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Posted by: Demian May 15, 2007 @ 1:52 pm

From The CW:

In other news, you might want to invole yourself with this:

That's...vague. Also: The episode's http://www.cwtv.com/video?vid=trl-sn and the http://www.cwtv.com/video?vid=dc-supernatural.

Robert Singer previously directed "Phantom Traveler," "Salvation," "Bloodlust," "Croacrappy!" and the first half of this season's finale.

The Kripkeeper has given us the pilot, "Wendigo," "Home," "Shadow," "Devil's Trap," and "In My Time Of Dying."

And in trivia news, http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/articles/content/a487/. To the very same damn night of the week.

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 8:58 pm

Am I the first? I don't want to be first.

Posted by: Lemmypie May 17, 2007 @ 8:58 pm

STEP UP K!!!!!

Posted by: Demian May 17, 2007 @ 8:59 pm

Well, I don't have much good to say about it, so maybe you should be the first. Unless you don't have much good to say about it, either.

Posted by: getbusychild May 17, 2007 @ 8:59 pm

OK, that was....interesting.

Posted by: alchemy May 17, 2007 @ 8:59 pm

I'll be first, but I for serious won't be best.


-Dean’s just hugging everyone tonight, isn’t he?

-Let’s beat the “good people die, I get to live, why me” dean horse some more, supernatural

-Evil Churches!

-Who has a cemetery just for cowboys?

-Evil!Fake!Metallicar! if it turns into an evil Barbie, Anteka gets to sue.

-Gore mixed with freckles, rock it, Padalecki

-This show sure likes to really really lay out what’s gonna happen, eh?



That's all I got. I will try better later.

Posted by: Demian May 17, 2007 @ 8:59 pm

At least we know what the arc for Season Three is going to be.

Posted by: liberateourtime May 17, 2007 @ 8:59 pm

Um. To be honest, I wasn't that thrilled. Bored even, a little. I kept expecting some badass twist ending ala the Impala crash last year, but nope.

It had it's moments, but still. Meh.

Posted by: Raksha May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

I knew it! I've been saying for years that Wyoming is the epicenter of evil and the gate to hell! I have been vindicated!

Too bad they didn't actually show Wyoming. Wherever they were, the grass was alive and there were trees. In reality, the State Tree of Wyoming is the telephone pole.

Anyway, this was a pretty satisfying tying up of the Ceiling Demon story line. The arc they've set up for next year is really interesting and anxiety-inducing. I wonder if they already know how they're going to get Dean out of it. There should be lots of delicious man-angst to be had.

Posted by: Kimit May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

...and hiatus starts now. Sigh.

Definitely not as good as last year's, but I still liked it. But it's very hard for this show to disappoint me.

Posted by: ShannenB2000 May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

*claps* Brilliant! That's all I can really say. I have to watch it again to put together something more than that! But unlike Smallville's finale, this one actually went somewhere instead of just piling on the cliffhangers in hopes of distracting from the fact that there was no real story going on.

Posted by: VeronicaSpeedwell May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

What the hell was that?

Posted by: Brinny May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

I-I...there's no words.

Kripke, you fucking bastard. Jeez.

Edit: When they kept mentioning Wyoming, did anyone else get flashbacks to that American Express commerical? "Oh yes! Wyoming!"

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

Hopefully the rose-coloured glasses brigade will make some nice noises. That was terrible.

Posted by: PatricePitrelli May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

OOooohhh boy. Okay. Herew goes. What I can get out.

Oh Dean!

Darling Sammy!

I'm glad they didn't drag out the whole "Dean's not telling Sam about the soul thing." Now Sam HAS to tell Dean about the whole "Mother knew the demon thing."

About that deal, Bobby said (pretty much) everything. Stupid, stupid foolish little grief stricken boy. Never make deals with devils! Just don't!

I was really apprehensive about if Dean selling hsi soul but I think they pulled it off.

Now, for the hiatus.

I loved it. But maybe that's becuase I've barely seen season one, just select episodes that got good recapper grades, so I'm still just beginning to get invested.

Posted by: Whiteotter May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

Huh!

I... wanted to like that more than I think I did.

Frederic Lane, I'll miss you!

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

Who else screamed "And you're smack in the middle of it!" at the tv after Bobby said the war was here?

You know Kripke, you fuck, couldn't you just have one finale without setting up next year's finale as well? Will nothing please you, man?

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 9:01 pm

That was...unimaginative to say the least.

Posted by: MissRavenwood May 17, 2007 @ 9:01 pm

Well...that...sucked. Can we please have some character development for Dean? I feel like they are hitting a one note drum - Dean will sacrifice everything for ... anyone. SIGH. Hopefully season 3 (yippeeee!!) will also involve some self esteem. Repeat after me Dean - "I am a worthwhile character....."

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 9:01 pm

Strangely not...as exciting as I hoped. Still had the fangirl Ohm'God! moments, but....

Dang, totally don't know what to say.

I will say that I think John's lack of presence in the episode(s) he had originally been planned for made his appearance here lack some of the resonance I expected.

I need to think about this one.

Posted by: Lameduck May 17, 2007 @ 9:01 pm

In the THEN part when they had the part about "crossroads are where pacts are made", did anyone else yell out "OH CRAP!" ?

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 9:01 pm

Aw hell. That is NOT the route I wanted them to go. Now it's going to be another year of angst and "you can't save me", "yes I will" variety. GRRRRR.

It was a big-ass reset button. The only redeeming value was that everything talked about here was brought up in some fashion. And I really can't even call it that, because of the industrial-sized hammer used to pound in those points.

Damn, damn, damn. And I so wanted to enjoy this one.

Posted by: malibudream May 17, 2007 @ 9:02 pm

Well, okay. I am mad. MAD!!! First of all, what questions got answered? Second, Dean gets to live for a YEAR??? When he made that deal I said "Kripke you have 45 minutes to fix that shit!" Did Kripke fix it? No.

And what was with the music at the end? THESE ARE NOT HAPPY TIMES, KRIPKE! I am a Sammygirl, but I need Dean too! I love the boys together. Not that I think Dean will actually die, but the situation made me mad.

And I forgot what else I was going to say. I did cry, though. I love these brothers and their chemistry and the way they care for each other. And I am happy about them playing Kansas again. But SHIT, SON. TOO much angst. Just too much.

*grumble grumble grumble*

*SAD FACE*

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

I thought of something happifying!

When the Yellow-Eyed Demon mentioned Jake's betrayal, I had a Wash flashback.

"Curse your sudden, yet inevitable betrayal!" I would've paid good money to hear that.

Posted by: shadowfax220 May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

I thought it was just awesome! I love that Sammy knows about Dean's deal. I would have been very upset if he was kept in the dark.

Posted by: CharlieNancy May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Feeling a bit underwhelmed right now.

Posted by: Demian May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Well, that and the fact that they didn't give him any fucking lines.

And wrestling a cloud of CGI smoke? Poor Jeffy.

Posted by: Allathlete12 May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Ack. Anyone got some duct tape so I can put my heart back together?
Oh, he cries soooooo good...
Nooo! Don't make the deal!
AHHHHH!! JUST SHOOT HIM!!! WHY ARE YOU WASTING TIME TALKING TO THE GUY WHO KILLED YOU!!!
Portal to hell? Buffy flashback, anyone?
He's monologuing! Kill him now!
God damn! YED is extra-crispy! *happy cackles*
Awww...now Shut Up Daddy is the happy kind of dead.
So are they just going to keep trading life debts for the rest of the run? That would get repetitive really quick.
"We got work to do." Hell. Yes.

Oof. I'm worn out.

Posted by: JadisZ2 May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Well, that was rather lame.

Posted by: jediknight May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Dean killed the Yellow Eyed Demon. It wasn't Sam, or John. In the end it was the Winchester the Celine Demon didn't really give much thought to. Everything about Sam being the special one and his powers, goes down. Because in the end Dean did what no one else could.

And in this episode they set it up just in case next season is the end. I do enjoy that they set up next season's main arc along with going after the demons that escaped, already. Bravo Kripke.

I also loved the callback to the pilot with the last shot. That was damn similar to the ending of the pilot. Good episode, and good way to end the season.

One last thing, "Carry On Wayward Son" just flat out ruled.

Posted by: MissRavenwood May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Raksha - we used to play the license plate game on loooonnggggg car trips and we enver got Wyoming. Our working theory was that Wyoming just wouldn't let them leave....who knew we were right?

Posted by: Greeneyedgal May 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

Funny that's what HelloClarice and I said.

Gee, we know the arc line.

I don't think it was all that bad - it wasn't the BEST in the world, but dude - Bobby kicks so much ass I'm in love.

And I'm sorry but Fredric Lane as the demon rocked. I'm gonna miss him. He got a lot of the best lines.

The crappy CGI with the boys and John at the end irked me. That really hurt after all the special effects, they couldn't get the CGI right?

And I did like the parallel with the pilot.

Posted by: Francie Nolan May 17, 2007 @ 9:04 pm

Holy Crap, talk about a bounty of riches!

We finally got our big sappy heart to heart. And Sam finally admitted how much he depends on Dean.

Bobby and Ellen together in a scene being awesome.

Of course, when wasn’t Bobby awesome this episode?

THE HUG!!!!!!!

And Dean being so gut wrenching in his complete devotion.

Bobby calling Dean on his complete and utter fuckedupedness.

The big overarching plot for next year: sending the demons back and Sammy finding a way to save his big brother.

Also, was Sam brought back “right”?

One thing that did bug me, why the hell didn’t Sam mention the connection between Mary and the Demon?

And how sad am I that we won't see the Demon again. I haven't seen such awesome benevolant menace since the Mayor on Buffy.

Posted by: Sister Spooky May 17, 2007 @ 9:04 pm

Well, Dean saved Sammy, saved his Dad, killed the demon, and SACRIFICED HIS SOUL! Only a year to live?!?!?! That's just crap.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 9:04 pm

Yeah like, what a total waste this season was.

Posted by: Eris13 May 17, 2007 @ 9:04 pm

I want to be excited about it, but.... what the hell? I liked some parts of it, but I was really hoping that they wouldn't have Dean sell his soul for Sam. I just don't know what to say.

Posted by: getbusychild May 17, 2007 @ 9:04 pm

Usually I can find the good in any episode (yes, Bugs and No Exit) but that was.....not good. Maybe I was too spoiled.

I hate to say it. I think it sucked.

Posted by: gatorpez May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

There was no other more original/creative way to bring Sam back from the dead, Kripke? Dean had to sell his soul AND get only 1 year?

I do have to agree, at least Dean isn't keeping a big stupid secret from Sam next season.

The boys rocked it with acting, but damn you, Kripke!

Posted by: grinlord May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

I loved that. LOVED it. It was intense. I noticed a lot of people here don't share that sentiment, which surprised me... I was completely floored.

Posted by: k1k2voyer May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

So do I get a T-shirt for being the FARTHEST away in the Sammy- re-animation pool?

Actually, I loved it, but disappoineted at the lack of cliffhanger- how stupid am I?

Will Sammy be like the Pet Sematary former residents??

I so thought that once YED was discharged from this earth, that John would turn around and beat the shit outta Dean for being so stupid!

Posted by: Big Mama G May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

That was the best episode I have ever seen. Why does everyone say it was unimaginative? Did anyone else anticipate Shut Up Daddy to come back or them to actually kill the damn demon at all? Please, that was a wonderful episode.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

Huh....well at least the Demon's dead. Thank God!

And there was some nice set up for next year. Who didn't know Dean would sell his soul in a heartbeat?

Still......not as great as I was hoping. Not bad, but.....

Posted by: Lameduck May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Posted by: QuicheSan May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

I didn't hate it but it seemed like less happened than what should have. Are you telling me a hellmouth can be shut simply by having two people push the door hard enough? Really?

That felt really anti-climactic but every one was in top form performance-wise but I don't think the story serviced them, more like the other way around.

A year, Dean? You stupid son-of-a-bitch. Worst deal ever! You almost don't deserve Sam's forgiveness for doing something so stupid.

Posted by: ScrappyTheOwl May 17, 2007 @ 9:05 pm

Dean killed Celine Demon! Wee! I got spoiled in a huge way before the finale and thank God it turned out to be a false one (some TV Guide blurb saying John was never really dead all year). And Sam finally wasting someone - woo hoo! Been waiting on that one for a while ...

And ... oh, Dean! Oh, baby, selling your soul? The fact that it's just a year makes me feel better, though -- no way Kripke's going to kill off Dean, so he'll get out of this within a year. (He has to *nods to self enthusiastically*.)

This episode did feel like it set up the arcs for next season really hard, but damned if they don't sound like good ones to me. I really enjoyed this finale. Not as much as last year's, but God, it was beautiful. And killed me ten times over ...

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 9:06 pm

I KNEW they were going to use that song for the opening! I don't know how, but earlier this week I remember thinking randomly to myself that they were definitely using that song for this episode. AND I predicted Dean's "That was for our mom...you son of a bitch" down to the syllable.

Shit. Does this mean I'm a psychic child too?

Onward! A CW has no business making me cry like that. Fucking A.

That would have worked really well as a series finale (and I'm SO glad it's not) while it still sets up a fantastic new arc. Holy shit, Dean. Holy shit. Also Sam. This is, without a doubt, the best relationship on television right now. Dean broke my heart and then Sam broke it again and holy fuck. And shutup Celine, that is Sam, whole and true.

Samuel Colt, on the other hand, must be pissed. I hope they repair that railroad, at least.

Every time Jake came on screen, I was yelling out "you son of a bitch!" Does that make me a bad person? Sam was scary when he was killing him but at the same time, he totally had a right. Bastard knifed him in the back.
Bobby broke my heart. Ellen was in top form tonight (weird that there wasn't even a mention of Jo though - why?). Aaand Shut Up Daddy back with the heroics! I knew he'd be back this episode and I still shrieked happily. Wasn't too fond by the Touched by an Angel moment that followed, but I'll take it. So I guess everything that was released stays out and Shut Up Daddy goes wherever? Interesting. Also interesting that the show firmly establishes Hell but nothing else about the rest of the Great Beyond. I like that it's all left purposely vague, it's just a bit of a double standard that comes with these shows.

The episode from Ellen's appearance on had a very Buffy-esque gearing up for battle atmosphere (see: Graduation Pt. I & II) and I really liked that. Some of the pacing felt a bit off (the opening act, but maybe that's because I already saw that in the CW website preview?) and the initial hell effects sucked but overall, a stellar episode. Did not disappoint and roll on Season 3!

Oh, and fuck you, Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki. My heart was already through the ringer on the Office today; I did not need more emotional stress. Hmph. We're not speaking for the rest of this second.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 9:06 pm

I like that the Ceiling Demon is dead. Of course, I like that Sammy is alive. I LOVED that John crawled out of hell and helped defeat the Ceiling Demon and had his goodbye with the boys. John is in Heaven, dammit. proudly dons foil hat

As to everything else, I think I hated it. I'm not sure; I'm waiting for the shock to wear off.

I might be pretty sure I hated it, because I yelled "Fuck!" and "You just didn't fucking do that!" many, many times.

When I know for sure, I'll be sure to let you know.

Posted by: ciaoluna May 17, 2007 @ 9:06 pm

It's a good thing I fell down dead during the Talking to Sammy's Corpse scene, because as a cadaver I was unable to notice how incredibly predictable the rest of the episode was.

Still, we have: an actual hug with two living participants! And ambiguously bad-ass Sam! And Kripke gets to retain his testicles! And a plot hook for next year's season finale! So I call it a win. A grudging, slightly disappointing win, but I'll take what I can get.

Posted by: Boadiccea May 17, 2007 @ 9:06 pm

Well, thank you, Kripke; I should have learned by now that never to trust a showrunner not to screw it up. In addition to stomping on Dean's character and making his entire season 2 mantra about "dead things should stay dead" and how wrong it is to dump that kind of burden on someone so much hot air (the only thing you can say is that Dean at least tried to ensure that Sam wouldn't know and wouldn't have the same burden) (a) we get to spend season 3 watching season 2 redux, and (b) we find out that Kripke's idea of a major storyline for Dean is having Sam spend all next season fighting to save Dean while Dean is totally passive in the face of this because he can't do anything or Sam dies. Just like Sam's passivity in the face of the mytharc.


Amazing, isn't it, that we were able to come up with more inventive and interesting ideas than Kripke was.


And, gee, I guess in Sammy's case, dead things really should have stayed dead, judging from what he did to Jake. If killing Jake when Jake tried to kill him in Part 1 was a bad thing, what's ventilating him now--and blowing his brains out when Jake was no longer a threat--constitute?

Then again, since the special kids mytharc is over, Sam no longer has to be "pure," I suppose.



At least, if there was any question that Dean has absolutely no sense of self-worth, Bobby and the Demon just made it canon.

Posted by: Arania May 17, 2007 @ 9:06 pm

Wait, wait... was that a hug?

Posted by: Kimit May 17, 2007 @ 9:06 pm

The scene between Dean and Bobby after he found out what Dean did was really good. Great acting.

Posted by: Ophelia14 May 17, 2007 @ 9:07 pm

Well, at least SOMEBODY finally called Dean on his self-esteem issues. Thanks for being you, Bobby!

Okay, other than the moments of fangirlish squee that ensued, (HUG! FINALLY!) I am.... not totally underwhelmed. Just whelmed. If you know what I mean.

In other news... here's hoping they play out that Evil!Sam thing because that killing Jake bit was hardcore. Seriously. He came back wrong, people. I think, anyway.

