» 1-9: "Solitary" 2004.11.17 Options

[dml]

As for remorse, when he was leaving Kate, he said that was the reason, that he'd done something he swore he would never do again, and didn't deserve to be with the group until he could trust himself again (paraphrasing). And with Danielle, he said he'd done something he was ashamed of.

I too love Sayid and Jack, and I don't feel like they need to apologize any further for what they did to Sawyer. He brought it all on himself with his asshat behavior and overall disdain for every other person on the island.

don't think either one of them owe Sawyer a thing. Sawyer's life wasn't threatened. Shannon's was. Withholding information about her medicine was tantamount to torturing her. And Sawyer's *reasons* for withholding the info? Ohhhh, pooor pitiful wretch... he feels baaaaaaaad about himself.

ITA, I felt that way last week and nothing has happened to change my mind. I'm starting to think that Sawyer just wants attention, doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.

[jm chen]

I'm starting to think that Sawyer just wants attention, doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.

Sort of a "no such thing as bad publicity" idea? I could definitely see that.

When Michael drew the aqueduct, did anyone else think "Now the town can grow above size 6?" Other Civ players? No? Okay.

Liked the reveals in this, and the moving forward of the mystery. Now we know who sent the transmission. Of course, now we have more questions (is Alex a boy? a girl? a machine? a zombie? a 20-year-old? a 40-year-old? a dinosaur? dead?) to replace them, but it helps stave off the sense of frustration one gets from, say, late X-Files.

[Turik Karadin]

TWoP! You’re back! I was going through withdrawal waaay worse than Charlie’s....

Big major points to Sawyer for the zing-factor on this episode. First with the "She does" to Jack at the beginning, and then the hilarious, "A doctor playin' golf? I've seen everything!" His delivery is amazing, his load obviously a bit lightened, and damn. He's just so cute when he's being a sarcastic ass.

Or just ass. But yes, the sark was primo. And you could so tell he wants to be friends, poor thing, and probably did all along, he just didn't know how.

Was it just me, or did Sayid forget Nadia's pictures in La Lair de Crazy?

No, he left them, and the camera made a big ol’ anvil shot out of them sitting there on the table or trunk-top or whatever. So you knooow it’s going to matter later on.

I remember Sayid and Danielle mentioning something about batteries. Does anyone remember what exactly went on in that exchange?

Sayid mentioned as to the batteries in Maison Wacqueau not being strong enough to send the transmission signal, and she said no, the signal (or the really good batteries) originates elsewhere, in the territory controlled by the Others.

There are so many questions that are going to keep me up for a good while tonight, but the main one is: what the hell was that cable?
It’s not thick enough to be a communications cable (and if it was, how did Danielle manage to drag it inland) and it doesn’t seem to be a power cable as well, as it’s heading out into the middle of the ocean.

I was wondering about this, too. At first I thought communication cable, then power cable, then I just didn’t know. Maybe it was some kind of monster leash? Or connection to the offshore underwater lair of the Others? (Hey, Atlantis has been found!) The ones who grabbed Joanna and dragged her down to live with them in their pineapple under the sea?

It's probably not relevant but "Black Rock" was once slang for the headquarters of CBS, which I guess was in a building with a black rock façade. Maybe it's an inside joke on an ABC series to make "black rock" a bad or dangerous place. There's also a movie called "Bad Day at Black Rock" in which "a one handed stranger comes to a tiny town possessing a terrible past they want to keep secret, by violent means if necessary."

Mr. Turik worked at Black Rock for a number of years before we left NYC. And yes, it’s still called Black Rock. It’s a world-class-gorgeous building designed by architect Eero Saarinen, a black basalt monolith with no signage. Piers of black basalt, actually. Looks sorta like Orthanc.

When they were going to put up another building next door, there was some talk of doing a matching “White Rock”, but it proved prohibitively expensive and they just went with a boring old generic thing.

I've already deleted the ep where Locke encounters the Very Tall Life Altering Whatsit so can't remember the way the encounter was framed, but is it possible that what Locke encountered was the Black Rock? Was it definite in the camera work that the VTLAW was what was moving, or is it possible that Locke could've turned round and round and suddenly found himself at the base of this very tall Black Rock and looked up and up and up at it?

