Man, who would have thought I'd be the one triple posting. In THIS thread.

Dr. Mathra sent me this link today.

Quanutm, you gotta have it.

It was just funny.

I saw a few minutes of a rerun ER last night (one right after Dr. Green dies) and I noticed Noah Wylie furrowing... except that he had a tiny little furrow, just a couple itty bitty lines.
That made me realize that one of the reasons Quantum gets so much grief from us about furrowing is that his furrowing is so darned noticable (involving his entire forehead). I'm not saying this excuses excessive furrowing, but I thought I might point out that as far as furrowing goes, he's at a genetic disadvantage. (Not in any other respect, of course!) Or perhaps he has a genetic advantage - extremely furrowable forehead - and just needs to tone it down.
In any case, the thought gave me new empathy for SB. (That was helped along by my appreciation of his performance in Last Bakulafield.)

Qvantum (on the ) Bay? Oh, no! Not Qvantum (on the ) Bay!

Bakula was pretty good in Proving Ground, I thought, then I noticed the haircut. Perhaps it's one of those Herculean (or am I thinking of Samson?) things where haircut is related to performance. Very short hair, better acting. Also edited to say that it was the first time Archer was captain-like for me.

Hehehe. Is that like how armies with shorter hair-cuts win wars?

Quantum's hair's so short now that if it gets any shorter, he's going to set up the Federation all on his own. Oh wait, isn't that what happens anyway?

uh-oh!

be warned, spoilers.
also, it is time sensitive, it will change on Wednesday.

Mildly spoilery photo and caption at silversword's link. Some folks are trying to remain completely spoiler-free, silver. I recommend the Spectre of the Spoiler thread for guidance.

yikes! Thanks for the head's up, Gythah Ogg! Sorry, guys! I was just referring to the picture of CQ(trying to make a joke, albeit a lousy one that backfired), did not realize the potential for spoilery

Spectre of the Spoiler read and noted!

I just watched Life as a House for the first time and it was quite interesting to hear Scott Bakula say, "What the fuck?!"

Looks like he really trimmed down to be in Enterprise.

I've always wanted to hear an ENT crew member utter those very same words when facing an unknown and scary spaceship...

Word. Sure beats Uhura's "I'm frightened, Captain." Though I wouldn't have minded hearing Harry Kim say that to Janeway once. And yes, I'm sure there's some K/P stories out there that have Harry saying that. I just don't go there.

Was having a think about Babylon 5 and how very early on fans complained that Commander Sinclair was really stiff and dull and that Michael O'Hare wasn't a terribly good actor. Then, of course, we find out the reason that Sinclair is stiff and dull is because he's a Minbari from way back. Then, I got to thinking about Quantum and though obviously not a Minbari, perhaps he's supposed to be all furrowed with a painfully ponderous sense of humour and he's supposed to be a self-righteous arse. Who said that starship captains had to be charismatic. In First Flight, AG tells Quantum that he tried too hard and that captains have to be all rounders, etc (I'm paraphrasing but it was something like that), so Quantum plays the all rounder with the hopeless incompetence of someone who isn't terribly good at people but thinks he is.

I love Scott Bakula - always have, always will. Even if Archer isn't as wonderful a character as Sam Becker, I still think Bakula does a good job with what the writers give him.

That said, I just wanted to let you all know (cause I haven't seen it posted anywhere yet, although I might have missed it) that Season One Quantum Leap is now available for pre-order at Amazon, and is being released in June. Finally! Best. Show. Ever.

We have a Quantum Leap discussion thread here and a buyer's remorse thread here.

Wow Mr Sneer, I really like the Archer/Sinclair comparison. How happy would I die if Archer was Valenn? Well, not really but you know what I mean. There certainly is possibility for Archer to be that level of an historical personage. Theoretically he not only helps to form the Federation but he also invents the Prime Directive. Yeah, yeah, it's not canon--yet. But I'll be watching the character with a new hope for that level of secret depth.

Unfortunately Belsum, my theory got shot down today when I read on startrek.com that Archer is supposed to be charismatic. I like my theory better...

I don't know, I think Sinclair is charismatic - in his way. But then, I think the Minbari are charismatic, too. *follows Lennier around*

I like that comparison, too. :-)

I adored Sinclair from the get go but I got the 'secret pain' thing straightaway with him. I don't get that sort of thing from Quantum, though I'm hoping for hidden depths as well. I think he's more interesting when he's being ruthless as per the increasing amount in the last season. I also think he's interesting when he's nuts and letting little insects crawl over him. Loved that bit of acting there, right before Trip shot him.

