» 4-6: "The Doctor's Daughter" 2008.06.06 Options

[joshleejosh]

I kept calling Martha's buddy "Chewbacca."

[EPThompson]

I love every level of what Genny's presence did with the Doctor. The combination of eager-to-please and self-confident was great. And given what we now know, it's no wonder he didn't want to ID her as his literal child, but the gradual acceptance was charming.

Of course, now I'm wondering what the hell will happen with her down the road. Torchwood? Sarah Jane? Surely there can't be ANOTHER spinoff...

The Sarah Jane Adventures, if anything, I'd think. She's too much of a blank slate for her own show, really, and the general childlike naivete and lack of real world experience would make an interesting supplement in that vein. Sort of a physically older, specialized version of Luke, and it could be interesting seeing her play off against him as the older 'created in a day' venue.

[TWoP Bayliss]

I think it was a multipart story, but about Martha.

TSS: "Martha is a soldier" references dominate.
TPS: Martha is referred to as the Doctor's daughter, trying on his clothes.
TDD: The Doctor's Daughter Genny is a soldier.

At the end of the story, they both regenerate, leaving war/UNIT behind, free to save the world and universe in new ways.

I'd love to see more of Genny, but even moreso I'd like to see what Martha does next. And not just because her fiance is a hottie.

[D291173]

But obviously that's a part of it.

I don't think the other Hath was called Grant. I'm fairly sure he was named after another Matinee Idol, but I don't have my copy of the podcast to check what his name was.

Also, those "people on the podcast" were the Director, star and Show runner, so I think at least one of them trumps the writer. But yes, they were having a good old fanwank about the General and Peck's death. You've got to love any show where the Exec Producer is willing to publically fanwank over his own show.

This post has been edited by D291173: May 12, 2008 @ 1:04 am.

[Ella Ollivander]

The sweetest part of this week's Confidential: DT comments that we know that "as soon as he begins to open his hearts to her, we know she's going to get shot in one of hers." So adorkable.

So, I was wandering around the BBC's site for this episode and it's kind of odd. The production team apparently decided to spell her name Jenny, even though since Donna derives it from "genetic anomaly," it makes more sense to spell it Genny. Curious.

Bayliss, I think you're right about there being a relationship between Martha-as-soldier and the Doctor's daughter-as-soldier -- otherwise it seems odd for them to be so heavy handed with the anti-violence theme for three episodes running. However, I think I would characterize it as a juxtaposition or a parallel or perhaps a progression from one to the other, linked by Martha's lovely off-hand comment near the end of TPS. I don't see enough focus on her for the three-episode story to be about Martha, per se, though I think she is an integral part of the themes they are weaving together.

Speaking of Dr. Jones, when did she learn about Time Lord regeneration? 'Cause if she can say that there's no sign of regeneration, then she must know what the signs are... She wasn't quite in a position to watch the Master regenerate... perhaps she got the Doctor to explain it while they were hanging around Cardiff with Jack at the end of TLotTL. Or perhaps it came out following the gorgeous Gallifrey speech in Gridlock (you know, when the Doctor kept talking as the camera panned up to the horizon to watch the cars buzzing around the skyscrapers). Or perhaps she picked it up at UNIT -- didn't Three regenerate into Four on UNIT premises?

[cutecouple]

Or perhaps she picked it up at UNIT -- didn't Three regenerate into Four on UNIT premises?

Correct.

[fengshoe]

The Sarah Jane Adventures, if anything, I'd think. She's too much of a blank slate for her own show, really, and the general childlike naivete and lack of real world experience would make an interesting supplement in that vein.

I haven't seen The Sarah Jane Adventures so I can't comment on how well she'd fit in, but I do agree on her being too much a blank state for her own spin-off. With Sarah Jane you have all that Who history to send her off on her own, Jack also got built up over several episodes. Jenny, inspite of her adult form and soldier knowledge, is very much a child at her core, she was after all not even a full day old. She was wide-eyed, naive and impressionable and was very much at one point the little girl who wanted to please her dad. She needs more layers to be able to hold her own on a spin-off centered around her. Which is why I'd prefer to see her come back as a companion with the Doctor, I think it's with him she'd get those added layers she needs as a character and grow up as well. I think she has a lot of potential as a character to explore so I'd really love to see her again period in any capacity. I'd also love to see her back during Tennant's tenure because I thought Georgia Moffett and David played off of eachother extremely well. I really enjoyed the side she brought out of the Doctor, and we'd get to see more of that if she joined him.