I don’t think so. It seemed to be that the trees that had been tossing around due to Monster Action parted and a very large Something stood there, which Locke gazed adoringly up at. But I’d have to watch again.
I think the Black Rock is a place perhaps even the den of the Others, since Delenn said they were “coming back” from there.

I believe that Sayid is the second person among the survivors to see The Invisible face to face. Does this mean he is now under its mind control too?

I don’t think he actually did see it. The trees were tossin’, but not like they do when the Inviz is around---it was just wind. And he heard things, but didn’t see anything.

Last week, in Fauxyer's episode, he handed Sayid a knife in the exact same manner. This week, it was Walt. I wonder if there's something to that. Huh.

And back in Ep 2 it was Michael. To help hunt him some orcs. Uh, boar.

That entire scene in front of the jet engine? That man can work the dimples and downcast expression like no one else...damn...

I do believe my underpants burst into flame at that point.

EDITED because caps matter.

This post has been edited by Regina: Nov 19, 2004 @ 11:51 pm.

[firestarter]

Arab speakers: When Sayid is hanging upside down, he's murmuring in Arabic. I heard 'Mohammed,' does anyone know what else he said? Sounded like prayer.

And the Island itself was just gorgeous in this episode. Like the boys. They all must be thrilled they're filming in Hawaii.

[Squirrel_Monkey]

The episode was good. It wasn't the best, but it definitely didn't lower the average quality of the episodes.

Why couldn't the make-up guys dirty Rousseau's (Clouseau's) nails and teeth? Was the actress less than cooperative about it? I don't know why her surprisingly great hygiene bothered me, but it did. I suppose it was one of those moments where I was "taken out of the story".

[nigeltufnel]

I'm psyched that William Mapother is one of the redshirts, though, because he kicks ass (as anyone who saw IN THE BEDROOM can attest).

There's something about his face that I find incredibly creepy (I don't like his cousin, either, so maybe it's a family thing). But if I were in the middle of the jungle and the monster was on one side and Mr. Mapother on the other, I'd run right into the open arms of the monster.

[PauseButton]

Why couldn't the make-up guys dirty Rousseau's (Clouseau's) nails and teeth? Was the actress less than cooperative about it? I don't know why her surprisingly great hygiene bothered me, but it did. I suppose it was one of those moments where I was "taken out of the story".

Thank You!! I thought her teeth looked way too Rembrandt to be that clean without some kind of major dental overhaul after 16 years. I want to know who her dentist is, so I can get my friggin' enamel that white.

That island IS magic. Did Sun travel back in time to give her gum massages with aloe?

Here is my take on the "voices" at the end of the ep with Sayid looking wild:

What did she inject him with? I think it was a psychotropic drug on time delay. It was the proverbial "cigarette to a fuse" scheme. They were cool when they had the guns pointed at each other, but when she let him go, he got all skeered. An adrenaline crash?

edited because there is a difference between "an" and "a"

This post has been edited by PauseButton: Nov 20, 2004 @ 1:52 am.

[Strikes]

