So, I was looking at this blog about gay storylines on soaps all over the world (USA, Britain, Spain, Germany, Netherlands) and it made think about how gay storylines work or don't work.

Should soaps have gay storylines? Are they treated differently? What are positive and negative examples?

I think one problem with gay and lesbian storylines will always be that you can't just have a gay character on a soap. You need another one for a couple and another for a triangle and ideally yet another one for a quad. But by that time many viewers might perceive that as too much or you have to have, errr, swing players who do both gay and straight romances.

Is it okay when soaps acts like gay storylines are something that needs to be eased into? Are they under actual pressure from advertisers? Should gay viewers even look at daytime for representation or just figure that it will get botched anyway or are soaps usually the more or less quiet ground breakers in a lot of areas?

I think a lot of the problem with gay storylines in soaps (U.S. soaps being my reference point, of course) is that TIIC simply do not know how to write an authentic and organic story for gay characters. Too often G/B/T characters are sainted to show how "with it" and "accepting" TPTB are. They are then either portrayed as completely celebate (because, Heaven forbid, a G/B/T person actually have an honest love interest portrayed on-screen), or they are trotted out as a gimmick (Bianca and Zarf, anyone?) or an after school special-type story that promptly shuttles the G/B/T character off-screen.

I guess it's just the fact that TIIC can't seem to grasp the fact that a G/B/T pairing can have the the same formula as any other type of romantic pairing.

It just seems like a complicated situation. Their availability for triangles is very limited unless they swing both ways. And if you make them scheming characters instead then the shows get flack for that.

That said, that doesn't excuse that when there is a chance for a triangle, (like when Bianca, Lena and Maggie were around at the same time), they don't do it right either.

Personally I'm not a big fan of triangles in general. I think there overdone. There are other possible sources of tension in a relationship besides another love interest. Which isn't to say triangles should never be done,just not as often as they are.

But triangles are the bread and butter of soaps. Granted, part of why I feel this way is because my main soap is B&B which consists pretty much only of triangles and quadrangles, but still, you name me the soap character who has been on a soap for a prolonged period of time and had had a decent amount of screentime and who has never been involved in a triangle.

And whether people like them or not, isn't it the triangle storylines people remember? Brooke/Ridge/Taylor. Jax/Brenda/Sonny. Roman/Marlena/John. Billie/Bo/Hope.

If you have a character incapable of triangles that is the soap equivalent of chopping his or her legs off.

I certainly don't think gay characters should never be involved in triangles but I do think it is an overused storyline. While it is an important type of storyline for soaps you don't need charcters near constantly in triangles like on some soaps. Frequently these days writers involve a third person in a storyline when it really isn't needed and doesn't add anything to the storyline.

These days? That's hardly a new development. Not all triangles are romantic (the outsider can be a evil manipulator rather than the person in the middle being genuinely torn; or it can be an intrusive or concerned parent), but I would still consider them *the* thing soaps are built on.

Some soaps have occasional additional legs (General Hosptal used to have health storylines, but it's been ages since it's been that way, now it's the mob; Y&R has business, Days has adventure storylines), but even then they are usually a backdrop for new triangles or new romances to develop.

Seems like the best opportunities to get meaty screentime outside of romances are to either attract a serious illness or turn evil, neither particularly attractive choices for a gay character.

That's why I'm still pissed how they wrote Lena on AMC. They had a prime opportunity for a triangle with Bianca's other girl. And Lena had a messed up/criminal past AND she was bisexual so triangles with a straight man would have been possible in the future. Most squandered opportunity ever.

Speaking of that, Bianca/Lena/Maggie, eat your heart out.

Most don't know how to write for straight characters either.

Hee! Point taken. :)

Good point.



I know that Lena was supposed to bisexual at the beginning but it seemed to me like they were trying to present her as gay once her pairing with Bianca took off. I'm not sure why they did that.

I think it's hard to tell. I think she was supposed to be all about Bianca and therefore not having eyes for anyone else and she wasn't really around enough or had enough screentime to really say for sure.

That said, I do get the impression that even if a gay character is supposed to have had relationships with the opposite sex before, once they turn gay on screen there seems to be a push for them to be gay only (kinda like Willow from Buffy). Which I guess makes sense from a GLTB politics POV, but it always struck me as a bit shortsighted from a soap POV.

