» Avatar: The Last Airbender Options

[Zero Hour]

I mean Zuko's character is practically a cliche (incensed arrogant honor obsessed kungfu guy). How's this going to attract asian actors who want to be taken as nonforeign or stuck doing kungfu.

What Asian actor in their right mind wouldn't want to play a complex anti-hero with a redemption arc that would presumably span three films? Not only that but one with a meaty back story and parental abandonment issues. Especially when you consider how rare it is for Asian actors to be given well-rounded characters like Zuko in major Hollywood films.

I hear complaints about Asians in pop culture being stuck as nerds or attached to martial arts and treated as perpetual foreigners or subjected to false ideas from complex concepts boiled to simplicity. I wanna know, honestly, for the individual asian actors what should attract them to Avatar that AVOIDS the problems people complain about when it seems to run headlong into them or risk to.

The characters in Avatar are three-dimensional and fully realized. They are not simple ethnic stereotypes. Just because the show evokes the cultures and ideas of Asian and Inuit cultures (and has characters that are very obviously of these ethnic backgrounds) does not magically make it offensive to those cultures. Under your logic The Lord of the Rings must be presenting negative stereotypes of European white people because it's steeped in the aesthetics of the European middle ages and thus would have been more palatable if all the white actors had been replaced with Asian actors.

There are plenty of fantastic characters in movies and television that could be seen as having "stereotypical" qualities. Sun and Jin on Lost in some ways reflect the American perception of the inequality in husband-wife relationships of Koreans, but part of the joy of the show is seeing how these characters are far more complex than that. Using a stereotype as a window into these characters, the writers on Lost have created two of televisions most fully formed and realized Asian characters. Hiro on Heroes initially conforms to the stereotype of the Japanese office drone, but as the show explored the character it was obvious he had hopes, dreams and ambitions that in many ways make him the antithesis of the stereotype. I can't imagine many Asian actors begrudging the existence of any of these roles and I can't imagine for a second how it would have been better if these roles were suddenly reconcieved as white. Television would be poorer for it if they had.

More importantly Katara's voice, attitude, etc come from Mae's performance. Katara is how Mae portrayed her plus some speculatory analysis I've had and heard here and elsewhere. Mae is white. How can I say this white girl can be a darkskinned blue eyed straight brown haired girl and not this OTHER white girl who needs to adapt the performance to a new medium.

Katara has also visually NEVER been white and has never dressed like a white girl or lived in a white society. Animation and live action are inherently different. Mae Whitman is not solely responsible for the performance of Katara. The animation and Mae Whitman's voice are combined to create Katara. In a live action version the actress is responsible for bringing everything that Mae Whitman and the animation brought to the character. Mae Whitman could portray the character because she had the help of the animators to bring in the aspects of Katara that she could not. By casting a white girl in the part, they've given the role to someone who cannot accurately portray the character on screen because she is missing an essential part of who Katara is (her ethnicity).

[jedifreac]

Animation and live action are inherently different. Mae Whitman is not solely responsible for the performance of Katara. The animation and Mae Whitman's voice are combined to create Katara. In a live action version the actress is responsible for bringing everything that Mae Whitman and the animation brought to the character. Mae Whitman could portray the character because she had the help of the animators to bring in the aspects of Katara that she could not.

Correct! Voice actors are cast only for their ability to play a role (and or bring in the $$$). In foreign dubs of Avatar, I'm not going to complain if say, the Japanese Aang or Spanish Aang is played by a girl. That's not the point. On the DVDs, one of the documentary explores the animation team behind the art of Avatar. One of the things the animators talk about is how, although the voice actors provide the voice and tone of the characters, it is up to them to depict the characters' physical appearance, movements, and facial expressions. They refer to sample footage sent in by the creators (some of it is footage shot by the two creators themselves) and other times look at their own faces in the mirrors.

Many of the animators talk about how they feel like actors, too, except instead of using their bodies, they are using their pencils.

The animators, by the way, were South Korean. With this kind of faulty logic, I could argue that for maximum accuracy to the animated series, we should hire a South Korean actress to move around an Inuit actress dressed like Katara and then have an white American actress dub Katara's voice. The point in the live-action movie is to find a person who can do all of this, including representing the character's physical appearance.. The fact that some of the voice actors on the show were white has no bearing on whether or not the actors in the movie should be white. The combination of a <i>pan-ethnic</i> cast of American voice actors and Korean animators all worked together to depict the writers' vision Katara as a believable and complex character; this kind of cross-cultural collaboration is what I've personally come to expect from this franchise. I'm not seeing it in this casting.

