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» 6-21: "Made In America" 2007.06.10 (recap)
Just Tuned In 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
"My God" may be the final words in the script but in the movie Chase was referring to they are not.

Youtube clip of the last scene in Planet of the Apes

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cmw6Jne0tAQ

ETA:

The way the ending of POTA was actually filmed, I don't think anyone else in the movie theater had the slightest confusion over the "huge twist ending". Therefore, the only thing I can glean from his quote is that when he was in graduate film school, Chase was an idiot. If the primary over-arching theme of the The Sopranos is that no one changes, well. . .

Totally agree with this.

This post has been edited by dkmc: Jul 23, 2007 @ 3:19 pm.
Stalker 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
Therefore, the only thing I can glean from his quote is that when he was in graduate film school, Chase was an idiot. If the primary over-arching theme of the The Sopranos is that no one changes, well. . .

But, as richie246 said, isn't he really talking about viewers like this 23-year-old Chase? Maybe he thought the safest way to say to viewers "you're not getting the obvious" is by saying, "You know, this one time, I was so dense I didn't get the obvious"? I assume the last thing he wants to do at this point is appear even more pretentious and disdainful of his audience. Of course, it's possible all this was said in a joking manner at the awards show and doesn't really mean anything more than he was making a joke at his own expense - I assume a lot of his intention is in his delivery. Maybe video of it will turn up...

This post has been edited by ejluther: Jul 23, 2007 @ 3:20 pm.
Couch Potato 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
Thank you, dkmc, for tracking down the clip. I found it difficult to believe my memories of the final scene were as far off as tedling12's post suggested, especially considering how many times I've watched the darn movie. It would not surprise me if the extra expositional dialogue was added by the director specifically to make the ending crystal clear to all those 23 year-old graduate film students in the audience who weren't the sharpest tools in the box.

And I understand that Chase is trying to draw a parallel here. He may or may not be describing his literal reaction to his viewing of POTA back in 1968. But truth or not, he seems to be saying that back when he watched the ending of POTA for the first time, he was dense, just like all the viewers debating the ending of Made in America are dense. At this point, Chase really should simply keep his mouth shut about it. Anything he says now just makes him seem more insulting and patronizing toward his audience. And again, with the evidence now available on youtube for anyone to see, it's pretty clear that the cut to black at the end of the Sopranos is just sliiiiightly more obtuse than the ending of POTA. He picked a pretty bad example. The ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey would have been a much better choice to make a point. Sci Fi fans are still debating 40 years later what the !@#$% the ending of that movie meant.

For the record, I'm in the life goes on camp. It never occurred to me that Tony was killed (although the foreshadowing of such a possibility throughout the scene was more than obvious) but I completely understand the posters here who are convinced of that and defend the viewpoint vehemently. I just haven't been convinced of that. I am much more satisfied with the ending where he continues to be a thug without a conscience, his family have all climbed on board the Mafia-train, he could be whacked any minute of any day, even while popping onion rings in the ice cream shop, and the empire will fall one way or another as the feds are poised to strike. The ending is very open to interpretation and I believe that was intentional, as is Chase trying to fuel the fires and keep the debate on the ending lively by insisting that the ending is obvious and that anyone who doesn't get it is as dense as he was when he watched POTA. I thank Mr. Chase profusely for creating an incredible television series and for all the years it lasted, but unless he plans to make actual clarifying remarks about the ending of the series (and I actually would prefer he does not), he should just shut up about it.

This post has been edited by SD Dude: Jul 23, 2007 @ 8:44 pm.
Just Tuned In 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 9:26 pm
You're welcome SD Dude. I really like POTA as well. The final scene is a classic. Wish I felt the same way about the final scene of the Sopranos. FWIW in my opinion it didn't measure up to to the rest of the series.


Edited for spelling.

This post has been edited by dkmc: Jul 23, 2007 @ 9:28 pm.
Channel Surfer 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 9:51 pm
Hey Guys i just signed up here yesterday to comment on Entourage, but i decided Id like to talk about the last episode of The Sapranos as well.

what i want to talk about is something Ive never seen anyone mention and here it is.

When Tony walks into the Diner at the end, he looks up across the place and the camera quickly cuts in a manner that is usually used to show the audience what the character just looked at. And what do we see? Tony sitting at a table. IMO Tony saw this as well, the whole scene of him at the table, his wife and kids showing up, the oninon rings, was all in his head, it was his "life" or what should have been and what he wanted to be the next hour or so of his life flashing befor his eyes.

Then the cut to black is this fantasy ending with death.

Mabey what Tony really saw when came into the diner was the barrel of a gun, there for his life flashed, the trigger was pulled and we cut to black.
Couch Potato 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 10:38 pm
what i want to talk about is something Ive never seen anyone mention and here it is.


Welcome goddfella. I will suppress the enormous urge to engage in viscious sarcasm merely to state that if you perused the 225 pages that precedes us, you will see that what you noticed was mentioned many, many, many times by various.

I think the consensus is not that Tony sees himself sitting in the diner but that the scene abruptly shifts from his entrance to him seated in a booth--the walk from the door to the booth has been truncated. At least, that's what I believe.

I also think your interpretation (which has also been championed by some) is perfectly reasonable and interesting. I just don't buy it myself.

I think the ending is very much open to a variety of interpretations, just like the multiple meanings of so many things in the Sopranos over the years. That's why Chase doing his, "it's all there and the ending is obvious to anyone who paid attention," song and dance is a load of disingenuous BS to me.
Channel Surfer 

Jul 23, 2007 @ 11:36 pm
ok so besides some where in the past 250 pages, I never heard that perticular edit/cut commented on. lol

anyway, i to would assume that they just cut to him sitting at the table. but the way it is edited..the look up, to the very quick cut of him sittting down suggests nothing other than thats what he is seeing imo, at least if youre going to use the past 100 years of filmmaking and editing as a basis. lol

of course it could just have been a poor/odd editing choice.

befor the last episode i thought it would just end without any real resolution, just like it was any other episopde, and thats still what id belive without a doubt if it wasnt for that one cut.

