making any money from that and my parents would not buy furniture until they had the CASH. Unheard of today!

Of course, that's not to say that having 'good debt' (college loans) means that one can never have anything or enjoy life...I'm not saying that. Just that it does seem many folks today (not just new grads, but boomers too) have a spend, spend, spend mentality. That's why we have the lowest rating of savings in this country ever seen.


Masked Spangler, sorry to hear of your tough time finding a job. It's still really bad timing to get into PR and advertising - I've worked in the field for over 20 years and got laid off over 3 years ago and have freelanced here and there since then, with some sizable time gaps in between jobs. The field is starting to pick up again, but still very tight, I'm finding.

I'm doing part-time jobs (several) to bring in an income, things that are flexible enough to allow me to job hunt and interview. Believe me, this isn't where I thought I'd be at this stage of life, but there are many of us mid-career (40's) in this boat. Doesn't make it any better, but at least I do know I'm not alone, just as you aren't (but I know that doesn't make things better!).

FYI: SiameseCatBrother attended SMU law in the mid-90s and tuition then was approx. $30,000/yr. Wonder how many summer jobs Jay-boy is using to finance his education? While some (okay, most) of today's guests were not living in the real world, I know a lot of young people who are and still have a really tough time making it.



Depends on who you talk to whether I'm a boomer (born 10/62), but I was lucky enough to do that. I graduated from college in December 1987 (last time we had a Bush in the White House) and it was hard enough for me and my peers to get decent jobs. This was when PhDs were flipping burgers for minimum wage and you usually had to work 2-3 crappy jobs to make ends meet, but back then you could at least get the 2-3 crappy jobs. Nowadays with the economy in the tank and jobs being sent overseas, etc., it's hard for a lot of people to get even one crappy job which comes nowhere near making ends meet. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone who's willing to work 40 hours a week to have a roof over their head, utilities, food, transportation, being able to go to the doctor or dentist when necessary, etc. and realistically, with the cost of things today vs. minimum wage, that just can't happen no matter how simply they are willing to live.

Unless their parents can provide them with a lot of help, I honestly don't know how young people today can get through college without going into debt.
I recently inherited some money and since I am suffering major job burnout thought I would go back to get my teaching certificate (approx. 2-3 semesters). I do not live extravagantly (SiameseCatBrother calls me miserly and niggardly) and the only debts I have are a house payment and car payment (both of which are very low) and I thought I could probably get by while in school with a working part-time and the inheritance. I almost passed out when I saw that annual tuition for a state university is now about 10 times what it was I graduated in '87. Can't imagine what I'd think if I was looking at a 4-year degree!



Absolutely! And a lot of the times this was with either a single income or a much smaller second income being used strictly to send jr. to college.

I go to see Shrek 2 this afternoon and come home to see the board really jumping!

I have to agree with the poster above on how you cannot expect to know what you are going to do with the rest of your life when you graduate from college. I graduated at 21 and now that I am 26, I have totally left behind my chosen fields of Criminal Justice/ Sociology. I have to admit that I felt bamboozled by my professors, for they never once talked about how difficult it was to get a job in the sociology field, and even if you did, it would not pay you shit. I was too young and dumb to ask those questions.

I don't think I am qualified to hop into the debate on salaries and tuitions now vs. then. I just don't have the knowledge. And I tend to look on the sunny side (I bet you don't believe that reading my last few baby posts) and thank the good Lord that I am living here in the US and not in North Korea. We still have it pretty good, ya'll.

I did like DP's point on how alot of us compare our reality to someone else's front. I can tell you that I have been envious of a friend of mine more than once- high-paying job, perfect clothes, giant house, new BMW. But when I sit down and think about it- they are probably close to 200,000 in debt for the house, she works un-Godly hours, the house is a year old and not furnished because she is never home to enjoy it, and the Beemer is leased. Plus they are so financed that she could not quit her job to stay at home w/ any future kids. I love seeing my husband on the weekends and evenings, you make choices.

I am a big follower of Dave Ramsey, I attribute alot of our financial stability to his advice- and good common sense. I agree that it is very difficult to gain an education today w/out a college fund or student loans. But- Mr.B. did it. My Dad did it on the GI bill- took him 9 years. What blows me away are these women who will have 60,000 in student loans and then never even go into the work force, deciding instead to be stay at home Moms(sounds like Skanky Stacy). I don't know, I would have a hard time sleeping at night with that hanging over me.