Personally, I'd love to see a Captain Jack Harkness-style (Torchwood) character on a soap. There'd be SO much storyline potential in bringing on a charming gorgeous character who unapologetically flirts with (and follows through into the bedroom from time to time) both women and men. Any number of romantic entanglements and battles could ensue, and the character would inspire some very strong reactions from the locals. Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated recently, even if a good portion of the audience seems to be ready for less traditional characters, the producers are still buckling under pressure to keep to the "straight and narrow," as it were. Pity.

If an American soap tried this, I think we would get a bisexual female on AMC, whose bisexuality would be limited to sleeping with men, flirting with women, and making out with Greenlee or Kendall for February sweeps. Then in May sweeps she would be raped, with an implication that she asked for it, Ryan would find her rapist, she would fall in love with Ryan, and she would be straight forever after.

Personally, I'd love it if more "straight" characters were to have had some sort of same sex experiences. Like, have some old same sex flame from college drop by, do some non-permanent love affairs if the writers think that having a permanent gay character is too risky or not interest enough.

I'm not thinking of some 2 week stunt during sweeps week, just a normal couple storyline. Take a random not too slutty character, James on B&B started out in love with Taylor, then had a storyline with Brooke, then Maggie than Sheila and a bit of Stephanie. Thorne was with Caroline, Macy, Karen, Brooke, Taylor, Darla and some Donna. These various storylines drove the character's storyline for a year or two usually. Why can't one of these type of storylines be same sex?

I realize that that wouldn't necessarily do as much for the political message for GLTB watchers, but IMO it would do a lot for the tapestry of soaps.

That's where I think a problem lies as well. Anything outside of the standard male/female pairing is considered just that: a message. That's why they always seem to reek of contrivance. It's never suitable to portray them as fallible human beings; it's always a forced, "Gay is GREAT!" complete with the awkward thumbs-up and nervous giggle. TPTB just don't seem comfortable with/interested in the idea of portraying a three-dimensional GLTB character.

OLTL had no problem painting a gay man as being willing to kill several people in order to stay in the closet. Passions was happy to have a man enter into an affair with what turned out to be his brother and go on to spew a series of homophobic talking points when he was discovered by his wife. The problem is that they don't know how to present gay characters as being flawed but still good people. They also don't know how to present them as anything other than their sexuality.

That's also one of the reasons I'm wary of straight characters entering into same-sex relationships, because with the way the soaps are written today, it would be written only for shock value, and the character would get the "just a phase" treatment.

Even though the character became an unhinged asshole/sociopath, I think one of the few believable examples I've seen of a straight character falling for his own gender was Craig Dean on Hollyoaks.

But aren't both sides playing into this? Sure the writers are awkward and insecure about it, but the GLTB plays right into this. A character can't be a schemer or a psycho (even though those characters are often beloved on soaps and are considered meaty roles) because it reinforces gay/bisexual killer stereotypes, they can't be sleeping aroud because it reinforces gay/bisexual promiscuity stereotypes, they can't have het romances because that would be straightwashing them, they can't get sick or die because that is victimizing the gay/bisexual character or makes them asexual. Oh and if you make them all about something else (like their job rather than their sex life) you get criticized too.

If you curtail a character in all these directions you end up exactly with the bland, saintly, committed monogamous perfect character who is absolutely unfit to be part of a soap.

Again, I'm not saying that the writers are doing things right and shouldn't be blamed. But generally it's not the actions (the sleeping around or going psycho or whatever else). All these types of actions can be appealing and an asset to a soap character if the character is only well liked by the writers and it comes through that way. If they wrote a lesbian or gay or bi schemer with a heart of gold, I would be all for it. Because they are an important and popular soap staple.



I have never seen the show or storyline, but I read there was a fairly good portrayel of a story like that on a German soap (Tom and Ulli I think?) where the characters actually stayed together in a happily ever after kind of way.



IMO, if it wasn't written that way (the character saying it was just a phase) I would see it like that. I would just assume that at one point they loved person A and now they love person B (for example the way that Ridge loved Caroline and then loved Brooke and then loved Taylor; I wouldn't say that he had "just a Caroline phase", but that he had a significant relationship with her that was important to his life. So why shouldn't he able to have the same thing with a Bob or Michael or Roger? Not to mention, if viewers actually got the the chance to sample a variety of relationships like that, maybe fans would latch on to one more than the others and that couple then could actually develop into a natural supercouple that ends up being the fixture for the character in question, the one he or she keeps going back to; but a sizable part of all soap couples aren't permanent for the character, so I would expect that to be the default formula for any newly crafted couple)

They would have to articulate very clearly that the character's feelings for that other person were why he or she cared for them, not because they suddenly woke up gay, because otherwise a lot of people would watch the show and think that being gay is something that is a phase. I think that's a very destructive message.