Posted by: malibudream May 17, 2007 @ 9:07 pm

Yeah hoorayyy now we get role reversal with Dean being like "DESTINYYY" and Sam being all "I'LL SAVE YOUUU " cry cry cry. Maybe the episode was good and I was just bitter because I didn't like what they did. I will try again later. There appears to be mixed feelings with this finale. Good thing it wasn't a cliffhanger though.

Also, Sammy ain't right. I detect a malfunction in the SammySystem. I mean granted yes he was vengeful because Jake killed him but still. He creeped me out.

Posted by: BlueIris May 17, 2007 @ 9:08 pm

Me, I sighed, "Well, fuck."


Could have been worse. Instead of saying, "You have a year," she could have said, "You have until the end of next May sweeps."

That's the only way it could have been worse, though. Okay, they could have made it even worse by shooting Ellen, but that's as low as they could have gone. God, that was disappointing.

Posted by: Aredhel May 17, 2007 @ 9:08 pm

Well, as an episode, that sucked.

As raw material for fanfic, that rocked.

Posted by: Greeneyedgal May 17, 2007 @ 9:08 pm

Are you sure you weren't in my living room because I'm having the same feelings. It's the whole shock bit wearing off and the screaming of, "You fucking idiot!"

Posted by: ShannenB2000 May 17, 2007 @ 9:08 pm

Oh the hug...totally forgot about that! Now I know why Jensen just laughed when he was asked at Asylum if the boys would ever hug. I just thought he was being coy about the Live Dean/Dead Sammy kind of hug we saw in the trailer, but I guess not!

Posted by: abgrubb May 17, 2007 @ 9:09 pm

Well, it was lame and the pacing was shit and...oh God, this was supposed to redeem the season, dammit.

Posted by: Allathlete12 May 17, 2007 @ 9:09 pm

Why did nobody like it? Am I just naive and easily amused? I feel ashamed...
:-(

Posted by: gypsygal May 17, 2007 @ 9:09 pm

What about Mary? Was'nt there Something about Mary?

ETA............Hee.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 9:10 pm

Yes. Well......everyone got there wish. Dean's the center of some sort of arc. Look forward to a season of him doing absolutely nothing.

Posted by: shortpplfedup May 17, 2007 @ 9:10 pm

Bravo Supernatural. Way to have big brass ones. To pull off a total game-changer at the end of only the second season of what will at LEAST be 4, I'm sure, takes major cojones. In one ep they ended the mytharc, set up the whole of next season and delivered a knockout character ep, with enough questions left unanswered to keep the whole shebang rolling along. AND they brought back Daddy Shut Up, made Dean cry and gave us a hug. I LOVED IT!

Posted by: manticoraus May 17, 2007 @ 9:10 pm

Taking stock

The Hunter community is worse than decimated.

Yellow Eyes is dead, dead but since all those guys popped out his dad, big brother, ex-tranvestite lover he totally refuses to call and etc are able to take of the brilliant mastermind slack.

Sammy is not right, in complete contrast to what Crossroads promised in her premiere episode but Dean was stupid and didn't secure it.

Dean was stupid and has a year left and can't renege or Sam becomes rotting meat.

There was no point to the special kids, it seems, ANYONE could have put that damned colt into that damned hole and opened the door.

They're *still* wanted fugitives.

They have the Colt but no bullets and unless they find an alchemist no reloads are coming.

Ellen's alive as is Bobby and no one is possesed, apparently

Daddy Winchester in accordance to the gospel of Demian shut up and saved his boys and went on. Or at least looks like it I'm not putting illusion or fakeouts beyond the demons means or methods (especially if it takes the one bullet that could kill one of them off the table) and white light doesn't mean Daddy didn't go *back* to hell just the natural way.

So uhm can the devils leave the Devil trap or not 'cause if not just avoid that part of Wyoming. Though its likely the seals permenantly broken or something as Yellow Eyes could just show up.

That's all I got on the situation report back to the regulars

Posted by: grinlord May 17, 2007 @ 9:11 pm

Okay, it needs to be stated. Reasons this episode RULED THE WURLLLD!:

1) The Hug

2) The Ackting

3) Bobby sliding a shot of holy water across the table to Ellen.

4) Bobby and Ellen being generally kickass.

5) "That was for our mom, you son of a bitch."

6) Frederic Lane... you make scenery chewing so attractive! Damn, he absolutely rocked in this role.

7) Dean pushed Bobby! Dean pushed Bobby!

8) That part when Bobby starts yelling at Dean for selling his soul. Is Bobby ever not awesome.

9) It took like ten minutes for Bobby and Ellen to close the damn gates to hell.

10) The Jake storyline had me gripped.

11) The setup for next year.

12) Sam's little speech to Dean at the end of the episode. Damn right, Sam.

13) The part when Dean says "Let's get something to eat" and then there's a quick cut and their sitting at a table that's absolutely piled with fast food. It made me smile.

14) "We've got work to do." That was great.

So, basically, I loved it.

Posted by: efh May 17, 2007 @ 9:11 pm

Well, that was . . . bizzare.

Really not what I was expecting at all. But I guess we know what Dean's story arc for next year will be. Huh. I'm not crazy about that, I have a feeling that the "ZOMG Dean only has a year to live !!111!!!" is going to get old rather quickly. In fact, I think it already is a bit old to me. Yeah, I'm a bit puzzled at the moment, I think I'm going to have to think about this one a bit longer. I'm really surprised they actually killed off the YED, it seems odd to have a two-year story arc. Gah.

Bobby rocks, though I do wish he had caught on that Dean is that screwed in the head a bit earlier. And it was good to see Ellen.

Posted by: spazmo May 17, 2007 @ 9:12 pm

Well, the finale pretty much did what it had to do. Lots of good acting moments, some closure, and a thematic set-up for next season. Frankly, I can't believe this one's over, already.

Anyone else laugh at the hilariously "GUH?" look on Sam's face when he sits up after getting resurrected? Not to say that wouldn't be a natural reaction, but it was pretty damned funny....

Posted by: thinkcwik May 17, 2007 @ 9:12 pm

I was shocked that they recycled the same Kansas song from last season's finale. The song kicks ass, but damn, they couldn't have come up with another tune this year?

Posted by: kcblue86 May 17, 2007 @ 9:12 pm

Please tell me I wasn't the only one singing "You got blood on your face, you big disgrace, somebody better out you back into your place" after Sam shot Jake? And having Inigo Montoya flashbacks at "That was for our mother, you son of a bitch."

And did they bring John back and give him absolutely no dialogue? I'm not complaining, though. He was awesome.

A good ep, but kinda anti-climactic.

Posted by: Allathlete12 May 17, 2007 @ 9:12 pm

The Dean Angst is totally going to hold me throughout season three. I don't care what else they put in it.

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

I at least expected Dean or Sam to ask, "how about your daughter? Is she okay?" One throwaway line wouldn't have hurt.

Posted by: MizSurguri May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

At first when Dean asked for 10 years I was pissed, "don't do it Dean" I said, knowing "Supernatural" probably won't last that long. When she said "one year" I started laughing, "ah HA, now we have a mythology arc for season 3!" I mean CD's dead, the other kids are dead, we need something!

Loved hug #2 and Sammy wasn't even dead.

Loved that Bobby told Dean what everybody's been wanting to tell Dean since this season started.

I guess Dad could show up anywhere now since he's out of hell.

100% pure Sam? Well, he looked like Evil Sam when he killed Jake but Jake pissed me off too (also, was Jake supposed to be 23? I think not). Oh, and I guess Jake had other clothes, either that or there's a Demon Wal-Mart.

One error maybe, when Sam talked to Dean at the end, he said that Jake told him he'd killed him and that was how he knew. Didn't Sam also hear CD say that a deal had to be made to bring Sam back? Because I surely did.

Now Sam's going to look after Dean? If I was crossroads chick I'd be afraid, evil Sam might take over.

BTW, how did Dean find a crossroad so easily?

And they say the gates of hell are in NYC.

Posted by: go phetch May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

Serious love-hate relationship with the episode.

Starting with Carry On My Wayward Son, Me: "Yesss!!!!". The Road So Far showing Crossroads Demon pacts, Me: "Oh fuck no!!!" (me too lameduck)

It's a good thing that Ackles and Bobby Beaver can sell it well enough that I was buying the shit they were selling. Christo, Dean didn't learn anything from all his anger at his dad, or give thought to yellow-eyes' (and Dean's Children Shouldn't) view on people coming back?? Suuuccks. And then Dean fucking LIES to Sam? Not Dean. Sorry, try not to completely break the character. And not that suspenseful for next year's arc (just like this one). Dean's going to die and go to hell? Well maybe if it's cancelled, Sam can re-drop dead trying to welch the deal and Dean can go to hell. Supernatural Thelma and Louise.

Glad to see Ellen, and Dean hugging her set myself a little afire. I was screaming for Bobby to kick Dean's ass, glad he gave him a talking to.

I teared up when smoky-Dad returned to save the day. And the knowing look between Dean and Daddy got me teared up. I'm one of the few that misses John. Hope the white fuzzy meant he got to go be with Mary.

Posted by: jediknight May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

But that's what you think. Remember Celine Demon said he needed someone to lead an army. And the Winchesters unleashed an army. Don't be surprised if we find out that the special kids, don't end with what we saw. Celine Demon's got to have a backup plan.
They're in Clifton, New Jersey.

Posted by: ScrappyTheOwl May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

Don't be ashamed, we're just different than everybody else ;)

I'm pretty used to it -- the episodes I hate the majority of people seem to go ga-ga over (e.g. The Usual Suspects *gag*) and vice versa. I love Teh Angst, though, so ... there you are :)

Posted by: Sophia P. May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

I liked it. It wasn't perfect, but I liked it.

That's what made Dean's deal more palatable to me - that it was recognized in-show that it was a stupid thing to do, that he should have known better, etc., etc. and so forth.

Plus, I'm glad they killed off the YED. After living through The X-Files and giving up on Lost, it's nice to see a definitive end to a major story arc from time to time.

As for next season, I'm much more interested in how the boys' personal Inspector Javert is going to mix things up for them than I am about the two hundred some-odd demons that escaped.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

God dammit. God dammit! Kripke, you fucker, you disappoint me.

Yeah, now we know what season 3 is about-- the Quest for Dean's Soul, plus demon mop-up. I expected so much better from you, Kripke. Oh well, I suppose it's better than Dean being somehow sainted or something.

I was glad that Bobby confronted Dean about his self-loathing. I was glad that the demon rubbed in how the self-loathing, self-sacrifice thing may have actually been a bad thing. I was glad that Ellen was back. I loved Bobby feeding her a shot of Holy Water before the shot of whiskey. I'm glad Sam killed Jake. I loved the Jazz-Hands Janitor with his mastication of all surrounding scenery. I'm glad Daddy Winchester got to stick up for his boys one last time -- he does show his love though actions, not words or, you know, competent parenting. And I loved the return of Carry On My Wayward Sons.

But god dammit! God fucking dammit, a deal? A year? If we didn't already know Kripke had a four year plan, there might be some tension to that, but as it is? God dammit.

I suppose, putting a hopeful spin on it, maybe Dean will get consigned to hell at the end of a year, and then claw his way out like Daddy Shut Up -- but then wouldn't he dissolve into the cleansing white light of Come Up With A Better Goddamn Trope, Kripke?

Fuck. Fuckity fuckity fuck. I wanted so much to like this, and I spent the entire time saying "Not that! No, surprise us! I know you can do it, Kripke but you completely wimped out or lost all your good ideas or.. gah.

OK, so Sam shoots a guy in the head several times -- you know, a guy who just unleashed hell on earth, who had the chance to kill the demon and didn't who betrayed humanity, who freaking killed Sam, and we're supposed to be all "Whoa, dude, dark!" that Sam killed him, and enjoyed killing him? It seems on ly fair that Sam would get to kill Jake back. And the little cinematic blood spatter, ala Blood Lust or whatever? Yes, thank you, I needed another fucking anvil in my living room. They make such lovely end tables.

I'm so frustrated with Kripke right now -- I want to be concentrating on the performances, on Dean with his heart breaking when he realized he'd failed his only job -- but I wanted him to know that there's something to him that he's not just a vehicle for the survival of his (admittedly ridiculously hot and remarkably broad-shouldered) brother! Oh, and did this crossroads dejmon throw in a shoulder-healing for Sam when she brought him back to life? That was nice of her.

So now, next year's going to be about Sam trying to save Dean, and Dean trying to prevent said saving, since the crossroads demon babe said Sam would be rotting meat if Dean tried to welch. Grrr.

OK, I'm just fucking pissed. I'll take a moment to breathe.

So, what did you all think?

Posted by: GoldfishGirl42 May 17, 2007 @ 9:13 pm

Heh. Damnit, it may have been the booze, or maybe just Jensen Ackles and Jim Beaver, but that episode made me cry, even as it pissed me off.

Damnit, baby boy. "I had one job. ONE job. And I screwed up."
NO YOU DIDN"T. GODDAMNIT NO YOU DIDN'T. I will enjoy next season because you are played by Jensen Ackles, but Dean, you are worth so much more than that.

But, hell, I may be pissed, but they have me sucked in next September. Plus they're going into next season having blown up their mythology. That's always fun.

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 9:14 pm

I laughed at Bobby's What the fuck did you do?! face when Sam and Dean showed up at his door.

Gah! That's what I get for being interrupted while typing.

Posted by: Beanster May 17, 2007 @ 9:14 pm

Yes! I was screaming "JUST CALL IT THE HELL-MOUTH, ALREADY" all night.

The episode did have some bright points, but the ending felt so out of sync.

I'm also glad that they didn't drag out the Sammy-in-the-dark ordeal, and that Sam is going to take it upon himself to save Dean, but the deal-with-the-devil might get a little old. Hopefully they'll wrap it up by sweeps? I don't see how we can have any humorous episodes when Dean's death is hanging over our heads (and really, I melted at Dean smiling, but why? It just didn't gel).

Also, I really don't think they should have called back to the pilot so soon. If Kripke didn't think that was his last episode (and they way he was setting it up, I don't believe he did) then he shouldn't have wasted such a perfectly good classic show shot. Those should be really saved (i.e. Gilmore Girls).

For the most part, though, I am satisfied with the episode, while still a little underwhelmed..if that makes any sense whatsoever.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 9:14 pm

grinlord, I totally missed that.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 9:14 pm

ARRRGH!!! How can I be so completely pissed off and still have enjoyed it? Damn it, damn it, damn it Dean! I cried over Sam's body with you, and I hated seeing you like that but damn it, that was a stupid, stupid move. Gah.

Jensen acted his butt off, again. I have to say this to him though: You're gorgeous and you can act like there's no tomorrow, but evidently you and I have two different definitions of the word sneaky. Cause there was nothing sneaky about Dean doing exactly what he had railed at all those other people about. Or about Dean doing exactly what he spent all those episodes mad at John for. Grrrr!

Kripke, if Sam turns out to be anything, and I do mean anything other than regular old Sam, Yemen won't be deep enough for you to hide. You'll have to go to freakin' Jupiter to escape the wrath of this pissed off fangirl. Grrrr!

I guess we know how Episode 22 of Season 3 ends now. Are TPTB trying to kill this show? Or did they not think that they would get another season and they were trying to leave us with something satisfying. I'll go with the latter option because it doesn't make me any angrier than I already am.

*takes a deep breath* Okay now for the (few) things I liked. Ellen didn't die, yay! Even though I already knew that, I was still glad when she showed up. Bobby going off on Dean was fabulous. He got to say all the things I was screaming at my TV, only he was a lot nicer. The YED was entertaining, that "I've got a genius on my hands" line was amazing. Not sad to see old Celine bite it either. I liked that they answered why the YED kept the Colt, but why the heck would he keep the bullet? He didn't need it to open the gate, just the gun, so why keep the darned thing.

I'm too irritated to go on right now. I need to breathe before I try to process anymore.

Posted by: aliceanna May 17, 2007 @ 9:16 pm

Y'all can chalk it up to fangirl delirium if you want to, but I loved every second of this episode. I was not in the least bit spoiled, beyond the fact that JDM would be making an appearance, and so I willingly went along with every tiny bit of emotional manipulation this show had to throw at me. Loved Dean making the deal. Loved Sam finding out at the end and yelling at Dean--Hell, loved EVERYONE yelling at Dean--for not valuing himself enough. Kripke had me sobbing throughout this episode and managed to make me finish it with a smile and a "thank you, sir, may I have another."

I can't be much more coherent than that at this point.

Posted by: Nibs May 17, 2007 @ 9:16 pm

Loved it. I felt they seamed together the storylines quite well. I like this show best when they are hunting and removing "evil." The personal BS just gets in the way and makes it too much like a soap-opera. Let's get back to defining legends and ghost stories from the heartland shall we?

Posted by: acf151 May 17, 2007 @ 9:16 pm

karasu amagoi:

I'm turning mine in.

Oh, Ellen, glad you're alive but - Jo wasn't there was she? I know the board doesn't care but, mother's first instinct and all that.
So, if that's what the YED wanted Sam for, how did he think he'd get Sam to do it? Seriously, once the gun was in his hand?
I feel badly for Jake. He didn't mean to go AWOL, dammit! Poor Jake.
Zanne:

It would have proven the YED had the sense of humor that that smirk he couldn't relax from implied.

Posted by: RogueGambit26 May 17, 2007 @ 9:16 pm

I'm with you. I may have just started posting regularly but I've been reading these boards for a long time and knew that the reaction would not be good but I liked the episode. Maybe I am easily amused as well. I loved the interaction between the brothers. I LOVED the scene between Bobby and Dean. And I don't feel that Dean making a deal negates everything he learned this season. I just don't. He has a low sense of self worth and feels that he was put on this earth to protect his little brother. The end of this episode brought about a shift in that thinking when Sam finally told him that he feels the same about Dean. So, I'll come on board as loving the episode and impatiently awaiting next season.

