Actually, I've always thought Marty was all kinds of self-centered sleaze, as someone else mentioned a 14 year old in a 40 year old's body, and I still think that. Yeah, he had a lousy childhood - he's what, at least 40 now - and he needs to deal with it, not continue to use it as an excuse for any and all bad behavior. Erin's childhood was equally as bad (I personally think even worse) and she can manage to at least function on a somewhat adult level. I think Erin's right that she probably should have dumped his sorry loser ass years ago.

I feel really bad that poor little Nathan has to grow up in this FUF, when he could have gone to a nice adoptive family (c'mon most anyone that could pass an adoption agency screening would probably not be this much of a FUF) who would love him and be happy to have him and not be relying on him to bring their dysfunctional family together. Maybe at least he wouldn't have to listen to the screamfests that evidently occur daily at FUF's residence.

While I think some of Katherine and Alex's gripes were teenage drama queen exaggeration, I think Marty does need to be a man (not in Dr. Phil's take charge as head of the family way but as in acting like a responsible adult and not a spoiled child), and face up to his responsibilities. Forging Erin's name to endorse a check and deposit it in his bank account - how many of you who are married would do that or think it was not a big deal if your spouse did it? Marty is totally amoral and if Erin's smart, she'll stop listening to Shill's BS about having to "earn your way out" of a bad marriage (all those years living with Mr. Id should just about do that) and kick his sorry ass to the curb. Then, when he's a bitter lonely old man living in the homeless shelter cause he's so irresponsible, he'll still be blaming it all on the fact that his stepfather used to beat the crap out of him when he was a kid (oh boo-fricken-hoo). Maybe he can hook up with Skanky and they can share all manner of lovely social diseases.

Have we ever had any independent corroboration of just how abused Marty was? Marty's such a liar about other things that I'm starting to wonder whether he's exagerating his abuse.

But the problem here Luvacuppajoe is that Dr. Phil is TOTALLY CONVINCED that his personal and internally constructed version of external reality -- which we all have -- and his way of doing things are the right way to go, the only way to go, and he is never open to the fact that his ideas, perceptions, and methods could be wrong, hurtful, or even dangerous when used on the wrong people.

This man NEVER backs down even when he's completely wrong or totally fucks up.

And as we have seen, when he can't win by intimidation, he uses his withdrawal maneuver as he used it on Stacy. Besides, his combative and shame-based tactics are going to do fuck-all to help people who've been abused recover. What killed me about the previous installment of the FUF #1 episode was that I could see the exact moment when the trust that had started to be re-kindled in Marty's eyes over the past months DIED last week when Dr. Phil fucked him over on stage and showcased how much he really "cares" about this family.

As for today's episode...

UNBELIEVABLE!

This was definitely the most intense episodes we've had with the Braun's and it looks like the drama is going to be ramped up even more next week!

I felt bad for everyone.

Dr. Phil, Erin, Katherine, and Alexandra TOTALLY broadsided Marty and I can't blame him for getting pissed. No sooner does he think he's making progress then Erin is threatening to leave (again) and the girls are telling him how awful he is. It all really may be like how they feel, how they say it is, and mostly true, but this wasn't the way to do it. This intervention was handled unbelievably badly. It should have happened in that back-stage room they used to debrief FUF #2 the other day.

Marty being confronted, booed, and hissed before, and by, a live studio audience (who all think he's a Fucktard) while simultaneously being yelled at and humiliated by Dr. Phil, Erin, Katherine, and Alexandra is not going to make anything better in Marty or that family and will likely make things worse. If I was Marty I'd probably think:

"Why bother to try anyway at all?"

Sigh... Dr. Phil also REALLY needs to wake up, smell the latte, and realize that having a boyfriend and getting deep-dicked on a regular basis makes you physically and emotionally feel pretty good whether Daddy was there and good or not. I think Phil has this fantasy that girls whose Daddies -- like him -- are "perfect" in every way have no interest in sex or dating until the age of 30 and even then only on their wedding night. If I had Alex's boyfriend, I'd insist on being screwed at least three times a night!

I think Marty is as busted as everyone says and observes but these women and Dr. Phil don't know how to handle him. They threaten to abandon him, mercilessly criticize, and completely humiliate him to the point where he then really doesn't give a shit. At the same time, Katherine's tearful testimony seemed to have some chronological distortions in it or something. She is such a little reptile!

One thing I hate about her and Alex is that neither one of them seem to place any value on routing energy in so they can learn to think.

They are like robots.

On the contrary, Phil says quite regurarly to people that his methods don't work for everyone, and they're quite welcome to find others if that's what they choose.

I don't see it as intimidation, I see it as confronting people's bullshit that they have used as coping mechanisms that worked in childhood, but only serve to hold them back in adulthood. He was right to confront Stacy on her contradictions and excuses, and he was right to question the validity of continuing if she didn't recognize her own need to sabotage her recovery.

Sure he's combative at times, but again, people aren't ambushed off the street for this, they know his style and technique and they know what they're getting into. I don't see it as shame, I see it as forcing a person to question how their logic got them to where they are. Anyone at all familiar with the 12 Step process knows they have a saying, that "our best thinking is what got us here". His catchphrase, "how's that workin' for ya?" goes right to the heart of that.

I don't agree that Marty was broadsided. The issue was his inability to be accountable for his actions and his need to be honest only off-camera. Phil rightly pointed out that if Marty believed his parenting tactics were effective and right, he wouldn't need to record over them on tape, nor to turn off the cameras when things got down to the bone. By being dishonest Marty already knew he had his shit coming, and I give him credit for sitting there and taking it, but you only get out of it what you put into it, and Marty has put less than all his cards on the table, to use Phil's analogy. Garbage in, garbage out. Marty's got no one to blame for being called on his bullshit but himself.

I can't give you a serious rebuttal to the comment about Phil being a perfect parent and thinking women only want sex at 30 and/or when they're married. That's a gross generalizaton and an exaggeration I'm not going to get into.

Marty's flawed, but he's not busted. I didn't hear anyone boo or hiss him, it's not Jerry Springer. Marty was in the hot seat (as have Erin and the girls been) because it's Marty's turn. He agreed to be on a national tv show, so there's no reason to hold backstage sessions for the sake of saving his ego. The only reason Stacy and Chris were backstage was because a studio light blew out during commercial so they carried on in a back room.

