» It's Because I'm ____, Isn't It? Minority Relations Options

[Azrael]

My comments specifically applied to a quoted opinion that in order to win the Apprentice a black man has to have 5 degrees and be unquestionably far superior to any normal apprentice. I haven't seen the evidence of that yet, but I am open to be convinced otherwise. I feel that in order to make this particular judgement there needs to be a case in which a black men/woman who has the same record on the show as Bill, Kelly or Kendra looses to an inferior candidate.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

This post has been edited by Azrael: Dec 12, 2005 @ 2:37 am.

[kisca]

think this is kind of a deterrent to conversation. I believe that it's an oversimplification to say it is as simple as whether or not Kwame, Kevin and Craig were stronger than Bill, Kelly or Kendra.

There are a lot of other questions about race on this show, and some don't have a definitive answer. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be discussed and debated.

I haven't intended my comments to be a deterrent to the conversation. I absolutely agree that race issues deserve to be discussed and debated - which was what I was doing.
My comments specifically applied to a quoted opinion that in order to win the Apprentice a black man has to have 5 degrees and be unquestionably far superior to any normal apprentice. I haven't seen the evidence of that yet, but I am open to be convinced otherwise. I feel that in order to make this particular judgement there needs to be a case in which a black men/woman who has the same record on the show as Bill, Kelly or Kendra looses to an inferior candidate. We may see it with Randal and Rebecca - provided that Randal's task is not a disaster and Rebecca's is not a smashing success. I do agree that Trump's comment about Randal's laziness is obnoxious and could very well be a sign of Trump's racism.

I don't know if Stacie J. was caused by racism, her being different in other respects, a model, different personality, or simple scapegoating that was so much a rule in season 2 which had an unusual high collection of bitchy women than any other season. Stacey J. herself didn't think it was racism - she said in the follow-up interview that she thought it was facial more than racial or something along these lines. Other firings - Omarosa, Marshawn, Tara didn't appear to be racism-motivated.

As far as why Trump preferred Bill to Kwame even before the final task - from what I remember Bill's performance was superior during the whole season. He had a good record as a project manager, he was consistently taking the leadership role - even in one case, I believe, when Kwame was PM. If I remember correctly, before the interviews, Bill and Amy were the choices of most viewers; the choice of Kwamy over Amy and Troy during the interviews was a surprise. So I don't see how any conclusions can be drown from the season one. In season 2 I thought Trump simply wanted men-woman final and Kelly was superior, while in season 3 Tara and Kendra simply did better on the interviews. I think Craig was chosen for the same reason Audrey, Melissa, Danny, Sam were chosen; I also believe they really didn't have enough street-smart candidates.
I think all mistakes are magnified in the final task. Before the final task, I didn't see Randal's mistakes as being magnified, but final task is more important. Also, I think Trump genuinely likes Rebecca. Otherwise, how can you explain her staying that long in place of so many more qualified candidates. I think if Trump seriously thought of reducing Randal's chances to win, he would have pitted him against someone like Alla.

But yes, I am also outraged by Trump's comment about Randal being lazy.

Edited because I got html wrong - must be too late.

This post has been edited by kisca: Dec 11, 2005 @ 10:11 pm.

[Azrael]

But I do think women have it worse than black people. Maybe that's just because there are many more women, but I seriously think Trump has given some really messed up explainations to get rid of various strong women.

Where do the black women (in Trumpland) fall then?

This post has been edited by Azrael: Dec 12, 2005 @ 2:41 am.

[radish042]

Where do the black women (in Trumpland) fall then?

According to the way Trumpy pronounced Marshawn's name, I'd say Mars. ;)

[Chicagoland]

Trump should have used a different word than 'lazy', obviously.

[CheekyCricket]

I think that the problem with Randal seems to be that he is not very good at micromanaging. It seems as if he assesses responsibilities with his workers and entrusts them to hold their own. I think that in this case, that is too much of a flight risk with there being so many small details.

If you watch the preview on the NBC site, Randal makes a comment to this effect, that he can't do everything and has to trust his staff to get many things done. Part of the reason is that he feels that, in this instance, he has an excellent staff who are busting tail to get things done. However, Rebecca is not really a micromanager either, but has handed over a good deal of responsibility to Chris and James, and is trusting them to get major things done--yet this is not being portrayed as a potential flaw, in her case, as it is in Randal's case. Which kind of bugs me. The disparity might not bother me as much if I hadn't read about Trump's now-infamous labelling of Randal as "lazy."

This post has been edited by CheekyCricket: Dec 12, 2005 @ 3:37 pm.

[ghettofabman]

One of my favorite quotes about the show came from my friend, who said something like ".. are there no fat chicks in business?"

I personally would like to see a plus-sized Apprentice as well. The anatomical specimens are wearing thin with me. Give me a real person from the real world.

This post has been edited by ghettofabman: Dec 12, 2005 @ 4:10 pm.

[kisca]

One of my favorite quotes about the show came from my friend, who said something like ".. are there no fat chicks in business?"

personally would like to see a plus-sized Apprentice as well

Plus sizes? I don't remember any woman who is size 10. Maybe Angie from season 3.
Other than that it seems that no woman who wears size 8 or above should bother applying.

[Knots Landing]

Where do the black women (in Trumpland) fall then?