Oh yeah, credit card companies are EVIL.

Word Infinity. Mr. Star and I just finished paying off our school loans after six years of marriage and now we can live a little better than we used to. Just a little!

The one thing I will do for our little Star is teach him how to manage his money properly. My parents never taught me about budgeting or how not to supplement your living with credit cards. I got mine when I started college; however I never racked up such massive debt!

I feel sorry for today's kids. They will be so unprepared for "real life"!

As someone leaving law and getting a doctorate, I think you are on to something. I have found that in many fields the professors have no real life experience. They cannot tell you what a sociologist makes (and that a BA in sociology is next to worthless), because they don't know.

There are fields, like business, where at least a little real life experience, and a continued connection with the field through consulting, is expected of professors, but for a lot of them, all they know is academe and it is a dis-service to their students.

My under-employed, 27 yr old son and I watched this show and had similar feelings to many stated here. As a parent, you have to talk to your kids more about real life, how to budget, how to write a check for cryin' out loud.

He dropped out of college and though finishing is next to meaningless as far as producing any real change in his abilities, he is finishing via a distance program because he realizes that the degree is a must-have just to get your foot in the door. I could not tell him this. The world of hard knocks had to.

The other revelation we had is that unless you're getting a full ride at Harvard, it doesn't seem to matter where you get your degree, at least not for the undergraduate. Ergo, going into massive debt for a first degree just doesn't make sense anymore.

As a parent, it is hard to see your child in this position. His friends w/degrees are in the same position - working jobs they never thought they'd be working, for a lot less, and living at home. It is hard to get the grand-parents to realize that a degree is not going to magically open doors as it did for them. When I practiced, I used to hire new law grads for temporary litigation projects - they didn't think they'd be doing that kind of work either, but that's what was available. Sadly, even getting $20-30 an hour doesn't hack it when you are $100,000 in debt from law school.

And because it's been driving me crazy, if the woman who said she wanted a "totally awesome" job came anywhere near me looking for work, she'd be shown the door. Maybe you don't have a job because you can't express yourself in standard business English, you immature little twerp.

Today's show created such activity on the boards! I echo your sentiments on the hypocrisy of Jay babbling on about working for your tuition and blah-blee-blah when dad and mom handed him his career and most likely paid for his education.

I'm going into my last year of college and I have accrued no debt. In my state, they offer a tuition waiver; I am contractually bound to teach special education for two years within the state. Unfortunately, we get a lot of people in that major who do not want to be a special educators because of the nice tuition bonus. It's truly a job "yagattawanna" do. I was an RA since sophomore year. For two years, the only money I had to put towards my education went to my books. I know that I got lucky.

I consider myself to be level-headed with a realistic expectation of where I'm going to be financially when I graduate. My older brother graduated two years ago and has been a fine living example of where a college graduate winds up: in a small apartment, working full time at starbucks, while actively trying to find a career.

I really thought DP could've made a great episode here-- addressing the problems of debt with clear solutions. At least it could've been more informative on what you face when you graduate, and what changes. Certainly, one of the biggest surprises for my brother was finding his own health insurance-- because no one prepares you for that. Anyway, it really comes as no surprise that DP didn't do such a great job-- he hardly ever does anymore.

Oh, jeez. Where were you people last summer, when I was getting ready to start college? I come from a middle-class family, and I'm not exactly lacking for much. My parents were generous enough to pay for the first year, but once my scholarship and financial aid package comes through in June, you'd better believe I'll be sitting down every afternoon when I come home from work, to fill out my loan application. I'm absolutely cringing at the amount of debt I'll be incurring over the next three years. I don't have a credit card, so thank god I don't have to worry about that. But I'm ashamed to say that I actually did run out of spending money this year. My best friend sent me some to get me through the last month. My mother told me I need to manage my money better.

I tried to argue with her about it....until I just now read this discussion and realized, "Oh crap, she was right." I really don't know how to manage my money all that well. Not that I go and spend recklessly, but it's so easy to forget just how much money you can spend over a few months if you don't realize that 20 bucks here, 40 there, can really add up.

Mangetical Anji, I been there, done that! One thing that you might look for is taking a class in budgeting from your college. Most universities and community colleges offer some sort of class that'll teach you how to track expenses and start you out on a budget.