On one of the German soaps they had a character who came out of the closet to everyone and now he's broken up with his boyfriend and is involved with his female best friend, so he has had to tell people he's not gay after all. Germany is more relaxed about sexuality than the States, but if they did something like that in the States I'm concerned about the message conservative viewers (the bulk of the soap audience) would interpret.

Ideally a show would have gay characters as well as characters who are straight and who are sexually fluid, and that way those other characters could balance each other out if a gay man suddenly fell for a woman, or a straight woman suddenly left her boyfriend for another woman.

I'm not expert on the German soaps, but the impression I got was that a lot of the gay or lesbian supercouples actually started out with one part in a straight relationship. Something that I actually think is more organic than soaps that bring on a character to be paired with whatever gay character they have. What if they don't have chemistry? What if they have more chemistry with one of the other actors of the opposite sex? Why not just let them mingle and see where the chemistry goes? At least that would be the organic thing for a soap to do.

In that sense I see nothing wrong with a guy going from a guy to a girl as long as it's a storyline. From an actor POV that strikes me preferable to having nothing to do.

I realize that it wouldn't be much of a message, but imo, if people based their views on women on soaps, wouldn't the "message" be at least as fucked up and troublesome? That all women are shallow sex object, have nothing better to do than chase after men or waffle between men, used children as weapons, have no jobs, scheme and kill and catfight? IMO a soap just isn't the right place to look for any permanent messages.

Yes, and that's one of the reasons I find today's soaps so deplorable in their treatment of women.

Soaps in the past have educated people about issues like pap smears, marital rape, abortion, sexual harassment, etc. A lot of the viewers watching are people who will not get this message anywhere else, or will only understand the message if it happens to the people on their soap that they care about.

Imagine that a grandmother watches ATWT and they have a story where Luke decides he never was gay. Then her grandson comes out to her, and her response is, "Oh, well I saw this happen on one of my shows, and you just need to find the right woman."

If a show is going to get all the press attention and accolades they get for adding a gay character, I think they should at least go as far as to make sure the story is not done in an offensive manner.

But what's the point of doing it right if it just turns out boring? Again, I'm not calling for Luke to be ungayed and I doubt that they ever intend doing it (and to me there is a variety of options below "I changed my mind, I never was gay", that still allow characters to experiment with romances of either sex; not to mention other options like being a schemer rather than a saint). I just think that ultimately staying on message might be detrimental to both the shows and the characters by making them bland and boring and ultimately not fit in.

Not to mention, I always thought that the big advantage of soaps came from making the message come through by giving the issues they were portraying a familiar face. By having things like rape or abortion happen to characters we already love. Bringing a character on just to be gay seems as unpromising to me as bringing on a character just to be raped or get cancer or make a point about racism. Soaps have sidestepped this issue usually by making the children of already established characters gay. Which is actually an interesting issue in itself. I think the average soap viewer is more likely to see themselves in the role of the first shocked and eventually understanding parent rather than them seeing themselves in the gay characters themselves. Which I'm guessing why how the parents deal is the more interesting story from the soap POV.

I'm not okay with characters like Luke and Bianca "experimenting" with the opposite sex. I don't care if they have chemistry with the person. I'm straight but I was really offended when AMC tried to pair Bianca with Zoey the women trapped in a man's body. I don't have probelem with transgendered people but the storyline was presented in a way that pandered to those who wanted to see her straight. The portrayal of gay characters is too much in it's infancy on American Daytime to make it okay for characers like Luke and Bianca to be with people of the opposite sex. It would most likely open the door for them to be turned straight or bisexual. And I think that gay characters should at least be able to stay gay. Especially characters like Luke and Bianca who were apart of groundbreaking storylines.



I don't have a problem with gay characters being less than saints as long as they are well written and complex. I think the problem with the storylines RyanCrowell mentioned is that is sounds like they weren't well written and presented their sexuality in a manner that some might consider harmful or stereotypical. Why can't some write a non-saintly gay character who's flaws or crimes have nothing to do with their sexual orientation? I think as long as their sexuality is not presented in a harmful or homophobic manner than it isn't offensive to have a flawed gay character.