All 3 of the women in the family have been called on their bullshit, but they got with the program a bit quicker than Marty, he's a harder nut to crack. If he wants a hand-holding therapist (and there's plenty of them out there) he's welcome to use one. Phil isn't a hand-holder, and that's why people like him. Marty's been hand-held and it didn't do much to get past the denial and dishonesty. Some people just need a tougher approach to get the point. And sure he was angry, who wouldn't be? He's been a fraud all these months and he's being called on it.

Truth is though, at the end of the day, Phil could give a rat's ass if Marty wants to go on deluding himself. Marty's only holding back and hurting himself. I guess I'm an optimist with these guys, and I like to think there are subtle shifts in their thinking that accumulate to get them out of their ruts. My money says something shifted for Marty today.

Thanks Hexele, Luvacuppajoe, and Siamese Cat Lady --whom I agree with, and others too numerous to name.

Thanks for recapping (kind of) and bringing the snark on Lord God Almighty Shill, Robin-bot, and his fat-butted son.

I don't--can't--don't want to-- watch Dr. Shill any more. Can't stand him like Luvsmeacuppajoe mentioned--why watch a show that stresses you out with stupidity and, frankly, downright abusive talk--and I mean Dr. Shill's megalomaniac posturing first of all; and then the guests clueless seriously messed-up behavior and defensive bullshit? I actually turned it on yesterday and saw Shill berating the "slime-that-is-called-Marty" and turned it off after a minute. Same ol" blankness in Marty's eyes. No amount of Shill's yelling will get through--or if it does--will stick in his mind. He is a victim and everyboddies mean to him. Boofrickinghoo --to repeat another poster's word.

But I love reading all of your takes on the mess. Most of you say everything I was thinking so no need to repeat, except to say, Huzzah! Amen! Wordy Word McWord, Word to the third, and Fucking A!

I know someone has pointed this out before, but Alex shouldn't be hanging out with guys because she has a son to take care of. Sure, if her parents offer to babysit one Saturday every other week and she wants to go out and get laid, then whatever. But ultimately, she has a huge responsibility and I don't even see that getting mentioned when she's whining about boys.
And when Erin sobbed, "How do I earn my way out of this marriage?!" Dude, what are you trying to earn? He's never going to turn around and say, "Erin, I really love you and I love those girls but let's have a nice divorce. I'll give you everything I have, mkay? You've earned it." Fucking leave him already! He's not making your and your kids' lives better by being around.
Why do I watch Dr. Phil and his skeery wife and his big-butted son if I can't stand them? First, I like these forums and I'd like to participate and Next, once in awhile I end up calling my man and say, "Wow. You are awesome. I just saw the most fucked up guy on Dr. Phil..."

I cannot speak for everyone, but for me it is because DP's show brings up some very important issues in society today that we all debate here on the boards rationally, and with respect (for the most part, but not always, apparently) for everyone else's opinions. For the majority of posters on here, we just talk to each other and have interesting, intellectual dialogue. I don't always agree with Soap's opinions on Stacy, but I always read them, because they are well- written and articulate.

Luvacuppajoe, I really do not want to see you get banned, because I do think that you can contribute a different opinion here than most of us, jaded ex-DP followers, so I will warn you that double posting will get you banned quicker than anything. And they also frown on singling posters out and personally attacking opinions. If that was not your intent and I misread your last few posts, though, I apologize.

As for today's show, I did not think that Knife Daddy could get worse, but now we are finding out that Mom is an alcoholic, Mom and Knife Daddy scream profanity at each other in front of the son, and the 4 year old is looking at porn with his pants around his knees. That is ten shades of wrong. Those of you with 4 year olds- how would he even know to do that, is that normal 4 year old behavior? Or could (God forbid, but I thought it) that idiot father be showing him how to masturbate. Normally, I would not believe it, but this guy has alread proved to have no judgement and the intellect of a tree trunk.

FUF #3???

The reasons you mentioned are my reasons as well B-Kat.

I love listening to and talking with all of you.

I don't always agree with Dr. Phil's opinions or methods -- in fact I trashed him where necessary in my thesis -- but I do believe the format he employs is entertaining and educational.

These follow-up shows and Season Long Family Interventions make for good TV and doubtlessly make many viewers (both educated and not) stop and question themselves, their lives, the choices they have made, and the choices they need to make.

Seriously, this shit is better then any of the soaps I watch!

I'm looking forward to Erin melting down next week as much as I was to Victor learning that he was Abby's Pappy via Ashley stealing his sperm from Diane who had stolen it herself and as much as I am looking forward to Victor and Nikki's showdown over the fact that she kept quiet.

If only DP's abusiveness, insensitivity, meglomania, and need to be THE Alpha Male weren't so problematic because other then that -- and Robin, Jay, and the "Virgin" Posse's ignoramus special guest appearances -- DP is a GREAT program.

KnifeBaby! Ack! When he ate the piece of fruit off the blade, I couldn't believe it. Nice to see the kid is no longer playing with knives and chains - but now he is playing with himself. Sad.

I have a 4 year old son and no, masturbation while looking at porn isn't normal. I'm not saying that there isn't some poking around in the genital area from time to time, but I don't think it has anything to do with sexual feelings.
Damn, I missed the episode again! I turned it on and saw that dopey Ephendrine "addict" and Dr Phil falling all over himself because she was "beautiful" and decided I didn't want to see that particular rerun. I totally missed the knife-dad.

No, that crap could get your ass kicked....spouse or no spouse. But the difference here is that my spouse would never have to do that, nor would I. We have his, mine, and our money. This is just another indicator that the FUF marriage is doing no one any good at all.

cuppajoe, I used to be a DP devotee, and have watched in horror as he has begun to out-Maury Maury, but without the sense of humor about it. This forum is a breath of fresh air and always interesting perspectives. I'm sure we don't always agree with one another...but then again, we don't have to! I quit watching for awhile, but missed the folks here. You're right that these people didn't get dragged off the streets to be on the show. But that doesn't equate to a strong desire to change as much as a) famewhore-ness and b) hoping that DP sides totally with them and smacks their recalcitrant partner in line [cough Stacy cough].

And something else that's bugging me...what is it he says about there being no reality, only perception? Horse.shit. Especially when it comes to teenage girls, one of which I used to be. That only works when you're talking to two rational, sane adults. Otherwise, everyone must bend to ..say Alex's skewed self-centered perceptions of how unfair life is to her.