Speaking of college....does no one start off by going to community college anymore? That was a great way of saving money when I was in my college days--admittedly, that was almost 20 years ago (shudder).

Mangetical Anji, my advice to you is figure out what you really are interested in and want to do, study it in college, and then find a way to apply it in your work; additionally (and this is only if it's clear enough to you and is possible) head straight for graduate school as high as you need to go. Pick a profession where it's possible to make money and that you can enjoy because that's what it's ultimately going to come down to. Also accept that your life will work out but likely not the way you planned. It's easier to finish education (for the moment) and start life that way and even though you may have debt when you finish you'll be better positioned for launch.

A college degree (unless it's in a very few professions) normally does not give you sufficient skills, training, and experience. Oh yes, if you're smart, spend a little money to learn the current office, web-design, and financial software that employers use (trust me on this one). Whatever one's field, those prepared for management and administrative and financial support roles have the best odds because they are cross-trained.

Even though things ultimately worked out for the best by me taking "the road less travelled" (Or perhaps it's now "the road too commonly travelled!) I could have been far more successful and happy much sooner had I studied what I was interested in and then tried to find work based on that. One shouldn't have an Ivory Tower attitude (and one should be flexible for all the twists and turns) but one also should know what one is interested in and likes. It's true that we live in a challenging set of times but it's also true that those who are qualified for AND interested in what they do have a definite edge over someone who is qualified but uninterested.

I graduated from college with a degree in Advertising/PR/Marketing and realized as soon I graduated that (while it was good stuff to know and therefore not a complete waste) that I made a terrible mistake because I had no interest in passion for it (and was in fact completely unsuited). It's also a field where even those who love it have to really struggle to move-up the ladder in so imagine how impossible it is for someone who has no interest? I had to wander, struggle, and suffer to figure out where and how I had lost my way and where I needed to get started get back on it. It was ABSOLUTE HELL.

Had I been properly guided along the path I wouldn't have so wasted my time and my credit (precious resources which cannot easily be reclaimed) and veered so very far of course. Of course, life would still have been a challenge had things gone differently but at least I would have been properly calibrated and aligned to face it head-on instead of utterly defenseless which is what happened.

Don't feel bad about the spending money issue. If you grew up middle-class then you're used to a certain level of comfort and discretionary income and there's nothing wrong with that. It simply means you'll have to learn to budget and adjust to the current difficult conditions. Life should not be about hard times, however, we all have to learn to prevent and prepare for them and also how to operate when in them.

Anyway, no one should bash people with trust funds for having them, family money is the best kind (especially in a culture like this). However, raising children in responsible affluence does not mean raising them in a bubble or to not understand how the world really works.

And I'm still furious that Dr. Phil has wasted his pulpit in order to simplify and white-wash these complicated truths we have all been talking about.

[/quote]I could have been far more successful and happy much sooner had I studied what I was interested in and then tried to find work based on that.[/quote]

DR.AL, were you and I separated at birth? Seriously. Because I've always felt like the evil twin, you must be the smart one. You put into words what I only get mad about. I think about this problem all the time. College taught me about college, so know I know what I should have done. Law school taught me, um, well that I am $90,000 in school debt so now I have to be a lawyer. And go to bar review class for the 8th day in a row today.

Fortuntely, there are many alternative careers out there for Doctors of Jurisprudence. My plan is to sign up with a legal temp agency so I can check out a wide variety of things, get paid and meet many different types of people.

Mr.Jean was somewhat dumbstruck straight out of his program. It does seem kind of twisted to have to admit that you can go through all that edcation, and be a doctor (for chrissakes) and still have to work miserable hours in the basement of a miserable hospital. After a number of tries, he finally founf a job with some responsibility and respect. He is still pursuing the holy grail of teaching at a university, but until then there are, fortunately, no shortage of crazies to take care of in NYC.

WORD to everyone for not being suckered by the Dr.Phil-in-the-blank's poor decision to approach this very serious and stressful problem with the dissapointing, "Get a job!" screed. Ug. What's frightening is how many people think this is the end-all-be-all answer to young people's problems.

I didn't expect this episode to be as discombobulating as it was.

I'm very nearly one of those unemployed PhDs getting ready to be a substitute teacher because i've never been very good at flipping burgers. I've been fortunate to be able to get degrees from a couple of those most expensive high profile universities with no student debt. But i keep coming back to that "joke" by Jay: The professors couldn't get credit cards...

