» Julie McNiven As Anna: Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel Options

[chickk]

She fell because she wanted to experience humanity (or, as people often say, "chocolate and sex") - is that really so horrible/selfish?

It's kind of funny, since she had far bigger chances to be born as a poor third-world person. Obviously she wanted to experience the western side of humanity...

You know they actually do have chocolate and sex in third world countries. And sometimes people are even happy. I'm just sayin'

BTW, I'm just off rewatching OTHOAP, and it reaffirmed both my enjoyment of the sibling-ish Anna/Cas dynamic and my view that Julie McNiven's acting is fine. I think she manages to hit the right notes for the role - she has the odd, formal, distant kind of speaking that other angels do, but seems more human than Cas, at least, because she does remember being human and miss it. And she conveyed Anna's resentment for Cas trying to kill her, her sympathy for his plight, and her seeming need to be cold so Cas can understand that he has to make his own decisions. If she doesn't have Misha's gravitas, I'll submit that for one, it's not so bad since Anna isn't supposed to be as angel-ish as Cas, and for two, he does have a few years of acting experience over her. For my money, McNiven wasn't half bad playing the big sister role considering Misha is six years older.

I agree. I didn't mind that Anna had a different quality to the other angels because she was a different kind of creature. I still thought she had a nice ethereal, otherworldly quality to her so she didn't feel like just another human. I would like to see her again too.

This post has been edited by chickk: May 18, 2009 @ 7:02 pm.

[ShantaD]

I would love to see Anna in a role like this, using her angelic position to help the humanity she loves and cares about so much.

Except I haven't seen any evidence of her great love of humanity. She fell because she wanted to experience emotions and physical pleasures. It's all about her, not humanity. She never mentions any great desire to help mankind as any reason for her fall. She apparently would miss sex and cake, not the chance to contribute to humanitarian efforts. She got over the death of her parents in about 10 minutes. She pops in and out, not to offer assistance, but to harp and criticize. She doesn't hold humanity in contempt the way Uriel and Zachariah do, but she's so smug and self-righteous all the time she seems to consider herself better than everyone, angels included. And I honestly think the role is totally beyond Julie NcNiven's abilities. I don't find her believable as an eons-old warrior of God and former commander of a garrison.

[TCL40]

And I honestly think the role is totally beyond Julie NcNiven's abilities. I don't find her believable as an eons-old warrior of God and former commander of a garrison.

You know I think this is a good point.

I totally bought her in the role of Anna the human who was hearing angels and everyone thought was going crazy. I thought her innocent appearance really worked well for the story at that point.

But after getting her grace back (which is a story line I hate-it is just lame that her grace was in a bottle around Uriel's neck) I think the character of Anna may very well have been to strong a woman that the actress couldn't pull off.

I almost wonder if they wouldn't have done better to have skipped the whole "I have some people who were able to give me my old body back" spiel, and just cast a stronger woman in the role-maybe one a little older who could pull off being battle worn well. It wouldn't have hurt the continuity of the show at all, and actually would have made more sense for the character, because the whole "I know people" defense of why she still looked like her human form just seemed contrived. But Anna finding a willing host and having a new body would have made sense and been less contrived.

[justsmile]

She apparently would miss sex and cake, not the chance to contribute to humanitarian efforts. She pops in and out, not to offer assistance, but to harp and criticize.

I took her claim about sex and chocolate as light hearted in face of what she was facing. I thought it was clear that she wanted to feel, the good, bad and horrible... as long as she felt like humans did. The way she fell was different from the way that Lucifer and the other angel's fell, even since she got her wings/grace back.

Also, each time she's popped in and out she's been trying to help Castiel/Dean/Sam in her own way, like their guarding angel [on the run]... which was very dangerous but she still did it to help them and thus stop the impending Apocalypse. As far as we've seen she isn't paired up with the demon's that were trying to kidnap her human form and torture her. She's also not on the side of the angel's... she seems to be on the side of the humans which is what Dean and Sam are each being pulled away from but in separate directions. That's another reason I like Anna, and hope she returns.

[silent]

I find it odd that the character is so often reduced to the sex and chocolate line, it was a light-hearted comment in view of Dean's rather bleak list of the human condition - and she mentioned loyalty, forgiveness and love before those two.

