» 5-1: "Sympathy for the Devil" 2009.09.10 Options

[claire30]

Becky, Becky, Becky. Embarassing and hilarious all at the same time. I missed the first couple seconds of her and I'm almost glad. I don't think I would have been able to handle it. Fanfiction does not need to come to tv. I didn't take offense at her, though; I thought it was just clever of the writers to come up with that storyline. It was them nicely poking fun at fandom. The other characters thought she was a little crazy, but no one seemed to think she was a freak. (So glad I'm not the only one who started thinking Galaxy Quest)

I agree! I have a feeling that there will be others elsewhere on the SPN interwebs fandom who will take offensive at that portrayal of fangirls, but I don't think it was meant to be offensive and I didn't take it that way.

Oh and, somewhere higher up on the thread I saw some questions about the origins of the changed voice mail message from last season's finale and whether or not that will ever be revealed. Hasn't Eric Kripke said that he wanted to leave that one hanging for a while? We may never find out. I think it was probably Zachariah who did it but ultimately I'm not sure it matters much anymore.

One more thought-even though the end of this ep was distressing, I am hopeful that we will see Sam and Dean back together again by the time this season ends. It won't matter who did what to who or who started it or who lied, or any of that. They're brothers and they love each other and they will get past this. I think the two of them together is really the only thing that can stop the apocalypse in the end.

This post has been edited by claire30: Sep 10, 2009 @ 10:33 pm.

[Giggling Kat]

Which leads me to a question; is Michael on board with what Zach is planning or is he some mindless automaton who will come down, take his vessel and do the job just because that's what he's supposed to do? If Michael's the leader of the heavenly host, can't he think for himself?

Good question Blackmantra. I wonder if Michael knows what is going on? If Dean consents, is then Michael forced to enter Dean? Is this a case where the angel is not in charge but the human? By that I mean, in most cases, the human gives consent, and the angel enters of its own free will. But what if that's not the case with Dean? What if once Dean says yes, Michael must enter? Maybe that's why Zach is so determined for Dean to give consent, and why Michael isn't in the picture. Michael is not playing, Dean is not playing and Zach is getting antsy.

I like that interpretation. That Michael is refusing to break the rules, which is why Zach is trying to force Dean to play by them.


I'm really liking Sam this ep. Especially on the second watch. He's not unaware of the magnitude of his actions - he's buried under it. He's going from wanting to just do what Dean says and not say anything to trying to provoke Dean. He's in that weird place where he WANTS Dean to just yell and get it out in the open. To give Sam something to react to and deal with. But there's nothing left. He's burned a bridge and he's desperate to find a way to rebuild or find a new way to connect to his brother again.

Especially in the warehouse scene watching Dean with Zach. Because it's the same choice he made with Ruby. "This is the only way to defeat Lilith" vs "This is the only way to defeat Lucifer". What's Sam going to say? He made the wrong choice and is in no position to tell Dean what to do. He's helpless and it breaks my heart.

But like others have been saying - so maybe the answer is that defeating Lucifer is the wrong thing to do. Maybe redeeming Lucifer or just re-imprisoning him is actually the better choice.


re: the GED
It throws me, cause if Sam and Dean were in the same high school, Dean would have been a senior. So was he just so over school after the girls humiliate him that he tells John he wants to drop out? 'cause I can seen John letting him get a GED instead. It would prove to John that Dean wanted to hunt and wasn't just slacking off his studies. I can also see that making John assume that Sam would also be eager to join the hunting world.

[omaroca]

I also think it's very interesting that Michael isn't there himself. Why isn't he doing what Lucifer did with Nick?

That's exactly what I said. The very fact that it's ZACH trying to force Dean to consent makes the whole thing very very fishy.

There's no reason Michael wouldn't be here talking to Dean himself, clearly if Lucifer can appear in dreams and visions to talk to someone, there is no reason Michael couldn't do that with Dean. I have a feeling maybe God isn't the only who "left the building" and Zach really doesn't know where Michael is or what he wants but will be able to blackmail him somehow if he has control of his "sword".