I have to say that I really really loved Quantum in "Azati Prime." The way he held his own during the interrogation by the Xindi was phenomenal.

I was, I should say, not convinced by his argument for why he should be the suicide pilot. Would it be better to discuss that here, or in the episode thread?

Either.

Me neither. May-I-have-a-good-point was right. Quantum's the least expendable person on the ship. Had things gone as planned, when the weapon was destroyed, Quantum would need to captain the ship away, Xindi on their tail, and get them all home safely.

He may not have wanted to give up someone else's life, but May-I-fly-the-mission and Trip were both willing and able. And by not letting the best pilot with the most experience flying the Xindi pod fly the mission, he put the mission at risk.

Yup. Sorry, Quantum. You're the Captain; occasionally you have to make the tough choices.

But on the positive side, it was written as if the captain knew he had made some questionable choices during the quest to find the weapon, therefore he didn't want to kill anyone else. Perhaps by destroying himself, Archer felt he was cleansing his soul. Hmmm...

I agree that Archer should not have gone on the mission. There was little chance that the plan was going to work and, if it didn't, then Archer should have been on ENT to think of another one.

It's strange that Archer said he didn't want to order anyone to his death when he could have said he didn't want to send anyone to his death. As someone in the episode thread pointed out, Mayweather and Trip volunteered for the mission, so Archer wouldn't have been ordering anyone to do anything. I guess this was just a slip in the writing.

Maybe not a slip in the writing, but more expressing the way Quantum feels.

Skategrrl, you make a good point. Maywhatever getting captured by the Xindi is far less interesting than Quantum getting captured. The writers needed to get Quantum there. And it was good that his decision was framed in the context of his past actions, rather than just Quantum wanting to be the hero.

I don't agree with Quantum flying the mission, but I understood why he did, beyond the writers needing him to.

Whether they volunteered or not, I could see Quantum still regarding it as following his orders even if it's not technically true.

Anyone else think that Archer is an awful lot like Capt. Pike from TOS? From the one episode where we saw him, Pike came across as pretty short tempered and very impatient, particularly when compared to Kirk. Of course, he also had a somewhat excitable Vulcan at his side. Or maybe I only think that because Nimoy was yelling all of his lines...

I just re-watched The Expanse and a few other episodes of the arch that I had (partly) forgotten about and all of a sudden I find it striking how consistently Archer is written and acted. When he is informed of the attack on Earth and informs the crew he comes across as utterly shell-shocked so he apparently was hit hard by the news – and after the initial shock his reaction is one of anger, not least of all turned inwards. This is entirely in character (see: Shockwave).

When they returned to Earth he found himself being either doubted by the Vulcans or put under pressure by Star Fleet (see: the conversations with Admiral Forrest in the S’pod and just before, eh, take off). Then his conversation in the mess hall with Trip where he is pretty much promises to betray his own sense of morality to complete the mission – I’m not sure how much of his response to Trip’s pressure is due to his own anger and how much is due to his feeling of obligation towards Trip. What is also telling in that scene is his description of how the previous two years changed his perspective on commanding a star ship. That the frequently dangerous reality of it was very far from what he believed to his (and his father’s) dream. The weight of the world is something that we’ve joked about a lot but it is an integral part of understanding Archer.

I don’t think that he believes that he can live up to the task at hand. Certainly his obsessive behaviour and occasional lack of empathy towards his crew indicates that something is wrong. That he simply doesn’t have the resources to care about himself or anyone else for that matter. Between his loss of illusions and the feeling of inadequacy I think he has lost hope somewhere along the way. Since somewhere between Similitude and Stratagem his resignation has slowly become more and more obvious (because of his decisions regarding Sim or meeting Degra and realising that a real person - with regrets - was behing the previously faceless attack?) and I’m curious as to how he will react as the situation tenses further.

I’m impressed at how this has slowly unfolded without ever becoming entirely obvious. I can’t say that I really like Archer. He makes mistake after mistake and often comes across callous and selfish but in a strange way I feel for him. During Broken Bow he was a man with ideals and hopes for the future. He wasn’t much of a diplomat and had frequent bouts of Foot-in-mouth disease but he tried (with enthusiasm). Now he seems broken and without much hope for himself or anyone else.