ETA: Oh, and I loved Dean's line about checking the YED off the "to do" list.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 9:16 pm

That isn't what everyone wanted. What most of us who talked about it wanted was that he had a place of his own within the show's mytharc or at least an arc of his own that dealt with the supernatural. That's not what this is. In fact considering some of us have been complaining about the possibility in the Spoilers thread for weeks now because it's just plain friggin' stupid and it means that Dean had NO character development this season. His whole apparent character development arc went absolutely fucking nowhere. This entire season is like Bobby Ewing in the shower--it may as well not have existed.

Posted by: grinlord May 17, 2007 @ 9:16 pm

"Dad didn't say ANYTHING SECRETIVE AT ALL before he died" doesn't count as lying? Um...

Posted by: SillyLily May 17, 2007 @ 9:17 pm

Dude, yes! Then he grabs his jaw...LOVE.

Also:

Dean: Well, then (followed by the HOTTEST DEAN LOOK EVER) We've got work to do.

Dean: Ya wanna get something to eat? You wanna eat?

Yeah, Dean, why don't you just rip by still-beating heart out of my chest with your big brother-ness? Kills me dead. Everytime.

More coherent thoughts later...

Posted by: nikojules May 17, 2007 @ 9:17 pm

Well, I liked it. Not as good as last year's finale, but really, how can you top the Impala smash?

I think as long as they don't over-emphasise the whole "must save Dean" arc for next year, it will work. They should throw in some other plotlines to make it interesting. And there should definitely be more Bobby and Ellen.

So now that the YED is dead, does Sam still have his powers?

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 9:18 pm

Yeah, that was weird. Maybe Celine had a plan beyond just opening the Hellmouth.

I kind of hope he's not actually dead though. Frederic Lane is fantastic.

Also, BOTH Dean and Sammy are Lying Liars Who Lie. Dean came clean at the end, but I wonder if Sammy told Dean about Mary knowing the Demon?

Now that I'm calm, I'm disappointed. On the one hand, the character stuff in this episode was really great (and I am fully onboard with Dean selling his soul; what's dead should stay dead, but when it comes to Sam, he does not give a shit) but on the other hand, this seems like poor payoff for all the myth stuff we've been given in the last two years. I'm not a fan of the killing off the main villain and then trotting him back out every sweeps, but I'm holding out for a sinister continuation next season (WITH LANE PLEASE!) that doesn't retcon or ruin anything.

Posted by: asweet7492 May 17, 2007 @ 9:18 pm

But...I liked it. I mean, we had a hug!! But then I like schmoopy stuff. YMMV.

Posted by: Infie May 17, 2007 @ 9:18 pm

As soon as I saw Dean's red-rimmed eyes, I thought "Demian is going to hate this episode."

I really liked it though!

It was totally overwrought - too much Intensity All The Time, and I really disliked the new suit the red-eyed demon was wearing, especially since the first one was so great.

At the same time, I loved that they killed the yellow eyed demon, and that they brought Sam back fast, and that they resolved the John storyline. Too often shows drag all that shit out for EVER and it sucks. This way there is definite forward momentum. It's cool that some demons escaped, and that the last bullet of the Colt has been used.

Bobby rocks. He just flat-out rocks.

Dean's smile at the end was out of step with the rest of the episode, but it was still a ray of light and damn but Jensen brought it again.

Need to rewatch, but really, it was pretty damned good. Already can't wait until next season.

Posted by: malibudream May 17, 2007 @ 9:18 pm

Yes Kripke we know you are reading this you motherfucker. I don't think Dean could handle that. And neither could I. But I know Sammy just ain't right =/ It's like now Dean is Sam and Sam is Dean.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

That it did. Too bad it was the only thing that ruled. And it wasn't even an original idea for the show.

Posted by: The Real Nemo May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

It wasn't quite as exciting as last year, but as an ending I thought it was more satisfying. I liked the way everything came together with Dean finally killing the Yellow Eyed Demon and the part John's spirit played in it.

Posted by: thinkcwik May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

I think there may be a loophole there. The Crossroads Demon said that Dean couldn't welsh on the deal, but if Sam is the one that fixes the problem, all should be right? Right?

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

I totally forgot about the law story arc. And that was one of my favorite sub-plots! I really MUST have more Inspector Javert. Though a scene where Dean tells the detective not to worry about him since he'll be gone in a year would be cool. I would love to hear the detective respond to that. Heh.

Posted by: Brinny May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

That better have been intentional.

I think I liked it. I mean, I'm pretty sure. The CGI sucked, and hard, but there was just so damn much that was awesome, I'm really having trouble not liking it.

Posted by: PatricePitrelli May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

Am I the only one who doesn't know how episode 22 of season 3 will end? I know they'll be battling demons...but..wait...you don't mean...having Sammy make a deal to get Dean out of his deal? Kripke's not that stupid....

Posted by: I Wonder May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

Lameduck... I also groaned as well when I saw the crossroad scene..

After all the hype up.. and the anticipation, I definitely think I was a bit disappointed with tonight's epi.. I mean.... it was totally predictable... i was so looking forward to being surprised and shocked... *grumbles* Reading through everyone's comments, I'm glad I wasn't the only one highly dissapointed about the finale...

Posted by: Kimit May 17, 2007 @ 9:19 pm

I agree. Maybe I'm just easy to please, but I really liked it. Can't wait for next season and I can't wait for spoilers to come out about next season in about a month haha

Posted by: MizSurguri May 17, 2007 @ 9:20 pm

Ah, but I thought of it as Kripke telling the CW, "Folks, if you don't give us year 4, I'll have to kill off Dean."

Posted by: MissRavenwood May 17, 2007 @ 9:20 pm

Thincquic (spelling, sorry) - that is exactly what I thought - OK, no cheating for Dean, but go get 'em Sammy!!

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 9:20 pm

I don't know what season you guys were watching, but I didn't see this development. Yeah, there was the whole "what dead should stay dead" and "John was an ass for putting me through that" but did anyone think Dean came so far that he wouldn't sell his soul for Sam? In what episode did that happen?

Well, he had a laundry list, so I would imagine so. And he seemed pretty excited to see Sam alive, so I imagine having the special kid open the hellmouth was just a test.

Posted by: valueofaloonie May 17, 2007 @ 9:22 pm

Huh.

That was, uh, interesting. Yeah.

And it just *reeked* of series finale, didn't it? Or maybe I'm the only one who thought that.

Posted by: rigby001 May 17, 2007 @ 9:22 pm

That would be funny.. they could go on and on and on like this for years and nobody would have to actually die. Of couse the demons would have to be really, really stupid, but who knows...

I am kidding. I think.

Posted by: ScrappyTheOwl May 17, 2007 @ 9:24 pm

Demian: Kim Manners did direct this episode, per the credits, and The CW is, as always, a LYING LIAR WHO LIES. (Forgive me if someone else already pointed this out.)

Same here :P

Posted by: Spikes Pet May 17, 2007 @ 9:24 pm

LOVED it. Spent the first 10 minutes or so going through tissues as Dean monologued to his cold, dead brother.
Fantastic acting, badass Sammy- a HELLMOUTH in Wyoming....this episode fucking rocked it.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 9:25 pm

Apparently Demon's are retarded, since the YED left the bullet in the gun, which was the only thing in the UNIVERSE that could kill him. His death wasn't that satisfying, since it only happened because of his own stupidity, and not any ingenuity, or even effort, from the heroes.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 9:26 pm

I think that's how I feel, too. I mean, the acting and relationships in this episode made me cry. The plotlines just suck. I can't believe Kripke took the most expedient route and had Dean make a deal with the Crossroads demon. I absolutely adored Bobby calling Dean on his dumb move, and when Bobby teared up, I started crying, too. Dean made me cry, too. I'm watching the scene again now and crying. I hate the whole Sammy is contaminated possible plotline. I'm going to have to call homage here. Didn't Brimstone have to collect evil souls that escaped hell and send them back? I hate that the season 3 mytharch will be the "no, i must save you dean." No, I must save you Sammy from going dork-sided mytharc. I hated the FBI storyline, too. God, I think I'm going to have a hard time dealing with next season.

Dammit, why does everyone on this show have to be such good actors? Despite the things I hated about this episode, at least I can't complain about the relationships. Dammit, I didn't even notice the hug.

Posted by: ScrappyTheOwl May 17, 2007 @ 9:26 pm

I actually kind of got that impression, as well. With the drawback to the Pilot at the end with an open-ended but full circle ending ... perhaps Kripke thought he was going to get cancelled for a while there ...

Posted by: grinlord May 17, 2007 @ 9:26 pm

I'm not sure if I'm making things up, but the people who didn't enjoy this episode seem to have been overhyped about it.

Just a theory.

Posted by: Boadiccea May 17, 2007 @ 9:26 pm

That wasn't supposed to be the sole function, though. Jake really was to be the leader of the released demon army. With increased powers.



Speaking of powers: Kripke told us that the finale would show why Sam has powers and Dean does not. Since the only thing we saw was the Demon giving Sam the blood, then I have to assume Kripke was telling us that Sam had powers only because of the demon version of formula. This would suggest they would disappear now, with the demise of the Demon. One good thing came out of this.





I think it was because he feels he saved his family--his father is no longer suffering in Hell and Sam is alive--he avenged his mother's death and he has demons to hunt down. And since he never thought very highly of himself--as we were told repeatedly in this ep--he thinks the price was worth it.





On the other hand, if Kripke's idea of a good end to this series is for one brother to be condemned to Hell, well, that's just depressing and not really an incentive to hang around.


Sigh. At least Dean got to kill the Demon.


ETA:


But how do they just do that when hanging over both their heads is that Dean will die and soul will be condemned to Hell for eternity, in a year? Seems like that's going to get in the way of just cheerfully hunting urban legends.

Posted by: ShannenB2000 May 17, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

But really--that's OK. I'd much rather Kripke close down some storylines(and the major one the show was based on? That takes some guts!) while opening others and giving us resolution just in case the show wasn't renewed over what Rob Thomas did for example. I've heard he refused to write the last VM ep in any kind of finale type way even though you could see the show was getting cancelled all the way from outer space, and now those fans totally are f'ed in the a because their show is cancelled and they're not getting any real resolution. To anything.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

It should have all led up to the finale where we SAW that but no, we didn't. In What is...he was willing to give up what he thought at the time was a real world, sacrificed what he thought was his family's happiness, sure he didn't feel all gung ho about it, it's hard but he was willling to do it. AND he saved himself at the end when he discovered only him and the girl were the ones who needed saving. So yeah, this whole season certainly seemed like it OUGHT to have been leading to that. The fact that it didn't, means he literally didn't have any character development AT ALL.

Posted by: Keely1116 May 17, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

Or he could just stroll out of the open front door to hell, like John did.

Eh, it worked for me. It wasn't as awesome as last year, but I didn't mind them wrapping up that storyline, starting a new one, and leaving us with some questions about Sam.

I couldn't stop laughing at Sam's face when he woke up and at Bobby and Dean's reactions when Dean and the resurrected Sam showed up unannouned. Priceless.

Posted by: Ophelia14 May 17, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

Question:

Was I the only one who was afraid Sam was about to whip out the Jedi Mind Trick when he was telling Dean to tell him the truth, at the end? I totally thought that he was going to do that, and then we'd end on Dean's face when he realized what just happened. That would have been awesome.

Take notes, Kripke.

Posted by: liberateourtime May 17, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

On the bright side, this episode makes an excellent 'catch the cliches!' drinking game.

1) Asking the dead body of a loved one what to do.
2) "The war has just begun."
3) Pretty much Papa Winchester's entire scene
4) "That was for our mother, you son of a bitch." Seriously, Dean. Twenty something years and that was the best line you could come up with? Although, I'll give ya that "Fuck you." was probably too much for the CW.

I was just very....ugh. Underwhelmed. I was expecting AWESOME. I got lukewarm. What "questions" were answered? "Will Sam survive?" Um. Duh. There are two characters on this show. Unless the Impala is actually the TARDIS, I highly doubt Dean's just going to pop off and find a new BFF to fight evil with.

However, I did think Dean's sort of chaotic and confused mood at the start was spot on. As well as the "take a shot at me, just please don't tell him." That was heartbreaking. Very IC to me.

Posted by: I Wonder May 17, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

valueofaloonie.. the show is definitely coming back next season.... it's already been announced in the cw's fall lineup

Posted by: Megz May 17, 2007 @ 9:28 pm

I understand the frustration with this episode, it was definitely quieter than last year's, but I enjoyed it. Bobby was awesome, as was Ellen. I was happy to see John, much as he may have annoyed me in the past, although his whole piece was little melodramatic.

It did pretty much tell us what next year is going to be, but I'm not going to start hating the new season before it even starts.

Hah, yes.

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 9:28 pm

Yeah, did Kripke honestly thing he'd get canceled and write this as insurance? I honestly had no idea this show was even in danger at all until I saw how happy y'all were at official renewal news.



I am now absolutely convinced he has a plan (he's a cylon!) and this was all somehow part of it. There was a reason for the Fucking Colt, and not just as a tie-in to last season, I swear. Also, seriously, Celine needs to come back because he's just too too awesome.

Posted by: BlueIris May 17, 2007 @ 9:29 pm

Nah. I pretty much went into the episode thinking, "As long as they don't do another deal with a demon, I'm happy."

Posted by: thinkcwik May 17, 2007 @ 9:29 pm

Thank you!! I thought that Jake would attempt to shoot ol Yellow Eyes, only to find the gun empty. Stupid fucking demon.

Posted by: tkollas May 17, 2007 @ 9:29 pm

Okay - so I knew my theory that Sam was dead was out the window as soon as the director's cut was posted. I was hoping that Dean wouldn't make a deal. But when he explained to Bobby that he should have died anyway, he was just making things right, taking care of his brother, etc. Sort of made sense. The episode was okay for me. It definitely had the feeling of "well, if we're going to get cancelled, at least we can tie up some loose ends here." I liked the implication that Sam came back "wrong." But things seemed a bit cheerful at the end considering Dean might go to hell in a year.

Posted by: QuicheSan May 17, 2007 @ 9:30 pm

Because I'm an optimist (or quite possibly in deep denial), I like to think that the gun wouldn't work as a key if empty of bullets. There's no evidence either way so I'm going to go with that.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 9:30 pm

Okay, I have calmed down and would like to say something constructive. I think I am the most disappointed because having Dean make a deal with a crossroads demon is just such an easy way out. Kripke and the other creative minds had the opportunity to stretch their collective imaginations and come up with a way to bring Sammy back that would be both amazing and original to this show. These are creative people who could play in the sand box of their imaginations and really come up with something unique, and they didn't. I expect better from Kripke & Co.

Posted by: CharlieNancy May 17, 2007 @ 9:31 pm

Yes, to all these things. These things just seemed so forced.

Posted by: Iowan Corn May 17, 2007 @ 9:32 pm

GO GET'M, JOHN!!!
(yes, I did shout that at the television. Loudly.)


also,

Dean, you dumb fuck. Why in the hell did you think Sam was going to let you get away with doing that?
(although that was one hot kiss . . . )

Also also,

Carry on, my wayward son = semi-offical theme song of the show. Seriously. Except for the Impala's, which is still 'Back in Black', of course.

Between the President's choking and Ellen's escape, I'd have to say that prezels are on the side of the angels.

It's a wonder that Sam Colt had any time to run/create his gun business, with all the demon hunting/containing he apparently did.

Kripke, you wonderful squeeing fangirl you! Ending things in circles, like epics/sagas are suppose to. Especially with that gleam in Dean's eye when he slammed the trunk. I cannot wait until Fall; this should be so awesome!

Posted by: acf151 May 17, 2007 @ 9:34 pm

Allathlete12, don't be ashamed, it's just that, as others have said, it's hard to top last year's finale. And the arc direction for S3 is so very predictable. I wish I trusted that the arc would be handled deftly, but the chances are the same as President Bush winning a third election.

Posted by: malibudream May 17, 2007 @ 9:34 pm

Same here. Yay for doing EXACTLY what like 99% of the people DIDN'T want! But I will still have faith. I think they can salvage this!

Posted by: Lila82 May 17, 2007 @ 9:34 pm

WOW. After truly despising Part I, Part II totally and completely redeemed this arc, while tying up loose ends and organically continuing the Winchesters' journey. John saved his boys, and their grief for him can be laid to rest. The Demon that killed Jess and Mary is dead, and the boys grief for them can be laid to rest as well. And I mention Jess and Mary in conjunction because Dean grieves just as much for Jess' death as his brother; less for the woman herself, but more for the happy ending she gave Sam. The boys' relationship has come full circle and is taking on new dimensions, changing and reshaping, but remaining true to who they are. For a plot heavy episode, it sure felt character driven!

Mostly, we have a new arc that sprang naturally from the previous one. The Demon's legacy isn't over, but the continuation feels like a natural part of the previous one. Furthermore, given the Winchester history of irrational behavior following a loved one's death and making deals with demons, Dean's noble-minded but idotic decision feels like a natural continuation of previous stories. It's not like the book totally closed, just one chapter ended and another began.

Maybe I'm analyzing this too much from a technical standpoint, but it's the structure of the writing that made me adore this episode. We had callbacks to previous episodes, authentic character development, and the perfect bookends of the trunk slamming and "we have work to do" as the boys begin the next leg of their journey.

So much love for Kripke and Co. for this one!

