» 3-22: "Through The Looking Glass" 2007.05.23 (recap) Options

[missmez]

Also, could someone with closed captioning please put us out of our neither/either misery?

The closed captioning said "neither," but if you think about it, "either" could only apply to one person: Claire.

Dun dun DUN!

[evil jesus]

Or Juliet, since her name begins with "J" and she could've taken a married name. It would suck for Jack if all of his romantic interests were taken.

[alessia]

I did it! I got through all 70 pages!

I really liked this episode. I thought it was a nice mix of the character-based exchanges I love ("Since when do you call me Kate?" "If you say anything about live together die alone I'm going to punch you in the face, Jack"), action (Could Hurley rock any harder taking those Others out with that bus? And Sayid...fierce), and some new mysteries. I never liked Charlie much but he'd grown on me recently. His death was really well done. Glad he went out a hero...when he crossed himself I nearly lost it.

I was spoiled and I initially hated the flash forward idea, especially knowing it was going to be so bleak but I'm kind of warming to it now, especially if there is an opportunity for time travel and "fixing" things. I really don't think LOST is going to end with Jack and Kate at the airport, there has to be more. All the time travel theories make my head hurt but it seems fairly obvious that Jack can't return to the island whenever he chooses that's why he keeps hoping a plane he is on will crash (also explains the map obsession).

My first reaction when I saw the casket was Locke but his name doesn't fit the newspaper clipping. It seems likely the name is Jeremy Bentham but I wonder if this is someone we haven't met (and if so I wonder why he's so significant that his death would make Jack want to kill himself) or someone using an alias. I also had the idea that it was Sawyer, just because the flash forward seemed to be the worst kind of future possible and Sawyer dead is about as bad as it could get for me. I would rather that Sawyer was the man Kate had to go home to but for some reason that seems like too much of a happy ending for their current situation. If by some miracle Christian was alive I think it would be totally cool if Kate married him. Way to fuck Jack up for life.

I also considered the possibility it was Juliet in the casket (and the newspaper listed her maiden name) or Ben but, really, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

So, has anyone mentioned the possibility that the lady who got in a car wreck while Jack stood on the bridge could have been Juliet's sister?

I hadn't thought about it but I love this theory. If by chance it was Juliet in the coffin it would also explain why no family was at her funeral.

I am gonna go with the theory that the Jack flashes are Desomonds visions. Since Charlie is dead (?) I think his visions have to be transferred to someone else, being Jack. Maybe Des is seeing Jack's demise, if they get rescued.

That would be pretty cool and a good way to ensure the future gets changed. I mean, if Des comes back and tells everyone the boat's not Penny's and terrible things are going to happen if they get rescued he'll be a lot more belivable than Ben.

My question is does Ben know about Desmond?

I think Charlie was the one that originally picked/programmed those numbers. Sort of in a "Vanilla Sky'ish" way. Those numbers were his secret code to return to his previous reality.

Like I said time travel things make my head hurt but that would be totally cool if they could work it out.

I'm definitely thinking next Season (and maybe S5 too) will be FlashForwards, but I think the last season will take 100 percent in the present. So S4 and S5 are the buildup to the rescue, with FF's, with S6 being Jack & Kate back on the Island and some sort of resolution.

I was thinking along the same lines but I hope there are a few more flashbacks as well. I want to know more about the island, its original inhabitants, the four-toe statue, etc. Also, I think it would be useful to get a Rosseau flashback and weren't we promised more Libby as well?

My biggest question is still how/why Penny was transmitting to the Looking Glass station. I know it's been asked before, but how in the world did she connect there?

No idea. Has she been waiting around her office for years waiting to get a connection? Or just since the dudes in the arctic saw the blip on their screen?

Man, I hope Des never gets tired of Penny, he'll never be able to shake this woman. Obsessed is too meek an adjective for this girl.

LMFAO! True dat.

WORD! Rose. New favorite character. Every line is gold. ... I'd like to see Sawyer try to give HER a nickname.

LOL!!!