Basically, I'm coming off a year as an academic temp: Visiting Assistant Professor at a really expensive, competitive, elite college in a northeastern city 2 hours away from where i live (which happens to be a northeastern city that also hosts a comparably expensive, competitve, elite college where i did the PhD)... My salary was nearly 15k less than tuition as this same institution -- with no benefits, no housing/travel/research allowance, but full obligations to teach/advise students in a very small department. That said, I had it much better than many on the itinerant/adjunct teaching track...

But I'm stuck on the "they can't take an education away from you" notion that seems as disconnected from contemporary educational realities as the "i did work-study and jobs in the summer to pay for my degree" -- They won't bother trying to take your education away from you because sadly they don't really want it. (Though they might be interested in that $12 frame...) It's really tough to get a job of any kind these days -- i don't care how many help wanted signs you can point to...

And to make matters worse:
SkankyStacy's in debt from her master's degree but doesn't believe in working outside the home or parenting children who don't still give "neck kisses", Chris is working in academic advisement (!) while hoping for a golf career, and Brianne's really excited about her new future as a recording artist...but for now, they're all busy on their "sabbatical" in Jamaica. Meanwhile, Alex is swimming with the boy dolphins, Katherine has a home-office for her high school C-average, and Jay -- who GOT the only gig in the "totally awesome job" listings cuz of his poppa's connections -- is shocked that his 20something friends don't know how to write a check while challenging bimbettes on the street (after they got the right answer!) if they know who Dick Cheney is...

The "expectancy" disconnect of this show really makes my head & heart hurt.

aliyameadow:



That's the problem some of these young people are coming up against. They don't know how to handle hard knocks and disappointments and trouble - self-inflicted or not.

The girl that wants to be a singer reminded me of a friend from college that wants to be an actor. We graduated in the late 80s, two years later he decides he wants to be an actor. He moved to Los Angeles for a few months, but came home. He's pretty much been living with his mom ever since, picking up jobs here and there but few lasting for long. He's done theatre on and off. But all the time, he moaned about how he wanted to be in movies. It got so frustrating to listen to him. I wanted to scream, "You want to act? Go back to L.A.! Go to New York! Get two or three part-time jobs, save your money, and go!" But he never has. He couldn't face living in a crappy apartment, having roommates, or working the night shift at UPS while waiting for his big break. My best friend advised him to learn bartending, as it would be a steady, decent-paying night job he could do. But, no. It was beneath a man with a college degree. He turns 40 this year, with no career and no prospects. He tends to try to go out with early twentysomethings, because women our age tend to not want a self-centered guy who still lives with his mother. I hate to think what he's going to be like at 50 if he doesn't change things for himself.

Wow. and Wow. Great posts. My two cents, and I'll make it short. Am a post boomer who made it through an engineering degree with the help of the co-op program (work a semester, study a semester). Ate ramen noodles five times a week, bounced checks all over town at one point (before co-op). Married early to another student. We lived in a trailer and for awhile chose which bills to pay each month. You might have called it poverty but we both came from very frugal families and had very few illusions; we put every penny we could aside so that we could afford something better.

I was at the tail-end of "state school is cheap" but at the leading edge of "you have a bachelor's degree, so what?". The job market today is completely skewed, and if you think our economy is rebounding....but that's another show... I did mindless temp jobs that got me less mindless but menial contract engineering jobs and learned the very true lesson: it's who you know. Gratefully took an entry level permanent job and have been there 15+ years. Divorced that husband (but that's another show) and have been accountable for my own salary/debts/investments ever since.

You're all right. Bachelor's degrees, even in engineering, are not worth as much as they used to be. College kids have unrealistic expectations (but from what I've seen they wise up pretty quick in the real world -- I've hired a handful of them). Credit cards should be handled like loaded weapons. Dave Ramsey is a minor deity and would have handled that much better than Phull-of-it.

So question: I grew up in a seriously rural area where only 15% of us went on to college. The high schools in the area had ginormous vocational programs that turned out carpenters, electricians, beauticians, masons and the like, but we all had to take this one course that was like a practical applications course. You learned how to fill out an application, how to fill out a check; you took endless fill-in-the-circle tests that supposedly pointed you towards your eventual calling. Do they not have classes like that any more? (You knew I'd get to the question eventually, yes?)