ETA: JA owns my soul. I've loved him since his fey Eric Brady days and I was only half paying attention because I was packing, but I had to stop folding t-shirts a couple times to let the DeanAngst sink in. I wish our boys could receive the appreciation and critical attention they deserve.

Posted by: valueofaloonie May 17, 2007 @ 9:34 pm

Yep, I knew that...but since this was written/filmed long before anyone knew that, I really got the impression that Kripke was hedging his bets with this finale. If the show *had* gotten canceled, that would have been a good...ish series finale.

But on the brighter side? Joe Beaver knocked it out of the fucking park...and I still heart Dean. Even if he did make a deal with the damn Crossroads Demon.

Posted by: PatricePitrelli May 17, 2007 @ 9:35 pm

Still wondering, how is the season three arc predictable?

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 9:35 pm

Heh. I apologize on the show's behalf. The crossroad thing did bother me - resurrection should be a big fucking deal. I agree, it seemed too easy, to ready a solution, and unearned. Until of course Jensen Ackles broke my heart, but aside from that, yeah it bugs.



Hee. I'll give the fourth one a pass because well what other things can you really say in such a moment? But the TV tropes have got to go, really.

Posted by: pcj423 May 17, 2007 @ 9:36 pm

I don't post a lot to forums but I was very disappointed. So much so that I doubt I will follow this show next year. I didn't even watch to see John help out. Once they gave us the convoluted (did I spell that right?) plot about needing one half-blood demon to walk through the devils trap I quit. I mean if these churches were built let's say in the 1800's, it took the demon this long to come up with that idea. Maybe my tuning out before the end caused me to miss a key point. I doubt it seriously. That's it. I'm done.

Posted by: lexual May 17, 2007 @ 9:36 pm

I'm going to rewatch it but I really liked it. It did sort of feel like a Series Finale but that is what made it cooler for me. And I was totally surprised to see Daddy make an appearance so who knows, maybe next season will have some twists too.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 9:36 pm

I am so glad that I wasn't the only one who missed it. I was reading these posts going 'what hug'? Then it dawned on me. Only excuse I can offer is that I was so mad at Dean that I wasn't paying attention.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 9:37 pm

Yes, Kripke is. Jo and "Croatoan" ring any bells?


Yahtzee!


I was definitely not overhyped; I was petrified. I really thought this would be the last episode of Supernatural I would ever watch. I've not been very happy with most of the story that Kripke has been telling this season. I figured tonight would the last straw for me. I think John not being in hell anymore, Sammy being alive, and the Celine Demon being dead paired with the amazing acting will have me tuning in next season. Is underhyped a word?

Posted by: twistedgrl May 17, 2007 @ 9:37 pm

First off I knew I was in trouble when I got all teary eyed in the opening sequence...Plus I love that they brought back "Carry on my Wayward Son" for the opening sequence!

I LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!! I think this finale was so much better than last seasons....we had closure, emotion, and humor all in a jam pack episode. So Dean sold his soul to save his brother..I mean comeon we all saw it coming and it is soooo something he would do..he has always thought Sammy was better and more important than him besides the fact that without Sam I dont think his life would have been very long to begin with. Although I am VERY interested to see how the writers are going to get him out of that deal...seems pretty air tight to me.

Dean rocked it out of the ballpark with these last 3 episodes...I mean damn!

While I was never a fan of Daddy Dearest it was kinda anticlimatic after all the hype...I mean okaayy.....although ironically I had forgotten about him and was surprise when he grabbed the YED (who by the way was cracking me up with all his analogies..lol) thats how lost in the episode I was....

Finally I just have to say my favorite line was at the end when Dean said..."Well I guess we can check that off the to do list"....I am still cracking up over that! But I am glad they ended that story line...it had the potential to get beaten to death with a two-by-four......

NOW I HAVE TO WAIT 4 MONTHS!!!!!!!!! <sobb>

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 9:38 pm

KRIPKE: *looking at Dawn Ostroff* Lady, put the gun to your head."

So apparently there's a big star-shaped railroad system in Wyoming. That no one noticed. And demons can't cross rail lines? Because there's no other rail lines in the country.

Amulet? Mary? Never mind.

Apologies to those that enjoyed it, don't let the rest of us spoil your fun.

But it is on, Kripke. Dean lies to Sam. Then Sam lies to Dean! Dean asks Bobby to keep The NEW BIG FUCKING SECRET! Fortunately, that didn't last long, because Sam is a zombie, but not stupid. Slow on the uptake, because apparently his Reaper was on a cigarette break between the stabbing and the speechifying and the deal making. Where was Sam?

Where was his body, anyway? Do they have Certa mattresses in deserted ghost towns?

How many gates to Hell are there? Just go use another one, apparently the rest of them are wide open.

John doesn't get the walking into the sun effect? Maybe he went back to Hell because that's where he was headed anyway.

And then you waste two (2) scenes with Demon and Jake? We care about Jake? Doing the kind of dealmaking he should have been doing with Sam all year?

The war has begun? What about all those demons already all over the rest of the country? Sounds like its well underway. Who cares about California and New York, SAVE WYOMING!

Mole?

Demon leaves bullet in gun. Jake doesn't use it. Demon drops gun, Dean picks up and points at Demon, who forgets how to use his telekinesis. Bad, bad, bad.

And that poor Janitor. Three times. Once when John summoned the Demon, again when the Demon left to possess the Reaper and came back, then again this time. He must be a fun ride.

Dean had the same scar on his forehead again. Is that supposed to be meaningful?

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 9:38 pm

How did I know those here would hate it? Now that's predictable. :) Kripke is god. Sure the CGI sucked rocks hard at the end, and daddy being there for only 2 seconds was a disappointment, but you don't get disappointed if you don't read spoilers and get a certain picture in your head. A show runner will always zag when you expect him to zig.

1.)Bobby rocked the f'ing house. Him finally calling Dean out on "How worthless do you feel?" ruled. It ruled.

2.)Dean making the deal. YES I LIKED IT. Because it made sense. All the bitching, all his moaning, and all his wailing, but he was powerless in the face of his love for his family. That's Dean. He's not a hypocrite. He's not a bad man who deserves what he gets. He's not stupid. He's human. I read constantly, "We don't want Dean to have powers." Well, he doesn't. He's achingly, wonderfully, woefully human.

3.)Frederic March ruled. You're the next American Idol. Oh yes....and I'm glad he's dead and that Kripke finished it. No convoluted X-files bullshit.

4.) People wanted the mytharc to end. Well it's over. YED is dead. The boys are on the road again, chasing spirits. Chasing demons. Chasing monsters from hell and a few ghoulies in between.

5.)Sam knows. Sam can be on Dean's back every single day for what he's done. I LOVE it. Everything Dean wanted to say, Sam can say and oh am I ever going to enjoy that dynamic. I'll relish it.

6.)Still have to find out what Mary had to do with it all. Sam, you little liar. :D

7.)Sam came back a little wrong. Excellent.

I can't wait for season three. In spite of it all, it's a way to hearken back to the original format of season one. A different monster every week. A little FBI on their tails. What's not to love? The PK kids are gone. Isn't that what people wanted? I know I did. Yes, the CGI at the end was bad. I'll cop to that. Daddy barely being there pissed me off big time. I'll cop to that. But I still can't wait.

Kripke, you have cajones. You aren't afraid to piss people off. I love it.

Posted by: skvan May 17, 2007 @ 9:39 pm

Long time lurker here...
I just have to say - put me in the loved it camp! I have totally enjoyed this whole season, and thought this was a very satisfying end to it, and a great set-up for next season. And if the series had actually been cancelled (perish the thought), it wasn't a major cliff hanger like last season. I felt it was totally in character for Dean to sacrifice himself for Sam. He even says, that he shouldn't be here now, and this would make his Dad's sacrifice worth something. He's totally screwed up, of course, but then again, we knew that...Well anyway, just wanted to throw my thoughts into the mix.

Posted by: go phetch May 17, 2007 @ 9:39 pm

I wasn't overhyped, or spoiled/speculated. I intensely disliked last week's, so I was hoping for something original to redeem it, which didn't happen. And while I like that it set up some stand-alone hunting rhyme and reason for next season with the escaped hellions (vs. this year's "well Sam's going darkside, let's do a hunt"), I don't much like the Faustian Dean thing- lack of suspense for the same reason Sam didn't stay dead. For me, it was like I said, a love/hate- as someone else said the performances were good but the story didn't service it. Like good hunters standing around with deadJake while the key to the hellmouth is still spinning and the doors aren't open yet. Doh!

Posted by: omelas May 17, 2007 @ 9:42 pm

I guess it left me completely underwhelmed. Bobby saved the ep for me. I don't know how I feel about Dean's deal...I know it goes against everything he said this year but come on, it's Sam! Rational thought goes out his proverbial window.

One little thing that I loved, during Dean's talk to Sam, at one point he was telling Sam how he "can't do that", but he didn't say can't, he said "I can not", yeah, totally stupid little thing, but I loved it.

Posted by: Greeneyedgal May 17, 2007 @ 9:43 pm

Here's the thing - as long as next season isn't demon hunting all the time, then I'll be fine.

Let's not have demon of the week - the various stand alones are awesome and I hope we keep that.

That being said, the more I think about it, the more I did like this episode. Mind you it wasn't the bang up that last year's was, but HOW do you outdo the Metallicar getting slammed?

I just wish that CGI with John hadn't been so fucking crappy. Cause. Ughs.

THAT disturbed me more than anything.

And - the COLT HAD A DAMNED PURPOSE.
Thank GODS.

Posted by: malibudream May 17, 2007 @ 9:43 pm

wow. well I will still follow but yes... let's hope there is more to this than meets the eye. That can't just be IT. I KNOW Kripke's got something up his sleeve. Atleast he better.

Posted by: nellyhug May 17, 2007 @ 9:44 pm

Well, put me in the few, the proud, the naive, because I loved this episode. But then again I was one of the few who actually liked the mytharc and (gasp) Croatoan.

One question did anyone else see a shadow of a person in the background when Dean was talking over dead!Sammy's body? Or was that just me?

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 9:45 pm

Well there's one in Cleveland...

Posted by: Boadiccea May 17, 2007 @ 9:45 pm

I really hope that Kripke's idea of a satisfying series finale does not include dooming one of the brothers to Hell. If he does, I wish he would tell us now, so I can get off the train before it goes over the cliff.

Posted by: grendel May 17, 2007 @ 9:46 pm

I was 95% unspoiled for the episode and thought it was great. I had read interviews previously when the show was in danger of not being renewed that the season ending would serve as a good series end if it came to that (unlike say Jericho). If the worst happened, we fans wouldn't be left hanging and there's enough put forth for another season or more. However I would like the show to not shy away from the "apocolypse" for once and to actually have the world go to hell with the boys fighting it tooth and nail every step of the way. If we're to believe this is a war, then show us a bloody war.

I liked the reveal that Colt did more then just make demon killing guns. Would kill to see a one-off episode with Sam Colt kicking Demon ass in the old west.

Posted by: Twist6989 May 17, 2007 @ 9:46 pm

Please hear me out here. I'm glad it felt like a season finally. This is the end of the YED ARC. This is what killed their father, mother, and set the course in their lives that led them here. It had to be so climatic that it bordered on cheesy.

So please, don't feel disappointed and don't stop watching the show. The next season will probably be awesome because they'll be able to focus on new things and I feel the Dean selling his soul arc will actually be usefull to Dean's character development. Maybe he'll find out what self-worth is.

Also we will be able to have diiferent Arcs without having the whole...... Demon that killed mom and wants Sammy arc looming over our heads. Now the show will actually be able to be about two brothers in a car, who go across country and hunt evil.

So count me in as someone who loved this episode!

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 9:47 pm

It's a tv show. It was about as "predictable" as knowing some would love it.

Posted by: MinaA May 17, 2007 @ 9:48 pm

I'm barely half way through these posts and I'm surprised. I thought it was a good episode. Not the best, not the big shocker like we got at the end of season 1, but I thought it was nicely played and well set up. It was simple and dramatic as a friend of mine put it. I think there are only so many times we can get those shockers anyway before a show starts making stupid leaps, but thats for another show and another thread. I am glad they didn't play it that way this time around.


We have been set up for next season and while questions that have been brought up like Mom knowing the demon in part 1 aren't answered, they certainly aren't dragging out storylines like some other shows. I too will miss YED (the actor portraying him did a great job), but the story was addressed and he's gone....moving on.

I have been reading the threads (not the spoilers though...I think that would have ruined the episode for me) and while I was a little apprehensive about the whole Dean making a deal to bring Sam back as speculated...I thought they played it off nicely. I think he now has both sides of the coin so to speak. He knows the spot his dad was in and he knows the spot Sammy will now be in. Sort of full circle, again, my friend's words...but hey I'm giving her credit. I did love that Bobby started ripping Dean a new one about it though. I think that was great and I do love that they aren't dragging out the whole "Sammy can't know" end of things.

I also loved that Sam was the one who brought Jake down...it was a small twist I wasn't expecting, I thought for sure after last week it would be Dean. Jared knocked it out the the park with that one....I was actually kind of scared of him and it's not because he's so tall. Jensen also did a great job in this episode, no less than expected.

I was kind of disappointed at first with the whole scene with Jeffrey Dean Morgan at first, especially without any dialogue but as his moment was ending I thought the actors did a great job portraying what wasn't being said just by the looks passed between them and yes, I, too noticed the weird CGI screen thing going on, but it's a show and it's one show I am willing to overlook some of that because I like the show.

I know a lot of people were looking for less talk, more action, but I liked the easiness of how this episode was done. I am already so tired of the stupid and outrageous cliffhangers other shows are handing out and I am happy that there was some settling in this one.

Jensen and Jared and the actor how plays Bobby(I don't know his name...sorry) all kicked ass in the acting department in this episode. I can't quite speak about Ellen right now because I haven't decided how I feel about the character just yet.

So yes, I think the episode rocked, and no I'm not changing my mind. :)

Posted by: CharlieNancy May 17, 2007 @ 9:48 pm

Hmmm...I think I liked it, now that I've had a little time to process it. :)

It's a good set-up for Season 3; to me the most intriguing storyline of the bunch is Sam -- when Sam gunned down Jake there was something seriously wrong there. I'm a bit pissed that they took the soul-selling route with Dean, though. I was hoping that Kripke could have figured something different for him.

The entire cast acquitted themselves well -- I thought that Beaver and Lane in particular did well. I know that Ackles submitted this episode for the emmies, but I still think he had a stronger performance in "What Is."

I hated the dialogue in this episode. It was so heavy-handed -- the character relationships are well-drawn enough so that the writers don't need to beat us over the head with "Dean loves Sam or vice-cersa" every other second.

Hunh, I didn't notice that.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 9:48 pm

I was not spoiled.


Homage alert! Buffy came back a little wrong, too.


If Kripke keeps pissing me off, I won't be watching his show and I'll ask Alexias if he'll let me borrow his boxcutters so I can cut off Kripke's cajones. Seriously, I'd go down to Big Lots and buy boxcutters for a buck. It would be worth the investment ;)

However, I don't think the Celine Demon mytharc is technically over with 200 demons escaped from Hell, especially if Meg is one of them. When all the demons are back in hell, then I'll officially say the mytharc is over.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 9:49 pm

He's protecting Dean, letting him keep his innocence. It would be sweet if it wasn't pointless, counter-productive and hauntingly familiar with Dean keeping John's Big Damn Secret.



Yeah, that's my main problem with this episode. I wasn't spoiled, I wasn't overhyped, but I expect more from this show. It's just
too easy for the writers to do it this way. Shore, snore -- another deal. Not that all the actors didn't sell the hell out of it --Dean's anguish, Bobby's "What the fuck!" face and verbal bitchslapping, Sam's growing unease as he figured out what Dean did -- but it's just ... it's been done. Surprise me, ok, show?



Perhaps his time roasting on a spit in hell has given John time to see the foibles of life and how he raised his sons. Dean's just following in John's footsteps. If anything John should be kicking himself for conveying to Dean that he had no value in and of himself. (See! Still John's fault! Even if he did help Dean in the end by grappling witht he demon, he's still an ass in my book. So nyahh! to you tin foil hat people!)



Yes, but remember, Bobby and Ellen have the strength -- or at least the awesome of ten normal people.



Jo ran away, remember? She was far, far from the roadhouse when it blew up.



Bobby's bitchface was pretty awesome, actually. Not as awesome as the verbal bitchslapping -- and nowhere near the thing of beauty that is Sam's bitchface -- but impressive nonetheless.

Re: Stupid demon giving the loaded gun to Jake -- my fanwankery is that the gun needed a bullet to work as the key. Didn't bother me. Bothered me when Jake didn't shoot the fucker -- I expected better of him -- but the bullet-in-the-gun part was ok. And it made it so Dean could kill Celine in the end, which was satisfying, I'll admit.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 9:49 pm

Wow, I never really thought I'd say this, but I agree with you karasu. No offense, it's just usually you and I are on different ends of the spectrum, but not this time.

I noticed that too. Maybe that'll be Dean's schtick, he begins every season with a nicely placed scar on his forehead. *sigh* I really need to sleep on this one and probably watch it again before I comment any further, but I can't tear myself away from here. Nevermind open gates to hell in Wyoming, I've discovered a sign that the world is ending, right now. It's 10:48pm on a Thursday that saw a brand new episode of Supernatural air and yet I am able to post, not once, not twice, but three times. Or is it four? Either the new servers are waaay better than the old ones, or something is wrong.

Posted by: acf151 May 17, 2007 @ 9:50 pm

You make a good point.