I usually don't break things up into race (except for threads like this), so I'd generally put the black females on the same level as the white ones. I never watch the show thinking that any of them has a chance.

Even when Kendra won last year, you can tell there is a very specific type of Apprentice that he wants. I don't think anyone slightly out of that generic robot mold will ever win regardless of race or sex. And if you havent finished college? Forget it!

[donalsduck]

I don't think anyone slightly out of that generic robot mold will ever win regardless of race or sex.

Priceless words.

[adrem]

But how does stubborn and opinionated Rebecca fit into that generic robot mold?

[kisca]

I usually don't break things up into race (except for threads like this), so I'd generally put the black females on the same level as the white ones. I never watch the show thinking that any of them has a chance.

I always judge people as individuals - my parents taught me to do it since I was a child - ever since I was 6 and the kids on the street (I grew up Jewish in the old Soviet Union) called me a derogatory word and explained that they were "Russians" but that I was not and I was upset "is it my fault?" and my grandfather told me "it doesn't matter who you are only what kind of person you are". I also think we've seen just as much variety among black women as we did among white women.
I guess I am naive because I believed in the beginning of this season that Marshawn would be in the final two. I thought Alla more competent but I didn't think she had a chance with her stripper background and no education. I started to believe in Kendra early on, but initially I thought Tara would win - she seemed very competent and level-headed: "when you are arguing you are not working". I also didn't think that much about Verna's quitting - when they said "somebody would quit", I predicted it would be Verna because I couldn't fathom why would a product manager from Microsoft want to work for Trump. I guess I could also identify with someone getting into something and realizing that it was not for her, so I defended her choice - besides it was great to see somebody "firing" Trump.
Sure, Omarosa was a bitch, but so were Stacy R, Ivana and a bunch of other women. At least Omarosa had personality whereas most of the coven of season 2 were too common. As I mentioned before, I don't know if Stacie J would've been scapegoated had she been white, but I think it is a possibility that anybody who was behaving in an unconventional manner would present a convenient target for the coven of season two. This was the season in which the main theme of every task was "who are we going to blame this time if we fail".

Even when Kendra won last year, you can tell there is a very specific type of Apprentice that he wants. I don't think anyone slightly out of that generic robot mold will ever win regardless of race or sex. And if you havent finished college? Forget it!

I do believe he has a specific type Trump has in mind and that those that haven't finished college don't have a chance. As far as Rebecca is concerned - she has finished college and a good one at that. I think she mostly impressed Trump with her defense of Toral - Trump does value loyalty.

[Azrael]

I usually don't break things up into race (except for threads like this), so I'd generally put the black females on the same level as the white ones.

My original question was about how you perceived the treatment of black women generally, or to keep this on topic, by Trump, or on The Apprentice. I asked because you said women had it worse than black people. I'd argue that for people who are more gender biased than racially biased this might be true if you comared black men to white women. But it wouldn't be true for the subset of black people that are women. My hunch is that the average black woman, or even the atypical black woman, would argue that she treated differently than both black men and white women.

It's too bad we can't take some survey of Apprentice candidates past and present, get their opinion (re: Trump) and then analyze the results by demographic.

This post has been edited by Azrael: Dec 14, 2005 @ 9:56 pm.

[Psyche78]

I'm not someone who generally looks as race as being a deciding factor in things. I pretty much like to avoid throwing out the race card as much as possible. But after watching last night's finale, I just feel so strongly that race played a role, and I am disgusted.

Randal, was by far, the better candidate. On paper, more impressive. His record, more impressive. Yes, both he and Rebecca fucked up their final tasks, but he at least raised some money for his charity through the actual event (not several months later because the corporate sponsor had to CYA).

And yet, when it was his moment to shine, to get his victory, it was taken away from him. For a second, there was the faint sign that the first black apprentice would be (for all intents and purposes) a co-apprentice to a much less-qualified pretty white woman.

And it made me sick.

Randall is being lambasted for choosing not to share the prize. There is talk that his stock has dropped, he will not have much of a future in speaking because he was "ungracious." But let me ask, what would his future be like if he was perceived to have diluted a big win (the first minority win). Would that be acceptable? Honestly, I believe that members of the minority cmmunity would be horrified, and he would lose respect there.

Given the talk about minorities on reality shows - especially Burnett's reality shows - it's really shitty that they did not allow Randall to enjoy his win for even a couple of minutes. Regardless of race, he was the most qualified, and they couldn't even let him feel that way, because Trump immediately wanted to hire someone else. A photogenic, white, pretty, female someone else.

I feel sick.

This post has been edited by Psyche78: Dec 16, 2005 @ 11:58 am.

[J T]

One of my favorite quotes about the show came from my friend, who said something like ".. are there no fat chicks in business?"


I personally would like to see a plus-sized Apprentice as well. The anatomical specimens are wearing thin with me. Give me a real person from the real world.

Word. But to be honest, in my experience there are few women in the corporate world who advance when they are less than perfectly presentable - both looks- and weight-wise.

To be fair, it seems a large percentage of the men are also in the upper half with looks and height and weight, but some of the standards seem to be a bit less stringent for males. You do see a number of men in upper management that you know only have their trophy wife based on power and finances, not due to looks.

Oh well, as they say, life's not fair.