Or it may be like michelangelo says, if Dean consents Michael will HAVE to enter and right now neither of them want that, neither is doing what Zach wants. Neither of them are willing to play Zach's game.

It throws me, cause if Sam and Dean were in the same high school, Dean would have been a senior.

They weren't staying at that school though, they already knew that as soon as John got back(which he got back on that fateful day we saw in the flashback), they were leaving so they weren't going to be going back there anyway. But in any case, Dean was already past the usual graduation age, he was a little over a month away from his 19th birthday. I think taking the GED was pretty much a natural thing at that point, I'm surprised he didn't do it sooner.

This post has been edited by omaroca: Sep 10, 2009 @ 10:40 pm.

[Cieley]

What Dean is upset about, and what Sam didn't apologize for, was the rest of it. The lies, the betrayal, the lack of value he put on their relationship last year... all the ways he destroyed it, as if it hadn't mattered at all. It was the dearest thing Dean had, the only thing that he had to hold onto after Hell, and Sam dismantled it for sex and demon blood and a power trip. That's what he can't forgive right now, and that's why he can't trust.

I think those scenes weren't about avoidance... they were about Sam being sorry for something Dean wasn't angry about, and Dean being hurt about something Sam wasn't apologizing for.

This is a very good observation. It clarifies for me the contrast between how obviously hurt and upset Dean was, and the sincerity with which he told Sam that it was okay, he didn't need to apologize. It was because, as you say, Dean is hurt about something that Sam wasn't apologizing for. Maybe that last scene will help Sam to understand this.

[Mogollon]

How could I forget to mention how much I loved BadAssCas. Boy, you get blown up by an archangel and suddenly, you can fight! Maybe Sam could arrange to get blown up by an archangel, too? LOL (Yay for Dean rescuing Sam. Ticked at Sam or not, he's not letting any demon take his little brother out!)

That final scene was just kick ass. Jensen just nailed it. All of the hurt, the betrayal. The hurt resignation that no matter how much he wishes it otherwise or even Sam wishes it otherwise, what Sam did can't be erased, and how Dean feels about it can't just be swept under the rug like usual

That was really done well. Dean wasn't even angry at that point, just hurt and resigned. He'd tried to fall back into the old pattern, they way he always played peacekeeper in the family, they way he'd always sublimated his needs and wants to those of his father and brother. But not anymore. For the first time, we get a much healthier reaction: he's not going to hide how he feels to Sam or pretend to himself that he's OK with it. I'm glad to see the growth in Dean last year continuing.

Well if you listen to Zach, there's no idea why Dean would ever be chosen, since he's not too bright and not a good human or somesuch ;). But we all know Zach is full of himself, and an asshole of the highest order.

Zach does not think highly of humans in general; and in the specific, we've already seen he totally misreads Dean. Just the stuff he tried to offer Dean last year--he has no clue. As far as his plans are concerned, that could be a fatal mistake.

I loved seeing a Dean determined not to be misled or used. While he said his speech to Bobby was fake, I loved that he didn't seem beaten down by that. There was no giving up in his attitude. If he doesn't have a plan now, he'll keep fighting until he does.

Telling the truth doesn't mean you tell ALL of the truth. If something is omitted, that's not really lying, is it?

It can be. Leaving out key information can have the same effect as telling an outright lie. It can distort the truth, mislead and give someone the wrong impression about what is (or was). That's why the oath required before giving testimony is that the witness will tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

This was an interesting part - so Dean didn't finish high school, we don't know for what reason, but he made damn sure that Sam finished. Dean also got his GED, which leads me to believe it's not that he didn't WANT to finish, but hunting or some other reason had him not finish

.

I believe that getting a GED is finishing school, just not in a school setting. I agree that it shows that Dean, for all that we've gotten a dismissive surface attitude until now, really wanted to finish school; he just couldn't because of the burdens and responsibilities he'd gotten socked with.