Either way, Widmore has the resources for a plane crash cover-up; he could easily have gotten Kate a new identity on the premise that she never tell anyone about her time on the island

Good point and it would certainly explain why Kate's not in jail. As someone mentioned it seems they made some kind of deal to get off the island (keeping everything a secret perhaps?) Maybe that's what Jack meant about being tired of lying? Maybe in the process a lot of the Losties died and/or were left behind and that's where Jack's immense guilt comes from.

Something definitely happened considering that two people apparently tied to the island (Jack and the casket person) killed themselves/tried to in the space of a couple of days.

[Dysturbed]

Okay, I've got to get this out of my system as we've got 8 months to go. Here's some stuff I rethought about:

-Jack says to Kate: I'm sick of lying. Could they get rescued by the Hanso Foundation and have to made a "deal" with them that none of them were on Flight 815 and because the crash was staged back home, as Naomi said. They just seemingly fall back into reality without any notice. But notice that the doctor says "You were a hero two times over"...could this be a clue that maybe Jack and Kate (and whoever else) went against the "bad guys" and beat them and showed the world they were indeed survivors and revealed the big cover-up? Something tells me a majority of next season is the conflict between Losties and "Bad Guys."

-How is Kate seemingly back apart of society even though she was a threat before the 2004 crash? Kate said: I have to go, he's wondering where I am...is this Sawyer? Is this her Parole officer? Is this...someone else?

-No one questions Jack whatsoever during the flashback about his father being alive/dead.

-Three theories on the coffin: It's Ben's funeral. He eventually helps the Losties get back home and was telling the truth about the 'good guys' vs. 'bad guys'. Good guys being the Hostiles and the bad guys being the Hanso Foundation/Dhrama/Whidmore/whoever else. He's been on the island the majority of his whole life so not one person would go to his funeral. Jack went because Ben was apart of the island he's so desperate to get back too.

It's Michael's funeral. Apparently, people have made out the transcript of the article and have said that the guy was from New York, committed suicide, had a teenage son. Could Michael have gotten home and sent for help bringing the "bad guys"? Could Michael have changed his name to avoid the pressures of what happened to him while on the island, which eventually may have caused for him to hang himself? He murdered Ana and Libby, betrayed Jack/Kate/Hurley and Sawyer for the Others to save his son. That kind of guilt could lead him to take his own life, regardless of whether the Losties were rescued later with his help. Kate would also have a reason not to want to go to the funeral, whereas I can see Jack still going and feeling torn up about what happened, and because they had a relationship apart of the island for a majority of the time spent on it.

There's also a possibility this was a character we haven't even met yet.

-Is the Temple the place for the Others to hide on the Island? Is this where Locke is going with Albert and the hostiles? Mikalhi thought that the two women in the Looking Glass were on "Assignment in Canada?" Ethan Rom connection? Could be recruiting new members? The Others were building a runway...could they be looking for a new way to go back and forth between the Island and the Outside World other than the sub?



I don't think the flash forwards we saw last night were in 2010, now thinking about it. I don't think that they were the "end of the series" either. Here's what I've come up with:

Season 4 is entire flashbacks. Continue telling the story of what happens on the island as they get "rescued" (this will be in real time to the viewer, but knowing in the back of our head we already saw the future it's a flashback...and I don't think this is as simple as just going on a ship and going home...there's definitely a story that's going on here), what happens when they get home in (in real time at the end of the season, but still considered to be flashbacks because of the Kate/Jack scene we saw), who's still on the island in real time but those are flashbacks as well...there's still plenty of pre-crash/pre-rescue flashbacks that need to be told such as the rest of Ben's, Desmond's, Danielle's/Alex, Juliet's, Dr. Alpert and the Hostiles, possibly interacting with Libby's story, Walt/Michael (if they return) and new characters that we'll end up meeting that need to be developed.

Season 4 is honestly a total mystery right now but I'm guessing it's the story of how they get rescued and ultimately getting "home" at the end of it. Season 5 is off island (mostly...assuming everyone leaves, but that's unlikely) and dealing with the reality of being home (instead of flashbacks, just have a focus on each character for every episode with the key storyline being the dissention between Jack and Kate), and the eventual main story being someone "huge" dies and Jack turns into shit. I think we may end Season 5 with the same ending and the same exact moment of Season 3, and Season 6 is the journey back to the island to end the show in real time with no more flashbacks and reveal all the secrets and questions we've had. I think this is the first and only "flash forward" we'll ever get, and you can put the time period of the scene happening last night in 2009 with going back to the island happening in real time in 2010.

