» Canon or Fanon? Time for a reality check. Options

[elzed]

Okay, I for one am getting hopelessly lost about what's real or not. After reading so much excellent and diverse fanfic, where ideas get picked up (or simultaneously generated) by more than one writer, I don't know where I'm at anymore. And judging by the number of times queries like this pop up, I'm not the only one. So I thought we could try to gather all of them under one roof, so to speak.

My initial query, to get the ball rolling, is about Theresa's family: I want to check whether we've ever been told her mother's first name. I'm almost sure we haven't but several fics have her as Eva (of course, it could be that they are all by the same author but I don't think so). I know we don't know her surname.

Also, when do we find out Turo's in jail (and even as I write this a doubt assails me as to whether it's canon or fanon, but I think canon, aargh), and do we know for what, or how long?

[wesfan01]

Theresa's mom's name is Eva. I believe we found out both that and the fact that Arturo was in jail in The Nana.

[elzed]

Thanks, Wesfan01 - she has different names in a couple of other fics (possibly written or started before the Nana?) which had me confused.

[60sChic]

Consider me onboard with this thread, elzed , like there was ever any doubt. I agree that "The Nana" is where we learned about Arturo. I'd have to check, but I think Eddie said it to Ryan at the engagement party. There was never a mention as to why.

My main confusion with canon/fanon is how so many fics give the characters differing personalities from canon. Ex: I have to step back after some portrayals of Ryan. IMHO I see him much stronger emotionally on the show than in fic-- I have probably mentionned this on the Ryan thread, and I think I may be just as guilty of doing this as anyone else.

Some stories, esp. w/ Seth, are so dead-on in perfect voice, that the authors should be writing for the show.

"Talk amongst yourselves."

[wesfan01]

I'd have to check, but I think Eddie said it to Ryan at the engagement party. There was never a mention as to why.

He's trying to make amends with Ryan because they're the only 2 left of "the crew".

Some stories, esp. w/ Seth, are so dead-on in perfect voice, that the authors should be writing for the show.

I agree that some authors have Seth dead on, but I think some portray him as much more self-centered and destructive than he really is. It seems like in a lot of fic he resents Ryan and brings more trouble than goodness into his life.

Maybe I'm just sensitive to it because I'm a fan of the Seth/Ryan friendship.

[elzed]

I think some portray him as much more self-centered and destructive than he really is.

Yes, Wesfan, ITA about that. And while it canm work in some contexts, I too find it disturbing because Seth is a nice guy, dammit. And no more selfish than any teenage only child of rich and doting parents with a history of beign bullied would be. IMHO, that is

IMHO I see him much stronger emotionally on the show than in fic

Well, needless to say, 60sChic, MHO too. And while I see why it's useful for those writers who like exploring the angst (and who do it so well), sometimes it annoys me that he falls apart so readily when in the show he takes a lot into his stride. Then again, considering the stuff he gets put through in fanfic, maybe it's not so surprising. Not to mention the extremely abusive past he gets saddled with. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, there is no actual documented history of abuse in his past. Other than what he shares with us about getting beaten up at Christmas (and the lovely scene with darling AJ). And yes, I know it's bad enough, but hey, some of you guys make it so much worse...

[Kareny]

Ooh! Oooh! Theresa's family! My favorite!

Ahem.

We know that Arturo is in jail because Theresa told Ryan when they were walking on the beach, I think. I distinctly remember a comment to the effect that with her brother in jail and her mother unemployed, she had to stay in Chino and look out for her family.

I think Eva's name came from sides for "The Homecoming", actually. One of the kitchen scenes was released as a casting side several months ago and listed her as Eva. I'm not sure that the name has ever been said on the show. Their family definitely has no last name established.

Hmm, I need to go write.

This post has been edited by Kareny: Aug 28, 2004 @ 12:46 pm.

[TaterTots0370]

I agree that some authors have Seth dead on, but I think some portray him as much more self-centered and destructive than he really is. It seems like in a lot of fic he resents Ryan and brings more trouble than goodness into his life.

Maybe I'm just sensitive to it because I'm a fan of the Seth/Ryan friendship.

Worrrrrd. I feel like in some fics, there's a lot of Seth sort of picking fights with Ryan, as if he's a spoiled brat, and Ryan's this perfect Superman character. I think, both characters have their faults, and while it's fun and good to read one of them making mistakes or whatever, sometimes it's really uneven in the Seth/Ryan friendship, which, like how I am with Seth/Summer, I hate when it's hurt! But I guess that's the fun of fan fic!