Here's another thing that they didn't address- was the nurse whose blood Sam drank killed or was she still alive? If she was dead, you'd have expected Sam to confess to Dean. If she was alive, you'd expect Sam to go back and make sure she was OK.

That bothered me, too, because I thought that was one of the worse things Sam did last season, and I don't see anything in this current ep that shows that Sam has even thought about her, much less is guilty over it. I'm not sure that Sam initially thought past the seal being broken, which to me is the least thing he did wrong--because he didn't know (and I'm pretty sure that's why Kripke didn't have Dean yell "Lilith's the last seal; don't kill her" when he was pounding at the doors, to keep Sam redeemable on this issue). Dean's speech at the end at least raises other issues for Sam to think about.



Hasn't Eric Kripke said that he wanted to leave that one hanging for a while? We may never find out. I think it was probably Zachariah who did it but ultimately I'm not sure it matters much anymore.

I believe that on the commentary to 4.22, he says it was Zachariah. Why he said at CC he wasn't going to give us an answer is beyond me!

This post has been edited by Mogollon: Sep 10, 2009 @ 10:39 pm.

[MichaelFi]

It just occured to me- Lucifer claimed that he couldn't resurrect Nick's wife and kid. But YED had no problem resurrecting John and the Crossroads Demon had no problem resurrecting Sam. What ARE the limits to the demons' abilities to resurrect people who aren't in Hell? Probably the simplest answer is that John and Sam were recently dead and hadn't made it to Heaven yet, while Nick's wife and kid had been dead too long and were already in Heaven.

[michelangelo]

It just occured to me- Lucifer claimed that he couldn't resurrect Nick's wife and kid. But YED had no problem resurrecting John and the Crossroads Demon had no problem resurrecting Sam. What ARE the limits to the demons' abilities to resurrect people who aren't in Hell? Probably the simplest answer is that John and Sam were recently dead and hadn't made it to Heaven yet, while Nick's wife and kid had been dead too long and were already in Heaven.

Demons can only resurrect if deals are made. A soul for a soul. Lucifer really had no interest in resurrecting Nick's family, so he's going to tell Nick that he can't. Plus, what would the deal be? Nick's soul? That's not what Lucifer wants. He wants Nick's meatsuit. No deal there, no exchange and plus, no reason for Lucifer to bother.

[mustbekarma]

I agree! I have a feeling that there will be others elsewhere on the SPN interwebs fandom who will take offensive at that portrayal of fangirls, but I don't think it was meant to be offensive and I didn't take it that way.

To me, it seemed that Kripke was poking fun at the Wincest fangirls, not the Supernatural fandom in general. The joke in "Monster at the End of This Book" referred to fangirls who write Dean and Sam slash, and Dean didn't get what slash was at first.

Telling the truth doesn't mean you tell ALL of the truth. If something is omitted, that's not really lying, is it?

It can be. Leaving out key information can have the same effect as telling an outright lie. It can distort the truth, mislead and give someone the wrong impression about what is (or was). That's why the oath required before giving testimony is that the witness will tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

Like I said earlier, Lucifer is taking a line right out of Emily Dickinson. "Tell the truth, but tell it slant." Besides, I don't feel at all obligated that to believe that the Devil, known as the Prince of Lies, is always going to tell the truth. Maybe Lucifer can't technically tell a lie. Just because the effect is the same as an outright lie doesn't mean he actually told a lie.

I'm beginning to think, however, that angels don't need a completely informed consent from a host with no diminished capacity whatsoever. If the angels can fudge on that issue, I think Lucifer has plenty of wiggle worm for not being called on lies of omission.

Demons can only resurrect if deals are made. A soul for a soul. Lucifer really had no interest in resurrecting Nick's family, so he's going to tell Nick that he can't. Plus, what would the deal be? Nick's soul? That's not what Lucifer wants. He wants Nick's meatsuit. No deal there, no exchange and plus, no reason for Lucifer to bother.