There's going to be some time lapse issues...but I'm guessing we cover the rest of 2004, 2005, and 2006 in Season 4. We cover 2007, 2008, 2009 in Season 5. Season 6 is day by day, 2010, just like our original time on the island. That may or may not make sense, but it really depends on whether to not they feel they need to have the show end in real 2010 time. This may not be the case because if you have a sense of the tone this scene was with Jack and Kate...it definitely doesn't seem like it's been 5 years since the crash, much more like one or two. They haven't talked to each other or seen each other in a long time, and clearly she told Jack something in the past (what he said to her on the phone in his apartment) that caused them to stop communication with both of them. Even hearing Jack's wife talk about how she's still the emergency contact makes me think Jack's been around less than a year. This can bring up the theory that what we saw wasn't a flash forward, but what we saw was May 2007 in real time. But that would make things even more confusing going into the last three seasons.

I shouldn't just say Season 4 is a mystery right now, the whole show is...that's how amazing LOST is. Everyone, including myself watching Season 1 back in 2004-2005, figured once we found out whether or not they got off the island, that would be it. We now know Jack and Kate DO get off the island and life goes on...but we now have more questions then ever before, and more of a story to tell then ever before...AND knowing that there's still a story to be told now they are off the island with the possibility of them wanting to GO BACK TO IT.

Has your head exploded yet? In one, five minute scene...the entire show has changed, dramatically.

But I think it's going to work.

This post has been edited by Dysturbed: May 25, 2007 @ 1:49 am.

[sodapoppp]

Something just occured to me, it's just one small question that I don't know will ever be answered that clearly.

BOONE. That radio reception he picked up on the destroyed plane-- there was a distinct voice, wasn't there? It said something creepy and Naomi-like, along the lines of "Hello, there were no survivors of Flight 815". Was that not actually a radiowave thing, and a different sort of signal that wouldn't be blocked by Danielle's message? (Did Boone die for nothing? D:)

LE SIGH, now I am thinking about dead Boone on top of dead Charlie! (man that looks weird typed out on my screen) GOTS TO THINK ABOUT SOMETHING HAPPIER.

[Dysturbed]

BOONE. That radio reception he picked up on the destroyed plane-- there was a distinct voice, wasn't there? It said something creepy and Naomi-like, along the lines of "Hello, there were no survivors of Flight 815".

It was Bernard in the episode that featured the tail section in season 2 they had found a radio and when Boone sent out a signal that he was a survivor of flight 815 Bernard responded by saying that were the survivers of flight 815 then Ana Lucia stopped him from saying anything else thinking it was a trick from the Others.

[lanter]

Absolutely incredible episode, I can’t believe they went all China Beach halfway through the series. I haven’t been this surprised by any television show since the season 1 finale. I loved every part and I even got choked up by Charlie’s death which shocked me since I spent the past two seasons hating him.

Since they tried to get Harold Perrineau back for this episode I too think that it was supposed to be Michael in the coffin.

My favorite parts:
Sawyer shooting Tom
The Rousseau/Alex reunion
Hurley kicking ass with his bus
Jack’s flashbacks (or flash forwards) actually being interesting
Ben getting beat on by Jack and Rousseau
Charlie finally getting to be a real hero
Sayid’s badass neck snapping and face spitting
Kate and Jack not ending up together….Sweet

Carlton's comment about who the losties will become basically spoiled the flash forward for me... and for a lot of folks I think.

Not me, of course when Kate got out of the car my first thought was “Kate and Jack knew each other pre-island?”

Kate was not going home to a baby given her choice of words. Sawyer, perhaps, and maybe there is a baby as well. But 'he' would not be a reference to a child IMO.

Agreed. When she said “he” my immediate reaction was that it must be someone Jack knows otherwise she would have said husband, or fiancé or boyfriend etc…. Besides I would be shocked if she didn’t end up with either Jack or Sawyer. Hopefully Sawyer.

ETA: I'm finally a "Loyal Viewer" and in the same forum as my first posting :)

This post has been edited by lanter: May 25, 2007 @ 3:05 am.

