» Rescue Me Options

[oufti]

I don't like Tommy Gavin, have never liked Tommy Gavin. It doesn't make it right that that somehow distances me from the idea of this rape. Maybe my brain has already told me it's tv, not real life. I watch Tony Soprano kill people and I'm able to put it somewhere and continue to enjoy the show.

So do I. I still watch The Shield, love Profit and Oz.

I still wait for next week to see if it was a "rape" for Janet. I don't dispute that it was, for me, a rape. But like some people said, maybe it was usual in their couple. I'm also still upset about the Johnny beating two episodes ago. By the way, those scene were harsch maybe/probably too harsch but in the same time there were really welldone.

To Tommy, it was indeed more of a "stick it to my asshole brother" move then a "I really desire my wife" move, hence the satisfied smile (which I saw more as an 'I made it out before he got to me' smile), but hey, just my $.02.

It's my two cents too.
Like I said before, I think Tommy is taking it out on Johnny not only because Johnny/Janet affair.

[Lila82]

One more thought after pondering the final scene again because I don't think I can watch it again, but it was totally foreshadowed. Tommy/Johnny's non-sensical conversation was almost a set up for a sexual encounter -- Johnny even mentioned it would be a quick in and out! I guess we were supposed to see it coming, and knowing the repeated references to the Gavins settling things with violence, that we were supposed to see it coming down like that. At first I wondered if maybe T/J are setting Janet up, but Johnny's final revelation of a lifetime of lusting after her worthless ass kind of ruined that little bit of Gavin brilliance. So I guess my point is that while the scene was excellently-written and set up well, it just hit me in every wrong way, and not in the "wow, I need to think and process this" kind of way, but the "damn, can the show really come back from this kind of way."

This post has been edited by Lila82: Jun 21, 2006 @ 3:49 pm.

[Sumik]

Johnny's final revelation of a lifetime of lusting after her worthless ass

- that reminds me!

Johnny mentions something about Junior Prom as when he and Janet first got together or when he first was attracted to her - but wasn't it established in an earlier season that Janet and Tommy got together while she was in college? Or were they together in high school, but she left college to marry him?

[BunnyBun]

Here is the part from the interview with Andrea Roth and tvguide.com:
Roth: [Pause] I don't know how much you want things ruined... but [SPOILER ALERT] Tommy is going to come over and we get in a bit of an argument. He pushes me down, and we end up having sex.

TVGuide.com: I can't let you go without trying to eke out one final Rescue Me spoiler. Surprise me.
Roth: Well, when Tommy comes over and we have sex, it starts off very violent, and you're not really certain exactly what the hell happened. I read in an article that Denis said that scene actually shows how complicated and strong the sexual pull is between these two people and why they are together and find it so hard to be apart. I haven't seen it, but a bunch of producers have said it's their favorite scene.

Appears the writers/producers/actors did not intend the scene to be a rape. However it is like seeing Jesus in a potato chip, people see what they want to see.

[Amelie06]

I missed all of season 1. Can someone please tell me what this Probie rape storyline is about?

I'm sure that in the next episode, Janet will be running around like nothing important happened. I would have less of a problem with this if she were a real person. If a real woman decided that she liked rough sex and wanted to be dominated, I'm not here to judge. But, Janet isn't real. So when I see her acting laid back and nonchalant about what happened, it is just the writers. They don't think something like that qualifies as rape, so Janet can remain unaffected by the assault.

I'm not sure what kind of rape laws exist in NY. In some states a woman basically has to fight for her life to avoid the rape in order for a conviction. In terms of Janet's failure to say no, this should not matter. Obviously if she gave no indication that she did not want his attentions, this would be a more difficult issue. But she repeatedly tried to push him off of her. I think this would have been enough, even in the more harsh rape statute states, to indicate to a reasonable person that she did not wish to have sex. I think the writers should have more clearly picked one or the other. Either they were having crazy rough sex and both were into it from the start, or he raped her. Making some offensive hybrid is horrifying.