[GotSand]

I have to agree on the unbalanced Seth/Ryan friendship. I get annoyed when I'm reading something where Seth is the selfish and childish brat who everyone is annoyed with for some reason or other while they are all subsequently bowing before Ryan and his amazing and pure goodness. It usually turns me off from a story. Ryan isn't the Amazing Savior Perfect Boy and Seth isn't the Bratty Jealous Rude Spoiled Child. I've seen it in other fandoms, and I expected it would happen in The OC. Ryan is the "main" character, the show centers around him, he'll always be the good guy. It does fit in well at times, but other times it just bothers me. Seth is a good guy.

And while it canm work in some contexts, I too find it disturbing because Seth is a nice guy, dammit.

Word, word, and word.

[NaijaChiqa]

IMHO I see him much stronger emotionally on the show than in fic--

I think this is because in fics, you can explore the character meaning, what you see isn't all you get. Oftentimes, the strong, mature thing is just a front to hide a weak, scared person. At least, that's the stereotype.

Personally, when I write Seth and Ryan I have no idea if I characterize them correctly or not. I just make Seth say what he feels and Ryan only think it.

I think some portray him as much more self-centered and destructive than he really is

See, this is sort of canon because of his overreaction in the finale. Even if he was only sailing to Catalina, that plank of wood couldn't have been too safe.

Ryan isn't the Amazing Savior Perfect Boy an

See, it hard not to think of him this way because according to the show, Ryan always tries to save people, even putting himself in danger for it.

[wesfan01]

See, this is sort of canon because of his overreaction in the finale

I never really found his behavior in the finale all that appalling, certainly not self-centered or destructive. I've said it before, but in the course of the ep he made numerous attempts to help Ryan in a constructive way, moreso than any other character, including his parents. By the end he felt helpless and overwhelmed so he ran. I'm not sure the argument couldn't be made that Ryan and other characters haven't done the same at various times.

I also never really thought his leaving was that big of a crime. He's an accomplished sailor, and his parents have both the means and the knowledge to bring him home at any time. If he's been gone all summer it's because they've allowed it. IMO he didn't run away in the legitimate sense.

It seems to me Ryan’s behavior was significantly more destructive, essentially sacrificing his future without considering a multitude of other options. There was very little doubt that without parental interference Seth would eventually return and would life return to normal. Ryan, on the other hand, is signing up for lifelong struggle unnecessarily.

I just don’t understand how Seth is the ***hole in this scenario.

[elzed]

I just don’t understand how Seth is the ***hole in this scenario.

Well of course, we don't actually know what's written in the note... But I agree that in his reaction to Ryan's departure he behaves more like a hurt kid than like a destructive one. Selfish, sure, but he's a teenager and teenagers are often selfish, especially when they 're upset. I also think he knows his parents can (and will) track him down pretty damn quick - ie before he gets into real trouble.

All in all I'm not sure, NaijaChiqa that it adds up to much more than emotional overreaction to losing Ryan. I don't think it justifies (in the strictly canon sense of the word) making him out to be a complete self-centred bastard. From a fanfic point of view, on the other hand, licence is good and makes for some great stories! I just think there may turn out ot be a discrepancy when the show returns between what we've got used to and the real characters.

[NaijaChiqa]

also never really thought his leaving was that big of a crime

His refusal to say goodbye to Ryan was a little childish and assholy. Sure, I saw his POV but it was still kinda wrong. Then he ran off without even thinking of his parents. So he left notes, but notes indicate he planned to leave for longer than 2 hours. That was an assholy thing to do to them.

[60sChic]

From a fanfic point of view, on the other hand, licence is good and makes for some great stories! I just think there may turn out ot be a discrepancy when the show returns between what we've got used to and the real characters.

Amen to that. The question is, are we all going to be disappointed when new canon doesn't meet the expectations we have set in fic.

I just don’t understand how Seth is the ***hole in this scenario.

This is where I get confused between reality and fantasy. Perhaps some viewers felt that about Seth. I've never been on the Seth thread. But I think it was in fanfic this summer where Seth was portrayed as the 'bad brother,' not in canon.

I don't see the behavior of either character in Ties to be inherently good or bad. IMO both are misguided. We have no idea what Seth & Ryan actually think about what they have done yet. That will be told to us in new canon. Does this make any sense? So many explainations are out there in fanfic and our impressions of the situation are being colored by them. If Josh ever read all the stuff relating to the boys' departures, I think he'd get confused, too.

[elzed]

His refusal to say goodbye to Ryan was a little childish and assholy.

Exactly, NaijaChiqa, childish. And god knows children can behave like selfish little buggers sometimes (totally unlike adults, of course), without thinking of the consequences of their actions on the ones around them. Seth looked like a child to me when he was on his bed silent, trying not to cry, pretending he had nothing to say to Ryan and didn't care. What I mean is that yes, his behaviour was pretty bad, but it was a) understandable in the circumstances b) not entirely inappopriate for his age c) not a complete change of character.