In defense of this storyline, and believe me I am not a fan of the current state of events on that show even though I get what TIIC on AWZ are doing, even the character in the relationship with his female best friend realizes he's gay and his whole going back in to the closet of sorts is complicated cause it's not about his sexuality reality, it's a way of not having to deal with his feelings cause he's so emotionally immature. It's also clear that no one except his girlfriend is buying that he isn't gay. It's actually painful to watch it play out cause the gay teen and his girlfriend- especially the girlfriend- are just fooling themselves and no one else at this point.

But I get what you're saying cause I was super pissed when I first saw this storyline twist as I was wondering what the hell TIIC were doing by trying to re-write history in order to destroy their money couple by making one of the gay men straight and then I saw it was part of a larger story arc not really about that character's sexuality. I think the way TIIC are doing it is dumb but I get what they're trying to do in the name of drama and angst. That's not to say it isn't annoying or even questionable. Believe me, the majority of fans on the official board were quite pissed and it eventually took a writer for the show to come out with a message to assuage folks not to riot about the storyline twist. I have more faith in this soap doing the right thing by its gay pairing, so to speak, than TMFIC at ATWT.

As for the states, as we can all see they're already more or less neutering the one gay coupling on soaps. It's a terrible message, now made so much worse from the news that P & G banned ATWT's Van Hansis & Jake Silbermann from kissing at the GLAAD Awards a few days ago as well, being sent out that gay is bad or shameful. To go from having a normal-like relationship complete with physical affection between Noah & Luke portrayed to the current state of events between them is just awful. I can barely watch the show now and it angers me cause I remember when I would rush home from work eager to see Noah/Luke's storyline play out. Now I can barely watch when I know that they're on. It's a travesty what's been done to Noah/Luke and every time some tool from P & G comes out to say there's no kissing ban - when it's obvious there is - is just another middle finger being given to fans who want to see a more normal relationship (for a soap) between the boys play out.

I can't even get in to how much I despise the stupid addition of Ameera to the Noah/Luke storyline nor how irritated I am that the actress was also at the GLAAD Awards with VH & JS. Nothing against the actress at all but having her there came across as questionable at best and incredibly subversive at worst. It just wasn't kosher to me. YMMV.

Don't you mean halal?

I actually don't mind the concept of this Ameera storyline. It is a soap, after all, and there should be some sort of conflict to drive Luke & Noah apart and bring them back together later on. What I don't like is the idiotic way they are portraying her as a Muslim & a woman (a side topic, I know). I've been extremely frustrated with the so-called "kissing ban," not because I necessarily need to see them kiss, but because it's been so obvious that the ban exists. It just looks plain silly to have them fumble around every which way but kissing to show affection when all the other couples on the show don't have that restriction.

I've watched the Hollyoaks JP/Craig saga, and now the JP/Kieron story that is going on, and I have my issues there too. I get that it is important to show the pain of being closeted, but JP really needs an open relationship to balance it out. Dating a priest does not accomplish that at all.

As for Bianca, I also agree that the Lena relationship was a complete missed opportunity. Bisexuality is a complex issue to deal with in both the straight and gay community. Sometimes straight people see bisexuals as attention seekers, or just experimenting with same sex relationships. Gay people sometimes see them as traitors, or conformists. Addressing those nuances from both perspectives could create truly interesting stories on any soap.

Edited to remove un-FAQ friendly word.

Nope, I meant kosher as I was using a popular saying so I felt no need to change it regardless of the correct term.

And you shouldn't started your sentences with "Um". That is actually in the FAQs on how not to start a sentence.


From what I've seen, and I include myself in this group, the issue hasn't been the concept as much as the execution.

I'm not a fan of seeing a woman brought in to drive a wedge between two men in love but I think if the writing had been even a little bit better instead of the utter dross it is, then this storyline would probably be more tolerable. So far, the characters have been written to act like total morons. It is like no one is thinking and it's painful to watch. Everything comes off as contrived or nonsensical and the end result is a big old mess. It's like a trainwreck but the type that makes you turn away instead of focusing in fascinated horror. Just terrible.



You know things are bad when they show their shoes making out. Their shoes! That was so stupid.


I agree with everyone who had issues with Bianca's lovers on AMC. There were so many missed opportunities.