The topic is not other posters, so let's not. Thanks.

Yeah, this makes no sense at all! If you use that logic you take away any reason a person has to try to see things from another persons point of view. After all, if there is no clear cut reality of a situation, why bother trying to see it from any other standpoint than your own? This totally lets self absorbed people think "Hey! I guess I am always right!".



My three and a half year old recently "discovered" that particular area on his body and if I had a nickle for ever time I've said "Honey, keep your hands out of your underwear." in the past few weeks I'd be a very rich woman. But I don't think there's anything sexual about it, it's just a fun place to touch.

I'm scared for that kid watching porn. There have been studies done that show that children exposed to that can really be affected in their sexaul, mental and emotional growth. That's nothing short of abuse and call me crazy but I think more than DP is needed in this situation .... like Child Protective Services perhaps.

I was hoping that someone from their hometown would call CPS LAST TIME they were on the show, and that was before the emotional abuse, porn, inapproriate sexual behavior, etc. I do believe that DP has a responsibility to notify the authorities, because that is very serious- I just see red flags all over the place, and for DP to sit back and milk this very wrong situation for ratings is ghastly.

Oh yeah, and Marty is an asshat. I think that I am going to end all my posts with "Marty is an asshat" from now on.

On a completely general note, you know what I hate? When Dr. Phil asks someone to explain their behaviour, and so they do, but then he immediately interrupts them and sneers, "Do you want to defend this or do you want to change it?"

It's always just a small moment, but I think it's representative. He constantly sets people up to tear them down, and it keeps him in control.

Grr.

Maybe I'm just cranky 'cause I missed FUF yesterday...

I definitely agree with everyone who sees Marty for the man he is. He's dishonest, meanspirited and is the type of man who doesn't want to take resposibility for his own actions. As Joe said, if he is a good father, why is he rewinding tapes to hide the truth? And though it's inappropriate for the oldest daughter to be with every guy, she's only behaving that way because she's not getting any love at home.
Whoever called Alex a bitch is fucking inappropriate. Her tears are real and the fact that it was even taken there has obviously never been abused. They have no idea whatsoever. I hate the fact that people are siding with Marty because they have a personal issue with Dr. Phil. His methods may not be for everyone, but they work for those who want to be honest with themselves enough to CHANGE THEIR LIVES!! And Marty doesn't want to change. It's obvious. Those who actually feel sorry for him are no better than he is.

I tell you, it's a good thing that Shill is "entertainment," because if he were therapy, he would have lost his license to practice a long time ago.

I finally watched the Stacy Breakdown Episode (or, "How I Learned To Put Aside My Thought Processes And Succumb To The Cult of Shill") last night. Rather, I fast forwarded through most of it. I am no fan of Stacy's, believe me. However, I think Shill's treatment of her, his badgering a pregnant woman into an emotional collapse, was beyond contempt. That is so far from what psychological "help" should be, it is not even funny. Given Stacy's history, I think intense therapy is what she needs. Shill, through his tactics and antics, is not the person to provide it.

Regarding the latest episode with FUF1, as much as I loathe the air that Marty draws into his lungs, his ambush last night by Shill and the women of the family was fifty types of wrong. That was not cool in any way. While I think Marty is clueless and can't see the forest from the trees (Alexandra, for once, seemed genuine in her feelings), he didn't deserve to be treated like that. That doesn't help, an ambush like that. All it does is foster feelings of mistrust and resentment, which is the exact opposite of the goal of therapy. Oh, wait, that's right...this is entertainment, not therapy.

I spoke with my sister on the topic of little boys and penis awareness. She is a widely renowned expert on child development (and I am very proud of her). She says it is not at all unusual for little boys to discover that touching themselves feels awfully darn good. It's not remotely sexual, although it is not uncommon for young boys to have sexual feelings as early as 7 or 8, usually nothing dirty really, but crushes on classmates and, more commonly, teachers. It's only when a young man starts to get seriously hormonal that he truly masturbates to orgasm, with sexual thoughts and fantasies. If that 4-year-old is being subjected to porn, that is child abuse. A child that age is entirely too young to be exposed to something like that; it will only serve to confuse him.

ETA: If someone wants to "change their life," being barked at by someone attempting to "help" for the sake of good television is not the way to do it. Trust me on this one. I had a nervous breakdown four years ago following the sudden death of my father. My therapist is very, very tough and takes no shit from me. However, had I been treated the way Shill treats his guests, I don't know if I would be here today to type this. I truly think Shill is dangerous, and something is going to happen eventually where his methods backfire. I've been in enough legitimate therapy to know.

I COMPLETELY disagree.

I, and many others, have faced our limitations, delusions, and denials, and changed our lives -- on our own and with tough/kind/fair/respectful therapists (The best kind!) -- without getting the shit kicked out of us!

DP's methods shame, humiliate, violate safety, destroy trust, reactivate trauma, and shut down emotional growth.

Marty has retreated so far into himself after this latest betrayal (the second in the same day) that he may never come back out. Getting broadsided by Erin and the girls before a live studio audience was bad enough, but Marty was still in shock from the previous episode (recorded the same day), and then DP just went ahead kicked him to the ground in front of Erin, the girls, and the audience. Given his abusive background, I'll bet Marty thought that he'd gone home again.

MaggieGault, word, word, and word!

Don't worry about Stacy though, she's tougher then nails, and I don't think that was a breakdown, I think that was a very smart tactical retreat. She knew she couldn't beat him, since he'd gone into his "noble" Old Testament Patriarch Mode so she made an unconscious decision to join him, feigned some helplessness, feigned an epiphany, and then let loose with the waterworks. You can see it on her face that she's pleased she's outsmarted him but is also rethinking her abusive ways. You can also see that Dr. Phil suspects that she's playing him but since she's willing to submit he's calmed down. It's her "insolence" that bothers him, I suspect, more then her bitchery. I have never seen a man need to be respected and adored by women -- and feared by men -- so much and who completely flips out when neither happens.

If Dr. Phil were any kind of clinician or host he would have committed to these people even when they were being difficult and treatment resistant. He also would have made sure that even when they were being confronted on their destuctive and abusive behavior that it was done in a safe and respectful manner. I love it how Erin is allowed to be Erin, Katherine is allowed to be Katherine, and Alex is allowed to be Alex -- all of them being imperfect, whiny, martyred bitches, who's limitations are allowed to slide -- but Marty isn't allowed to be Marty and is repeatedly told how worthless he is and that he deserves to be left.