[Odac]

EPThompson

Of course, now I'm wondering what the hell will happen with her down the road. Torchwood? Sarah Jane? Surely there can't be ANOTHER spinoff...

The Sarah Jane Adventures, if anything, I'd think. She's too much of a blank slate for her own show, really, and the general childlike naivete and lack of real world experience would make an interesting supplement in that vein. Sort of a physically older, specialized version of Luke, and it could be interesting seeing her play off against him as the older 'created in a day' venue.

The problem with her joining the Sarah Jane Adventures is the whole part about her being somehow injected with the knowledge & instincts to be a solider from the very moment of her "birth". Guided by the Doctor's example, she showed a remarkable ability to overcome her "programing" in this ep, but those skills & abilities are still there, they'd no doubt come in handy in any sort of adventure she gets into, yet that aspect would probably have to be severely downplayed on SJA since it just wouldn't fit on a full-on children's show. Also, if that Luke character is still on the show (I haven't caught any of them past the first couple of episodes) the "blank slate learning about the world" aspect of her character would be sort of redundant.

TWoP Bayliss
I think it was a multipart story, but about Martha.

TSS: "Martha is a soldier" references dominate.
TPS: Martha is referred to as the Doctor's daughter, trying on his clothes.
TDD: The Doctor's Daughter Genny is a soldier.

At the end of the story, they both regenerate, leaving war/UNIT behind, free to save the world and universe in new ways.

Wait, Martha left UNIT? How'd I miss that?

I think these stories really are all about the Doctor and his own "issues" with militarism and people choosing to take on the role of solider, with of course the unstated (at least until this episode) reason behind his severe reaction being his own feelings of guilt over what happened when he himself took on the role of solider (apparently Time Lord self-righteousness is based on projection).

And along with this, there also seems to be something of an undercurrent theme of "family" all through this season, specifically the Doctor losing & regaining family. All season long he's found himself correcting the impression that Donna is his wife (or sister), Martha finds herself making an allusion to him as a "father", in the Pompeii episode already heavy with unstated comparisons to the Doctor's terrible choice in the Time War Donna convinces him to save "just one family", Of course this week the Doctor gained and lost a new daughter, but almost more significantly the experience inspires him to openly talk, apparently for the first time in the show's long history, about his own family, now as lost as that Pompeii family would have been had Donna not talked him into saving them. (and btw, he seems to imply that his true family all died in the Time War, which if true would mean he pretty much just walked out on them way back when One first jacked a TARDIS & started gallivanting around the Universe). I suspect we're building to the idea of the Doctor's companions all being a surrogate family to him, especially with what promises to be a full blown reunion coming down the pike (and it would be great if the BBC actually managed to keep something totally under wraps for once and in a true surprise move Sarah Jane Smith managed to put in a cameo appearance as well to represent the Old-School Who companions).

Ella Ollivander
Speaking of Dr. Jones, when did she learn about Time Lord regeneration? 'Cause if she can say that there's no sign of regeneration, then she must know what the signs are... She wasn't quite in a position to watch the Master regenerate... perhaps she got the Doctor to explain it while they were hanging around Cardiff with Jack at the end of TLotTL. Or perhaps it came out following the gorgeous Gallifrey speech in Gridlock (you know, when the Doctor kept talking as the camera panned up to the horizon to watch the cars buzzing around the skyscrapers). Or perhaps she picked it up at UNIT -- didn't Three regenerate into Four on UNIT premises?