The acting was incredible.

But there's still no surprise with the Dean situation. (Unless they wrap that up in the premiere. That would be cool.)

Posted by: Kimit May 17, 2007 @ 9:50 pm

I really don't think this was meant to be a series finale. John Shiban did an interview a few months back where he was asked how they were going to go about writing a finale that could possibly be the series finale and he said that they would just write it under the assumption they would be coming back for another season. I know stuff could have changed, but that's what Shiban said. It did feel like it could have been a series finale, but I don't know if they wrote it with that in mind.

So anyway...is Sam the only special kid left? Does he still have his abilities?

I really wish he had told Dean what he saw in his nursery. I hope that comes out pretty early in season 3. I don't like the boys keeping secrets from each other.

Posted by: Uranium May 17, 2007 @ 9:50 pm

I totally agree. Kripke can dream his dreams, but keep him away from the word processor.

So much cloying dialogue. I thought this show had a no-chick-flick-moments rule. What happened to the rule, Kripke?!

Of all the dumb things Dean did, lying to Sam disturbed me the most. This may be irrational, but there it is.

Posted by: shadowmagist May 17, 2007 @ 9:50 pm

Wow, you guys move fast.

I read the first 6 pages or so and skimmed the last 4, but just to yet you technical people know: Kim Manners directed the eppy, instead of Robert Singer. Oh and question! Did the other guy, who co-wrote with Kripke write any previous eppys? Cause that may have been the reason for the uneven-ness.

That all said, I loved the episode. Sure, the beginning felt off and Jensen has always annoyed me a bit(heresay, I know), but when Bobby and Ellen were put to use, everything felt good. I loved the Holy Water Shot Glass. So classic.

With the opening of The Portal To Hell...can we assume Meg will be reappearing? I'd love it if she re-possesed Sam for longer than one eppy, cause they had a good sync. *cue evil sing-song sam*

Speaking of The Portal, I did like the beginning CGI, with the giant black smoke of doom, but then, when John showed up and everyone was teary eyed...I dunno, it looked bad and was distracting. CW, increase SN's budget! Stat!

Good eppy overall...B+...I liked last year's more though. That was solid gold right there. :)

Posted by: Pessimist May 17, 2007 @ 9:50 pm

Hmm. I'm okay with this episode, but I didn't love it. As far as ending the YED, it was satisfactory. I was ready to be done with that storyline and it's good to have some plotlines end. The Sammy destiny stuff was getting on my nerves because it never seemed to really go anywhere. Ending it is better than watching 3-4 years of dealing with rehashing the psychic kids stuff over and over again. This is oddly optimistic of me, but I think hitting the reset button at this point could work well.

Anyway, the second that Dean made the deal, I knew that there were going to be a ton of unhappy folks around here. I don't agree that it was the wrong move or out of character, but as I've said before in the spoiler thread, I get why people feel that way.

On the upside, it really seemed like Dean was letting go of a lot of his unhappiness and tension. His dad's in heaven (or somewhere like that), Sam is alive and totally laid out his feelings, there aren't any lies between them and the YED is dead. I kind of wonder if next season is actually going to be about Dean being a bit overconfident and unworried about saving his own ass. After all, they beat the YED. Everything after that (including Sam getting him out of the deal) will probably seem much, much easier.

Posted by: CarsonMcKay May 17, 2007 @ 9:51 pm

Don't forget Sunnydale, CA and Wisconsin!

I didn't mind this episode. I squeed over the opening, the deal and Daddy Winchester. I immediately sent a text to my big brother saying "your my big brother and I love you," to which he replied, "don't you ruin this for me." We'll talk about selling our souls to save each other later. I love that Jo has jumped off the face of the earth.

Posted by: Jonisa May 17, 2007 @ 9:52 pm

I agree. I'm another one who liked the episode. I came into it unspoiled, and I was a little concerned that Sam wouldn't be in it much, seeing as he was dead and all, so I was glad to see him up and around fairly quickly. I don't have a problem with Dean making the deal, it doesn't make me think any less of him at all. The man had lost absolutely everything and just didn't care anymore, and they sold it to me with Dean's speech about not believing he should be there anyway.

I loved Sam's little speech at the end to Dean. He gets it, he knows full well that Dean has always been there for him, would do anything for him, and how much did I love Sam telling him point blank that HE FEELS THE SAME WAY toward his big brother. Loved that both Bobby and Sam called Dean on his self-esteem issues. Can't wait to see Sam doing some of the saving next year.

I want to know more about Mary, wonder if/when Sammy is going to share that little tidbit with Dean. Can't imagine that will be an easy one to talk about. Have to wonder if being resurrected from the dead will have any sort of affect on Sam, they definitely hinted that it would.

Yes, I had my quibbles, but overall I really liked it.

Posted by: acf151 May 17, 2007 @ 9:53 pm

Keep in mind, the door was open when YED was shot.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 9:55 pm

The Celine Demon is dead, goddammit. Do not take away one of the things I liked about this episode. That not nice ;(

Posted by: I Wonder May 17, 2007 @ 9:56 pm

while seeing evil sam again would be really cool, remember that both Dean and Sam have the anti-possession charms that Bobby gave them after Same got possessed the first time... so while Meg might be back, she unfortunately won't be in Sam anytime soon..

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 9:56 pm

Do you guys really believe the psychic kids plotline is resolved because Yellow Eyes is dead? I don't for one second think we have seen the last of that storyline. If nothing else, we have the multiple generations of super specials to deal with now. If there is one thing I have learned from every genre show is there will always be one more evil up the ladder who is pulling the strings, whether they call it The First, The Source, Big Baddy Bad Bad, etc...

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 9:57 pm

Yeah because Dean was so successful at it this season? But of course Sam will do it better. Because Dean's just a screw up. He means well but... He's only useful if you need someone with good aim and no one is around to use mind control on him.

Posted by: shadowmagist May 17, 2007 @ 9:58 pm

First of all, would you consider me young if I told you I snickered at Meg being "in" Sam?

Secondly, yeah, I do remember the amulets, but like all pieces of jewelry in a supernatural universe...they can break. Easily sometimes. Still, seeing Meg in any form would be nice, so let's wait and see.

Posted by: jediknight May 17, 2007 @ 9:59 pm

You forgot Senior Partners, and Lana Lang.

But I agree. That power in those people, not everyone is ready to handle that type of power. And I have faith that Kripke will break that out.

Posted by: Soda21 May 17, 2007 @ 9:59 pm

Yeah, I had a bit of a problem with that. Yes, the YED is dead and that's great (and the one thing in this episode I didn't see coming a mile away), but it ended a little too happily for me. I would have preferred Sam to have a reaction more similar to Bobby's, but I suppose he's resigned to his big brother being a self-sacrificing idiot where he's concerned.




And that's another problem I had. Others have said this and I agree--it would have been nice to have seen some other, more creative way to bring Sam back.

Other than that, I enjoyed the episode. Not nearly as much as Devil's Trap, because that episode got the most physical reaction out of me I've ever had at anything on TV/film--heart palpitations and all. But I liked it as well as I like most SPN episodes. It was good, but not great like I was hoping. I expect more out of a season finale--they set the bar so high last year.

I adored the scene with Bobby and Dean after Dean made the deal--best part of the episode for me. Bobby is just...guh. I want to live in his house and smish his cheeks and cook for him and help him take care of his dogs. Loved seeing Ellen--and Dean hugging her was a big "Awww" moment for me. As was seeing John again--I knew JDM was going to be in this episode, but I still said "Ooooh, Daddy's back!!" when I saw him, yay. I loved how he put his hand on Dean's shoulder and smiled--letting him know he didn't regret making the deal. That was nice--I didn't think words were needed.

As for Sam possibly coming back wrong...I dunno. They left that pretty open, but I admit right after he overkilled Jake I was half expecting his eyes to flash red like Jake's had.

So. Next season. 1)Sam tries to find a way to get Dean out of his deal. 2)Dean tries to distract him with "Oh, look, another demon that needs killin'." 3)"Okay, demon's dead but oh noes, Scooter caught up with us again, gotta get away from him." 4)Repeat steps 1-3. Okay by me, but I swear to God, if they kill off any other characters on this show then make a deal to get them back, I'll...I'll...probably keep watching because I love this stupid awesome show. But I might come here and bitch about it.

Posted by: Whiteotter May 17, 2007 @ 10:01 pm

No, I was really expecting it too. And it would have been awesome indeed.

Posted by: shadowmagist May 17, 2007 @ 10:01 pm

Not too mention that I think CD wasn't exactly talking about the Psychic Kids, being the army that Sam needs to lead. There is a Demon Army out there now. What if they end up plotting to have Sam vs. Dean ensure in a massive blow-out?

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:01 pm

Apparently. Man, I'm working on a Sammy-esque bitchface over here right now. I really hope that watching it again will make it work better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Though I have to admit that hearing Bobby light into Dean about that deal made me just this much (picture thumb and index finger far enough apart to allow a single atom to pass between them) better about the travesty that they have made of Dean's feelings from earlier in the season.

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 10:03 pm

Someone mentioned the possibility of Dean's arc being wrapped up early. If they did do that, then I will like this episode a lot better. The biggest problem I have with it is that season three looks to be season two redux. Which is so boring. If they resolve that issue early--say within three or four episodes--then they could concentrate more on killing the 200 demons while evading the law. And maybe we get a little more humor!

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 10:04 pm

Whisky! What's the point of TWoP if we all agree? Harrumph. I was hoping for Contrarian of the Year, but looks like it won't be from this episode.

Can we start a Loose Threads Thread? Maybe Meg will possess Jo. A twofer.

So Old Yeller is gone in a little poof of black smutz. Which I rather liked. No cataclysmic lighting and earthquakes when a celestial being is annihilated, just a little *poot*.

200 demons back in Hell. So while Dean and Old Yeller were speechifying Sam wasn't paying attention, he was counting black clouds? That's preposterous. And some of the escapees were black smutz and some were from the Haunted Mansion. John at least had the politeness to be corporeal. And when were all the demons ever in Hell, it appears Hell is just someplace horrible you go because someone bigger made you, but you can ditch and eventually you get out. Like high school.

Does Jake think his mind control was faster than a speeding bullet? Shoot him, you ninnies.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 10:04 pm

But the deal with the Colt, besides being a handy key, is that is kills demons D-E-D dead -- it doesn't send them back to hell, it doesn't inconvenience then for a century or two, it doesn't give them a second chance. Celine is now well and truly dead, gone, departed this plane, never coming back, etc. IF what we know about the gun is true.

Posted by: AWMalory May 17, 2007 @ 10:04 pm

I've got to watch again, but I liked it. I can't see me going unspoiled for any more shows though. I was way too stressed.

Did we ever have any indication that Sam remembered what he saw in the nursery? Maybe when I watch it again I will see something, but I just thought that Sam didn't recall the things he learned in the dream. Jared does a good job of confusing me with regards to Evil vs. Normal Sam. Until he pulled the trigger the 2nd time I did not even consider that Sam might not be "normal". That 2nd and 3rd shot shocked me a little. I just wasn't expecting it.

Jensen was incredible. I cried right along with him for most of the show. I also loved the Dean Smackdown delivered by Bobby. I can't believe that EMO Sam didn't realize that Dean struggled with feeling second best all season. It's not like Dean ever hid the fact that he thought that his entire life boiled down to (1) finding and killing the YED, and (2) protecting Sam.

There were times that I felt sure that Kripke visited this board and carried things into the show.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 10:04 pm

I kind of wondered how now we know that demons can't cross iron. That's a new one. I just loved your whole post, too, karasu.

That final scene when Sam says he'll save Dean, I started tearing up at that again. Sigh. I love me those Winchester boys.

I'm happy. Even though I hated parts of the story, I still love my boys. I'll definitely be back next season. I'm still never going to trust Kripke again. I'm only coming back for Sam and Dean. And maybe Bobby.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 10:07 pm

God, I am not looking forward to that storyline. It just reeks of Scooby-Doo and the Thirteen Ghosts.

I do like the fact that Sam is in danger of becoming evil just when the YED is dead, and there are no external forces anymore.

Posted by: acf151 May 17, 2007 @ 10:07 pm

Sorry jerslix, what do you think the odds of that are? I'm deeply afraid.

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 10:08 pm

Like the psyKids going to Hell when they die (demon blood? Who knows why?), so when Sammy died he was in Hell with Daddy and they climbed their way out together when the door opened, but since Dean kept Sam's body enshrined in the front seat of the Impala (while John's is merely ash), Sammy was able to re-enter his corporeal form while John turned to angel dust.

Then it could have ended with Sammy's first gasp of breath and I would have won the T-shirt. *sob*

Posted by: Boadiccea May 17, 2007 @ 10:08 pm

Except the doozy about Mary.





Yep. And I wonder if the same people who dumped all over Dean for being a LYING LIAR WHO LIES and who hoped Sam would punch Dean out when the secret came out etc etc, will feel the same away about Sam's keeping the information about both Mary and the Demon cocktail (which might have caused his powers in the first place).



Sigh. I really wish they had not gone the deal route. Leaving aside the lack of imagination (is this the only method they can come up with? Twice?), I could see the set up in "What Is...". While that ep showed that Dean would be willing to sacrifice his family's happiness (and lives) for the sake of innocent others, it also showed us how he was really standing on the edge of the abyss, too exhausted to fight on, too convinced that he was the least of his family (which is why he imagines himself more than a bit of a loser in the AU). Before "What Is..." aired, I had thought that he would come back sure again that the fight was worth it. When it ended on the scene that it did, it went a long way to convincing me the deal was going to be made.

Posted by: MaggieCat May 17, 2007 @ 10:08 pm

Assuming that John is not both wrong and an ass (always an EXTREMELY questionable position to take) that doesn't matter, the demon is dead. That was the whole point of the damned Colt- that could kill things that weren't vulnerable to ordinary bullets and guns. Not just send them back to hell dead, but thoroughly destroyed dead. So if the YED or Meg's mute brother make a comeback next season I will be very, very disappointed and annoyed.

I liked the episode. I started swearing as Dean was heading to the crossroads, but that was mainly because the one fucking time I do not use my lucky numbers (1326) in some sort of gambling situation, I would have been off by one second. The universe is so screwing with me.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 10:10 pm

Yeah, no matter how pissed I get at this storyline, I'll be coming back, because the actors are phenomenal and a lousy episode of Supernatural is better than 90% of the "good" episodes of other shows. But because I know this show can do better, I'm pissed when it takes the easy way out.

I think I just channeled Karasu there. Does that mean I have to get a nun's habit and kabuki makeup?

Posted by: Iowan Corn May 17, 2007 @ 10:12 pm

The way I understood Bobby to be explaining it, is that the rail lines met up with each other in a devil's trap, in a continuous line sort of thing. Which would make sense, because while there are other rail lines in the U.S., I'm sure all them have an ending somewhere, where the demons could scoot around.

At least, that's the way it made sense to me during the show. Now, it's probably just fanwanking.

Posted by: CarsonMcKay May 17, 2007 @ 10:12 pm

I actually really liked that Yellow Eyed Bastard. His mannerisms were intriguing. I almost cried when Dean killed him. I hope he comes back.



So you could, hypothetically, stand between the rail lines and be safe from Demons?

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 10:13 pm

Heh. I meant that they would go back to doing more of what they did in season one--looking for supernatural signs in newspapers and the Internet and killing the ghosts/demons/whatevers.

Posted by: Snarf May 17, 2007 @ 10:14 pm

So this is what happens when your not sure if your show is going to get picked up when your already working on the season finale.
Ummm......blah?

Posted by: SCChemE May 17, 2007 @ 10:14 pm

I'm just not sure. I was in it's thrall while I watched it, but ...

they went the easy route with Sam's resurrection. Yes, they've set up a nice little turnabout with Sammy saying that his job is to save Dean and they've given the next year meaning in terms of hunting down the hellions, but come on Kripke ...

having Bobby say all those things to Dean doesn't mean they won't be said again here. I really thought they had worked to get Dean past all this - what was the point of the What Is and What Should Never Be?

At the same time ...

Hugging! Pretty Boys! Bobby telling Dean he's an ass! Sam going a little dark (I think I'm liking it...)

Ackles and Padalecki sell it every time. So I'll keep watching, because this is entertaining me as much or more than anything else on.

Did I say pretty boys, and brotherly hugging? Please, Sammy, take good care of Dean. He deserves it. But you're going to have to get better at the hand to hand.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:15 pm

I was trying to tell them that, but you know how those people on TV are; they never listen to you, no matter how loud you yell. Except I was screaming "Someone pull the gun away from Ellen's head (as awesome as she is, I'm sure Dean is stronger physically) and someone else shoot him! There's four of you and one of him, do the math!"

Don't worry karasu there's plenty of other things we can disagree on, just not this.



That he was, as he nearly always is. I actually sobbed with him, all the way up until he got that little metal box out of the trunk. That's when the cursing commenced. It's not that I don't get why he did it, but there had to be another way. Someone compliemented Kripke on his balls for pissing people off. First of all, that is not how you make a successful TV show. Suprising people is one thing, making them a bit ticked at some of your decisions is another, and not bothering to write a better way for your character to resolve the problems you presented him with is still another. To me, that last heading is what Dean's deal fell under. It's like Kripke was tired when it came time to write that, and thought 'I know, let's use the same stinking plot twist that we used in the season premiere'. I'm telling you Kripke, you better be figuring out how to survive on Jupiter, cause this whole Sam is part evil thing is not going to fly with me. And I don't think I'm alone.

Posted by: jediknight May 17, 2007 @ 10:15 pm

It's too bad that Vincent Price is dead, or they could try to get him.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:16 pm

OK...
OMGWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF!!!!!!