There's NO QUESTION that he needs to change but there are kind/unkind and effective/ineffective ways to do that and none of those would be of interest to DP, because he insists on blasting those who come to him for help and on making them SUBMIT to him and/or threatens to abandon them when they show signs of being smarter and tough enough to beat him. I'm also truly amazed that DP thinks that things will be made any better by his humiliating, shaming, and emasculating, because, as I recall from Psychology 101, stuff like that only fires abusers up to smack someone helpless down even harder then before.

Someday, I dream of going on the show, and if I do, I swear will BREAK Dr. Phil! Let's see if Robin follows him around with her hand on his shoulder then! He only looks tough and smart because he surrounds himself with adoring cultists, slaves, and idiots; he wouldn't last 10 minutes up against high-powered psychologists and psychoanalysts. It's also why he's so anti-intellectual and why he's poached most of his ideas from smarter people like Harville Hendrix. That's also why most of his audience seem like idiots and he keeps outside expert and audience feedback to a minimum, unless they are in his pocket, because there's only gonna be one sheperd in that flock!

I think the slogan for most -- though not all -- of the show's fans should be:

"Dr. Phil, for weak-minded people who need ready-made and simplistic answers to tough questions and want to be yelled at when they make a mistake, who want someone else to do the thinking and decision-making for them, and who want to pretend the women's movement never happened."

Oh man, I would LOVE to see this. Soap vs. Phil. Clash of the Titans!

The first couple on today's show was horrible. That child is in imminent danger. Children that young do naturally touch themselves, because it feels good to them, but masturbating to porn is learned bahaviour!

I am soooo mad at the child's mother! Why would you procreate with a man like that? A man who encourages his child to play with knives and exposes him to porn! And the stupid Dr. Phil audience is applauding the father, because he stopped endangering his son's life! Why is that applause-worthy? That's not an achievement, that's what he should be doing already!

Really? My take on it is the exact opposite (which I guess proves the point). Like Dr. Phil, I also believe there is no reality, only perception. I mean, there is a base level of reality but the meaning behind it is purely perceptual. For example, a car crash. Yes, the cars crashed, there's no doubt about that, but is it good or bad? Did it happen for a reason, or did it "just happen"? Who can say? Also, the value judgements we make (about people, situations and places) can and do change depending on the context. What if the car crash resulted in injuries which required you to stay in the hospital for three months? That's bad, right? It certainly isn't pleasant. But what if because you were in the hospital they (by chance) discovered you had a difficult-to-find tumor which needed to be removed immediately or it would have killed you within the year? Is the car crash such a bad thing anymore? It all depends whether you focus on the short term or the long term. No reality, only perception. This is something Dr. Phil has said and I totally agree with it.



In my view, having this attitude usually pushes a person to be able to see things more from other people's standpoints rather than their own. If a person wants to say "I'm right because it's what I perceive" they can do it all they like but I think they'd quickly find their lives to be chaotic and unsatisfying, especially where people is concerned.



This, Professor Soap, I agree with completely. I've been very hot/cold with Dr. Phil lately. I really don't appreciate the rating stunts he's pulled over the past few months (Weight-loss challenge stuff, FUF 1&2, etc), but I don't see Dr. Phil as some out-of-control, power hungry freak. He seems sincere to me most times. That being said, threatening to drop therapy with people who at one time said they needed it desperately is not cool. What did he expect? That they would nod their heads to everything he said and then "poof" all better?

*DP's methods shame, humiliate, violate safety, destroy trust, reactivate trauma, and shut down emotional growth.*


And I disagree with you.

You--and a few other people--act as if Marty was ambushed when he wasn't. If he didn't want to be on the show, he shouldn't have come. Dr. Phil's methods are very well-known; he's a no nonsense life stratagist who doesn't take bullshit for answers.

I'm sorry, but Marty is a bullshiter who thinks that he could charm his way into Dr. Phil's good graces. I saw yesterday's episode. He made me sick. He doesn't care about his family and--if anything--Dr. Phil was trying to make this man take resposibility for himself and his actions.

And that's another issue I have--you keep saying that his family ambushed him. I don't feel sorry about the wife because as Judge Judy would say to her "You picked him." But it's obvious that his daughters are hurting and maybe bringing their father on national TV was a way for them to be safe. They can't talk to him alone because then he'll get pissed off--I understand why they don't want to deal with him. I wouldn't, either. Kids can't even trust parents who would suddenly become irate over the stupidest shit. They just want him to love them and vice versa.

And as far as him being "so far in to himself," Bullshit. That man is as gone as the days are long. When Erin married him (and I have issues with her, too) she knew what she was getting herself into and it pisses me off that she didn't leave him a long time ago because she wants to be seen as the victim.

There is nothing wrong with Dr. Phil's methods--some people are just too sensitive for them. Now that I think about it, he doesn't even yell at people. The only I've seen him get upset is when the guests on his show don't want to see the truth about themselves. He wants people to be honest with themselves and the people around them. I'm pretty sure he doesn't make people cry for entertainment and if you really have a problem with the way he does things, then don't watch the show.

Are you kidding me? He was THUNDERING away at Marty yesterday! Beyond that, people aren't always ready to see Dr. Phil's Version (And whether it's accurate or inaccurate, that's still all it is!) of The Truth About Themselves when he is ready for them to. Even though he intellectually seems to know better, as a clinician, this man is a bully and a perceptual narcissist. A good therapist knows when you have to work with the person's defenses and when to gently dismantle them. As for this "get with the program or get out" approach you suggest -- since I "dare" to criticize the incompetent host of a fairly good show -- let me remind you that it really is possible to like and not like something and someone at the same time. Things aren't always black or white, good or evil, a concept that DP and George Bush both have a hard time wrapping their pea brains around as evidenced by their attempts to make us believe the contrary.

Very good points, Robbie.

OK, here's the REALITY thing boiled down in a nutshell...

Yes, there is (THEORETICALLY -- for once you understand the limits of perception you ALSO KNOW it can't be entirely proven!) an ULTIMATE REALITY out there.