I finally saw the scene where Tommy beats Johnny. I find this equally as horrifying. Why did no one call the police? Someone a few pages back brought up a subject that I do find interesting. What is worse, raping someone or savagly beating them? Rape or murder? As a young feminist of sorts, I want to say rape is worse than anything, but how much of that is just social conditioning? Why is Johnny's prolonged and horrific beating (that actually included Tommy assualting Janet and Probie) not as bad as the rape? I havev no clue what the answer to these questions are, but I ask myself this anytime I see a show or movie where the answer to a character's rape is to kill the rapist. Anyway, I don't mean to get off topic, but I find the whole subject baffling, horrifying, facinating, and sad.

This post has been edited by Amelie06: Jun 21, 2006 @ 4:05 pm.

[KMax]

I saw the scene completely differently. From my perspective: she tried really hard to get him off of her (she hit/scratched him to the point that she drew blood); then she went into a quiet shock when she realized he was actually going to go through with raping her; then at the very end she seemed to enjoy it a little.

That hitting and scratching? I think that was foreplay for her. I think it turned her on.

[Gates]

I finally saw the scene where Tommy beats Johnny. I find this equally as horrifying. Why did no one call the police?

The FDNY Brotherhood knew not to involve themselves in what was clearly a family affair. Oh, and Johnny's a cop. Cops & Firefighters don't mix, as we saw from the hockey games earlier in the series. No one called the cops becasuse no one wanted to.

I was in a fistfight outside of a bar in front of a cop (well, more off to the side.) When he started over to confront us, we stopped, turned to the officer, and informed him that we were brothers, fighting over family shit. The cop nodded and walked back to his post. Point was, we weren't going to kill each other, we just needed to beat on each other for awhile, then go back inside to our pints, and resolve the situation over a few more beers. (yes, I'm Irish/Scottish. Why?)

This post has been edited by Gates: Jun 21, 2006 @ 4:32 pm.

[bahamarita]

I don't remember the hitting and scratching. I remember her pushing him back.

As I said before, it could be construed as rape from the outside looking in. But, I think the exchange where Tommy apologizes for tearing her shirt, and she replies, "It's not one of my favorites," kind of epitomizes this realtionship. He's violent and destructive, she goes along with it. We've seen them fight before, and she can get pretty violent, too, although I really think she tries to rein it in. I think that if she had wanted to, she would have fought him off. And I think that if she had started thrashing around and fighting, Tommy would have gotten off of her.

Add that to the fact that she put that living room back together and changed clothes in the few minutes before Johnny showed up and that tells me that this was consensual sex. Not pretty sex. But sex between two people who have taken each other to hell and back, obviously have a lot of sexual chemistry, and who are both pretty unstable.

ETA: They never kissed during the act. This wasn't an intimate encounter. I wonder if it was kind of like unfinished business between them. Kind of the final goodbye they never got after Connor died. An abuse of each other because they blame each other.

I'm up to 4 cents worth of opinion today.

This post has been edited by bahamarita: Jun 21, 2006 @ 4:49 pm.

[Zakutansky]

I think the smile when Tommy was driving away at the end was about sleeping with his brothers girfriend and possibly trying to get Janet pregnant.

[Hairymango]

Did Johnny say "no" during his beatdown? He must have wanted it then.

Unless the attacker/attackee have an understanding, complete with a safety word, fighting someone off is the physical equivalent of "no".

As for probie's "rape", that scene wasn't shown in its entirety (not titillating enough, I suppose) and when he talks about it to the guys at the station, he denies that he was entered by the crazy guy who chained him up. The men razz him about that possibilty, but he shakes his head.

As for "everyone" liking the Tommy/Johnny fight, well, I'm part of everyone and I didn't like it at all. True, I didn't say "no" but I didn't consent, either.