Some further thoughts after rewatching the episode:
*During the interrogation, Rousseau clearly states: " I know *what* you are"...and later, when Sayeed asks about other people being on the island, she refers to hearing voices...but those voices apparently don't refer to "the others" whom she accuses of being "carriers." And referring to the other members of her part: "They were already LOST." (The reason for the Show's title ?) At first I was thinking Tommy Knockers because of the voices, but the Tommy Knockers weren't infected....what if instead, the show's inspiration is The Thing, with Danielle in the MacReady (Played by Kurt Russell) role ? Would explain why she's afraid of the "infected" being rescued, why she referred to Sayeed as "what" and not "who"...still wouldn't explain the monster or the voices though.
*Flashbacks have been good to great so far, but overuse isn't far away. Until Confidence Man-Solitary, the proportion of real time action/flashback was way out of whack. Jack finding water/his father's coffin, Sun/Jin/Michael fighting over the watch, Charlie's withdrawal, the golf outing, with the attendant flashbacks were GREAT for characterization, and for individual characters, but in terms of the greater plot, they're basically worthless. Now, we're still in the set up period where getting a good feel/read on the characters is paramount...but unless the plot is moved forward significantly, flashback central is going to become a tedious morass (just like the musical montages).
*Kate needs to stop being a *validation* character. This is almost the only reason why her scenes with Jack are such duds. Jack does something ?...here comes Kate, running in like that 10 year old at 6 flags, Brother Kwa describes so aptly. Jack is playing Golf ? Here comes Kate to validate Jack. The problem ? This does absolutely nothing for her character. When Kate is placed in scenes where the character is pro-active, she actually ranges from competent to pretty good. Her scenes with Sawyer work *because* they tell us something about HER. Except for the 1-2-3-3-4-5 and "accidents happens with torture" scenes, not a single one of her scenes with Jack tell us anything about her. This is entirely to the writers's discredit.
* "Sawyer brought the torture on himself and Jack and Sayeed have nothing to feel sorry for"....I'm sure that's what OJ tells himself before going to sleep at night. Thankfully, neither Kate nor Sayeed share that POV. Kate rubbing it in Jack's face (if only for continuity purposes) was one of the high points of Solitary. And going back to Confidence man, it should be noted that the inhaler situation gave both Jack and Sayeed the perfect excuse to get some pay back against the irritating asshat. This is especially clear when Sayeed goes back to stab Sawyer. It's not about the inhalers, it's about getting whacked in the jungle. So, the inhalers may have been the official *excuse*, but the respective motives of Saint Jack and Holy Sayeed for torturing Sawyer should be examined as closely as the motives of Fauxyer for withholding info about the inhaler.
To Sayeed's credit, his departure appears to be a clear sign of remorse for his foul deeds. We still haven't seen any remorse for his other acts for torture, but then his flashback appears only half-complete.
*I'm still in the "Locke" whacked Sayeed camp...his explanation was too convienent...BUT!...the assumption that Sayeed got whacked for nefarious purposes is not necessarily warranted. The attacker could have killed Sayeed while he was unconscious, but didn't. Further, if the source of the transmission is controlled by the "others" as Danielle intimated, finding it might be very dangerous. So whoever knocked out Sayeed might well have been trying to save the survivors...just something to think about.

[Zycron]

Perhaps she actually HAD tortured her shipmates and then killed them, although she couldn't exactly torture one while the others waited around. Maybe her torturing Sayid had to do with determining if he was “infected.”

That was my impression as well. She had her very own torture chamber set up and seemed quite skilled and methodical in her approach - electro-shock torture equipment, hypo-dermic needles filled with sedatives, multi-lingual interrogation, etc. Obviously, she had done this before. I think she trapped and tortured "The Others" to determine if they were infected and to find out information about Alex.

And she admitted she had killed the ones who were "infected", including her own husband. Now either she felt those were mercy killings in a sense or she is a mass murderer.

Further, if the source of the transmission is controlled by the "others" as Danielle intimated, finding it might be very dangerous.

Yes, but I wonder why? Because they seem to share the same goal. Danielle's parting words to Sayid were, "Watch those who want to be rescued, leave the island, watch them very closely", which means that "The Others" or the "infected" ones want to be rescued. Danielle, as a scientist, probably wanted to stop them to contain this "virus" or whatever it is they are carrying. From the sounds of it, Alex joined "The Others" and also wants to get off the island.

So, actually, in a roundabout way, Danielle and Locke are both on the same side because they want to remain on the island, although for different reasons. And "The Others" and the castaways all want to leave. Obviously, the person who whacked Sayid wants to stay so it was not one of "the Others". Unless, they thought all his triangulation devices were somehow interferring with their own transmission.

[Nikki125]

I think it makes perfect sense that he reverted to his old behavior. We’re not sure when the last time he tortured someone was (perhaps 7 years ago with the guy before Nadia), but it’s a good character arc move to put a person in a different situation and see if he makes the same decisions.

It would make more sense to me if Sayid went back to his former ways if the torturing of the last person before Sawyer happened a few months or even a year prior to the crash, but 7 years? He hasn’t learned from his past mistakes during those 7 years? I know there is still a lot to his story that we don’t know and I hope that this is addressed in the future.

I see contrition within Sayid.

Because I didn’t explain why I saw no real remorse from Sayid in my original post and because serendipity (Hey serendipity!) explained what my thinking was so well, I will just quote what she said:

The show didn't do a good job of presenting it that way. It looked all too easy for him to fall back into, as if he'd just been waiting for the opportunity, and I haven't really bought any of the half-hearted remorse he's since shown. Unless they deal with this issue better in subsequent eps, I'm counting it a rotten egg of a plot line.