The problem is, each of us takes in light, sound, smell, and other experiential sensory data in from our senses and then ASSEMBLES THAT DATA -- based BOTH on how WE PERSONALLY experienced the experience and ALSO based on however our immediate need to perceive it is -- HOWEVER WE NEED TO.

Each of us has real/true and imagined/false perceptions of the world and many innate and environmental reasons for perceiving it was we do.

Therefore, each of us lives our life in a Virtual Internal World -- it's the equivalent to The Matrix or an Emotional Holodeck -- a Bio-Psychologically Internally Constucted Approximation of External Reality which has varying degrees of accuracy and inaccuracy to it.

We are SURROUNDED by Ultimate Reality, but NONE of us will ever perceive it as it truly is because of the limits of subjective perception. That's the exciting and scary thing, each of us makes total sense to ourselves, but others can see our blind-spots just like we can see theirs and one can rarely see one's own self clearly without help from others.

Plato understood and explained this concept in the Allegory of the Cave and current research in psychology and neuroscience supports it.

This is why therapy is so wonderful and so important, by expanding and repairing and understanding emotional processes, one can eventually change the reality one repeatedly finds one's self living out over, and over, and over again. Change your brain and you'll then change your constructed approximation and subsequent experience of reality.

fellagirlie, sorry, but (my opinion) the women of the FUF are tee-total bitches. They may be victims of their dad's ways, lord knows I can't defend Marty, but he is by no means the sole party responsible for this trainwreck. I wouldn't want to spend ten minutes with one of 'em -- and (again, my opinion) not one of the bunch of them has shown one iota of growth or change, with the exception of Nathan.

And what I said earlier about the perception/reality thing was: this works for rational adults; so I agree with you, Robbie. Teenage girls, Brianne, Alex and Katherine, may just need a reality check now and again. Witness all the "spoiled kids". Wouldn't you have loved to provide a dose of reality for them??

Which, in a circular fashion, brings me to: it is only my perception that Alex is a bitch! So we can both be right.

This "reality versus perception" stuff is also one of the foundations of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which I swear saved my life (sorry for the melodrama, but it's true).

Sure, reality exists. There are absolutes in every situation. However, every single human being perceives things differently, as a result of our life experiences, feelings, prejudices, emotions, likes, dislikes...the list goes on and on. So, in that sense, for imperfect human beings, there is no reality, merely how we perceive that reality to be.

One of the things I learned in CBT is how to change my thinking about situations that gave me fear and trouble. I'm an insomniac, for instance. I used to get very, very frightened about this, which made me even more awake. I used to say to myself, "I'm never, ever going to sleep again and I'll go crazy." That was my perception of what lying there awake meant. Now my thought is, "I'm okay. So what if I don't sleep. I'll sleep eventually. A sleepless night never killed anyone." My anxiety lessens considerably.

So the reality is the same...I am lying there awake...but I changed my perception of the situation.

Another good example is between men and women. Let's say a couple is sitting on the couch watching TV, quiet, snuggling a bit. The woman may be all put out, thinking to herself, "Why doesn't he talk to me more? Doesn't he care about me or my day? Why can't we do more?" Meanwhile, the man is thinking, "Boy, she's the best woman in the world, and I'm so lucky. We can just sit here and cuddle and watch TV, and we're happy. All's right with the world." The absolute fact remains, they are sitting quietly in front of the electronic pacifier, but their perceptions are vastly different.

Oh, and I am going to justify watching Shill in just one way: the circus isn't in town right now.

I missed parts of today's show due to a news break, but I guess Knife Dad is back. I think he was the most clueless person I've ever seen on DP. Kids do touch themselves (I've seen it as early as 1 1/2 years old) but looking at porn while doing so is something he's learned from another person.

Because the original show upset me so much, I'm going to go back to what I said the first time I saw these people. DP has footage of the child walking around on the roof, eating with a giant knife, etc. This means his staff told the kid to do all these things so they could catch it on film. If they truly cared about the child's safety, they wouldn't have done it and that's what really makes me pissed off at DP.

And that right there is a clear cut example of how I don't see DP doing any GOOD on this show anymore. All he does is berate people and throw around presents, how is that solving anyone's problems?

Soapy, I don't think DP's patronizing and egotistical smackdowns are limited to women, I have seen him try to beat down the men just as often. What I have learned more than anything watching the FUFs is how amazingly inept the man is at counseling when he is dealing with the serious problems. Stage fright is one thing, but changing the patterns of someone for instance- a narcissistic, habitual liar, who has had numerous affairs, pops out kids like it is going out of style, and then gets rid of them when they CRAMP her style, and who on the brink of bankruptsy, refuses to get a job all the while thumbing her nose at her religion- has really shown that DP is good with the cute soundbite but his therapy skills are laughable. And I am not looking for a miracle with these idiot people, but I would like to see one tiny iota of growth. Instead, they are getting WORSE.

But I do see his chauvinistic, narrow-minded opinions on women come out sometimes. They are subtle but they are there, mostly in how he parades Robin around as the perfect model of a woman. And seriously, what has this woman done? Anything? Does she have a degree? Any kind of significant experience other than following DP around with her hand on his shoulder (which just about made me want to hurl by the way). I look at them and it is like we have regressed 50 years.

Given what I know about his background, Phil considers himself to be, and is, a highly successful self-made man, who has gone quite far and high considering where he started out. I think he probably feels that Robin is his prize and from a Social Exchange perspective she probably is; though her sacharrine sweet personality, rampant materialism, obsession with beauty, health, and cosmetics, and covert anti-feminist stance all irritate the shit out of me.

It just feels like Robin's entire life and job revolve around being Jay & Jordan's Mom, being Phil's wife, and telling everyone how wonderful and perfect Phil is; even Robin's interest in health seems to just be a vehicle to remain perfect and beautiful for Phil.

Robin is sort of his little China Doll though in that she acts and is treated like she's made out of porcelain or something.

I think one reason Dr. Phil was so hard on Stacy was that she actually was smart-enough and trained enough to see through his bullshit and he didn't like that one bit -- he was out-of-control and it scared him -- whereas Robin is always there to love, support, worship him, and believe everything he says.

Poor DP, he'll never know the pleasure of being in a relationship with someone who is an equal.

Anyway, I just hope Stacy doesn't become of his cultists or I will be pissed.

She's raised all kinds of hell and wrecked a lot of lives, but I like her anyway, probably just because most -- but not all -- of the other women on this show are pathetic and suck.