This post has been edited by Hairymango: Jun 21, 2006 @ 5:08 pm.

[BetyBee]

I didn't like the Tommy/Johnny beatdown either.

During the rape/violent sex whatever that was, I was glad Connor was gone too, so he doesn't have to grow up to be like either one of his parents. The girls however, will be totally screwed up. I sure hope they didn't make another kid. If they did, I guess the storyline will be which Gavin is the babydaddy. How the heck did Janet get that room cleaned up and different clothes, including boots, on so fast? She will not be able to hide the bruises on her wrists from Johnny, and I am certain she will have bruises. I think in Tommy's distorted viewpoint, he's giving the green light to Janet and Johnny's relationship, but that smug smile is all about getting the last word, so to speak. Re the Junior Prom, was Johnny saying he and Janet got it on that night, or just that he fell for her that night? I guess time will tell.

ETA

OMG Betybee . .

bunny, you do realize I was sarcastically referring to Janet's very cruel line to Tommy? I would never be truly glad that a child is dead.

This post has been edited by BetyBee: Jun 22, 2006 @ 6:27 am.

[mom2jack]

I was working on the computer last night while RM was on in the background, and the last 5 minutes certainly got my attention. I will refrain on public comment until I really figure out what exactly I thought of the scene! Regardless, the actions of both parties were definitely NOT surprising.

I did like the scene with Lou at the railroad tracks... of course I was visualizing the old "shoe caught in the ties while the train is coming" scenario (talk about cliches!). But it's funny, I did not and do not think that bum was real. I think it was a symbol of sorts in Lou's conciousness, telling him that "you need to stop hurting yourself and talk to someone." Still, I wonder if Jerry would have been a better friend to go to than Tommy. When the "bum" told him to go ahead and go first, he finally realized how close he was to killing himself (by drinking, living in a hole, not via electrocution).

I hate the Probie storyline. Dumb dialogue and boring.

Love Sean (still). Like Jerry more each week - I want more of him and Rose.

Can't wait until the SS guest appearance is finished. It is such an unbelievable relationship.

I'm not giving up on the show yet. Besides, there's nothing else on.

[BunnyBun]

During the rape/violent sex whatever that was, I was glad Connor was gone too, so he doesn't have to grow up to be like either one of his parents.

OMG Betybee . .

[JimSpriggs]

This is Peter Tolan. I learned about this site a few days ago while reading an article in EW, so I checked out the RM forum. I'm amazed about the quality of our fans. Some really interesting takes on things - even the people who take us to task do so in a consistantly thoughtful manner. And to the person who saw the World Series ring on DL's hand in the truck near the end of last season's finale - you made his day. He didn't think anyone would ever notice.

Let me affix the target to my back - there - now I'll continue. About last night's episode and the scene near the end between Tommy and Janet. We tried to be extremely careful about that scene. I did not direct the episode, but I did my most careful writing in preparing the scene. Our feeling has always been that Tommy and Janet are in a highly dysfunctional relationship (obviously), a negative vortex fueled by only one positive - a faint glimmer of love that is constantly overshadowed by truly fantastic physical attraction. In terms of the scene last night, I never wrote the words 'don't' or 'no' at any point in the scene, and when I talked to Andrea about the playing of the thing, I pretty much told her that she had to stand up to Tommy - that he had taken so much away from her over the years, that she had to stare him down from a position of strength while he was forcing himself on her. I told her to shame him with the words she was given - to let him know she couldn't hurt her anymore, no matter what he did.

Did this come across? For many viewers, obviously not. I was not on set the day the scene was shot (I live in California and am only in NYC when I direct episodes), so maybe those ideas weren't followed through as well as they could have been. I'll admit this is extremely dicey stuff. The idea of any woman 'enjoying' being raped is repellant, and caused all of us (and the network) a great deal of concern. But again, these are seriously damaged people who are unable to express their emotions - and so expression through brutality has become expected.