[Godmother]

I find it odd that the character is so often reduced to the sex and chocolate line, it was a light-hearted comment in view of Dean's rather bleak list of the human condition - and she mentioned loyalty, forgiveness and love before those two.

I completely agree. It irritates me that the character is so blatantly misquoted in this regard, because the actual quote (which I of course do not have at hand right now) is much more deep in meaning.

This post has been edited by Godmother: May 19, 2009 @ 4:34 am.

[Slingblade]

She got over the death of her parents in about 10 minutes.

I don't think that's true, I just think the show didn't allow much time for Anna's grieving because they had exactly one more episode to deal with her story - they couldn't give a bunch of big emotional scenes for a character that'll soon be gone (sure, she came back later but in a different capacity). Realistically, someone who just learned both of her parents are dead because of her would huddle in a corner and be a crying mess for hours, but they couldn't show that when they had a story to tell. Even Sam didn't get much screen time to mourn over Jess back in the day, and he's one of the two heroes, meaning he has plenty of screen time in every episode and they could have dedicated multiple scenes to him grieving. Considering the body count on this show, I honestly don't think Anna's the first PiP who lost loved ones and seemingly got over it ridiculously fast because the show couldn't dedicate screen time to a minor character's mourning. If and when Anna returns, though, I'd appreciate a mention of her parents, and how grief is another human emotion she has to live with now.

She pops in and out, not to offer assistance, but to harp and criticize.

This view confuses me, because Anna's criticism is a form of assistance - it's not like she berates people for the fun of it. She demanded to know why Cas would let Dean torture Alastair, because she thought the torture was wrong (and the subtext was that she still cared about Dean and didn't want him to have to do it, even if she couldn't tell Cas as much). Her encouragement of Cas disobeying didn't seem to me like "Let's be outcasts together!", she clearly thought the orders he was getting were wrong and wanted to see him stand up for his beliefs. She was a little too bitchy for my taste in The Rapture, but her point was still to inform Dean and Sam about what happened to Cas, and point out the importance of getting Jimmy back (the writers admittedly made her seem useless because Sam figured most of it out on his own). In Levee, she realized Cas was back to blind obedience against his own better judgment, so of course she tried to change his mind - again, she wasn't being judgmental for the heck of it, but seeing the danger of Sam being released from the panic room. And of course, whereas all these instances do fall under the category of criticism, her saving Cas' life from Uriel was certainly pure, unadulterated assistance.

Another thing: whenever Anna appeared in front of Cas, she was risking her life, since the angels - Cas himself included - still had orders to kill her. In the end, she paid the price for it. I sincerely doubt she'd take that risk if she wasn't really trying to make a difference and avert the apocalypse. For all we know, what she told Cas might have played a part in him eventually deciding to rebel and help Dean.

And I honestly think the role is totally beyond Julie NcNiven's abilities. I don't find her believable as an eons-old warrior of God and former commander of a garrison.

If that's exactly what Anna was atm, I'd be more inclined to agree. But I don't see it that way - Anna isn't an eons-old angel commander, period, she's an eons-old angel commander who became human and only reclaimed her grace and her memories of ever being an angel a few months ago. A good analogy for this would be if you led a certain life, had amnesia, started a new life with no idea that you were someone else previously, and then after years your old memories suddenly came back. You'd change, no doubt about that, but you wouldn't just go back to being the old person like nothing happened. These years in between did happen and they changed you. That's what happened to Anna, so it kind of makes sense to me that after getting her grace back, she became more angel-ish and otherworldly, but not the wholly formidable and authoritative angel she once was. Her experience as a human necessarily makes her different.

I totally bought her in the role of Anna the human who was hearing angels and everyone thought was going crazy. I thought her innocent appearance really worked well for the story at that point.

But after getting her grace back (which is a story line I hate-it is just lame that her grace was in a bottle around Uriel's neck) I think the character of Anna may very well have been to strong a woman that the actress couldn't pull off.

I partially agree. I also liked McNiven better when she was playing a crazy human - it's clear she was cast for that particular role. Heck, I just liked the character better that way. H&H was crap, there's no way around that. But I don't have a problem with how she plays the angelic version of Anna, either. Is she up to the acting standard of J2 and Misha, no, but like I said before, Anna is no longer the worn-down battle-scarred angel. Her time as a human softened her, if that wasn't the case I might have a big problem with McNiven's acting, but that's just how I see it.