As for the remorse, I still contend the show hasn't portrayed it well. It was handled in such a throw-away fashion on the beach with Kate that, I guess someone in the room was talking or something, and I didn't even pick up on it at all. Then it was given only an easily-missed throw-away line again in this last ep. We do see him feeling angst-tastic over Nadia, but we haven't been given any scenes (and we know Naveen could do them UP, now!) of him feeling shaken to the core and sickened with himself at the fact that, even after all these years, he so easily reverted to such inhumane tactics.

Like I said before, I do know where the writers were going with the Sayid storyline and what they were trying to say but it just didn’t work for me. I also think the line he said at the end of Confidence Man before he went on his little quest played in my mind during this episode. When he referred to himself as “the only one I trust”, my thinking was the same as many who said that he should be the last person on the island that he trusted at that moment. To me, it was almost as if he was saying that he couldn’t trust anyone else on the island because they might make him lose it and then he would be forced to torture someone again. This is how I heard what he said.

We already got a glimpse at what Sayid was capable of when he handcuffed Jin to the wreckage in the sun until he was ready to talk. Granted, Jin had done something very wrong, but tying someone up and leaving them in the heat until they are ready to talk is a form of torture. What is going to stop Sayid from resorting to torture again in the future? If this episode was supposed to assure the audience that he is confronting and conquering his demons, then they did a really shoddy job IMO.

I am not saying that Sayid should flagellate himself to show how remorseful he is about torturing people, but I do believe that what he has done to, not only Sawyer, but to the countless others he tortured in Iraq, should be addressed and I think he should be more contrite over the things he has done.

Oh, and, btw, that was a hell of a lot more then Jack apparently felt. Remember, Jack refused to apologize at all.

Actually, Jack did feel remorse over his role in the torture. Not only was he conflicted about the fact that he allowed Sayid to torture Sawyer, he stopped Sayid more than once during the torture and even helped Sawyer after he was stabbed.

Sawyer's life wasn't threatened.

Really?? Seems to me that if Sayid and Sawyer had tumbled a little differently, he would have got stabbed in the stomach or the heart. Fortunately for Sawyer, he only got it in the arm. And also, the only thing that saved Sawyer from being killed (and I do believe Sayid was hell-bent on killing Sawyer at that moment) was the fact that he freed himself from that tree.

Shannon's was. Withholding information about her medicine was tantamount to torturing her.

As others have already stated in the CM thread, there could have been a better way to handle that situation without resorting to torture.

Oh, and why is no one complaining about Danielle's appalling lack of "remorse" for torturing Sayid.

I was bothered by that torture scene and I found it hard to watch. As far as her showing remorse, unlike Sayid, she didn't seem to have complete control over her mental faculties so I don't know how capable she was of feeling remorse.

This post has been edited by Nikki125: Nov 20, 2004 @ 7:34 pm.

[Sheep]

Really?? Seems to me that if Sayid and Sawyer had tumbled a little differently, he would have got stabbed in the stomach or the heart. Fortunately for Sawyer, he only got it in the arm.

Yeah... doing barrel rolls with a hunting knife is a Bad Idea.

[peeayebee]

Oh, and, btw, that was a hell of a lot more then Jack apparently felt. Remember, Jack refused to apologize at all.

Actually, Jack did feel remorse over his role in the torture. Not only was he conflicted about the fact that he allowed Sayid to torture Sawyer, he stopped Sayid more than once during the torture and even helped Sawyer after he was stabbed.

I believe that Jack always hated condoning the torture, but in this ep he simply tells Kate, "It was a mistake." It's like he wants everyone to just forget about it: "Hey, it happened. Mistakes happen. Let's move on." I think the show is portraying Sayid as more honest about his personal responsibility, even though it is greater than Jack's.

This post has been edited by peeayebee: Nov 20, 2004 @ 8:44 am.

[JodithGrace]

Yes, but I wonder why? Because they seem to share the same goal. Danielle's parting words to Sayid were, "Watch those who want to be rescued, leave the island, watch them very closely", which means that "

But actually, that isn't what she said. I just rewatched the episode last night, and what Danielle says to Sayid, as he is leaving is, (though this is not a word for word quote) "these people that you are so anxious to get back to..watch them closely." I don't recall her differentiating the people who want to remain on the island from those who want to leave, at any point in the episode. Is there a quote to support this?