Someone mentioned (in the Forgotten thread I think) that it is somehow impressive how well Bakula has played the role. I’m becoming more and more convinced that we’re not really meant to like Archer the way we liked Picard (well, some of us did) but rather to believe him a real, flawed person. And flawed individuals are always far more interesting than the ideal and purely heroic.

On the other hand I could be over-interpreting this severely – it wouldn’t be the first time.

I don't think you're overthinking it; actually, you've given me a lot to think about. I've had problems with what a jerk Archer's been since at least the events of Cogenitor, and before that with what an idiot he could be. (A Night In Sickbay, anyone?)

The idiocy I could deal with, because he's the first, and doesn't have anyone's example to fall back on and was stumbling through. His being an insensitive jerk, however, has bugged. But everything you've said has made me really want to go back and really pay close attention -- anything that will help me understand this character is welcome food for thought, Silja.

What has bugged me about Quantum is that his characterization has been a little inconsistent. He tries to draw Malcolm out (thinking of Silent Enemy and Minefield) and then he withdraws from the crew.

In Broken Bow I just wanted him to stop yelling. That seems to be his reaction to everything since the beginning, which makes me wonder how he got to be captain in the first place. Especially considering in First Flight how he's advised to relax more, think outside of the box.

Perhaps it boils down to the fact that his whole life has centered around being a Starfleet captain. What happens when he gets promoted to a desk job?

If his whole life has focused on this one dream and this one ambition, many different facets have been left unpolished. And in that way he's also pretty uninteresting because he's so one-dimensional. Furthermore, the idea and the dream certainly hasn't lived up to reality and now what does he do? He's having a hard time adjusting and perhaps he blames himself, for his failings.

Hopefully, should Enterprise return to Earth, this mission will have allowed Archer to grow a bit, and accept the true role of captain. With this new understanding, he'll start to throw out a few ideas of the Federation. It's obvious you can't go it alone and they've only managed to muck it up for the most part. It would be a great character development if he started to think along those lines. Life handed him lemons, let's hope he gets out of his doldrums and makes lemonade.

Silja, I don't think you're over-interpreting at all. The writing, directing, and acting have all led us to feel uncomfortable with Archer's character. I think that Archer doesn't feel comfortable with himself, and we're meant to feel that with him. Just from the scene in "The Forgotten" with Trip and T'Pol when he tells Trip to write the letter, he just doesn't look like he feels comfortable in his own skin. He's fidgeting the entire time. He's nervous. I don't think it's a problem with Bakula's acting. We know that he's quite capable of playing an extremely likable character (Quantum Leap).

You're right. We're not supposed to like him right now. We respect what he has to do, but we don't like him for it. It's as if he doesn't like himself for what he has to do to accomplish his mission, and therefore we shouldn't either.

My problem is that Archer has never been likeable. I understand Silja's (very good) analysis of his character, but it seems as if Archer simply has different reasons for being an ass.

So being a captain is not exactly what he wanted. Deal. Life almost never unfolds as we expect it to, but we accept this and move on. Archer's problem, as frenchtoast mentioned, is that he had a preconceived notion of what being a captain meant and now that reality is not living up to his expectations, he's lashing out. There are quite a few people who have had experience with life not living up to fantasy, namely, the entire adult population of humanity.

IMO, Archer has only had a justifiable reason for being an ass this season, what with the Save!Earth!Now! mission. I could understand why he would have a short temper or otherwise be a jerk because of all the pressure. But again, he just seems to be laching on to any reason to be a jerk instead of actually doing what's trully difficult: changing.

To follow-up with what also bothers me about Archer: the guy is so boring. Since his whole life has been, gotta be a captain, gotta be a captain, he never cultivated any hobbies or interests. Streak the ship, write poetry, become a human being, do something other than furrow.

Also, he's so focused on being captain that he's lost touch with his crew. In my opinion that makes for lousy leadership if you don't know the sentiments and/or problems that your crew is facing.

What makes this problem even worse is that he is the centerpiece of the show. The other characters could be so much more interesting if we saw them more, but he bores them to tears or alienates them. It's a real problem in the show.

Like I already said in the "Forgotten" thread, until Quantum actually comes up with a reason for being such an ass to Trip when they first heard of the Florida attack, I see the guy as a fairly unredeeming jerk.



Except waterpolo, right?

Aren't "boring" and "waterpolo" roughly synonymous? Hee. (Kidding!)