I find it odd that the character is so often reduced to the sex and chocolate line, it was a light-hearted comment in view of Dean's rather bleak list of the human condition - and she mentioned loyalty, forgiveness and love before those two.

I completely agree. It irritates me that the character is so blatantly misquoted in this regard, because the actual quote (which I of course do not have at hand right now) is much more deep in meaning.

Total word. Anna was giving a humorous example of something much more serious - the values of humanity as opposed to being a cold, obedient angel who doesn't have free will or the right to show emotion - yet people keep taking her words out of context to make her seem hollow and hedonistic. I doubt angel Anna observed humans and went, "Wow, sex looks great and chocolate looks tasty, maybe I should fall." She wanted to become one of them because they're allowed to think for themselves and act on their emotions, rather than be God's blunt instruments, which is completely understandable.

Also, I really, really don't want to come off like Kripke and co. with their "the fangirls hate all the female characters on the show for no reason" rants, but I have to wonder, if Anna and Castiel's roles were reversed, if people wouldn't still hate Anna and love Cas. I'd imagine in that case, Anna would be perceived as this angel bitch who threatens to put Dean back in hell, chooses her orders over him and doesn't tell him everything about the seals, whereas Cas would be applauded as the tragic story of the beautiful angel who was so brave because he was willing to give up everything just to know what it's like to be human.

Sorry for the long post, you guys made a lot of points worth responding to.

This post has been edited by Slingblade: Jul 1, 2009 @ 2:59 pm.

[Starflower]

I find it odd that the character is so often reduced to the sex and chocolate line, it was a light-hearted comment in view of Dean's rather bleak list of the human condition - and she mentioned loyalty, forgiveness and love before those two.

But for me her mentions of loyalty, love and forgiveness have absolutely no meaning coming from her - who was perfectly happy to see others take the heat to save her sorry selfish arse. Dean displays these qualities, I've seen no evidence that Anna does. Also, at the time, I took her to be saying anything that would get Dean out of his trousers - so much for a higher purpose.

Anna is totally beside the point of the show in my opinion, nothing she does would convince me she is part of the 'family' and I dislike the amateur cloak-and-dagger stuff the writers are trying to come up with for her. There have been so many better female characters on this show that were one-offs. Kripke and co. seem to mess up when they are over-thinking roles for the tottie factor in my opinion.
Added to that, I don't think the actress works in the Angelic role - she was fine as the nutter in the asylum though.

ETA: I don't wonder about what would happen if Castiel and Anna's roles were reversed because I have faith in my appreciation of my own gender and my sense of discrimination when it comes to (in my opinion) poor writing and sub-par acting. Sometimes there are just different view-points, rather than a plot to keep 'girls' away from Sam and Dean I think.

This post has been edited by Starflower: May 19, 2009 @ 11:19 am.

[silent]

but I have to wonder, if Anna and Castiel's roles were reversed, if people wouldn't still hate Anna and love Cas. I'd imagine in that case, Anna would be perceived as this angel bitch who threatens to put Dean back in hell, chooses her orders over him and doesn't tell him everything about the seals, whereas Cas would be applauded as the tragic story of the beautiful angel who was so brave because he was willing to give up everything just to know what it's like to be human.

So much word! Thanks, because I've been thinking the same for quite a while now.

But for me her mentions of loyalty, love and forgiveness have absolutely no meaning coming from her - who was perfectly happy to see others take the heat to save her sorry selfish arse. Dean displays these qualities, I've seen no evidence that Anna does. Also, at the time, I took her to be saying anything that would get Dean out of his trousers - so much for a higher purpose.

Anna showed all those qualities, she offered Dean forgiveness - twice actually. As for sacrificing: she put herself forward when Uriel and Castiel arrived (granted thanks to the botchy writing we don't know if that was part of Sam's plan). And she knew that every time she showed herself to Castiel she was in danger. She was loyal to God when Castiel insisted to follow the torture order, she claimed that God would never order torture and she was right. She was loyal to Castiel, she told him exactly what he needed to hear in 'On the Head of a Pin' and saved his life and throughout she's been loyal to humanity even though it put her life in danger. Not sure what else she has to do in order to prove her worth (well apart from combing her hair of course).