[keram]

Personally, I think the dude/dudette-in-the-coffin is someone we have not met yet. Jack has not shown any emotional attachment to anyone on the island (other than Kate or Juliet,) and I have a tough time believing that he would be so broken up over any of the Losties' death. He hates Ben and probably Michael, is indifferent to Sawyer/Jin/Sun, sees Sayid as an ally in battle, puts up with Hurley/Charlie/Desmond/Claire/etc. etc, wants to kick the shit out of Locke and sees the remaining cast members as fellow unfortunates. Unless something drastically changes in the next 48 shows, I just can't see any reason he would want to pull a Peter Pan by launching himself off a bridge.

This is the most likeable I have seen Charlie.

I was completely on Sawyer's side when he drilled Tom. I mean, what are they going to do? Build a prison? Try to rehabilitate him? At that moment in time, Sawyer realized that one less Other in the world is a good thing.

I look forward to next season to see how Locke's story plays out. I think that he and Jack are not done.

Excellent ending to Season 3.

This post has been edited by keram: May 25, 2007 @ 3:24 am.

[Phee]

Charlie's death was almost poetic, in addition to heroic. For a previously self-centered, self-indulgent ex-junkie, he cleaned up beautifully. Not only did he offer himself up as a sacrificial lamb (imo, for Claire and Aaron's sakes), but also snarked his way through being tortured,; kept his wits about him under physical duress; musically decoded the code from the brief info PsychoticBonnie gasped out; made contact with Penny and discovered information crucial to the Losties; saved Desmond's life by locking the door once the water started pouring in; and in his last moments of life---thinking of others, small "o"---wrote down that important information with his Magic Sharpie for Desmond to see. A hero's death on a grand scale. When he crossed himself, my heart melted......

Beautifully written and I completely agree. I'm still sad that he's dead, but at least he got written out in a rather wonderful way.

Now that I think about it, there are certain parallels between Charlie's tied to the chair scene and OriginalRecipeSawyer's scene. Both were tied up. Sawyer figured he was already dead and in hell, and Charlie was resigned to the fact he was gonna die, so both were shooting their mouths off without any cause for concern that their words might piss someone off and result in them getting hurt rather bad. At least Charlie was good natured about it all instead of just being an asshole though.

Also, all the maps in Jack's apartment (is he living at the airport? I didn't understand that either) confused me. [snip] The fact that he seems to be looking for the island again indicates that its location has been kept secret for some reason, even from Jack. Methinks the rescue operation definitely wasn't the joyous occasion the Losties expected it to be.

He's not living at the airport, he's just so damn obsessed with finding the Island that his little apartment is carpeted with maps. You do bring up an excellent point when you question why Jack doesn't already know where it is. That would seem to indicate that whoever rescues them knew that the Island was special and wanted to keep it hidden, even from the people who had already been there.

My biggest question is still how/why Penny was transmitting to the Looking Glass station. I know it's been asked before, but how in the world did she connect there?

I don't think she was transmitting to The Looking Glass. I think that perhaps she's been firing off random signals in that general area since her goons picked up on a signal at the end of S2, and once Charlie shut off whatever was interfering with the transmissions, Penny's signal caught on and came through by pure chance. When she got Charlie she probably thought, "Bugger, it's not Des", and then Charlie started rabbiting on about Desmond and she would have realised that she had hit the jackpot afterall.

I think the black neighborhood was just some misdirection. The producers know that fans will be debating this question, among others, for months.

I can just see them, sitting there, reading all of our outlandish theories, laughing manically at how they've made all of our brains hurt. *shakes fist at TPTB* Damn you! Damn you all to Craphole Island!

Does anyone have a screen shot of what Jack saw when he was looking downward from the bridge? It went by really fast, but looked like some sort of graffiti or designs, or else my mind was playing tricks on me since no one has commented on this yet.

screencap

My biggest problem with the dead guy being someone like Michael, Ben, or Locke, is that I can't accept that any of those people's deaths would prompt Jack to want to kill himself. Sure, he might want to show up at the showing, but kill himself?

So then the biggest mystery is the difference between Kate's reaction and Jack's. He wanted to kill himself, she was completely cold about it.