I know I was spoiled but seriously, I am so mad at the boys for lying to each other right now.

OMGOMGOMG.

I really don't have anything cogent to say just yet. Need to process. Kripke you bastard.

Posted by: Mia Nina May 17, 2007 @ 10:16 pm

So yeah... That could've been, like, way WAY WAY better.

Me too! I was like, ohhh, Dean's gonna get it now.. But he didn't. And good for him, man, what a depressing little life he has going on.

But still, my favorite SPN line after tonight: "Then let it end." It's not because it was great, but because Dean meant it and in that moment, he was ready to let the world go to Hell and be done with everything. What a dark place he's in. Poor kid.

When I saw Dean pulling the Crossroad Demon for the kiss I was just shocked. How the heck is Dean going to get out of this??? Huh?

The Demon did that Dean couldn't try to get out of it so can that serve as a loophole for Sammy to find a way to save him from the hounds? I need to rewatch that scene to get the line right.

I don't know. I liked the episode but there was nothing new, or nothing that I, totally unspoiled couldn't see coming miles away.

The episode's saving grace? Bobby's awesomeness. Yeah.

Seeing Sam kill Jake like that? Creepy. The small smecks of blood on his face? Creepier. I even felt bad for Jake.

The big Devil's Trap was mad cool, though.



Hahaha. Sometimes I think they should let 3 of the beasts of the fic world try their hand at an episode.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:16 pm

Actually, she didn't. She was only jarred by being snatched from the peaceful afterlife. Don't you remember? Buffy wanted Tara to tell her that she'd come back "wrong," so that she could excuse herself for sleeping with Spike.




Boxcutter jokes are a little unsettling. Kripke's a genius. Demian will scoff, but he really is. Mileage will vary on this, but here goes: Dean is the anti-Captain Kirk. He doesn't have the magical, preferable 11th hour solution offered. He can't cheat on his Kobyashi Maru. He can't "reprogram the computer so he can win." No deal, no Sam. His body starts to rot. We didn't want a chosen one. We wanted a human being. We didn't want a slayer or a Buffy who was given powers. I love Dean even more for making the deal, because it was earned. He thought he hadn't done his job. He thought that he still didn't deserve to live, so he was setting that right.

That's Dean. Take him or leave him as a character. Me, I'll take him. I was very impressed with Jensen tonight. I thought the editing in the episode sucked eggs and whoever did it needs to get pink slipped, but the characters were spot on. Bobby was brilliant. Sam still lied to Dean about Mary (oh my gosh, something to find out next season). It was all earned. Those crazy boys still try to protect each other. It was earned. Dean's appalling lack of judgment was earned. I remember being similarly pissed off when I watched Chris Keller kill himself in the last episode of Oz. Anyone remember that? Him throwing himself over the railing while screaming, "Beecher! No!"

Now that wasn't earned. I could deal with the character dying, but I couldn't deal with the killing himself over Toby because, when the character was written out in season four, Keller proved that he could, in fact, live without Toby. Keller went to prison in Cedar Junction (taking the rap for a hit ordered by Toby so that neo nazi Schillinger wouldn't kill him) and thought that he would never return. A later phone call in that season had the audience hearing Chris on the other end of the line telling Toby not to contact him anymore. Sister Peter Marie told Chris that "God had finally chosen him. It's never too late." Then Fontana undid it all to have some Shakesperian ending when Keller offed himself like a pussy. I wasn't mad that he was dead, only at the pathetic why. It wasn't earned.

Call me miss rose colored spectacles. I'm glad the YED is gone. I'm glad the PK kids have exited stage left. I'm glad Sam no longer has a tragic DENSITY (that's the only time you'll read me using that tired pun ;) ). I'm glad they're back on the road for good. I'm glad there's still mystery to be had about Mary and the YED. We got everything we wanted. It sucked eggs that we only saw John for 2 seconds.....boo.....but it worked. In my humble opinion, of course.

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 10:16 pm

Aw man.



Where did Sam get 200 from? I thought that was a weird moment, that he just came up with those numbers. Like was he counting or was it like an arbitrary estimate?

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 10:17 pm

Exactly, the whole season was literally a waste. Frankly for both Dean and Sam. And now we get a repeat in reverse.

Posted by: kchawk May 17, 2007 @ 10:17 pm

OK, honestly, all I have to say is that I signed up to watch a show about 2 boys driving a cool car killing supernatural things. And then things happened. I thought, yeah -- Jared Padelecki, so cute in Gilmore Girls, OK I'll watch. Ooooo, who's this Dean guy? He's hot! But...I'm sure he's a pretty boy who can't act. But wait, maybe I'm wrong? Oh, those boys are just cute together. OK, interesting stories too, I think I'll stick with it. Huh, wait a minute, I'm actually starting TO CARE about these boys. OK, what's on this week? Prison Break, 24, Nip/Tuck, Jericho, Lost, Supernatural. And then week after week, it just became Supernatural. And who's this Jensen Ackles guy? Huh. God, he's really a great actor. And Jared -- love ya! And then it started. The show. It owned me. And Dean Winchester owns me like no other. Ever. Ever. And no, I don't care that he sold his soul for a measly 1 year for his brother. Nope. I don't. Because, Dean, Sammy. Yeah.

So having said all that and after you know. obsessing on the TWOP forums about what might happen and yadda, yadda, yadda, this show still owns my soul. Yes, I know, Sam was really DEAD dead and probably should've stayed dead. But you know what? I don't care. Because Jensen Ackles just rocked that scene with Dead!Sammy, and he just drew me in to this episode with his undying love. And I know, Kripke you fuckin' bastard! But honestly, my mind was telling me -- what the hell guys? C'mon! But my heart was saying, good God, I just fucking love this show. There is no other show that could possibly affect me this way. Do I care what happens in the 24 or Lost finale? Nope. And I used to be a hugh Prison Break fan, and I still have not watched the finale, because meh, it lost me. But this show...it's just...THE MOST wonderful and yet, frustrating, show ever.

So details, yeah, I gotta process. I'm sorry, Supernatural, you just fucking rock my world. And that is all.

Posted by: RS Ophiuchi May 17, 2007 @ 10:17 pm

Overall I liked the episode. I wasn't terribly spoiled, and though I didn't originally want Dean to make a deal, I think the way they handled it was ok. If you guys think about it, are season two finales ever as good as season one in new shows? I can't think of any. Hell, my favorite show Stargate Sg-1 ended their second season with a fucking clip show!!! Heh. I'm with whoever said they wanted Dean to develop some self-worth next season. That said, I'm happy season three is a go, and I will definitely be back. I liked it, I really did. At least they killed the YED (maybe).

Posted by: RacingTime May 17, 2007 @ 10:18 pm

Well unlike it seems a lot of people, I liked it. It's not without it's problems and wasn't as hardcore as last year's finale but I thought it was still good. I wish John would've been touching both the boys at the end however that was still a nice moment between all of them. Still wish we could've seen a bit more of John or at least heard him speak. I liked that there was a similar showdown with both Dean and Sam once again pinned down while the YED emotionally tore at them again like last year though obviously this time with him possessing this guy instead of John. I was prepared to hate the idea of Dean making the deal with that demon but I actually think it worked better than I feared. Mainly because I thought they would keep Sam in the dark about it all through next season but thankfully Sam knows and obviously they're going to do everything they can so that this doesn't happen.

I thought it was interesting to hear the YED talk about whether Sam is all there. I don't think it was so much that he killed a guy considering that Jake killed him first but rather the way he looked when doing it. I definitely started wondering then if Sam was turning evil given the matching look he had when possessed by Meg. The confrontation between Bobby and Dean when Bobby figured out what Dean did at the crossroads was powerful. I think they still can do a lot with these new developments without it being a rehash from last year. I was happy to get a hug and again I really did like Dean and Sam's conversation at the end. I was a bit disappointed that the YED is already wasted especially because I liked that actor but I'll look forward to see where they go with this next season.

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 10:18 pm

The single tear is genetic, folks. John did the same damn thing.

Was it wrong I giggled a little when I saw that?

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:19 pm

I'm with you there. I'll be back, that was never in question, and I still love the show and our boys. But What Is and What Should showed us exactly what they're all capable of, and then they try to give us a lesser quality episode for the finale? It just doesn't make sense.

Posted by: chickk May 17, 2007 @ 10:19 pm

Well I kind of loved it. Of course I watch for performances and the characters rather than the actual plot...which is, more of than not, predictable. I guess my expectations on the storyline front are pretty low.

Yeah the Demon/Dean was oh so wrong and yet still hot. The boys hugged. And that scene between Dean and Bobby broke my heart. Once again Ackles knocked out of the park over and over again this epi.

If nothing else, next season the boys will be back to their season 1 selves with Dean embracing life to the fullest and Sam angsting with real purpose.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 10:20 pm

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Well, okay, but as long as Jo dies, too. I'm willing to compromise if Jo ends up permanently dead :)


I was satisfied by that scene, too. I think words would have ruined it.


If any other show jerked me around emotionally as this one, I would have bailed on it a long time ago. The OC, I'm talking to you, bitch. When you go Oh noes!, I just picture the Plastic!Winchesters.


Life would be so much simpler if I had more willpower. You know, if they had just found another way to bring Sam back, I really could have given this episode an A+.

Posted by: SCChemE May 17, 2007 @ 10:20 pm

BWAH!

And I can't find it now, but someone mentioned the big freakin star shaped rail system in Wyoming - haven't you been reading - there fucking nobody in Wyoming to notice these things.

And Cowboy cemetary -HEE.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:20 pm

There wasn't another way. Sam was dead. His body would have started to rot. Having another way suddenly materialize would have been a cop out in and of itself. :D

Posted by: Firecat May 17, 2007 @ 10:21 pm

I thought it was alright, but I have low expectations of this show. Give me some pretty and some angst and some violence, and I'm good.

That said, why did the demon want Sam to win? Did he really think he'd convince Sam to open the door to hell and then willingly lead his army of evil clouds? That makes no sense to me.

And I really didn't buy Jake going from wanting to kill the demon to being a willing accomplice. They should have set him up better for that transformation to have been at all believable. And I really wanted him to shoot the demon but find the gun wasn't loaded; that whole 'shoot me and you are AWOL and your life will suck, don't shoot me and lots of people will die but your life will be just dandy' thing didn't work for me at all.

Posted by: alexias May 17, 2007 @ 10:23 pm

Well Ellen continues to rock harder than anyone in history.

Pretty much everything else? A big old helping of meh. And who was the chick who played the crossroads demon? Because it wasn't the first actress, right? Yet she seemed awfully familiar with Dean. Were we to assume it was the same one?

I hate to say it but there were so many parts of the episode that just felt...cheesy.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:23 pm

Word. I always hated it from the second I saw the spoilers. It just seems like negative character development. Hell, there was even the meta-comment in the episode itself about it. I just kind of expected better.



Again, word. God, I love that Bobby called him on that bullshit. I wish we got more Bobby in the first season; he demonstrated himself to be a better father figure for them than John ever could be, even if John pulled a Harry Potter tonight.



I don't think any of it was earned. The lying seemed out of character. At least with the secret about the DENTISTRY Dean did it out of loyalty to John, but here, no reason except rocking the boat and he should have known better than to think that it would take Sam more than a few days to figure it out. As for Sam lying, that just seemed to be an omission because he didn't really know how to fit it into the conversation. I think it is more telling that he omitted the whole demon blood thing. I also absolutely don't think that the soul selling was earned at all: all signs this season pointed against it, and it seemed like a twist that was to serve a plot hole or for the sake of being a twist, and not for the sake of the characters and how they would truly act. This is all backwards now. I feel like they forgot who Sam and Dean are.

I am super psyched that the YED is dead though. I think I went through every emotion in the book tonight.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 10:24 pm

My God, I hope the writing staff would be intelligent enough to think of another way. Otherwise, that's just sad.

Same Demon at least.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 10:24 pm

Oh, dude, I just found something else to like about this episode -- it pushed me over to Fanatic! Thanks Kripke -- I tend to write more when I'm spewing bile than when I'm squeeing.

So know I'll assume he wrote it that way to get me over the top to Fanatic status. Sorry, folks, it's all my fault.

Much as I loved Jazz-hands Janitor, Celine damn well better be dead and gone and doornailed and all the rest, because yes, that and Bobby's "You fucking idiot, get some therapy!" speech to Dean were the two things I unreservedly liked about the episode.

Even the hug didn't do it for me -- I completely missed it at first, because I was too busy cursing and banging my head against the wall about the stupid deal Dean made. Arghh.

See, i prefer it when Kripke gleefully fucks with us. I was stunned at last season't finale -- the truck crash, the demon approaching, the boys and John lying there very dead-like -- because at that point, the show hadn't been picked up yet. Kripke wrote that season finale so that if they didn't come back, the demon won. That's evil, and completely and utterly brilliant. And I was expecting something that kind of evil and brilliant again -- so yeah, my expectations were high, but only because Kripke set them there.

For some reason, Dean happily consigning himself to hell for Sam doesn't have the same impact, because the surprise factor is gone. Yes, i'll be intersted to see how they break Dean out of the deal, but I have no delusions that they won't, because.. well, because Kripke didn't try to surprise me this time, i guess. It being all about me.

And it pains me that the 200 demons from hell reminded me of the Krypt-Criminals escaped from the phantom zone that was the set-up for Smallville this year. Dudes -- Smallville surprised me more than Supernatural. That ain't right.

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 10:25 pm

Because he's pretty?

I think I've been spelling the actor's name wrong. I thought there were two Es but I think it's just Fredric. My apologies, Celine! Do come back.



Yeah that bugged. Not only was it an awfully short time frame for him to suddenly have developed new and fabulous demon powers (okay, maybe Yellow Eyed Demon helped him along?) but falling for the "You're a SPECIAL human, I swear! And I won't kill your family! Also, I will bestow you with riches!" was lame.

Heee and yes, the single perfect tear seems to be genetic. I giggled too, even as I was dying of angst on the inside.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 10:26 pm

No it wouldn't have been a cop out. What's to say they know everything about that sort of stuff? It would have shown some freakin' creativity on Kripke's part. Parallels are good when they are occassional and fairly subtle(like there being parallels between a guest character and what a main character is going through, etc), not when you do constant major role reversals and simply transfer plotlines to do over again. What'd they do say "Hmm...I don't think we did such a great job on it this season, let's see if we can do the same thing but better next season".



Big ol' word to what Preppie said.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:27 pm

What other way? Ginormotron was going to rot. Soon. :D Fairy dust? Time travel? Dean didn't have weeks to scour the Earth. The clock was ticking. Fast. He did what a desperate human being does.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:28 pm

BWA! I know, now that I think about it, when is it going to get back to being about two boys, a hot car, and rock salt? Now they have like two missions to save Dean, after spending a whole year on trying to save Sammy. Really, they need some family therapy, maybe some tequila and a trip to Vegas with all this saving business.



I prefer to think that this is how he lets us know he loves us. Damn you Kripke!

Posted by: alexias May 17, 2007 @ 10:29 pm

The good news?

The only thing better than a recap of an episode Demian liked? Is a recap of an episode Demian really doesn't like.

So I have that to look forward to. Although, poor Raoul won't have much to find joy in.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 10:29 pm

I don't know, but give me a month and a paycheck, and I could probably think of something.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:29 pm

Kripke's world, Kripke's sandbox, and he could have made us see what he wanted. The man obviously has a good imagination sometimes, or else we wouldn't have this show at all. But he could have come up with something! Even if it was something off the wall, or annoyingly implausible, to me all of that would have been better than repeating himself within the same season. There were other options, other avenues, but they chose not to use them. It's a shame.



I assumed it was the same demon, just in a different host. I have to say, I didn't like this crossroads demon as well as the other one. She just didn't seem as sinister or something.

Posted by: go phetch May 17, 2007 @ 10:29 pm

Maybe they're special tracks, because where I've seen tracks meet up/cross, the iron tracks gap where one line meets the other, i.e., they're not welded into a continuous metal piece. So if the demons are all smokey, they could just shimmy through. Maybe it's the thought that counts.

I'm not so sure Sam Speshulness is dead and gone. Between what the demon said and what we know about coming back wrong, and the freaky way I was waiting to see Sam's eyes glint yellow while he kept himself from putting three more rounds in Jake...

As far as "there wasn't another way", it is fiction involving the Supernatural, there's always another way. I mean, if there's a faith-healer-reaper-binder to save Dean, ya know.

ETA:
Her boobs were nowhere near as fantastic as version 1.0

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:29 pm

It just did. ;)



I'll hold you to that, McGonz. :) Be sure to use some air freshener while Ginormotron is decomposing. He's too big for Bobby's frig. BWA! Did we really want something annoyingly implausible? I sure as hell didn't. If it had been, people would be bitching about how implausible it was.

Posted by: Scyth May 17, 2007 @ 10:30 pm

ITA kchawk. I liked the ep. I even liked the fact that there wasn't this huge cliffhanger that would have to be resolved in the first ep(s) of the third season. It's gonna take most of that season to resolve the shit that Dean has rolled around in and I'll be watching.

Posted by: ciaoluna May 17, 2007 @ 10:30 pm

Ok, so, moving past the disappointment and into the minutiae - was it intentional or bad scripting that all we saw of Jake when he was with YED was a reluctant guy mostly motivated by protecting his family, but when confronted by Our Intrepid Heroes he was all "Man, I have all these cool special powers, YED was right, bwa ha ha"? Because I'm wondering if just doing what YED wants is enough for one's virtue to start crumbling and it's not necessary to want to really be Demon General; one's intentions don't matter if the actions are YED-inspired. In which case, Sam, by killing Jake, may have started the process in himself... assuming that YED really did have a contingency plan and was not just the dumbest dumb thing to have flown in from the Land of Dumb (I will forgo making comments about how many other characters seem to vacation there). I mean, there's still an army needing a leader, and there are those other generations of Special Kids, and the Mary backstory, and a lot of this episode just seemed too pat for me to believe it's all really over.