So yes, all those things coming from her have meaning for me. And I've never seen that Dean needs philosophical bonding to get out of his trousers. They had chemistery from their first meeting onwards, which was later expanded when they talked about their daddy issues. I also find nothing wrong with the two of them having sex - since she wanted to experience all facets of humanity it made sense to me, especially since neither of them were sure if they would make it through the next day.

[omaroca]

But for me her mentions of loyalty, love and forgiveness have absolutely no meaning coming from her - who was perfectly happy to see others take the heat to save her sorry selfish arse. Dean displays these qualities, I've seen no evidence that Anna does. Also, at the time, I took her to be saying anything that would get Dean out of his trousers - so much for a higher purpose.

Word. She was so loyal she ditched all her fellow angels. She was more than willing to have everyone else risk themselves for her sake while she did....nothing. Yes they were willing to do it but if she'd really believed in any of those things she'd have taken herself off, offered herself up to Castiel and Uriel and accepted her punishment.

She didn't fall for a great principle, she fell because she wanted what she wanted, with no one's good in mind but her own.

She got what she wanted, she had 20+ years as a human. Actions have consequences, she should have been willing to deal with hers but she wasn't.

Anna showed all those qualities, she offered Dean forgiveness - twice actually. As for sacrificing: she put herself forward when Uriel and Castiel arrived (granted thanks to the botchy writing we don't know if that was part of Sam's plan).

She isn't anyone Dean knew prior to the day before. It was no skin off her nose offering forgiveness(particularly as the second time he'd only been in the position to be blackmailed because she hadn't done the right thing in the first place), and it didn't seem to help him any.

As I see it she put herself forward when Uriel and Castiel arrived because really what else was she going to do, start kicking and screaming--she was presenting herself as better than them, she had a very superior attitude(which given the fact that she left them and maybe if she hadn't, the garrison would have held together better instead being susceptible to the influence of the likes of Uriel, I can't see she has a good reason to be), so she wasn't going to do that.

She had already put everyone else in danger by that point. She should have given herself up as soon as she realized what was going on. Instead all she could think about was getting some "last night on earth" nookie.

Anna had already experienced that facet of humanity, as the dialogue stated, so it wasn't like "Oh I don't want to be a virgin when I die". As I see it it was more like, "Hey let me have sex with this guy who is already feeling awful, so that way, if they don't manage to save me, he can feel even more guilty but yay sex!". That Anna, always thinking about other people.... :D

She wanted to become one of them because they're allowed to think for themselves and act on their emotions, rather than be God's blunt instruments, which is completely understandable.

Until it became dangerous for her and then suddenly she was all looking for that angel grace. If she loved being human and humanity so much I think she should have been willing to die as one but she took her grace back to save herself. Dean and Sam would not have been in danger if Anna wasn't with them - Anna was the target, not them, so she wasn't looking for her grace to save them, it was for herself.

This post has been edited by omaroca: May 19, 2009 @ 3:03 pm.

[silent]

Word. She was so loyal she ditched all her fellow angels.

Loyalty is a human quality, angels are obedient. Her sin was disobedience, and since she was alone on her watchpost I can't see how she ditched anyone. She also couldn't keep up the morale in the garrison from where she was. Blaming her for Uriel & Co seems a bit excessive. I just hope she's not also responsible for Zach's little meltdown.

She wanted to know what it's like to be human, that's not a great principle (which was what led to Lucifer's fall) but I can't see it as a horrible crime worth of the death penalty. If that's how heavenly justice works (especially considering what other angels get away with) then I don't blame her for falling in the first place and I certainly don't blame her for not handing herself over to her executioners. Sam and Dean seemed to agree and were willing to take the risk involved in protecting her and getting her grace back.

Her knowledge about Dean went deeper than the time the two of them had spent together as she had been tuned into angel radio for a while. Not sure why her forgiveness didn't help him much, it led to him trying to deal with what had happened to him. Or are we now blaming Anna for Sam's failure to react appropriately to Dean's confession? And if she had not offered him forgiveness for the betrayal, I'm sure she would be blamed for being a cold fish.

So she did not cower before Uriel and Castiel - good for her. She showed no remorse, maybe because she was willing to accept the consequences of her actions? And had she asked for mercy I'm sure she would be accused of being an unprincipled whimp.