This is why when I theorised that if it's Michael that perhaps Jack's guilt has something to do with Walt actually being trapped on the Island, and Jack feeling guilt because he didn't know and left without saving the kid, which could have contributed to Michael's depression, which could have led to his suicide. In that instance, Jack could have been asking for Michael's forgiveness when he was about to jump.

IMO it also makes perfect sense that Kate, or anyone else, wouldn't want to pay their respects to Michael, seeing as how he kinda betrayed them all.

7. At the funeral home, Jacks eyes glanced to the right of the coffin as he was standing there and recognized the object. When the camera pans wider, it shows a diary-like book on top of the table to the left part. Couldn't have been the Bible. Could it have been someone's diary? Not necessarily Ben's, but someone else's?

screencap

Speaking of diary-ish books, here's a transcript from Ben's.

In the final moments between Charlie and Desmond (after Charlie holds out his hand with the message "Not Penny's Boat"), what does Desmond say/mouth to Charlie?

Just went for a re-watch, (and dammit, now I'm all sad about Charlie again) and Desmond mouths the words, "Not Penny's Boat" when Charlie puts his hand on the window, as though he's asking for clarification that that's what the message is. He moves his lips a few more times, but never actually forms any words. It's kinda like he's trying to think of what to say, and a few times he almost says something, but never actually gets any words out.

I think Jacob may be Jack who came back to the island but 'between' time strands and is now stuck and needs help. This is why Locke 'knows' he shouldn't contact the boat.

Ooooo, me likey that theory.

It's Michael's funeral. Apparently, people have made out the transcript of the article and have said that the guy was from New York, committed suicide, had a teenage son. Could Michael have gotten home and sent for help bringing the "bad guys"?

I haven't been able to make out anything about a teenage son from staring at the screencaps of the crumpled piece of paper, but if that is in there, then that'd most definitely fit with it being Michael, (though it would also indicate that Walt is still alive and well in the real world, which doesn't really jive with the rest of my own wacky theory.....the more I think about it, the more sure I am that it's Michael in that coffin, even the bit about how they tried to get Harold back but couldn't could lend credence to the theory....and if you wanna get really obscure, perhaps Jack almost getting hit by a car was a nod to Michael having been hit by a car back in the day....I'm gonna be kinda bummed if it turns out to be anyone but Michael in that coffin).

I do love the idea that the "bad guys", ie: Naomi's crew, could have been sent by a well meaning Michael.

[nailzthehnic]

I know "the numbers" didn't play as big a part in S3 as they did in the other two, but something bugged me when I first watched this episode. After a rewatch, I figured out what it was. When Charlie was talking to Penny, he referred to himself as a survivor of Oceanic flight "eight one five" instead of "eight fifteen" as it has been referred to in the past. Does this mean they've given up on the numbers?

[naepTV]

Here's a thought regarding the "who's in the coffin" vs. newspaper clipping.

Man found _____ downtown loft

The body of J______ __antham of
New York was ______ shortly after 4
a.m. in the ______ block of Grand
Avenue.
_____________________ man at The
Tower ____________________ loud
noises_______________victim's loft.
________________________________
___________(un/dis)covered the______
____ the ______ a beam in the ________.
(rest unreadable)

We know from the clipping that it was a man found dead in the loft (possibly hung himself). And we know that Jack shows up at the funeral home to pay his respects. But do we know for sure that the person in the clipping was the person in the coffin?


The person in the coffin could have died at any time. But they were laid out in the funeral home at the time we saw. Maybe the viewing was delayed until the body was identified, or after a police investigation was closed, etc.


So who's to say the man that hung himself didn't do it after he heard about the funeral of the person in the coffin? Jack was driven to attempted suicide, maybe the "hangee" was too, after hearing about the coffin person dying.

This could open up the list of "Coffin, Coffin, Who's In The Coffin".

[Soze]

I've also invented a new drinking game. Take a shot every time Jack breaks eye contact with a person to jerk his head about, nod a couple of times and blink a lot. Have an ambulance ready.

We call this game "Jackface." Down a beer every time there are Jears. Swig something every time he Jells at someone. Order a round every time he wears a T-shirt with the arms cut off so we can see his Jattoos.