As for Erin's tears over earning her way out the marriage:

"Honey, you've earned your way out on the Concorde, and your limo is here."

It amazes me how Erin can be so competent and smart but so clingy, conservative, and dumb.

Its just occured to me that DP is like Rush Limbuagh in that respect- if ever anyone who dared to disagree with him got on the show, DP would never let them get a word in edgewise and would edit the crap out of the show to make all dissenters look like radical liberal fools.

Seems to me the idea of honest, real, helpful therapy and televisied therapy are inherantly incompatible. I had a prof for an English class that made the case that all journal writers (Boswell in specific) were invariably emotionally decitful, doing PR as they were writing thier journals, creating a persona for the public becuase there is always the inkling in the journalist's mind that their work will be read. I think its the same idea for therapy on TV, one can only be so honest becuase try as one might to 'journal' one's experiences and emotions candidly, knowing that its been recorded and that you are creating public persona sets the concious desire to change and the subconcious desire to create a desirable persona at odds and prohibits the same depth of honesty permissible in private with a professional.

Knife Dad gives me the creeps. I don't care if he got rid of all the 'bad' stuff and isn't letting his kid swing the chains around. He freaks me out. And the mom seems as though she's just barely holding it together.

It's been really interesting to hear everybody's opinions about FUF. On one hand, I could almost buy that Marty truly and honestly does not think that there is such a thing as verbal or emotional abuse. However, he did turn off the cameras and rewind over at least one part (according to Erin and the girls), so that to me means that at some level, he recognizes that it's wrong ... I don't know. I really can't get a sense of the guy.

I've thought of that. I've thought about a challenge to DP, telling him to take his theories and compare them to that of experts in the field. I can tell you one thing: my therapist would eat the guy for breakfast. And then he'd have it off with Robin.

Okay, maybe not that. But still.

Soundbytes do not make for sound advice. While I do believe that most complex problems can be handled with simple solutions most of the time, it does take more than a catchy phrase. There has to be more substance to it than that.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again...something that man says is going to backfire on him, and soon.



Word. The best example that illustrates this point is that no mentally ill individuals are even permitted to be in Shill's audience. Mental illness is just too heavy for him to handle. You can't help a bipolar person with a cute catchy phrase.



I concur, especially in the case of FUF1. Guys, you know I'm not down with Marty, but what Shill and the women pulled yesterday was the most counterproductive, cruel thing I have seen on television in a long while (well, aside from his Stacy Smackdown...you should never upset a pregnant woman like that).

You could see it written all over Marty's sniveling little face (hee!): the utter betrayal, giving way to utter contempt. The one person in the world you should be able to implicitly trust is your therapist (mine is just under my husband on the trust hierarchy). Marty's therapist betrayed him. On national television. How, pray tell, does that "help" anyone or anything, save for Shill's ratings? I find Marty completely repugnant, don't get me wrong; however, the man has a life to live and now he is thoroughly humiliated. That doesn't help him, and I think he really needs help.

Okay, okay, okay...so Marty volunteered to have his life put on television. Does that make Shill's ambush any less vile? I don't think so. I'll bet that Marty never thought that he would be treated like that in the course of his "therapy."

Oh, right. Entertainment.



Isn't there an old saying about needing to be a bullshit artist yourself in order to see someone else as one? That's how I feel about Stacy. I don't like the woman, I think she needs to have her legs sewn together, but I do think she has balls the size of Cleveland for standing up to Shill the way she did. She's been through the training...arguably the same about as Shill...and she just wasn't going to buy into his line of feel-good, catchy-phrase-riddled line of bullshit. (I mean, Jesus, I've only been a therapy patient and I can see through Shill.) This disturbed Shill so damn much that he had to have the Stacy Smackdown, which was nothing short of appalling. He almost seemed to be getting some sort of perverse thrill out of upsetting her so much. Getting his jollies out of making her "atone" for her "sins"...that is, calling Shill out on his nonsense and letting the world see it every week on their television sets.

Regarding Robin...she fits the image of the wife I think Shill would need to have. No real opinions of her own, her life is her family, her greatest concerns are whether or not they will have those Aigner shoes on sale at Dillard's this week, her deepest thought is making sure to catch the Friends series finale. There is nothing wrong with any of those things having a place in your life, but where Robin is concerned, there is nothing else going on, it seems. There's nothing wrong with a husband putting a wife on a pedestal, but there should be some sort of substance there. With Robin, I'm just not seeing it. Her life is Phil. Phil left his first wife. And who is the guy who keeps saying "the greatest indicator of future behavior is past behavior"?

I would have to agree with this. Seems what used to be an interesting, change-of-pace constructive show has now torn a page out of Oprah's book.
They just throw money down the toilet when they could be doing amazing things with it to really help people. Sending Alex from FUF1 to "paradise" to study marine biology?? Is that really necessary?? If you want to get her some experience, send her someplace more local and put the rest in a college fund incentive to further that study.

I don't understand the "throw money at it" trend. Plus, it seems like the talks are getting harsher and shorter. Like the traditional talkshow audience likes it.
I do believe he has alot to offer, as does Oprah, but they are both going about it in narcissistic, money-oriented ways. That's NOT realistic.

Since we're all talking about "why we watch Dr. Phil," let me chime in. I think the shows where he deals with people who have "smaller" problems -- for instance, the overcompetitive mom, the woman who insisted her husband buy her gifts in exchange for sex, the people who can't stop obsessing over everything that went wrong at their weddings, etc. -- are highly entertaining and for a lot of those folks, seeing the taped footage and getting a "wake-up call" from DP prove very effective. Those shows are a lot of fun to watch, and I believe a lot of those people really DO change their ways post-intervention.

However, there's a big difference between a grown woman who can't stop talking "baby talk" but whose life is basically OK in most other ways, and incredibly troubled families like FUF1 & FUF2. I think the problem is that DP is overly ambitious. Helping people like Marty & Erin, who don't even know what it's LIKE to be in a non-dysfunctional environment, would take years, if it's even possible at all. I mean, they're in their 40s. That's a lot of life experience and unhealthy patterns to overcome.