This post has been edited by Goddfella: Jul 23, 2007 @ 11:37 pm.
Stalker 

Jul 24, 2007 @ 7:01 am
Go here to hear the show's cinematographer talk about the series in general and that cut in particular - he draws a parallel between it and the film 2001:

http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynamic/nxtbk_pre.php

He says it's the fourth (IIRC) instance in the episode where Tony seems to "see" himself - cutting from Tony looking towards something directly to Tony already present there.

This post has been edited by ejluther: Jul 24, 2007 @ 8:56 am.
Loyal Viewer 

Jul 24, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
This quote from Chase, from the article link that was posted last page, sounds like sarcasm to me-- doesn't it sound as if he's saying, duh, stupid viewers, Tony is dead, why don't you get it?

Instead of addressing the crowd, Chase turned to me and asked, "You're from New Jersey, right?"

"Yessss?" I said, not sure where he was going with this.

"Would you tell everybody," he asked, "that is is possible -- in fact, very likely -- to be sitting in a restaurant in New Jersey and everything just stops?"
Couch Potato 

Jul 24, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
To tell the truth, I find posters' explanations very compelling regarding the cut to black as indicating Tony's death. As a cinematic device, it would certainly be an appropriate way to signify death, and that ending would provide the definitive ending and closure that so many viewers would love to see. However, presently, I remain firmly unconvinced that that is what it means.

There are basically two reasons for this. First, there are far too many scenes, plots, and arcs that have occurred over the course of this series without any definitive closure to assume that Chase would end the entire series in such an obvious way. He has demonstrated time and again that it is simply not his creative style with this series. Because I have come to expect with the Sopranos that there are no simple explanations for anything in these characters' lives, I really prefer the more open-ended finale where this family all continue with their self-delusional pathetic lives, as opposed to "Tony gets whacked. The end."

Second, I would find Tony's assassination in the final scene to be dissatisfying as uncharacteristically poor storytelling. There is no motive. I've seen speculation on this board such as, "MOG is Phil's relative," or "MOG is Eugene's relative," etc. But such speculation is just that, fan fiction without any confirmation. As far as I'm concerned, MOG is a shifty-looking guy who needed to pee. Clearly, we are led to believe that either MOG or some of the other patrons may be up to no good and the tension in the scene is masterfully created and heightened; but there is actually no evidence that any of the patrons are any more than what they appear to be, nor that any of the patrons have the intent to kill Tony. There is no reason for there to be a hit out on Tony by the time of the final scene. As far as someone acting out of rage or personal vengeance, certainly Tony has made many enemies, but we, the viewers, are not made aware of any still above ground who are planning such an action. If Tony were killed in the end, I could certainly see Chase signifying the event in an unusual way such as a cut to black, but I think we the viewers would have some back story as to who is gunning for him this time and why. That is why I'm much more inclined to think that the final scene does an excellent job at demonstrating that during even the most mundane events in the lives of the Soprano family, such as having a meal out at the local diner, Tony's choices have left his and his family's futures always in peril, from both legal and illegal threats, but I don't think that the cut to black means this is the moment where it ends for Tony. Rather, this is the moment where it ends for us.

ETA:

"Would you tell everybody," he asked, "that is is possible -- in fact, very likely -- to be sitting in a restaurant in New Jersey and everything just stops?"


ITA, ArubaForLife, that Chase is attempting sarcastic humor with that remark, but I don't agree that he is clearly alluding to actual death. Would Chase really suggest that violence is so prevalent in New Jersey that it is very likely to be shot to death in a NJ restaurant? In fact, what he didn't say, "that it's possible, in fact, very likely, to be sitting in a restaurant in New Jersey and die," is more telling to me than what he did say. I kind of take his comment as poking fun at New Jersey as in sitting in a restaurant in NJ is a sort of living death. It's the kind of joke pretentious New Yorkers or others who think of themselves as too sophisticated for Jersey would make. Harmless, but pretentious. And I could interpret it as him saying that the Soprano family continues their self-delusional morally bankrupt lives. It's also possible that I am too dense myself to see the obvious :)

This post has been edited by SD Dude: Jul 24, 2007 @ 12:56 pm.
Couch Potato 

Jul 24, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
I'm still pissed off by how this show ended. To me it was nothing more than David Chase not having the balls to end it definitively and leaving the door open for a money-grab down the road.

And every time I hear "Don't Stop Believin'" on the radio it annoys me and I have to change the station.

This post has been edited by LadySadie: Jul 24, 2007 @ 1:36 pm.
Loyal Viewer 

Jul 25, 2007 @ 8:35 am
OK, I actually HAVE read all 226 pages of this post, and I don't think I've seen any previous comment on this: When the song "Don't Stop Believin'" reaches the lyric "She's just a small-town girl," the camera pans across Carm. I attach no deep significance to this whatever, it just struck me as an interesting commentary on Carm's life.
Fanatic 

Jul 25, 2007 @ 9:26 am
kstrick9, thanks for scanning that article. I found it a very good read!


When I was going to Stanford University graduate film school, 23 years old, I went and saw 'Planet of the Apes' with my wife. When the movie was over I said, 'Wow, so they had a Statue of Liberty, too.' So that's what you're up against."


David Chase reminds me a bit of Tim Burton in that way.

When he filmed Edward Scissorhands, he was told that some people asked where and how Edward got the blocks of ice he was carving up into the tower in the final scene. Mr. Burton replied that "those people should go watch 3 Men and a Baby."

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