That's a really good point. My hamsters are turning the wheels again, so bear with me. Demons can possess anyone, as long as there are no protective measures. The hosts don't even have to be alive, like Ruby taking over the coma victim who had just died. So, a soul being in attendance really isn't important. Angels apparently have more rules. The person has to be alive, obviously, to be able to give consent. The person has to be from special bloodlines, not just any live body will do. I bet the soul has to stay, too. Zachariah just couldn't kill Dean and let Michael take over, if Michael would even be willing to come out and play.

I'm afraid I have to point out a plot hole now. If it's so hard to find suitable hosts for angels to use as condoms, how are there ever going to be enough angels to fight the demons? Demons definitely are going to have the advantage of numbers by sheer ease of possession alone.

This post has been edited by mustbekarma: Sep 10, 2009 @ 10:53 pm.

[MichaelFi]

Demons can only resurrect if deals are made. A soul for a soul. Lucifer really had no interest in resurrecting Nick's family, so he's going to tell Nick that he can't. Plus, what would the deal be? Nick's soul? That's not what Lucifer wants. He wants Nick's meatsuit. No deal there, no exchange and plus, no reason for Lucifer to bother.

Mary's deal was "You get to feed demon blood to my kid", not for anyone's soul. I wonder, would "you get to possess me if you bring my wife and kid back" qualify as an exchange?

[tze]

Which leads me to a question; is Michael on board with what Zach is planning or is he some mindless automaton who will come down, take his vessel and do the job just because that's what he's supposed to do? If Michael's the leader of the heavenly host, can't he think for himself?

We can't assume that Zach's interpretation of 'what is written' is accurate. Lucifer found a way to communicate his 'intent' to Nick---if Zach's right, then why would Michael even need to rely on Zach as a go-between?

There are several ways for Dean to be Michael's Sword without technically making Dean a vessel:

1) The ever-popular (and my favorite) theory: Michael tore out his grace and dove to Earth, becoming the human we know as Dean Winchester. He chose to be born to two Hunters. He did this because he knew the only way to save humanity (and, in a way, his fellow angels---look at Dean's influence on Cas) was to lead by example and embrace humanity. If Michael imprisoned Lucifer, then presumably Michael set up the Seals; this is why Dean's time in Hell (and not John's) broke the first Seal.

Maybe the blood sigil spell only works for angels/ex-angels. Dean's love of food/sex/etc. definitely echoes the whole 'Anna fell for want of a chocolate and a cheeseburger' thing. He HATES flying--ironic if he once had wings. This show is very meta, and Dean would've been making fun of his own appearance tonight. His major role is that of 'big brother', and Michael would technically be the 'big brother' of all of Creation. Plus, if they go this route, they can avoid the whole 'it's not really 'Dean', but Michael who saves everyone' thing because Dean wouldn't be a vessel for Michael: he'd BE Michael, albeit with a few less memories. Personality-wise, Michael would be a person who feels responsible for all of Creation, who has severe daddy issues, and who is badass enough to take out the Devil; doesn't that fit Dean to a T?

2) Same as above, only John Winchester was Michael's human form. Think about it: we know stuff about Mary's side of the family but nothing about John's side. John was drawn to Mary, a Hunter. Demons feared him. His time in Hell didn't break the first Seal (possibly because he didn't qualify as a 'man'?) Like the angels, he could be quite the asshole. And if John was Michael incarnate, then Dean would certainly qualify as his father's weapon.

3) Dean's meant to smack Michael upside the head and convince him to take out Lucifer in a non-earth-decimating fashion.

The possibilities are endless.

I'll continue to stay happy as long as Zachariah lives for the entire season so he can get his ass kicked over and over again. I wonder what the opposite of a holy water swirlie would be?

I want Lucifer to kick his ass. Dean would probably cheer him on.