My parents refuse to watch the FUF shows because they find them too upsetting. I can't help but watch them, because I just kind of sit back and marvel at how screwed-up people can be. But I don't think it's healthy for people to air their intimate problems on TV for months at a time. I also believe that while it's one thing for Marty & Erin and Stacy & Chris to do so, it's another thing to subject their minor children to this exposure. Junior high school is bad enough without every kid in class knowing that your dad cheated on your mom or that your sister is sneaking out to have sex with her boyfriend. I'd be interested to see how this impacts these kids down the road.

Also, I must add that if I had gotten knocked up & delivered a baby at age 15, my dad wouldn't have let me date until I was, like, 30 years old. I SO do not get the whole "Alex wants to go back to dating and being a typical teenager" thing. She's 16. If I were her parent, I'd tell her that as long as she's a minor and living under my roof, she's not gonna be alone with a boy without a chaperone present!

The Alex going back to dating thing really bugs me. Really. She's not a 35 year old divorced parent who is getting her life back, like everyone has said, she's 16 freaking years old! She shouldn't have a life at this point. But they really do treat her like she's a lot older than she actually is and that's part of the problem too. Just because she gave birth doesn't mean she's any older or more mature than she was before that. I see little or no growth since then.

Re: The update show on Fri., ok the kid with a porno and his pants down is just disturbing. That is definitely a learned behavior, the dad should either get some locks on the door or watch what his kid is watching on TV a LOT more closely. A 4 year old should not know that behavior. His wife has a lot more patience than I would.

The drug addict really did look a lot younger. Good for her.
The tell it like it is girl was so me, only I'm not nearly that bad, some people just really aren't comfortable with feelings and such like that.

Maybe it is just me, but after all the other shit that this guy taught his son, all of which ghastly inappropriate, I could see him showing his kid how to masturbate. He already seems to have some twisted, male-dominant ideas. I think that the kid learned it at home from Knife Dad.

Excellent point. I also find the FUF shows becoming more disturbing. Their entertainment shock value wore off pretty quick and seems to be something that perhaps shouldn't be paraded on afternoon tv. These are HIGHLY dysfunctional familys with minor children. It's one thing to talk to the parents on tv, but the children are being pulled in too deep... especially considering "real life" standards in counseling minors.

I also agree with an earlier statement about FUF1's Erin riding the fence. She needs to either do something or get off the pot for the sake of her daughters. They already have a screwed up perspective of men and mom's hollow threats can be confusing. It seems like one would have a different perspective when working with older parents as opposed to minor children... but everyone is being thrown in the same pot. Same for the daughter in FUF2.... that poor child has YEARS of therapy ahead of her!

And as for Knife Dad.... those kind of guys scare the bejeebees outta me!!

I only caught the last quarter or so of the update show on Friday. I only saw the "tell it like it is" woman (thanks katymo!). When I realized what they were talking about, I was tempted to change the channel because it was hitting a bit close to home, but I decided I might learn something, so I watched.

I've been told I'm a little too blunt sometimes, so I could totally relate to what she was saying. I often find other people to be far too "polite" and wishy-washy. I'm not talking about decent human respect - I don't think it's appropriate to be cruel and harsh and express my opinion NO MATTER WHAT. But things like "small talk" ("Hi, how are you [even though I don't really care]?") annoy the hell out of me. I see a lot of people act in a very phony way, saying and doing things they don't want to say or do, and I have little patience for it.

That being said, I'm not sure I liked DP's approach. Granted, I didn't see all of the segment, but what I did see involved him role playing with the woman. He didn't really acknowledge that people see things differently, and express their emotions in different ways. I didn't care for how he seemed to gawk at her explanations, like it was some abhorrent behavior, like everyone must be hand-holders or they're freaks (especially ironic coming from DP).

In my case, after hurting a few people's feelings, I decided to become more aware of how I was saying things, because although I always want to be truthful, I've since realized there are many ways to truthfully express the same thing. I suppose that was DP's point, but he just seemed so "uh... YE-AH!" about it.

I totally missed the Knife Dad and kid. I was very disturbed by the first episode featuring them. I'd really like to know what DP said to this couple. If someone would give a quick break down of what was shown and what DP said, I would really appreciate it.

Hey robbie, drphil.com has a pretty indepth synopsis of every show. It is where I go when I cannot bear to watch a particular show sometimes, ie FUF2.

Thanks borokat! I didn't realize there were recaps on drphil.com. I find that site very difficult to navigate, most of the time, but I stumbled right across the recap after reading your post.

The recap didn't say what Tony's reply to DP's question of "Where'd he learn [to look at porn with his pants down]?". Did he even respond? I'm really afraid for that little boy.

The knife Dad denied having anything to do with teaching his son to masturbate to porn, and said that his therapist suggested maybe the child saw a picture in the magazine that he was copying. (what kind of porn shows men with their pants down, masturbating to porn? I admit, my exposure to porn has been limited to soft-core "Playboy" type stuff, but WTF?)

If, as the father insists, he didn't model the behaviour for his son, who did? It could have been an uncle, the father of one of his friends, a babysitter...I shudder to think of what might have happened. Dr. Phil didn't really get into the sinister implications, but I sure hope the family's therapist is on top of this.

Has anyone been to the Dr Phil Soundboard site?? It's pretty funny and just about sums up the advice he dishes out on his show.

I didn't see the episode, so I'm going to ask a potentially stupid question about Knife Dad and his son. Where exactly did this child obtain this pornography? It's not like he can buy it himself. And regardless of how he, uh, uses it, why are they letting him watch it?

As for Alex dating...No. Just, no.

ultimategirl, iirc, the boy had a porno magazine. Knife Dad made some reply that he thought he had gotten rid of all the 'bad' stuff. So, I'm assuming that the mag was the dad's and the kid swiped it. Of course, with this guy, he might have given it to his son. Hard to say.

Somebody needs to tell Alex and her parents that life does not equal dating. There are plenty of other things to do with your life. It's not going to kill her to not date right now when she's got an infant child. Grr!

Everybody has made some really good points about the regulations surrounding minors and therapy.

Well, to me that's kind of the problem. I don't see the role of the therapist as someone who you're supposed to challenge to some sort of mental dual of wits, as Stacy does. I can't stand it when I hear people bragging that they quit therapy because they somehow "outsmarted" their therapist. As if they only reason they went in the first place is for a chance to participate in a forum of intellectual chess. Yeah, you outsmarted your therapist, and your still in the same pattern of self destructive behavour, so pat yourself on the back and here's your grand prize trophy in the Whoopie-fuckkin-doo category. Its not high school debate class. Its really easy to continue to shift the focus on what a supposed "quack" your therapist is when it keeps the focus off of you.