Heck I'm not sure why a couple of the VAs aren't the actors for their characters.

I'm classmates with one of the VAs. Known this person for years. This person is white. We always assumed that if there were a movie, this person would NOT be cast. Why? Because this person is white and it wouldn't make sense to cast a white person when Avatar is so deeply influenced by Asian culture. People would accuse the studio of racism. (Go figure.) Also, this person is much older than his/her character. Then they went ahead and cast someone older and just as white.

So if it really isn't about race, and is about "the best person for the job" I posit my friend is the best person for the job. My friend originated the character. My friend was really good on the TV show. They didn't cast my friend though...

"Avatar: The Last Airbender is a truly unique comic adventure with rich animation and incredible martial-arts choreography. Creators Bryan Konietzko and Mike DiMartino designed a fantastical Asian world with compelling characters and interesting creatures that will capture kids' imaginations and spirit."

Basically, when they first advertised the show, Nickelodeon gladly used the words "Asian world" to rather accurately describe and advertise the show. (!!!)

Despite this acknowledgment, now they have cast a homogeneous cast to depict this self-described "Asian world" on film, a cast that doesn't include any Asians at all. To call Avatar an "Asian World" yet employ no Asian actors is a very strange decision that veers dangerously towards yellowface. To depict an "Asian World" with a completely white cast is frankly, almost laughable. And it's definitely not true to the spirit of the show, which emphasizes balance and diverse people living in harmony.

This post has been edited by jedifreac: Dec 21, 2008 @ 3:58 pm.

[HLynn]

For anyone still thinking maybe there wasn't a good enough audition by an asian boy for the role of Aang, here's a video you should watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF66pFElnL0...feature=related

I think he's got the martial arts side nailed. :) Acting is on another of the videos, and I don't think he was bad. All he would need is a little polishing.

[manticoraus]

-replying to a number of posts at once-
The texan karate champ better be fucking amazing if this was one of the REJECTS.

Okay lesson learned even if a character invokes possible offense the importance is well research (accurate understanding of the possible stereotype - power imbalance in korean marriages) with three dimensional realization/performance Zuko starts amazingly broad but manages to be both compelling and flawed at the same time. For one he's not a badboy in the pop sense= A little sexy-dangerous - he's actually flawed by his trauma but also by his own motives and grows in a very organic and realistic way past that. Even if you could sum him up as arrogant honor obsessed kungfu guy and it wouldn't be offensive as that's the root or the trunk of the character look at all the branches and fruit.

Iroh is the same. Tricky wise old asian mentor. Yes. But I don't know what it is I just got more of a sense he was an actual person that you KNEW was a retired general and there isn't something specific I can point to that convinced me because if a person says it I usually doubt such. I think its mainly the look of his clothes, body language and of course Mako's retardedly awesome performance. I still say if they've got the woman for the role bring it.

I would say in Katara's case the whiteness comes from...hmmm. the assumption of entitlement to peace and importance combined with how she treats her family. Its similar to why I don't join into the torche and pitchfork mobs to burn down the "sassy black lady" as well that's how I've seen a number of my mom, her mother, and female friends act. If sassy black lady is only sassy and black and female that's a problem but whether the nurse from Scrubs or Countess Vaughn or Mo/nique that's flavor of black women that's a part of the behavior. There is similar flavor in how you could say is a part of white teenager females from 'neutral' regions behave that comes off strongly in Whitman's Katara's case. Her character's background and appearance are different from the general performance which is like 'white american teenager' save with traits that aren't ethnic so much as character specific such as her mothering issues and underhandedness and waterbending.

She's just generic american teen and not that ethnic save those instances where she remembers cultural bits like penguin sledding, water tribe food, or the ice dodging. I just find it odd she goes all "well I'm banished too" like its nothing. Ditto her opening rant about cooking and sewing when there are no properly able adults about in large numbers and well I thought tribes had to band together (especially at the level of sophistication the SWT is rendered as thanks to the lack of men and threat of raids).