The dialoge states nothing about Anna's sexual experiences, she just mentioned sex along with chocolate as one of the positive things about being human. Since she was a minister's daughter there's a good argument to be made that she still was a virgin and talked from hearsay only. Either way doesn't matter to me, she and Dean wanted to have some good times in the Impala before getting killed/sent back to hell. Dean himself said that she stole his best line, so I fail to see the big manipulation here. Dean's a grown up man who can make his own choices. As for being traumatized and feeling guilty - that applies to both characters in that situation.

She's not the best written character on this show and she's certainly not perfect, which makes her an intriguing character. And she becomes even more intrguing for creating such vastly differing opinions - so I hope they keep her.

[TCL40]

I don't think the actress could have pulled the Cas character off. Misha has pulled it off well. I think Wisdom, if his and Misha's roles were reversed could have pulled it off. But i just don't think she could have done it. Personally, I would rather see an actress along the lines of the girls who plays Ziva on NCIS for the female angel part. When I think of angels, I do picture warriors, not innocent and almost naive.

I will also admit to some degree that maybe my Christian beliefs about angels come into play. I was always taught and pretty much agree at this point that angels were all male-or at least neuter male. I think in my head, when I think angel, I think of a man not a woman. McNiven's angel Anna just doesn't seem powerful or strong. I want a woman who is tough as nails for an angel. Nikki Aycox could have pulled off a good angel I think-but she has already been a demon so probably not going to happen.

[starsforus]

I liked the idea of Anna, but like Ruby I felt JMN was seriousely miscast. I felt nothing for Anna and feel no chemistry between her and Jensen or her and Misha for that matter.

Layla to me came off more believably "angelic" then Anna ever did and JB pulled it off far better and had the chemistry with Jensen.

I liked the concept of a fallin angel who is hunted by other angels and Dean feeling compelled to protect, while he himself feels drawn to the aspects of Anna that allow him to be forgiven.

I just feel the writing and the casting for Anna, really ruined a potentially interesting character and every time she appears, she feels even more shoehorned and useless then before.

[Slingblade]

Word. She was so loyal she ditched all her fellow angels.

Loyalty is a human quality, angels are obedient. Her sin was disobedience, and since she was alone on her watchpost I can't see how she ditched anyone. She also couldn't keep up the morale in the garrison from where she was. Blaming her for Uriel & Co seems a bit excessive. I just hope she's not also responsible for Zach's little meltdown.

Exactly. I have to say that citing Anna's fall as the reason there were traitors in the garrison some twenty years later seems very out of left field to me.

She was more than willing to have everyone else risk themselves for her sake while she did....nothing. Yes they were willing to do it but if she'd really believed in any of those things she'd have taken herself off, offered herself up to Castiel and Uriel and accepted her punishment.

So I guess we can establish two things about Anna: 1, she didn't want to die, and 2, she didn't object when Dean and Sam risked their lives to protect her. My question is, how do these things make her any different than, oh, every single PiP we've seen on this show? I honestly mean no disrespect towards the opposing viewpoint, but the fact that Anna's willingness to let the Winchesters put their lives on the line for her is considered selfish, while they've been doing exactly that for dozens of other civilians over the past four years, strikes me as double standards. Dean and Sam risk their lives trying to protect others, that's their thing, and we've never considered any of the people who received their protection seflish.

Now, I understand where you might find Anna a lot more responsible for her predicament than the average PiP - she was the one who chose to fall, after all. I suppose that comes down to whether one perceives Anna's falling as wrong/selfish or not, and we'll have to agree to disagree. We should consider this, though: we don't know if, when Anna made the decision to fall, she even knew she would be able to hear angels as a human and/or become a target. It may not have been an informed decision, one we can point at and say "she knew what the risk was". After all, Cas and Uriel didn't come after her to exact punishment for her falling (which implies that even Heaven, while clearly frowning upon the act, doesn't consider it punishable by death); they only did so when Anna became dangerous, because the demons were going to capture her and use her to get inside information.

She had already put everyone else in danger by that point. She should have given herself up as soon as she realized what was going on. Instead all she could think about was getting some "last night on earth" nookie.