(Speaking of the Mary backstory, someone wondered if Sam remembered all of what he was shown in his dream, and I'm guessing by the look on his face when Dean asked if anything else had happened, that he does remember and he's deliberately withholding it because he's smart enough to have seen just how well it works when they lie to each other about things like that.)

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:30 pm

So true. I can't wait for Demian to rip into this one. Hee!

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:30 pm

I also hate to say it, but wasn't she a little bit, umm, old for Dean?

Posted by: Cieley May 17, 2007 @ 10:31 pm

mustbekarma, you summed up my feelings very well! Except for the part about being happy -- I'm too disappointed right now with Kripke to be happy. But like you, I love the boys too much now not to be back to see what happens.

Bobby was indeed awesome, wasn't he? I also thought that the scene where he confronts Dean about the deal was the best part of the whole episode. Both actors did a wonderful job there, and after the show was over, it was the only part that I immediately wanted to re-watch. I am so glad that they added the character of Bobby to the show, and found such a good actor to play him. Without his character this episode would have been a lot worse. (Unlike what they did with John's character -- that whole part just didn't work for me. I almost wish they had just left him out if that was all he was going to get to do in the episode.) Anyway I hope that Bobby will be appearing again next season, at least every few episodes.

I like the idea which has been suggested that maybe the storyline of the deal could be wrapped up quickly and not last all season. Heck, I wouldn't mind if Sam finds a loophole and gets Dean out of the deal by the end of the season premiere. Unfortunately I don't think that will happen. On the other hand, we have seen that Kripke is willing to abandon storylines when they don't work -- like having Jo as Dean's love interest and using the roadhouse as the brothers' central headquarters, to mention two bad ideas from the beginning of this season.

Posted by: mustbekarma May 17, 2007 @ 10:31 pm

When there's a show about the supernatural, the rules sort of get thrown out the window. Considering the writing staff researches all kinds of mythology and legends, I think someone could have up with something better than selling your soul to a crossroads demon. I'm sure I'll read a bunch of fan fictions this summer that will have me think, "gee, and Kripke and his professional writing staff couldn't have come up with something like that?"

Posted by: MaggieCat May 17, 2007 @ 10:33 pm

It's hard to be menacing when your boobs are being flattened like that. I honestly spent most of that scene vacillating between "Aww, quit telling Dean his soul is worthless!" and "Damn that dress looks uncomfortable".

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 10:34 pm

This is why Kripke & Co. are the creative minds behind the show and I am a viewer. I want them to come up with surprising ways to solve an old problem. Let me put this another way. Would you like season 3 of the Sam & Dean show to be comprised of them beating every Baddy by shooting them with rock salt or catching them in a Devil's Trap? That is what writers do, they write amazingly wonderful ways to solve a problem that their characters face over and over in new and inventive ways.

Posted by: katygrl May 17, 2007 @ 10:34 pm

I can't believe that so many people aren't more jazzed about this episode. I've been watching Supernatural for awhile now and I see the "deal" as the natural progression of Dean's character.

Stay with me-


Dean was the ultimate hard-ass, he had a job and nothing could come before it, period. He lacked the empathy to deal with people's inherent desire save the things they love. To him, the job (and by that I mean Sam and hunting) were everything.

This situation is the come-uppance for two seasons of being a general hard-ass to every character who chose poorly/couldn't choose/wasn't strong enough to deal with the situation. Finally, Dean has to be the victim, as it were.

And what do we find? Dean, like every one is truly ruled by his heart. His desire to protect and care for Sam overrules everything he knows and believes. It's a sacrifice and a dumb one, he knows it and doesn't care, it's SAM. I have a feeling that we will see Dean more able to connect with others now, something he desperately needs to do in order to avoid becoming Papa Winchester. I also like that Sam has blood on his hands. His failure to kill Jake lead to this situation-his softness/desire for a peaceful solution/empathetic tendecies need tempering.

I am very hopeful for S3- this situation sets both characters up for a huge amount of character growth- how will Dean handle Sam taking a more physical/potentially violent role in their hunts? Is Sam merely hardened by his poor choice in not killing Jake or is he really partially demonic? What will the remaining Hunters think of the brothers? Will they be ostracizied because of the Deal? How would that affect their ability to do their "job"?

I have been impressed overall with Kripke's vision for this show. As opposed to several other creaters *coughtshondarhimesjosswhedonjjabramscough* I have hope that we will get an unexpected S3.

Although, it would be nice to have them hunting demons without the threat of Dean's demise after the Nov. sweeps.

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 10:35 pm

Sam was pure. Sam was a saint. Saints are incorruptible. He would have smelled of roses...and baby lotion.

Posted by: SCChemE May 17, 2007 @ 10:35 pm

And she obviously had the wrong brother. Sammy's the Puppy, not Dean!

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 10:36 pm

So I take it I'm the only one who's been playing Kansas on a loop since 9:57 tonight?

So it wasn't the first time they used the song, but I don't really blame them. It's an inspired choice because it just fits so well. Also, I love Kansas. (And so does Dean's Oz-loving mind, apparently.)

I'm hoping the myth stuff isn't too heavy next year because as much as I love those episodes, I equally enjoy the lighter-hearted standalones with GOOOOOOOORE!

Which, by the way, was woefully lacking this episode.

Posted by: aithne414 May 17, 2007 @ 10:37 pm

Yep, that would kick ass. After all, how realistic is it that every big resolution in their lives happens once a year, around the same time? And how uninteresting is it, when you know something isn't going to be confronted before a certain time? If this is wrapped up in a few episodes, leaving them free to do their work, then it won't feel like such a retread of "impending doom that we know isn't really going to amount to anything because there are only two main characters in the show." :)



WORD. Surprise me, y'all.



This is one thing that's encouraging, actually... that Kripke's already said he has this four or five year plan. So, I can still have faith that things are leading somewhere, and that the things we go through have a point. I don't always LIKE what we're doing, but at least we're going somewhere.

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 10:38 pm

That is true up to a point, katygrl, but what Dean did was not for Sam. Sam is a zombie. He didn't do it for Sam, he did it to Sam, out of despair, his inability to face his failure, and all the things Bobby said (and how perceptive of Bobby, how would he know all that?), which make it a purely selfish act. The Dean you set forth, the brave one, would have fallen on his sword.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:38 pm

Hee! Love it.

Posted by: GoldfishGirl42 May 17, 2007 @ 10:38 pm

I swear, the first 15 minutes of the ep, I was referring to Dean's deal-making cohort as PORN-STAR LOOKIN' DEMON. And it was the only thing that amused me.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 10:38 pm

Hey if Dean didn't 'come back wrong' after having whole conversations with reapers then no way better they give that storyline to Sam now. I so wanted that to have consequences the first two times it happened(Dean lives because someone else's life is taken from them, Dean lives because daddy makes a deal and yet again is touched by a reaper to give him back a life). The little wiggle room of "but he wasn't quite dead yet" doesn't work for that. Because even in such a near death experience there should have some kind of major repercussions(and no I don't consider a little angst that led absolutely nowhere, not even to character development 'repercussions"--hehe maybe that should be "reapercussions" ;). If they take the potentially coolest storyline Dean could have had and give it to Sam while leaving Dean with this stupid ass imbecilic pathetic demon deal, I'll be pissed as hell.

[

Dean of all people did not need a come uppance. Dean KNOWS all that. He was worried about it at the end of last season(See Devil's Trap where he worries about what he's willing to do for his family). I don't know what show you've been watching but the people Dean had the most empathy for, in Season 1, were people who were dealing with issues concerning love for their family. And no I'm sorry but I do NOT thing Dean has generally been lacking in empathy. Even this season, it was only in the specific situations that were related to this death issue(because of what his father had done in saving him) that Dean didn't deal with it well.

What Dean needed was to learn that there was a line not to cross, that is what this season was leading up to IMO and they just decided to throw that all away...for lack of imagination really. That's why he was pissed off, because now he was dealing with having had someone cross that line for him--understandably. He should have learned from that. But he didn't. The whole season was a total waste.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:39 pm

Nope. Of course, not every baddie is going to be lured into a devil's trap, or can be caught by a devils' trap. Would you like Dean's self worth issues to have been cured all of a sudden because Bobby reemed him one time? This sets up an insanely interesting character arc. I watch for the characters. I hope there is something wrong with Sam. And I like that he'll be able to get in Dean's face for what he did. What excellent material. All won't remain sweet and grateful. Think ahead. I'm glad they didn't come up with some miracle deal negating bullshit so that Dean wouldn't look bad. Let him look bad. Let him look human. I wish I had a dollar for every time I read "I don't want them to have special powers. The strength of this series is that its characters are two ordinary humans." We got what we wanted.



Amen to that. Word.



So? Human beings are selfish. So what if he's selfish? We're all selfish that way when it comes to the people we love. I don't want Dean to be such a saint he could let Sam go. That's Charmed. It's not earned. Dean's afraid of being alone. He does think he owes Sammy. It was in character. Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't want Superman.

Posted by: sourmilk May 17, 2007 @ 10:40 pm

This show continues to own my soul.

I joined the Bobby bandwagon tonight.

It was nice to see Dean with an 'older woman' ;)

I was so excited when Sam shot Jake, until it hit me what it meant...and then saw Dean's face.

The hug....did Sam hug him back? Dammit

And someone needs to explain to my husband the connection Sam Colt has with the demon world....in real life. (can't believe he wanted to discuss this during the episode).

Thanks Kripke & Co.

Posted by: McGonz May 17, 2007 @ 10:42 pm

Dude, harsh. Sam isn't a zombie......he's just been dead, and now he's not. There is a difference.....apparently.

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 10:42 pm

Lord, I hope not. Really, really hope not. That became way too messy in the Buffyverse with "good" demons. No way do I want that here.

Posted by: Twist6989 May 17, 2007 @ 10:42 pm

So DeadSam will smell like a highschool freshmen girl. *giggles*

On a totally different note.... now that I think about it.... I like that Dean sold his soul. It is such a human error to do when you are in despair. I always hated other shows when they were above acting human and their morals are so over the top that they look down on people who make normal human errors.

*I'm looking at you Smallville and Charmed*

Posted by: Wyoming307 May 17, 2007 @ 10:43 pm

Two years of criss-crossing the country, and when they FINALLY get to Wyoming, it's to shut a fucking Hellmouth?!? *sigh* Actually, I was less surprised by the presence of a hellmouth in southwest Wyoming than I was by the presence of TREES. It was almost Canadian.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 10:44 pm

If you read what others are saying, all we wanted was a creative solution to a problem that has been faced on this show before and will likely be faced again.

Posted by: Zanne May 17, 2007 @ 10:45 pm

Sam is a Lazarusian (Laz-a-roos-ian) revenant.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:45 pm

Um no, we didn't. First of all, we don't have any concrete proof that Sam's powers are gone. Secondly, what we have isn't two ordinary humans. We have one human who has a ticking clock running down on his soul that he traded for his brother's life, and oh yeah, said brother might not be entirely human, he might be evil. Again.

Posted by: alchemy May 17, 2007 @ 10:45 pm

Padalecki blood speckles? Padaleckles?

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:47 pm

Word, I do want them to do that, which is why I was so disappointed since this so clearly not original (I mean, they did it as the season opener); they could have found some other way to bring him back, but then again, that would have so seemed out of place. Frankly, the writers backed themselves into a wall and had to use this card to get out of jail free.



And in doing this he became just like John. Which is sort of frustrating. I don't see Dean as a badass and I never had. Dean is vulnerable. Dean is almost like a child in an adult body, and he uses the tough guy thing as a mask to hide the fact that he is truly terrified about how alone he is and how much all of this stuff affecting his family has hurt or scarred him. All of the signs with Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things and the earlier episodes showed us how this weighed on him. Even as an impassioned decision, he has been able to hold off on this stuff before, like when previously tempted by the crossroads demon. And he has constantly showed that he doesn't want to make himself or his fate a burden on others.

All of that was nixed when he made that deal. It was out of the ordinary for him, even as last resort, even as a plea to "finish his job", and even for his family. Even in the most dire of situations, the Dean that I know from the show would have known that doing this would leave a hurtful stain on his relationship with Sam because he had been through it with the memory of John. If there is one thing that Dean has been able to do, even if he is so much like John in many ways, is learn from John' s mistakes, which was not demonstrated here.

Posted by: Scyth May 17, 2007 @ 10:47 pm

I agree with this! Especially the Sam bit but I do think that Sam came back with something that isn't totally him.

Posted by: malibudream May 17, 2007 @ 10:48 pm

I have had some time to stew. Supernatural still owns my soul, so I am happy.

I can't wait four months! =/

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:48 pm

A creative solution wouldn't have allowed the character development we're going to get. I hear you, but I hope you hear me. A creative solution would have left us with what? Sam alive and Dean "absolved"? I like Dean messy. I don't bleed for him. I'll allow him to be messy and do stupid things. I'm not his defender. I'm his viewer. I like him better this way. :) I'm not in the least worried how Dean comes across if I enjoy the ride. Kripke's telling a story. I like his story. I like this fucked up Dean Winchester.

EDIT--

Dean is like John.



Exactly. I've never seen him as a true badass either. The character is terrified. Fucked up.



But Sam wasn't dead before. You never know what you will do until you face the situation. :) Dean made a loving, fucked up, selfish decision. I love it. Fuck Superman. Fuck Captain Kirk. I'll take Dean. He's become one thousand times more interesting to me in the course of an hour. Sam was my favorite, but now maybe it's Dean.

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 10:48 pm

Reeeeeally, McGonz? He wasn't just drifting about like Dean was, he was gone. As the Motivator said:

He's not pinin', He's passed on! This Sam is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! This is a late Sam. He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to Dean he would be pushing up the daisies! He's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This is an ex-Sam!

Credit to whoever made that Motivator.

Just where was Sam's spirit? Hmm? How is Sam different from the 'Dean Things' girl? Hopefully demons are better at this than amatuer necromancer Teacher's Aides. Let's see what happens next time Sam walks past a florist's shop.

Yes, demons have to be better at the resurrection thing. But not 100%, clearly. Problem.

Posted by: go phetch May 17, 2007 @ 10:48 pm

Word times Avogadro's number.

Posted by: Twist6989 May 17, 2007 @ 10:49 pm

Four months.... what the hell am I gonna do with myself! *Sigh*

Posted by: sugarplums May 17, 2007 @ 10:50 pm

Oh. I have to read this thread tomorrow. But someone...please tell me they'll figure out a way to get Dean out of this. I want a Season Four and Season Five with Dean (yes, I'm thrilled about Three...but I still want more).

And JA - you made me cry.

Posted by: kaylaw May 17, 2007 @ 10:51 pm

Hm. Well, after being totally pissed that I missed all the finales tonight because I was traveling for the holiday weekend, it seems like I didn't miss much. So far, it seems that the finales are 0-2 (the other for me being Grey's, which, if tonight sucked, I was going to be done with...and I am).

Is it even worth watching this episode when I get back from the long weekend? It's been DVR'd, but if it really does suck a nut like the concensus seems to be saying, I'll just erase it. Sounds like the big gripe is that Dean traded the rest of his life minus a year to get Sam back from the land of the recently deceased. If that's true, then...well, you guys have said it already.

Come on, Ugly Betty!!

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:51 pm

BWAA!



DO NOT start the countdown already...I may just go mad and blind at the same time from the wait.

Posted by: Greeneyedgal May 17, 2007 @ 10:51 pm

And this is why, overall I liked this episode.

Right there.

Let's put it this way: Dean is now the one in trouble. Period. There is no easy way out of this, he can't smooth talk or shove it aside.

Sam is the one who will have to do something to save him for once. Sam is going to be harder, he is going to have to be.

Both of these characters will change drastically for this. Do I think Sam came back the same? No, not really.

People were bitching all year they wanted to see Sam kill someone. THERE you go. He did it. He had that same look of determination and darkness on his face that Dean did in Bloodlust. Yes, the deal was made, yes, Dean is just human guys. A human being who in desperation, didn't give a rat's ass about anything else, he wanted to just do something for once in his life that to him, was right.

This episode proves what's been said all along - DEAN doesn't think anything of himself. All of who he is is tied up in Shut Up, Daddy's orders and protecting his Brother. He feels he failed John and failed Sam, what's that leave? John was the general, the order giver, Sam was the protected. Everything fell to Dean and in the end, he took the world on his shoulders.

Both characters are going to grow up in Season 3, more than they have. The role reversal is going to give both of them insights. Sam is going to end up having to be the strong one here, and Dean is going to realize that his walls and all his smooth talking and abilities can't get him out of this.

Bobby smacking Dean upside the head was a start. I don't know if it was part of the script or if it was just Jensen's interpretation of how Dean would act, but there was that light in the eyes when Bobby was yelling at him about his self worth. It's something John should have done years ago, or Sam should have done last year, but he was so into his own situation he didn't notice Dean's own fucked up world.



Word.


And in tongue in cheek retrospect, it's *still* all John's fault. Fucker.

(And just so people know from the voice of experience from someone who dealt with having no self worth and no self esteem for most of my life, maybe it's why I'm not nearly as hard on the character of Dean as the rest of people are. You have steps up and suddenly you are yanked back into , Oh shit, I fucked up again...now what? and it gets worse than before.)