[Geo Gal]

Azazel was able to control reapers to an extent as we saw in the beginning of S2 (was he just that powerful?). I can see him a)wanting to back Mary into a corner and holding off the reaper so he could heal John and stuff him back into his body and b) holding off the reaper from Sam post Cold Oak (we never got any clue as to where Sam actually was after he died), wanting to force Dean to sell his soul. This was all part of a long con to get Dean to break the first seal and Sam to break the last.

And if Nick's wife and child are already safely ensconced in Heaven (or wherever reaped souls of good people go) Lucifer probably can't knock politely on the gates and ask for a couple of souls so that he can bribe a vessel.

[cables]

What ARE the limits to the demons' abilities to resurrect people who aren't in Hell? Probably the simplest answer is that John and Sam were recently dead and hadn't made it to Heaven yet, while Nick's wife and kid had been dead too long and were already in Heaven.

I'd agree. I'm guessing that demons have the ability to resurrect anyone in hell or whoever hasn't been taken by a reaper yet. People in heaven would probably be out of their jurisdiction. How they do so would also factor in to this, seeing as how even Azazel couldn't bring Dean back, he had to call in a favor somehow.
John: Can you bring Dean back? Yes or no?
Azazel: No. But I know someone who can. it's not a problem.

[bryandmanda]

Loved the episode and glad to have the show back.

We are unspoiled so we were surprised to see Nick/Lucifer/Jacob. He did such a great job in Lost delivering just 3 little words, "What about you?" However I hope this doesn't mean he won't be on Lost as well......

[JohnAdams]

I'm beginning to think, however, that angels don't need a completely informed consent from a host with no diminished capacity whatsoever

I agree. I think it's just straight-up permission that they need, which is why Zach figured he could get it through torture and threats. (I forgot to mention how awesome Zach was... he was absolutely delightful.)

That bothered me, too, because I thought that was one of the worse things Sam did last season, and I don't see anything in this current ep that shows that Sam has even thought about her, much less is guilty over it.

Sam felt very odd to me this episode... sort of a one-dimensional kicked puppy sort of thing. Maybe I just got used to him being fairly complex in season 4, but I wasn't expecting the sweetness and light act... THIS guy never would've done any of the things Sam did last year, or in any of the years before, for that matter.

I don't know if it IS an act on his part (the way he's used to getting swift forgiveness with puppy dog eyes or something) or whether we're going to start seeing his three-dimensional personality creeping in once the magnitude of being partially responsible for apocalypse wears off. But whatever it is, it doesn't feel quite right to me.

This post has been edited by JohnAdams: Sep 10, 2009 @ 11:02 pm.

[Kit Kat]

Except for My Time of Dying, I haven't been overly impressed with season openers. Mag 7 was terrible, and I found Lazarus Rising kind of boring. But I liked this episode. Action packed, set a lot of things up, and it made me laugh (which is unusual for Supernatural.)

It took 4 seasons, but I feel like I'm finally in Sam's head. Regret is something I get. Demon blood addiction I don't. I feel a bit bad that he's taking it so hard for killing Lilith, which is exactly what I would've done, but he did trust Ruby, which was epically stupid.

I like the devil. Of course he doesn't tell lies. Why would he? The truth hurts way more. And if comes down to Angels or Lucifer, hate to say it, sort of on Lucifer's side. Basically he questioned God, was sent to hell and frozen. Of course he's pissed.

I'm so glad Meg is back. Why don't they just rehire the original actress? Anna got her body back, why can't Meg?

The only thing I didn't like was Bobby possessed. That felt really contrived. From what we've seen the anti-possession tattoos work perfectly, yet Bobby doesn't have one. Bullshit.

The ever-popular (and my favorite) theory: Michael tore out his grace and dove to Earth, becoming the human we know as Dean Winchester.

I was terrified that's where they were going this episode (or Dean was actually the sword and become human or some bullshit) and was so happy that it didn't happen. This show badly needs Dean to be a flawed human, otherwise we might as well be watching Charmed.

This post has been edited by Kit Kat: Sep 10, 2009 @ 11:02 pm.