It just bugs me that it seems that Luke and Noah's storylines often seem so isolated from the main storylines. It just seems that they keep bringing on people who aren't really connected to the existing characters and for God's sake, Noah isn't even a permanent cast member yet.

I definitely think that the storyline would be more bearable (though probably still cheesy and kinda boring, but bearable) if there was kissing and if they were allowed to rant about the situation openly rather than being too understanding.

Sigh, I kinda wish that all those insular gay characters on the soaps could cross over and meet each other. Like, they use their own soap to get established characters, but then cross over to each other to just hang out or even hook up. How cool would it be if Bianca, Lucas (from GH) and Luke could have a drink together? Or Lucas could try to get between Luke and Noah? Or Luke stops by General Hospital to check out Port Charles. Of course, he isn't even on the same network as the other two :(

I have to ask, anybody following the gaydaytime blog, I'm a bit confused. I read the summary for the couple from the Spanish soap and it sounds quite racy (boy/boy/boy triangle with cheating and heartbreak), but I haven't been able to find a love scene. The Hollyoakes storylines also strike me as quite racy usually (I mean, priest?) but I hear they don't really do love scenes either? But I guess we'll know beginning of April when JP and Kieron are supposed to hook up.

I don't watch the Spanish soap you're referring to, El Cor De La Ciutat, but I do watch the others. Maybe someone who watches that show can help you out with details on that soap's male-male love scenes.

So far the most explicit male-male love scenes I've seen are on Alles Was Zahlt, where they've actually shown bare chested men making out or kissing for extended periods. Verbotene Liebe just did a male-male sex scene where afterwards the two men were in bed naked but the audience could only see their bare chests. All the kissing happened beforehand when they were fully clothed. With Hollyoaks, Channel 4 has a rule that all male-male love scenes require one male to have his shirt on at all times, which is why you will see JP/C sex scenes with one of them always in a shirt. I think of these 3 shows, Hollyoaks is the least racy with its male-male love scenes but they do show gay couples at least kissing or in afterglow moments which is a lot more than ATWT can state.

That is so weird! Is that an official rule? How are the straight love scenes on that show?



I admit I mostly grab the slider and skip through the scenes looking for something that sounds cute. Which is why I was surprised that there didn't seem to be much physical stuff and even only a few kisses.

I agree that does sound a bit weird. Considering all the other stuff they apparently show and imply you wouldn't think it would be a big deal for both of them to have their shirts off.

On the oldest of German soaps Lindenstraße they have an gay character, who has become a doctor, has had (among others) a relationship with a villain, married the love of his life when that became possible in Germany, adopted a kid, become addicted to pain killers … all the usual soapy fare … without becoming boring, but he's been nothing but gay since 1986. It can be done!

These soaps are aired in the daytime, so there a kids watching them. Therefore you can't show anything too explicit, but generally you can show more in Germany than in the UK and definitely more than in the US and the straight scenes show more than the gay ones (FI a heaving bosom in a bra). In Alles was zählt they once had a very funny striptease on ice where the straight character ended up with nothing more on than a jockstrap and his ice-hockey boots. If you're into inter-cultural research on the social relevance of sexual relationships, there it is. And this is as racy as a gay couple can be. And if they're lesbian, it would appear that anything goes. If you're a minor in the US this video's probably not for you. But in Germany this gets aired at 6.00 pm.

But right now I enjoy the more romantic story-line on Verbotene Liebe the most. For the Non-German speaking among us, I post a link to my translations on the board mentioned on page 1 of this thread.

For years I've been telling people learning German – apart from being able to read German poems – is waste of time. Who would have thought that soaps would change that? Nevertheless I still think US TV is far superior from German TV. I still haven't recovered from the shock I got when hearing Hiro speak perfect German in the dubbed version of Heroes.

AWZ is why I started brushing up on my German. That was a great scene, not just because the actors rocked it, but there are so many layers to it. Yea, it's hot on one level but it's more angsty than anything. There is so much anguish and confusion going on in that clip more than anything else.

I prefer AWZ over Verbotene Liebe even though it makes me want to tear my hair out at times with it's current R/D/V triangle mess. I do like VL, though, and IMO the actors are not as solid on VL but they're trying. Points for effort.

Anyhoo, isn't it interesting how videos with male-male love scenes are always flagged on youtube as age or content inappropriate? I've come across so many for gay love scenes but hardly any flags for straight or lesbian love scenes.