Anna had already experienced that facet of humanity, as the dialogue stated, so it wasn't like "Oh I don't want to be a virgin when I die". As I see it it was more like, "Hey let me have sex with this guy who is already feeling awful, so that way, if they don't manage to save me, he can feel even more guilty but yay sex!". That Anna, always thinking about other people.... :D

The dialoge states nothing about Anna's sexual experiences, she just mentioned sex along with chocolate as one of the positive things about being human. Since she was a minister's daughter there's a good argument to be made that she still was a virgin and talked from hearsay only. Either way doesn't matter to me, she and Dean wanted to have some good times in the Impala before getting killed/sent back to hell. Dean himself said that she stole his best line, so I fail to see the big manipulation here. Dean's a grown up man who can make his own choices. As for being traumatized and feeling guilty - that applies to both characters in that situation.

Again, I agree with silent. We must be viewing the same scene through different lenses because I honestly saw nothing to suggest that Anna was using or emotionally manipulating Dean (since I mentioned double standards already, why isn't anyone saying that Dean was using Anna? Other than he's Dean and she's Anna, I really don't see how the parts they played here were so different). The virginity thing makes no difference to me; if she was a virgin it doesn't make it better, if she wasn't it doesn't make it worse. It was what it was - they thought it might be their last night on earth, they were attracted to each other, they'd bonded a little, and in the heat of the moment they had sex. I don't know why we have to go around saying either character was taking advantage of the other.

BTW, I do feel that the sex scene itself was lame and unnecessary, much like the Sam/Ruby sex the episode before. The connection between the characters seemed too unnatural, like the writers just decided these two needed to have sex, so they should have a few bonding moments and then jump in the sack (or the back seat in this case). I just don't see how it casts Anna's character in a bad light.

She isn't anyone Dean knew prior to the day before. It was no skin off her nose offering forgiveness(particularly as the second time he'd only been in the position to be blackmailed because she hadn't done the right thing in the first place), and it didn't seem to help him any.

It's true that Anna wasn't in a real position to offer forgiveness, per se, since she wasn't someone Dean had wronged - she wasn't a soul he'd tortured in Hell. But I took the forgiveness comment to mean that Anna understood why Dean did what he had, and encouraged him to forgive himself and let go of the guilt he'd been harboring. When someone had done something awful (whether it actually was or they perceive it as such), they need to hear that, and the people who are close to Dean - Sam and Bobby - hadn't known about his actions in Hell at the time, so they couldn't help in that regard. I doubt it was a coincidence that Dean told Sam about Hell in the end of this episode; Anna's words had made him at least a little less ashamed of what he'd done, and he was able to tell Sam about it (after previously refusing Sam's request to do so). That was an important step on the road to recovery. God knows Dean went through enough bad shit in the second half of S4 as it is, but it would have been even worse if he'd bottled up the truth about Hell, too guilt-ridden to tell Sam.

I don't think the actress could have pulled the Cas character off.

Oh, me neither - while I personally have no problem with McNiven, I've already stated that she's not up to Misha's standard, and thus a female version of Cas played by her clearly wouldn't have been as effective. However, I made the point about reversing Castiel and Anna's roles not in regards to the actors, but in regards to how people perceive the characters - it seems to me that for whatever reason, the female characters are held to higher standards than the male ones. I feel that a male angel in Anna's shoes - especially one as good-looking as Cas - would garner plenty of sympathy, whereas a female angel playing Cas' role would be deeply criticized. It's not even the love interest thing, it just seems to be a general thing where female characters have a lot more to prove before they're considered acceptable. Or you might say that the writers just always write the female characters poorly - MV and all.

[TCL40]

However, I made the point about reversing Castiel and Anna's roles not in regards to the actors, but in regards to how people perceive the characters - it seems to me that for whatever reason, the female characters are held to higher standards than the male ones. I feel that a male angel in Anna's shoes - especially one as good-looking as Cas - would garner plenty of sympathy, whereas a female angel playing Cas' role would be deeply criticized.

I would have been okay with a totally kick ass female angel in the Castiel role. But I would want her to be tough-somebody you could actually picture leading a garrison of other angels. I don't think McNiven gives off that vibe.

I do think you are right that this combo wouldn't be well received by some, but it wouldn't bother me.

I don't mind female characters-I just want them to be developed and have a purpose, and I really don't see Anna's character having much of a purpose that couldn't be served by some other character once you get past Heaven and Hell.