If someone hires me as a personal fitness trainer, and they refuse to do the exercises I suggest for them (and then proceed to bitch that they haven't lost any weight since hiring me), I would suggest that they not employ my services anymore. That's not being passive aggressive, manipulative, or feeding my ego .... it's just avoiding a waste of everyone's precious fucking time.

The FUF really bugs me. First of all, I don't know if I would have gotten out of the house enough to get pregnant and have a baby at 15. Secondly, if I did, Mama would have locked me up, told Daddy to keep me locked up when I was visiting him, and I would have only been allowed to go to school and come home and take care of my kid. Alex gave up the right to be a normal teenager when she became a mother. My grandmother told me all my life that once you have children, they are your life.

My mom went through a few spells of dating and "need my own life" things between husbands, which I didn't begrudge her, but she did a lot of it at my expense (going on a date when I had just gotten out of the hospital that day after having surgery, unplugging the phone, and putting it in the trunk of her car) but I would never leave my kids to date. If someone offers to watch your baby, that's different (and it's a special occasion type thing). Alex needs to concentrate on Nathan and school and her parents need to stop acting like it's so damn cute that she got pregnant and had a baby at 15.

I'm probably going to get slammed for this BUT there are some situations/problems whereby children, and I mean CHILDREN of 14, 15, 16 should not be given absolute credence for their opinions. I'm speaking specifically of Alex, Katherine, FUF1 and Brianne of FUF2. So, Shill speaks to them as an adult but he fails to filter their answers of coming from hormonal teenagers with hormonally charged issues.

Respect for their feelings? Yes. But to take every single word that drops from their petulant little mouths as absolute gospel is pandering to their hyper-sensitive emotions.

What kind of good can possibly be had after last Thursday's ep of "Let's get Marty"? Yep, he's a creep and everytime I see him, I want to take a shower. But to allow those girls to kill whatever emotion he might have had stirring in him was overkill.

I think had Shill been given time to do some homework instead of rushing from one episode into another, hour on top of hour, he might have thought better of his own behaviour. He was clearly out of control.

I've read that Oprah watches every ep of Shill. She was probably pee-peeing in her Dior panties.

ETA: I've raised 4 children and know that filters are necessary.

Tallulah-darlin', slam you? Think not. Much more eloquently than I could, you've said what I've been thinking. This is where I lose track with the whole "perception/reality" thing. Teenagers are smack in the middle of hormonal churn, and their job in life is to be over-emotional, over-dramatic, over-sensitive, and general pains in the ass. It is the parents' job to instill a little reality and rational thought. For instance, "No, Alex, I can't watch Nathan tonight for you while you go off and have fun. I have [choir practice, Junior League, bingo night, a planned valium binge] and can't help you. You need to stay home and be the mom you chose to be."

[insert appropriate attribute here] says the best present you can give your kids is to model a healthy loving relationship. Okay, Erin and Marty aren't in the position to do that. What would the next best thing be? To at least model life as a responsible adult? Would that be too hard to ask these folks?

I swear, I am sick to death of these FUF#1 so-called "parents". What part of this statement do they not understand?

When you chose to be a mother, you gave up some things you might otherwise have had. If you wanted a 'normal' adolescence, you should have given that child up for adoption. When you chose to keep him, you decided to become a full-time mother. Single mothers of babies don't have a lot of time for their own stuff. Your jobs are to go to school and to take care of that child.

When I think of the lifestyle hits that any person takes during the infancies of their children, I am appalled about Alex. I get that no one fully understands what parenthood is it until they become one (partly because parenthood seems to show up differently for different people). And I realize she is in many ways still a child herself. But what she needs from her parents is quite straight-forward:

• firm boundaries around the consequences of her choices ("when you chose to be Nathan's mommy, you chose to give up a full social life until he is a little older")
• support around living with those boundaries ("yeh, it is very hard sometimes; let's think of ways to get you some relief without abandoning your responsibilities")
• an appropriate amount of help (no more "I can afford all the babysitting I need" -- this child has no job, so why does she have unlimited money?)
• help building life skills that she will need earlier than most people and that she can't afford to screw up while learning (she needs to know how to budget, how to deal with money, how to arrange for Nathan's care, how to deal with financial emergencies, and she needs to learn this without crashing and burning, since any crashes she has will burn Nathan, too)

If her so-called parents can't help with that, why isn't Dr. Phil sitting them all down and talking about how when she chose to keep Nathan, she chose to give up all the things that all responsible parents of infants give up (full night's sleep, the ability to drop everything and run over to the mall without thinking about how the logistics will work, the opportunity to engage in an extremely active social life that involves being baby-less and away from home a great deal of the time)????

I just have to say that from reading the last ten or fifteen pages of this thread, I have learned a lot. The insights here are really amazing.



I'm eighteen and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm pretty much over the hormonal churn, but believe me, I have days (or weeks) where that is EXACTLY how I behave. Even though I'm at college, my parents know just what to say to me. They sort of put a pinhole in the balloon of my ego/pity party. Without them and their reality checks, and also the boundaries they have set for me, no doubt I would be exactly like the teenagers being spoken of in this thread.

I'd love to see you all on Dr. Phil's show. You could probably teach him a thing or two about parenting, seeing as how he's not helping this family.

Today's show was sad, although, I have to admit I cannot even comprehend being so insecure that I sabotage my loved one's eating habits so he will stay 800 POUNDS and not leave me. Mr. B. has gained about 5-10 since we have been together and I am constantly trying to get him to exercise. Because I want to keep him around as long as possible, it is amazing that this guy is still ALIVE.

Ewwwwww, how does he even use the bedpan? Wouldn't it all... get crushed? How can his wife get the 'pan out from under his fat ass? And how does he even find his penis to have a squee (into a bucket, apparently)? What... ewwwww. That bathroom info he gave really grossed me out.

Me too. Phil is a shmuck. Those weight loss challenge commericals made me want to gag, I half expected him to turn to one of the contestants, already suffering from low self esteem and body issues and say, "you're fired!". No sooner do these folks struggle to get thier weight in line and they have yet another authority figure telling them they're not good enough. I'm surpurised he hasn't tried to get Robin a consulting gig on "the Swan" yet. Arrgghhh!