[Slashgirl]

Yet another great episode! If TIIC (The Idiots In Charge) think that a Bachelor ep's a suitable substitute for Lost, then they're in for a rude awakening. My thoughts:

*As he's proven in The English Patient, Kama Sutra & especially in Lost, Naveen Andrews can act as good as he looks. As Sayid, NA has taken what could've been a one-dimensional stereotype & given him strength, depth & even compassion, despite his flaws. The scenes with Nadia & Danielle, aka CrazyFrenchChick, are prime examples. When Sayid was the captor, he was intimidating at some times, noble in others, especially when he killed his superior, shot himself & deserted the army just to protect a woman from his past he not only barely knew, as it turned out, she was someone he didn't like, at first, anyway. When Sayid interrogated strangers in the past, it was much easier for him to be objective than when he had to question someone he knew, hence the change of heart. Despite the apparent pointlessness of helping Nadia, Sayid's willingness to take that chance was brave, IMO. It might not have totally redemmed Sayid, but it's a big step in the right direction. OTOH, when Sayid was captured, besides getting a taste of his own medicine, he got a chance to take a long, hard look at his past mistakes & their consequences. Likewise, Sayid forced CFC to confront losing her family, which led to, or worsened, her batshit craziness. That said, I'm part of the DanielleRousseauFanClub, too. Hope we see more of her, psychosis & all.

*Re Michael, while he was clever to come up with the aquaduct, he was back on stupid pills re his eventual treatment of Walt. I'll just chalk that up to too much of one kind of sun (the one in the sky) & not enough of the other. While Michael apologized for one mistake, his promptly making another made Walt easy pickings for Locke, whose teaching Walt to play with knives was clearly over-stepping his bounds. News flash, Locke: Michael is Walt's father, not you & the sooner that you, Michael & Walt remember that, the better.

*One more for the HurleyLoveTrain! Is he a comedy gold mine or what? That golf course was a stroke of genius, no pun intended. The scene when Charlie tried to help Hurley improve his golf swing was hilarious. As long as Charlie and/or Hurley has at least one funny thing to say or do, Lost will be worth watching.

*OTOH, Fauxyer still continues to annoy me. For one thing, he literally & figuratively asked to be tortured last week. If Kate hooks up with him on a permanent basis, it'll endanger any semblance of respect I have for her, if not destroy it altogether. To paraphrase Bugsy, IMO, Fauxyer's "Just another good-looking, smooth-talking, charm-oozing, fuck-happy fella with nothing to offer but some dialogue," and not particularly clever dialogue, at that. Fauxer's joke about golf-playing doctors was old when I was a kid. And who didn't predict that Fauxyer would show up at the golf game & bet against Jack? So Fauxyer showed up after all. Yay him. Whatever.

*Count me among those not bothered by the flashbacks because when they work, they lead to great episodes like Walkabout, White Rabbit, House of the Rising Sun & Solitary, this week's episode.

*Despite his not wanting the job at first, Jack definitely seems to be adjusting to his role as leader quite well. He listens to his fellow castaways' ideas, whether he agrees with them or not. When it comes to the castaways' medical needs, Jack treats them all with equal dignity, from the chronically ill to the hypochondriacs.

I actually kind of liked Jack this week. Maybe because for once he wasn't taking himself so SERIOUSLY.

Well, if I had survived a plane crash & been practically forced to be the leader of the other castways while dealing with the death of my alcoholic & emotionally abusive father, which happened days before, I wouldn't exactly be a barrel of laughs, either.

Has Jack started to develope a personality?
-----------------------------------------------------
Yes, and he's suddenly become incredibly hot as a result.

"Suddenly?" Jack/MF's always been hot, IMO. Not to sound snarky, but where have y'all been?

Hey now, I called [Jack] first, he's mineallmine...

Actually, I did, when I started the Jack thread, so get in line....;)

[Alexandria Bay]

Like others here, I was disappointed with the plot. Once I saw the beginning with Nadia I knew exactly how it would go but kept hoping for a surprise at the end, like Locke and Sawyer's stories. But no, he doesn't kill her, she doesn't shoot him or turn him in, it wasn't a set-up to test his loyalty...it was just that he let her go. Whoop di do.

I finally figured out what bugs me about Sawyer--his weird sloping shoulders. It's like he has a deformity. Of course, if he *does* then I will burn in hell for saying so, but otherwise: dude, square your shoulders. As I heard on Joan of Arcadia, direct from GayGod, "[God] didn't create you to slouch."