I don't want to answer to many other questions - although I'm sure I will in the weeks to come should anyone care to ask. But I do want to clear up the Probie story issue, which no one seems to be enjoying. I also want to clear up a quote that was attributed to me, about torturing Mike Lombardi with this storyline.

I came up with this story idea during one of our first story sessions of the year. Many times on this show, I'll pitch something that seems a little out there - even to me. This was one of those stories. I don't want to go into too much detail, but it was never pitched as a joke to see Lombardi discomfitted. Hey, we're moronic at times, but that's going too far. The truth of the story is - we've sort of bailed on the original pitch and now we're neither fish nor fowl. The original pitch had Probie much more invested in the relationship with the guy. When the crew found out about what was going on, they joked and slowly accepted it, but something else happened - they all started to chip away at him, questioning him, breaking his resolve about his choice. Soon he'd be so uncertain about what he was doing, he'd go to the guy with the intent of breaking things off. The guy - in love with Mike - would respond violently - and I can't say much more. It was very dark and much more interesting than what we've got now. Honestly, we disagreed about the story among ourselves - and now we're stuck with a much more shallow story that's played, sadly, more for laughs.

Welcome to writing a television drama. We're trying to do something different with RM - straddling a thin line between heart-wrenching drama and balls-out comedy. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don't. Again, sorry if anyone was offended by the scene last night. That was not our intention.

And to the person who's had so many lovely things to say about me the last few hours, I wrote this whole post with both hands securely on the keyboard. Thought that might help you lighten up a little bit.

[EHParson]

I came up with this story idea during one of our first story sessions of the year. Many times on this show, I'll pitch something that seems a little out there - even to me. This was one of those stories. I don't want to go into too much detail, but it was never pitched as a joke to see Lombardi discomfitted. Hey, we're moronic at times, but that's going too far. The truth of the story is - we've sort of bailed on the original pitch and now we're neither fish nor fowl. The original pitch had Probie much more invested in the relationship with the guy. When the crew found out about what was going on, they joked and slowly accepted it, but something else happened - they all started to chip away at him, questioning him, breaking his resolve about his choice. Soon he'd be so uncertain about what he was doing, he'd go to the guy with the intent of breaking things off. The guy - in love with Mike - would respond violently - and I can't say much more. It was very dark and much more interesting than what we've got now. Honestly, we disagreed about the story among ourselves - and now we're stuck with a much more shallow story that's played, sadly, more for laughs.

To be perfectly honest, in my opinion, the story you described doesn't sound that much more interesting, or perhaps I'm biased because I've seen those movies about the crazy/violent gay who is obsessed with the straight person and gets violent about it (the worst being that thing with Elizabeth Ashley...I think it was called Windows). I'm actually quite relieved that you didn't do this story, to be honest.

I did wonder why you said that you felt the show had an unhealthy obsession with homosexuality, because it seems to me, this story (and the story you described as originally wanting to do) would be part of that obsession, wouldn't it? And (if you don't mind another question) have you ever considered just making one of the characters gay, and telling a story from their point of view? All of the gay-related stories have been about how a straight person sees homosexuality.

I realize that there are a lot of screwed up gays, and that NY firefighters are generally not going to be very supportive of gays, but if the show is going to have these types of stories, then I'd like to see some kind of a break from gay-bashings, the stuff with Probie's rape in season 1, and now this stuff with Probie and his roommate. The stuff with Chief's son was better (that was more about the Chief and his homophobia then about the son, but that's understandable I guess, as Chief is a main character and the son was not), but I've always wondered if that's going to end in Chief rejecting his son or with the son and his partner having a bad end to their relationship. I can see why you would think the show has had too many gay-related stories. I just hope that the next time the show does this, they can do something different from what has been presented in the past 3 seasons, just for variety's sake.

This post has been edited by EHParson: Jun 21, 2006 @ 6:33 pm.