Aside So Sokka doesn't do ANY of those things and as one of the most appropriately aged people her being pressed to do them is a sign of sexism as to just "you're the youngest in the tribe of the women and the second elder of the children sucks to be you" /Aside

Given her background and setting that's an awful lot of defiance for people she may not love (and she totally loves them) but most certainly should define society and civilization for her. Outside her tribe exists nothing but threats, poverty, and loneliness with maybe Aang, Appa the bison that might fly, and a possible waterbending teacher on the otherside of the world. So she can come off as very much conforming to american well to do (or well off) white teenage expectations. She feels very free to judge adults or elders in a way so liberal it pushes at disbelief. I don't mean Pakku, Pakku was a specific obstacle to her character goals ANYONE would oppose Pakku if he was so dismissive and stymying. I mean stuff like with her father, or General Fong, or how she'll iniate conversation directly with Oyaji (village elder) or argue how children should be raised with Haru's Mom and etc.. Sokka affects some manner of deference, Aang as well (with varying degrees of success.) Katara comes off close to a manic pixie girl You'll note something about that list of women, right, that they have in common? Almost frail, cute, retardedly pretty and enabled to do as they so will coming off like scriptinsured version of the hippie chick from True Blood from likely liberal/highclass standing (or behaves as such though the plot may insist they are poor or backpackers or something) and all of them on the list are white.

Mainly though I hear katara's voice and ton's as the one Mae provide with, ya, the body language and appearance of katara but I knew going live action there would be concessions to reality (Katara looks less inuit so much as mixed maybe polynesian or mongolian, and not unreal but ethnically she's all over the place with the hair, eyes, skintone, facial features, build) and I wasn't set that "Katara must be played by a native american" so much as "I hope katara has darkskin but whoever they choose will have alot of cosmetic effects tossed on her." Now I wish Katara's actress had darker skin but it feels *petty* to say she shouldn't have the part because she lacks pigmentation if she has the talent to take on the role in an even more trying capacity than Mae Whitman did (body language, costuming, STUNTWORK).

This post has been edited by manticoraus: Dec 23, 2008 @ 4:58 pm.

[Zero Hour]

Katara is not even remotely a manic pixie girl. The show takes too many opportunities to point out that Katara is overly motherly for her age and not all that fun of a person especially when fun conflicts with her deep sense of moral outrage (pretty much the entire plot of The Runaway revolves around this idea as does the more contentious aspects of Katara's relationship with Toph). She's not at all flighty or spontaneous and definitely not free of inhibitions. Hell Aang fits the archetype of the manic pixie girl better than Katara does.

[TheNarrator]

For anyone still thinking maybe there wasn't a good enough audition by an asian boy for the role of Aang, here's a video you should watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF66pFElnL0...feature=related

Hot damn! That kid is good.

Reagarding the idea that the Texan karate kid might have been chosen because he "moved right", I'd like to say this: I know karate. I took karate for seven years. The movements in karate are absolutely nothing like the Bagua that airbenders use.

[manticoraus]

Katara is not even remotely a manic pixie girl. The show takes too many opportunities to point out that Katara is overly motherly for her age and not all that fun of a person especially when fun conflicts with her deep sense of moral outrage (pretty much the entire plot of The Runaway revolves around this idea as does the more contentious aspects of Katara's relationship with Toph). She's not at all flighty or spontaneous and definitely not free of inhibitions. Hell Aang fits the archetype of the manic pixie girl better than Katara does.

Okay. Point. I thought the point was a woman who followed her heart damn conventions and sense and makes things and people better. That is something else (which as broadly as I stated it is every non action plot hero EVER)

[Aurinos]

For anyone still thinking maybe there wasn't a good enough audition by an asian boy for the role of Aang, here's a video you should watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF66pFElnL0...feature=related
Hot damn! That kid is good.

Reagarding the idea that the Texan karate kid might have been chosen because he "moved right", I'd like to say this: I know karate. I took karate for seven years. The movements in karate are absolutely nothing like the Bagua that airbenders use.

Hell yes! Thank you, The Narrator, for pointing this out. Just because it's a martial art doesn't mean it's all the same. That worries me, too. The attitude that, "Oh well, he knows karate, he'll be fine!" Taekwondo does not equal karate, karate does not equal Bagua, Bagua does not equal Krav Maga... you get the point. At least the kid above knows Northern Shaolin, which is in the general family of Kung Fu that Bagua is - plus, Aang eventually Firebends, so the Northern Shaolin training would come in handy then. The form of ignorance this shows is another mark against and already ignorant-sounding production.

[Eegah]

So, I finally got my parents to sit down and watch the first two episodes. They're not blown away, but interested enough to see more. My mother's one real comment beyond that was right after Aang's dream about putting himself in the iceberg: "Are we supposed to be able to tell what was going on from that?" I assured her we'd get the full story before too long, and it did make me realize the show was a little more confident starting out than I recall: what other American cartoon series would put a weird little scene like that in without showing us what was really going on until weeks later?