I was amused by the poll in the new recap. Yep, Archer and RevCam are both "sanctimonious pricks" (I believe that was the wording). However, there is absolutely no choice involved for me- he may be a sanctimonious prick, but Archer is a damn fine sanctimonious prick.

And, as far as we've seen, that's no stray gumball wandering around in there.

I was surprised there were any votes for RevCam also. I'll have to go back and check the numbers. When I voted, it was 9 people for Archer vs. 3 for RevCam. Hopefully, the Rev's votes were clicking mistakes and haven't increased.

Hee. "Stray gumball" will never get old.

And the nervous twitch induced by the phrase never goes away...

Well, [*sheepishly looking down at the floor*], I didn't understand the poll until my officemate explained it to me, and then there was really no decision to make. RevCam? Ew.

The way I see it is that I ask myself, 'Would you want Quantum as your supervisor or even as a teammate?' And my answer is 'No.' I've had too many already like him and I would rather not have another.

You know, even if CQ is supposed to come across as unlikeable, I still don't get why Bakula can't play him with more, I don't know, shadings. He's always the same kind of unlikeable, the same kind of stern. From QL, we know the actor is capable of great charm and great versatility. Here I often feel that he is locked down tight and won't budge. And instead of feeling like I'm getting to know him better, he seems to be drifting farther and farther away as a person. Show us some little ideosyncrasies--and no, not just giving Porthos cheese!

Had I not been confused by the description on startrek.com of Archer being charismatic (confused due to him not being so), I would now be completely convinced of my previous speculation that he knows he's not terribly good with people (hence the ponderous sense of humour, for example) and tries too hard. I think I'd probably like him more if the official bio was 'Captain Archer is the try-too-hard-with-people-yet-still-doesn't-get-them captain of the starship Enterprise.'

Considering the weekly mangling at the hands of the UPN promo monkeys I’m not taking anything seriously that is written by the Paramount Publicity People. I prefer to watch the show and ignore the rest – it’s much less frustrating that way.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that either the publicity flunkies didn't watch the show or Bakula didn't read Quantum's character brief.

zooropa said in the "Zero Hour" thread:

I don't think they did establish Archer as charismatic. What I saw was a captain who got extra stiff and uncomfortable whenever the viewscreen came on. He seemed to really like test-piloting and wanted to explore the galaxy, but the whole thing where he had to talk to other people wasn't really his expertise.

dml:

But I think Daniels believes that from his perspective, looking back and reading history. It seems a lot like Zefram Cochrane in First Contact. Archer isn't a lecherous money-grubber, so it's more subtle.

I'm just saying that where you see the writers trying to make us believe the original characterization, I see character growth. He's getting closer to being the great leader he's supposed to be. Or else he's doing the things that make him stumble into his place in history, which is why Daniels thinks he's so great.

I can picture Daniels having a wee crush on Archer and then finding out that his hero isn't the shining armour knight of his imagination. Explains the whining tone, anyway.

Case in point how these kinds of things work: John Adams, of Braintree, Massachusetts Colony, is regarded by many today as a hero, a patriot, and one of the chief minds involved in shaping our country today.

In reality, Adams was a xenophobe, fearing the intentions of anyone non-English (see his writings for evidence, or the Alien and Sedition Acts). He wound up backing the Revolution solely because he saw its success as the only way of keeping his neck out of a noose (he was sufficiently influential that it seemed unlikely he could convince the Crown that he could not have stopped the rebels; thus, had they lost, he would have been hung. Had the rebels succeeded, and he sat on the sidelines, they would have assumed him a Tory bastard, and he would have been hung. He had to back them, and they had to win). When the new government was being formed, he tried very hard to get Washington appointed as King - with himself as duly elected Crown Prince, of course.

Adams "stumbled into his place in history", and today, many whose scholarship isn't as careful as it should be think of him as a shining, untainted hero. You can see how something similar could have happened to Archer, especially when seen through the prism of a thousand years...

I really like your Adams comparison Irish. I've been thinking lately that maybe Archer's lasting contribution is causing a Federation to be formed as a backlash to his behavior. What with the pirating and all. Perhaps the prism of history then shows all his particularly douche-y moves as being "deliberate" to "lead" us towards our great future.

But on the whole, I'm not an Archer Hater. I agree with prolixiii's description from the Zero Hour thread:

I hope the character keeps getting developed along the same lines.