To add to that...take a swig every time Kate frowns, opens her mouth slightly, narrows her eyes and scrunches up her pretty little nose. Take two swigs if she's a pissy, immature bitch to Sawyer.

Seriously, someone needs to drink a tall glass of shut the fuck up. Splashing water at him? Yeah, not petty at all Kate.

Something else that caught my eye: Kate with her hood up during the trek, in very “Darth Charlie” mode. An Evie-Dom inside joke?

Yes! I thought that too. How cool are we?

I Googled "Through the Looking Glass" and found that it was the sequel to Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

I'm not intending to be rude here, so please don't take offence, but you didn't already know that?

I don't remember seeing the face of the woman who crashed just as Jack was going to jump (in the flash foward). Jack seemed especially concerned and wanting to operate on her. I dont remember hearing her or her son's name Any chance that this could be Claire?

The news report playing when Jack sees the woman's son in the waiting room says that the woman was 40-years-old. Not Claire.

Regarding Jeremy Bentham and the Panopticon...Michel Foucault's theories on the subject described the panopticon as the ideal society, because the inhabitants employed self-discipline. They wouldn't know when exactly they were being watched so they behave all the time. The only downside, I suppose you could call it, is that this is a society ruled by fear. No-one likes to be watched.

The panopticon also describes the use of only one 'guard' (the original idea for the panopticon was of its use as a prison, with one guard in the middle tower observing prison cells around him), i.e. one unseen person in power. Going by that, coffin = Ben, Jacob, or some other person 'in charge' as it were - perhaps someone above Ben and Jacob, maybe someone we haven't seen yet.

This post has been edited by Soze: May 25, 2007 @ 6:45 am.

[samwyse]

FutureJack wants to get back to the island. FutureJack totally loses it when he sees that "JB" is dead. Ergo, the person in the coffin is FutureJack's last chance to get back, i.e. someone who knows where the island is. Ben is one possibility, but I don't seem him leaving the island alive (see below). Anyone leaving on a helecopter and/or rescue ship would have no idea where they'd been, since the crew wouldn't have to take a straight line back to base. (Hmm, could "JB" be a crewmember from the rescue boat?) I vote for it being Michael. (1) He piloted a boat away from the island, so finding him and forcing him to reverse that trip is would have been a "last gasp" way for FutureJack to return. (2) Michael couldn't depend on the others never being found (and surviving the Oceanic crash would be way too hard/dangerous to explain) so he would wanted to set up a new identity as soon as he got back.

Note: If Ben does get "rescued", at a minimum he gets locked up in cell and the key thrown away, since he (1) knows way too much about everything, (2) is way too motivated to return, and (3) has demonstrated a willingness to do *anythying* to get what he wants.

[StarrGazerr]

This thread has become so unwieldy that I completely understand that a lot of questions get repeated. From what I've read, as far as the identity of the person in the coffin, here are my conclusions so far:

1. the person was male (the article said "Man found Dead")
2. the person was probably caucasian (the funeral director would not likely have asked Jack if he was family if it was Michael or Rose - not that it's impossible, just a lot less likely)
3. the person was from New York (in the article)
4. the person was probably NOT a flight 815 survivor. Since everyone knew Jack's name (i.e., the news report of the car accident said ("and they were rescued by Jack Sheppard", not just "they were rescued by a bystander"), it is likely that an obituary of any of the other survivors would have likely started "Flight 815 Survivor found Dead". As to the "coverup" theory, if there was a coverup of the fact that there are 815 survivors, then Jack wouldn't be a famous "hero")
5. the person was someone both Jack and Kate knew, and the person's death was enough to drive Jack to attempt suicide.
6. from the article, it appears that the person was going by the name "J________ __entham". Many are speculating that it is "Jeremy Bentham", yet another famous philosopher, but the name may be an alias for all we know. [Of course, if it was a good alias then the newspapers might not realize it was an 815 survivor, so #4 above would cancel out.]

I don't know who it could be. The above eliminates just about everyone.

[cid]

Why is everyone concentrating on who is in the coffin, when the real question should be: Where is the Dharma shark? Was I the only one waiting for it to pop out during the multiple underwater scenes?