I'm not expert, but just from googling the characters, I got the impression that a lot of that is due to the fact that both performers are grown up, out gay men who probably have input in how their characters are written. Which is why I'm guessing that their story is probably superior in realism and balance than any of the cute boys making out and trying to be a supercouple stories and probably better balance both the mundane (domestic, loving long term partnership), but also in embracing the "swishier" parts of gay life (like drag costume parties) and still having the typical soap drama (drug addiction, broken heart, whatever else). Plus, from the descriptions of what the soap is like I get the impression that it probably lends itself more to having a more normal/stable gay couple because it's supposed to be a working or middle class kind of show compared to the others (who often have former aristocrats or big business owners as the main family). And also to have a stable gay family who is mostly about raising their kid without it seeming boring in context of the other storylines.



A person on a message board once claimed that one of the raciest male scenes was on Verbotene Liebe when the couple Tom and Ulli got a love scene on the New Year's Eve episode. The person didn't elaborate too much in detail or maybe I just didn't understand it but I got the impression that they were implying that oral sex was implied though I could be wrong. (note, both Brooke and Ridge and Luke and Laura (I think it was them; I'm pretty sure Luke was involved) I think were considered scandalous in a "Was that supposed to be what I think it was supposed to be?" kind of way when they had love scenes that implied oral sex. )



Maybe that had a lot to do with it. IMO 6.00 pm is barely what I would consider "daytime" (even though those shows are clearly soaps). Do they rerun during the day/in the early morning?

I thought it was interesting that once in a comment to a Christian and Oliver video a commenter claimed that Verbote Liebe has a bad track record with gay storylines. Which I thought rather shocking because people told me it was the home of that Tom and Ulli with the explicit love scene and that those two guys actually ended up together/were written off the show as a couple rather than either of them dying or ending up with a woman.

And the lesbian character Carla is apparently still around. From her bio at her site, it sounded like she had a bunch of romances, one with Hanna who eventually died of cancer in her arms (the one with the racy pool sex scene), a triangle with an Anke and Vanessa and then romance with a Susanne who according to the website she eventually married (? I couldn't find a clip of it) but who eventually left her for a guy.

Somebody also told me that Oliver too had a previous boyfriend on the show?

Judging from that I would assume that they actually would be among the ones with the better track records (and if their track record is bad, omg, who is the one with the GOOD track record?).

Mostly I'm just amazed how quickly German "straight" men are willing to drop their pants. Apparently there was a storyline similar to Oliver and Christian on a soap called Marienhof where a middle aged macho turkish man develops a crush on his younger gay friend. From what I can tell from the summaries like Oliver and Christian they graduated almost immediately from one kiss, to a bit of denial and attempted straightness to full on sex. The "straight" character eventually couldn't stand by the relationship and the younger guy left the show, but I think it's rather fascinating that those "doubting" straight guys would really jump as quickly into full on sex. Then again, maybe that is how men do it when they want to test out their sexuality, but as a woman I always found that to be a bit on the shocking side. Also interesting because afterelton.com just put up and article about gay characters in primetime and noted how "in the closet" stories where considered outdated and that tv shows aren't really interested in doing storylines on the plight of the closeted character anymore, something that seems to still be a hot topic on at least some German shows.



I'm more fascinated that the kind of people who think something like gay kissing should be flagged have nothing else to do but always be around and to flag those videos/always know where to look for them.

Nice to see you LolaRuns and Bonobochick.

I was wondering if anyone here watched Verbotene Liebe. Imagine my relief to see you two! :-0
As a man, I can tell you, that in my personal experience, it's not at all shocking to me that Chris and Oli have had some type of sex already. I'd be shocked if they hadn't. But seriously, I am enjoying this storyline immensely. It's not entirely orginal, but nothing on television is, IMHO. I would like to see little "romance" once Christian sorts himself out, and I'm optimistic this show will deliver.

I'm so glad that somebody has finally uploaded the infamous Tom and Ulli love scene from New Year's Eve 1999/2000 that I have heard so much about.

It also took place on Verbotene Liebe (in fact apparently Tom was the ex of Olli, pictures here), so maybe there is some chance of Chrisitian and Olli getting something a bit like that eventually.