Oh, and they both got a big kick from Sokka's boomerang circling back to nail Zuko.

[Zero Hour]

what other American cartoon series would put a weird little scene like that in without showing us what was really going on until weeks later?

The Venture Brothers

[TheNarrator]

Taekwondo does not equal karate, karate does not equal Bagua, Bagua does not equal Krav Maga... you get the point.

Of the martial arts used for bending in the series, the one with moves most reminiscent of karate (or taekwondo, for the kicks) to me was the Hung Gar used by the Earthbenders. We have a riding stance that's essentially the same as horse stance, and other very solid stances but its not focused on to the same degree as in Hung Gar. In sparring or a fight, karateka generally eschew being "deeply rooted" in favor of being able to maneuver to evade or attack.

The ones with the least resemblance are probably Bagua and Tai Chi. Karate's a fairly direct style.

So, I finally got my parents to sit down and watch the first two episodes. They're not blown away, but interested enough to see more. My mother's one real comment beyond that was right after Aang's dream about putting himself in the iceberg: "Are we supposed to be able to tell what was going on from that?" I assured her we'd get the full story before too long, and it did make me realize the show was a little more confident starting out than I recall: what other American cartoon series would put a weird little scene like that in without showing us what was really going on until weeks later?

Cool.

It hadn't occurred to me before (probably because I'm used to anime dropping me in with no explanation) but that was a pretty gutsy move for a cartoon, leaving so many unanswered questions early on: Aang's glowy Avatar state, Iroh seeing into the Spirit World, how Zuko got his scar, etc.

Don't worry if they're not blown away. Took me a few episodes to really get into the series, too.

Oh, and they both got a big kick from Sokka's boomerang circling back to nail Zuko.

Well, who doesn't love seeing that? ;-)

Speaking of Zuko, he's still trying to get the hang of this whole "empathy" thing.

[Ambrosefolly1]

I'm not sure about Jesse McCarthy as Prince Zuko. I know at one time he was capable of acting and maybe he will surprise me, but I'm not holding my breath. I think that someone like Max Minghella would be a better fit, because I thought he was pretty good in Art School Confidential and he is half asian. I agree with the poster that said they should at least attempt to find people of Asian and/or American Indian descent, or cast people who look the part.

[Eegah]

We all just watched The Southern Air Temple. They're a lot more interested now, particularly in Zuko since it's already clear he's going to be more than just the guy chasing the heroes. Also, I realized this is the first demonstration by Mike and Bryan that they're willing to keep track of different character groups even if they have nothing to do with each other in a particular episode. Though my father still isn't quite over seeing it as a typical cartoon; halfway through he said "Seriously, what's the deal with the eye?"

I'm hoping to get them to keep going at least until The Storm, which is the episode that completely hooked me after just being mildly interested until then. Hopefully that can get them to pick up the pace.

We just got through Warriors of Kyoshi, the first one I really wasn't looking forward to sitting through with my parents. Like The Great Divide, the writers clearly came up with a moral they wanted to impart and structed a barebones story around it, though unlike that episode Mike and Bryan were later able to use what the story set up to much better effect down the road. I really cringe at how blatantly sexist Sokka is here; it doesn't even really count as character development as he wasn't on this same level in the three previous episodes. And seeing as Suki becomes his canon Official Love Interest, it really seems wrong that we don't get to see him learn her name; he just suddenly knows it when he asks her to teach him.

What's good about it? Well, Suki's a pretty strong character right off the bat even being paired with a horribly derailed Sokka for most of her screen time, and the Unagi is pretty scary. That's about it, though.

[Aurinos]

The other funny thing about that episode is that when Katara spies the Fire Nation ship coming on shore, she goes, "Zuko!" That's the first time a member of Team Avatar ever says his name - I guess Aang picked it up on the ship? We never find out how they all of a sudden pick up his name...

This post has been edited by Aurinos: Dec 30, 2008 @ 1:57 pm.

[MegaJ]

Jackson Rathbone (Sokka) talks The Last Airbender:

Due in theaters in summer 2010, "Airbender" has already begun to face a bit of controversy over the casting of white actors like Rathbone, Ringer and McCartney to play Asian characters — a concern the actor was quick to dismiss. "I think it's one of those things where I pull my hair up, shave the sides, and I definitely need a tan," he said of the transformation he'll go through to look more like Sokka. "It's one of those things where, hopefully, the audience will suspend disbelief a little bit."

Oh boy....