He couldn't have mentioned it at the end of Gridlock, because later on in "42" he tries (and manifestly fails) to warn her that it might happen when he thinks he might die from the sun beings burning up his insides (or whatever the hell that was supposed to be). I'd think that if nothing else, he'd have to have at some point filled her in During Sound Of Drums to explain how the Master changed from Claudius to Harold Saxon. In any event I'm glad Donna was around to at the very least overhear something about the possibility of a Time Lord somehow coming back from the dead, as I always thought it was a severe lack of foresight on The Doctor's part not to give either Rose or Martha any sort of "heads up" on the process until it was too late and he couldn't really get his point across because he was busy dying (or at least believing he was dying).

(edited to reflect that it was actually Donna, not Martha, who was with him in Pompeii)

This post has been edited by Odac: May 12, 2008 @ 7:29 am.

[The Melissa]

he seems to imply that his true family all died in the Time War, which if true would mean he pretty much just walked out on them way back when One first jacked a TARDIS & started gallivanting around the Universe

Except Susan. That still leaves the question of Susan. If his child/her parents was still alive, why did he take her with him when he went into hiding on that backwater planet called Earth?

I've mentioned my fanwank that he kidnapped Susan to spare her from gazing into the Schism. If so, or if for any other reason he had custody of Susan against her parents' wishes, then he'd have to avoid all contact with them and with any of her aunts/uncles who didn't sympathize (which I assume was all of them). He not only had to avoid the Time Lords in general, he couldn't even sneak a secret message to his immediate family.

He probably meant to contact them some day, just as he meant to go back for Susan. And then he got busy saving the Universe. And then one day, poof, it was too late.

[Ella Ollivander]

Odac: He couldn't have mentioned it at the end of Gridlock, because later on in "42" he tries (and manifestly fails) to warn her that it might happen when he thinks he might die from the sun beings burning up his insides (or whatever the hell that was supposed to be).

Oh, good point. 42 isn't one of the episodes I go back and re-watch on its own; thanks for reminding me of that scene. :)

[Nuallain]

I've mentioned my fanwank that he kidnapped Susan to spare her from gazing into the Schism. If so, or if for any other reason he had custody of Susan against her parents' wishes, then he'd have to avoid all contact with them and with any of her aunts/uncles who didn't sympathize (which I assume was all of them). He not only had to avoid the Time Lords in general, he couldn't even sneak a secret message to his immediate family.

I know One actor William Hartnell's theory was that his character's son was actually evil and he'd taken Susan away to protect her from his influence.

[Radagast]

Speaking of Dr. Jones, when did she learn about Time Lord regeneration?

Definitely in the Utopia/SoD timeframe. He certainly tells Jack in Utopia, as he doesn't look like Nine anymore; Martha may have picked up a bit there. By some way into SoD, she's quite familiar with it, it seems.

[The Melissa]

I know One actor William Hartnell's theory was that his character's son was actually evil and he'd taken Susan away to protect her from his influence.

Heh, like One was so overflowing with compassion? :-)

There's a difference between that and actually evil, of course. But if the Doctor's son was evil, why would the Doctor have had to hide from the Time Lords in general? They weren't big on actively doing good, but neither was One when we first met him.

If e.g. the War Chief had a child, I would have thought the Time Lords would be okay with someone else protecting the child from his influence.

[JosetteDupres]

Well, Martha is a doctor and is curious and in 42 The Doctor did tell her he was about to regenerate. I just assumed that after all the action stopped Martha asked him what the hell he was babbling about. Then when he made the simple statement about how Timelords regenerate, she asked for details, so if it happened she would recognize it.

[Radagast]

There's a difference between that and actually evil, of course. But if the Doctor's son was evil, why would the Doctor have had to hide from the Time Lords in general? They weren't big on actively doing good, but neither was One when we first met him.

If e.g. the War Chief had a child, I would have thought the Time Lords would be okay with someone else protecting the child from his influence.

I get the sense that this hypothetical son was 'evil' in a more subtle sense, that is, he fit in within Timelord society and there was no evidence or cause for recourse against him within the system. Thus, he simply took Susan away from that system entirely.

Of course, this is spec on a non-canon comment by Billy back in the '60s, so large grain of NaCl needed...