I have to say though:
(1) Lol, for being THE gay sex god of Verbotene Liebe I keep getting distracted by Tom's huge ears and bad haircut
(2) Ulli looks extra twinkish

Gotta say though, in regards to Olli and Christian, I'm almost worried. I really want them to be together, but on the other hand I'm worried too that once they are together it will reduce the chance for love scenes. Unlike ATWT I don't expect them to stop kissing and nuzzling, but still. It's something that straight couples have to battle with too. You can have a big love scene when the couple gets together, you can maybe have some for some big events, but other than that a couple is more likely to get a love scene if (1) they are in the process of cheating on a thirs person (2) one of the couple is cheating with somebody else/thinking of somebody else (3) they are hiding for some reason and somebody walks in on them (4) they are fighting about something and making up.

I have to say, I really enjoyed watching the youtube playlist history of Christian and Olli. There were a lot of additional angles I didn't know about/notice previously, like Olli's bootycall Timo or just how long Christian has been struggling over how reacts to Olli (loved that scene where Olli walks in on Christian listening to some sort of gay teen hotline/advice center show on the radio and Christian naturally freaks and turns it off immediately).

Glad you like the playlist Lola, it's mine. :-0
It's quite intersting to see how Christian has reacted to Oli from last November until now. My favorite "old time" moment has to be , this:

Christian works out with Oli and pulls a muscle in his shoulder, Oli massages it. A few episodes later, Christian is talking with his then girlfriend, Coco, in the kitchen. Oli comes out of the bathroom, and Chris sees him coming and all of sudden , he winces and rubs his shoulder! And of course Oli jumps right in and starts massaging him again. I think Chris may have had some yearnings even months ago. :-)

Just to mention the lesbians again:

The often mentioned sensual scene in the hot tub, awkward dancing and picking up girls at a lebsian dance club, a lesbian wedding ceremony complete with rings, dresses, first dance together and cutting of the wedding cake, young love...

I also like that apparently they don't just do gay person falls for straight person. Carla's first relationships were like that but with Susanne apparently Susanne fell for Carla first and Carla's one night stand Marina is a full on lesbian who bitches at Carla because she thinks that Carla is an in the closet married women (when she sees Carla after their botched one night stand with her child).

On Hollyoaks yesterday they had fantasy sequences of various people kissing their heart's desire. The straight couples were actually kissing, but John Paul and Kieron were in some very poorly shot fake kissing or neck action. I'm so cynical what with Nuke that I almost wondered if they'd been told not to go far, but Kieron and John Paul have had a good kiss before.

If anyone's interested in lesbian romances on British soaps, girlsngear has clips from the lesbian relationships on Brookside and Family Affairs.

Do British soaps have the same thing going on with lesbian couples going further and kissing more than gay couples? Or is it about the same?

I always thought that that was very strange. In the general world lesbians are supposedly more acceptable because men find them cute and don't feel as threatened by them. But if the soap viewership is predominantly female, what motive would they have to like lesbians more than gay men?

Good Morning, everyone.



Montferrat - I noticed Christian planning that move as well. I loved it. Coco has this look on her face of (WTF), while watching her boyfriend enjoying their male roommate (whom she's also in love with) rubbing his shoulder. That was a great scene, which just built up the tension between those three characters. Now, that's drama.

Maybe it's because most women would have seen more lesbian kisses on TV than kisses between men so it's easier for viewers to get used to.

I can totally see that. I know a few women, including my mother, who have "issues" with seeing two men kiss but have no problems with women kissing (hell, my mom is a big fan of The L Word but she couldn't take QAF because all the men kissing wasn't something she felt comfortable with seeing) on tv shows. Also, notice the ease on so many American shows referencing how two women kissing or having sex is hot or sexy or they show male characters salivating over the prospect of "seeing two chicks go at it" versus how the idea of two men kissing - let alone having sex- is more generally written as being taboo, gross or the punchline of some "joke".




I still have a lot of older clips of Verbotene Liebe to watch, so I've not seen that yet. How interesting! It's always nice when writers put in little things like that early so when things come to a head, it's more satisfying.



*waves*

I have to admit I'm trying hard not to get my hopes up regarding Olli and Christian, looking at how Deniz/Roman, Luke/Noah and Lena/Bianca fared.

It seems to me that the best time for a couple is right before they are hooking up and then the storylines quickly die away.

However, there are some things that make me hopeful.

- The fact that Verbotene Liebe seems to have a slightly better track record with same sex storylines (judging by Tom and Carla respectively).
- They recently changed the banner on their main website to include Olli and Christian. I normally don't pay much heed to that kind of thing, but a whole bunch of people seemed to think it was significant, saying that it features them with the two other main (het) couples, as well as fans of Carla being upset at the change saying that the banner used to feature Carla and Susanne for the last two years and they had a major romantic storyline. They also said it was a bad sign that Carla's bio on the website was changed and now no longer mentions any future romances, just that Carla's main focus will be her daughter Sophie. They see that as a sign that Carla will be without romance probably for a long time.

Meanwhile Christian's bio was changed recently. It now says:

This is interesting because none of that has happened on screen yet. He isn't even in a real couple and his boxing career hasn't really been featured because they have been focusing on his entry exam to the sports university.

There's always a chance that the official website is plain wrong (I have noticed that on a lot of US shows the people who run the website aren't really connected to the show), but I still thought it was interesting.

Meanwhile Olli's bio says:

BTW, Verbotene Liebe cited Tom and Uli (as well as Hanna and Carla) as one of their Top 10 couples list which they compiled on the occasion of their 3000th episode.

(I have to admit that I'm amused how many of these supercouples appear to be ending in death; probably because German soaps apparently have a higher rotation with a lot of people leaving the shows after their contracts are up, I counted Hanna/Carla, Cecile/Leonard, Marie/Henning, Heino/Katie, Jan/Julia)

Lola - I recently came across some spoilers for the Christian/Oliver story and the writers will address the issue of Christian's boxing career, along with his new relationship with Oliver.

Oh, looking forward to that. I was just a bit confused. It seems to me that Christian works at a fitness trainer and now he is applying for sports university and he is a waiter at his brother's cafe.

I was a bit confused when and where this boxing career takes place. Then again, I mostly watch the youtube summaries, so maybe it has been featured in other scenes that just weren't included?

(I think boxing Christian is pretty hot, so I'm all for this storyline; can we have lots of Christian beating up evil homophobes? Maybe him kissing Oliver in public at one of his big victories? But I'm just dreaming along...)

I think that Christian took up the sport while he was in prison. Have you seen the clip of when Oliver kisses him while they were in the locker room after his training session?

Yes :) I think that is the main reason why I associate boxing Christian with hotness. I would like it if Christian's prison past came up again. It could make for some intresting material for the characters.

This is why my DeRo loving heart hasn't given up hope in that pairing, because AWZ's official site on RTL.de still has up a photo of Roman & Deniz right before their first time together. All other photos have changed but that one. It has stayed up. They're not done and several spoilers have indicated this as well. Unlike Noah/Luke which I've just about given up hope that PGP will do the right thing by that pairing, I have faith that DeRo will play out in a manner that in the end, they will be get together, I just don't see the two moving back to one another til some time in the summer at the earliest. Then again, I pleaded my case with this storyline back on page 2 of this thread. Hee.



dimples1 if these are new spoilers, please send them my way.

I think it's a big problem of US soaps that they always seems to change their shows for the summer months when all the school kids are home for their summer break. It was always terribly noticable on B&B where the two to three summer months was ALL Amber/Kimberly/Rick or the year after that Rick/Deacon/Amber or the year after that Amber/Rick/Mary or the year after that Thomas/Caitlin/Rick, but as soon as the summer months are over these characters are GONE and on the backburner. Some of these characters appear to have been created only for the summer months.

So, I think Noah and Luke are still pretty lucky in my eyes because at least they still have semi regular screentime.

I still have faith that they won't be able to "Lianca" Nuke. I think they will eventually do more stuff with them but with some bad luck it will be so far in the future, who knows if people will still care? (but maybe that is what they are after anyway)



I'm a bit suspicious of that because I have been burnt with stuff like that before on American shows. I just mentioned in regards to VL because a lot of people seemed to be thinking it might be significant.

Bonobochick - I found the spoilers from the website that Simone created for the couple. Spoilers up to May 9th (Episode 3157) are available.

Do you think we should create threads for Verbotene Liebe and AWZ?

I was thinking whether it would be worth it to created a compile thread for German soaps since there is one for Asian soaps, but I'm not sure if there would be enough interest.

OMG, I love the sound of those spoilers if Olivia walks in on Christian and Olli that probably means that we'll get to see them sleeping in the same bed together. And yay for Christian getting pissed at some guy taking digs at gays. .