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 10:51 pm

Exactly. Dean has always been quite human and vulnerable. Frankly I was ready for him to act like a god-damned hero. The crucible came and Dean FAILED with flying colors. The fact is human beings DO manage to not do stupid ass things when they are grieving too so don't give me this "human" stuff. What Dean did was not 'human", it was STUPID. While human beings can be stupid, they are not inherently one and the same.



Dean doesn't deserve to get out of this. The demon ought to come and take his damned soul right now.



Yay, Deannie the sidekick. Frankly Dean didn't seem to be looking to get out of it, nor should he. Let's hope he's at least got strength enough to do that. We got Sam being the strong one all the first half of this season. What I liked about Dean was his passion for the hunt and this great natural leadership way he had about him. They have stripped him of both those things and left us with pretty much nothing.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 10:52 pm

Hee! I am picturing some nifty scenes with Metallicar driving through a field and everything dying in its wake, but Dean doesn't notice for five or six episodes.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:53 pm

It will always be his fault. Always and everything.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 10:54 pm

Yes, that's it. Do I love Dean any less for this? No, not really. I want to slap him and scream at him, and cry with him and hug him all at the same time. I get that he was floundering, that he was in so much pain that he had to ease or die himself. And obviously, dead is the last thing I want Dean to be. I even understand why he did it. But that doesn't mean that it was the right thing for him to do. It was selfish, and he knew exactly what he was doing to Sam, exactly, but he did it anyway.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 10:57 pm

Precisely the reason I like it. Kripke took a risk. Hell, he knew people would bitch.



Yes. Yes, he did. Isn't it cool? Dean didn't come through at the eleventh hour with a nice clean solution to keep his hands heroic and clean. Bravo, Kripke.

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 10:57 pm

Please. Try waiting for Battlestar. :)



Well...I liked it...yeah I mean it's a totally flawed episode and a lot of the criticisms are spot on, but Ackles and Bobby are stellar.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 10:57 pm

lilarose, I'm with the others who say that coming up with a better idea is the writers' job. They get paid more money that I'll ever see to come up with ideas that I can't come up with myself. So do it.

Yes, it makes sense that Dean would turn to a deal with a demon in desperation (a lot of alliteration from anxious anchors placed in powerful posts!) I got excited when it looked like the crossroads babe would turn him down -- that? Would have been awesome. They would have taken all his options away, and he would have had to create something new. And in doing so, he would have turned a corner as a character, hopefully seen a little of what so many of us see in him. There would have been tension, surprise -- how will Dean do it? But with the deal, we knew exactly how he'd do it, because we've seen it before. Now the tension becomes how will he get out of it (if he can) which is.. ok, I guess, and how will Sam react, which we sort of already saw when we saw Dean reacting to the same thing.

Now, i did like how Sam immediately went into problem-solving denial mode with Dean's deal -- OK, so now I get to save you and break the deal and it's all great and let's get pie! That's very Sammy. And Dean wanting to make the deal is very Dean, you're right. He is all about sacrificng himself foe his family, for others, for anything but himself-- he has no self to save, as far as he's concerned. And that's tragic, and my heart bled for him when he was crying to Sam's rapidly cooling (and possibly stinking) corpse over what he should do, but.. .well, they did it better a couple of weeks ago with "What Should" and the speech to John's headstone. There was no surprise, no revelation, no ohmigod they just did that to Dean making a deal. It was just meh, deal, yeah, it's Thursday, someone's making another deal with another demon. Yawn.

And understand, none of this means I don't like the show. I love the show, and that's the problem. I couldn't give up on this show if I wanted to, because I care about and have invested in the characters too much. But I've seen it be great, I've seen it completely knock my socks off, not to mention my pants and my frilly unmentionables. So when it takes an easy way out, I get pissed.

A friend of mine just finished watching all the Buffy season 1-7 (7?) DVDs -- and one of the things he said was even when the show started to piss him off, even when he was disappointed (season 6 as a whole, half of season 7, parts of 5) he still wanted to know how it all turned out. Supernatural is that kind of show with me -- Kripke and Co. are going to have to do a lot worse to make me give up -- like X-Files last couple of seasons bad, like Charmed after Pru died bad. But that doesn't mean I'll stop wanting it to be great, and complaining when it's not.

Posted by: RacingTime May 17, 2007 @ 10:59 pm

I agree. I mean I wish Dean didn't feel like he had to make that kind of deal but he didn't have a lot of time to figure out what to do and I could understand how his mind would get to such a place seeing as he felt he had no one left at that point. His desperation was everywhere during the scene with Bobby and then later when talking to Sam's body. Frankly I would've been surprised if he hadn't made this kind of quick decision given where his emotions were at. I was thrilled though that Bobby called him on it, how in pain over the decision Bobby was, and how he even threw it in Dean's face about how he had felt over what John did. Plus I love that in the end Sam doesn't just go off bitching at Dean but instead steps up with maturity about it, questions Dean's belief that he thinks it's only his job to look out for Sam but not vice versa, and says that he'll help figure out a way out of this. That's what I like to see. The boys going at problems together. I think it'll make for an interesting next season though I can understand that others don't care for this development.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 10:59 pm

Exactly. I also don't think that it was an impulsive act, which makes it harder for me to stomach. Bobby wants to bury Sam, which means he has probably been dead long enough for Dean to think about this for a bit. Sure, not be over his grief, still working through it, but not as impassioned and blind about what he was doing as the end result seemed to make him appear. Then again, the timeline is all wonky for the whole arch, so maybe only a few hours had passed.

I don't think it is cool that he failed. I think failure is the expected thing. It is the cliche.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 11:02 pm

No it's not. Dean's NEVER gotten to keep his hands clean. I want Dean to be truly heroic for once because he's really not and this just proved it.

I personally do not like the direction Kripke is taking the characters. I hate it in fact. And yes Sam killed Jake but he deserved it, Jake killed Sam after all. And if Sam is 'come back wrong" well that's all Dean's fault. Not Sammy's. So Sammy still keeps his hands clean really.

They've spent the better part of the last two season emoing Dean up and softening I was ready for him to finally buck up and take it. But he didn't. He wimped out again.



Quite right. Dean fails, Sam succeeds. As usual. Dean's dragged in the mud so Sam can shine all the brighter and whiter. Because Sam's a HERO and Dean's a pathetic schlub.

I'll say it again. Dean deserves to go to Hell for this.

Posted by: laivine May 17, 2007 @ 11:03 pm

I adored it. I can't quantify it as of yet, I don't have any theories, beyond just this heady post-show feeling...but

I think the way Ona Grauer played the Deal Making Demon totally was the way she should have been played in Crossroad Blues. Bitchy, and luxuriating in her own malevolence playing against Dean literally bargaining years off his life. Just the sound in Jensen's voice as he let Dean just hit that rock bottom point was la douleur exquise! He plays agonized so well.

I loved the way they cut the scene where Dean decides to make the deal, loved the music -so foreboding, but he's thinking and moving to fast to question it. He's going there, he's going to do it, and no one can stop him. I thought that was exactly true to the character. Sam's gone, Dean has to fix it, he knows how to fix it...and he knows how wrong it is - it's been clearly broken down in his mind, he believes in his core it's wrong, but he can't leave things the way they are, not when he knows the way. So he will pay the price.

And I love that directly after that, Bobby's all WTF is WRONG WITH YOU! And that sudden moment for me, when Bobby's seeing directly into this mess that Dean's in - that Dean is - that he's been in for years, that's just gangrenous and terrible and his empathy and sorrow was palpable. And Dean collects himself in the face of it. He owns it, he owns his stupid goddamn choice, and I don't think we're going to spend all of next season wallowing in it. I think it's there. I think Dean plans to have the best year of his life, killing demons and ghosts, sleeping with hot chicks, and in his way preparing himself and his brother for his death. I think that might have been his plan, and I think he's still hanging onto that even after he tells Sam what happened.

And I loved that Sam wanted the truth, and got it, and said, okay. It's insane, but everything's insane, so okay. We don't have to accept it.

I loved Sam waking up, galvanized, angry, focused. He isn't a million places, he's got a goal, and a gun, and he wants to hunt Jake and kill Jake and hunt the YED and kill the YED and it's sort of a parallel to Dean here, he knows he's capable of it, knows that its wrong in that morally streaky way he's got, and he's just going to do it. Whether the YED's right or not about the resurrection fucking him up, I think that Sam got things crystallized in his head. When he told Dean that there was no time to wait, that calm assurance, that to me bespoke of the Sam we only caught in glimpses in the past two seasons. Where hunting is a part of the definition he assigns himself, a primary part, and he's there, he's in the fray.

Loved Bobby, Ellen, Dean, and Sam as this broken, pissed-off, traumatized but ABLE force and their cohesion as a group was delightful to me.

Loved that the Colt didn't disappear into the roiling hellish abyss. Loved that the YED couldn't just tap dance out of it.
I was glad that we didn't have a big long Daddy monologue. I think the ghostly John's power, that love of family, that flat-out permeates this show, is terrific and an asset in the long-run.

Just put me down for a Pollyanna with rosie rose-colored Glasses, and loan me Andy's van, because I thought it was really...great.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 11:06 pm

Yup. I understand the argument that the characters will change, but I don't think that is a positive. Not that I am asking for static characters, but that I feel like the changes that they are hinting at are steps backward. They play Dean as a victim of passion and someone who didn't think about consequences, despite having shown this false earlier in the season, and they set up Sam to be the big protector without doing anything to cast him in a bad light, thus setting him up to look more heroic without really doing a lot to earn it.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 11:06 pm

So does this all boil down to (some) people being pissed off because Dean looked bad? Because he wasn't creative enough to find a way to cheat the Kobyashi Maru? Because Dean is perceived to have not been a hero and failed? Because Dean is all sorts of coolness and badness? I'm not trying to be flippant, but I'm wondering if that isn't part of it. Being so emotionally attached to a character that you can't stand to see him/her do something jarring like that? I used to be that way about McDreamy until one night I thought, "fuck it." He's an asshole. No redeeming characteristics, and he's just plain boring. Who would love McDreamy? So I turned off Grey's and didn't look back.

I can understand why someone would love Dean Winchester with all his fears, selfshness, horniness, lack of creativity when his brother is rotting on the bed, occasional heroism and his flaws. He's interesting.

I still say a magical solution would have been a cheat. Dean can't find a way to bring others back from the dead, but he magically finds one for his brother? The writers made the choice. They killed Sam. They didn't cheat their way out. They made a choice that will allow for kick ass character development next season. I say, "Bravo." I respect that others don't, but I think they may start to like it once they sleep on it. :)

I'm sure he did. He just did it anyway. He deluded himself into thinking Sam wouldn't find out. You never know what you'll do until you're in the muck.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 11:06 pm

That, I have to agree, I do like. It's about time that Sam got his hands dirty.



With another character, that might be true. But as Tessa pointed out, we know all too well how human and vunerable Dean is, it's been shown to us, more than once. It's why all of us that were spoiled about this episode knew, deep in our hearts, that this deal was real, no matter how much we didn't want it. We knew that Dean would do anything to get Sam back, that Sam is his life, his reason to go on, we knew that, and we love him anyway (most of us anyhow). But it has also been clearly shown to us, up until this point, exactly how Dean felt about deals and bringing things back from the dead, repeatedly shown how wrong he thought that was. Now he's a big walking, talking hypocrite, who proven that all of the valid, vitriolic things he has spewed all over other people all season long don't apply to him. Is that an unexpected Dean response? No, not to me at least. Does it make us love him any less? No, not me, I probably love him more now than ever. Does it disappoint us? Yes, it does me. And it makes me very frustrated with the writers that they couldn't give us something more. But I'm still Supernatural's bitch, and I'll be back next season with bells on. Cause I love those screwed up Winchester boys, too much sometimes.

Posted by: Cyke May 17, 2007 @ 11:08 pm

I can't understand how so many people are so upset at how Sam was brought back. It did not matter to me at all. It was a McGuffin, just a means to an end. Dean could have recruited a chicken raising witch doctor, danced around in a kilt, prayed to God- or some god- for a miracle, and the same thing would have happened.

It made perfect sense, why would Dean even bother trying to find a new way to raise the dead? He all ready knew a way. He knows 2+2=4, why bother trying to see what 3+1 equals?

What is important is not the how, but the why. And the why made sense.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 11:09 pm

lilarose, this has nothing to do with Dean. It is about the writers taking the easy way out.

Posted by: karasu amagoi May 17, 2007 @ 11:11 pm

Oh, now I've had a thought, Sooner Charmed. Dean doesn't notice the dead flowers. He doesn't notice the fearful dogs. He's just happy to be with Sam. Who's kind of different, and not as schmoopy, in fact not schmoopy at all, but he's been through a lot, right?

Till that one night when Dean is making eyes at some knockout in the bar, and she suddenly looks over his shoulder and gasps, and he turns and Sam is looking at her with an expression, you know the one, the one that says in a profundo and imperative thrumming 'come here' and she walks right past Dean with look that says 'violate me!' and then he knows the true horror of what he has unleashed.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 11:12 pm

So what if he's a hypocrite? Aren't we all at one time or another? I find the idea of human cloning appalling, but if my child were dying and some doc came to me with that as the only way to save my daughter, I know in my heart of hearts I'd do it. We're all hypocrites.



IMHO they didn't take the easy way out. Magic solution with fairy dust and chicken blood would have been the easy way out just to make Dean look tough.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 11:12 pm

Word. A thousand times over.



That would have been mind-blowingly awesome. I was hoping, praying that I would be Kripked in this one, and that little twist might have qualified. Alas.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 11:12 pm

Hee, karasu! How great would it be if suddenly Sammy is the one landing a chick in every town! I would LOVE that!

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 11:13 pm

No, I am mostly mad because of the fact that it erases all of the character development that we were put through this season for Dean, and that it sets up Sam to look good without really earning any respect from most of the fanbase. I am not a Sam or Dean only girl, I really don't have a preference, but I haven't really liked the tenor of the show having Dean oscillate between emotionally weak and strong while Sam is a straight line. It is limiting to both, and make people bitter towards both for different reasons, and it limits what the writers have to work with. Flipping their positions as victim and victor isn't going to change that dynamic; more than likely, it will worsen it. Character development isn't development if it is a) backwards or b) the same storyline someone else already had. That is just bad writing.



I held out hope until it happened, then I threw my remote at the TV. I was so trying to convince myself that the writers were better than that.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 11:13 pm

No that's not it. He's looked bad before, it's not about looking bad. I don't mind that. I've liked Dean because he is human but he also had, or so I thought, the heart of a very human hero. He struggles and it's hard for him and sometimes he walks a fine line and sometimes maybe even crosses it a bit but ultimately he's heroic. And more importantly there had apparently been growth, baby steps but realistic growth that would have led believably to Dean NOT making this deal while not being so obvious because the growth had been(or so it seemed) in baby steps. As it turns out, Dean didn't grow at all. This episode could have been Episode 2 and 3 of Season 2 for all that it took into account what happened the rest of this season.

IMO this deal is the opposite of shocking. It's so damn predictable it's not even funny.

Posted by: RacingTime May 17, 2007 @ 11:14 pm

I guess I just don't agree with that. I think they've both failed and succeeded plenty over the last two seasons. While Dean made a bad choice here, I don't see it as a complete failure either. I thought it was especially fitting that Dean be the one to actually kill the Demon. I liked the smile Dean had at the end and to me he looked like he had a new energy boost. Also there's less weight on him about this because Sam knows what happened so Dean doesn't have to struggle with hiding it from him and they got to see their dad one last time. They have more goals opened up now but they can continue the fight together.

Posted by: airylli May 17, 2007 @ 11:14 pm

Well, he was indecently hot as Evil Sammy...

I disagree that this episode put Dean in a backward slide. For me, him striking a deal was a totally organic development, and the only way his character would have gone. Dean's always been about Family Above All, in my view; the fact that he didn't even think twice despite his own "What's dead should stay dead" issues just hammered home to me how much he is incapable of losing Sam.

Now whether that's right or not - questionable. Selfish? Absolutely. But I really wouldn't have it any other way.

As for the manner in which Dean brought Sammy back...



Dammit. Kripke - take notes.

Posted by: chisa May 17, 2007 @ 11:16 pm

This is where I'm at. I keep writing responses but then erase them because I feel extremely conflicted about this episode. And that's a first for me and SPN.

On one hand, I absolutely LOVED Beaver, Ferris, and the boys. All four of them nailed it, all four of them had me emotional.

On the other hand, I can barely make out what happened tonight. It was dizzy and not in a good way.



Tessa, this is precisely it. I was expecting all the suffering he went through this season to have a payoff at the end, and it didn't.

I still love Dean with all my heart, but his happiness at the end and the 'we got work to do' line felt very empty. And that is the last response I would ever expect myself to have about Dean.

ETA:

I'm just gonna let you speak for me on this, Tessa. :)

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 11:17 pm

Ahhhhh, so it is about how you're perceiving Dean. You don't like not perceiving him as a hero. That's okay. We all have our opinions. It's all subjective, but maybe Dean isn't a hero when it comes to his family. Maybe we've seen one hellacious chink in his armor a continent wide.

I can deal with that. Not everyone can. That's cool and the gang.



I respectfully call bull crap on that. Keep in mind that I love Sam while I make the following statement. If Sam hadn't been such a pussy and cracked Jake over the head with that pipe, none of this would have happened. Sam was a fucking wimp when he needed to get over it and eliminate a threat. And that's okay. I can deal with that, too. :)

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 11:17 pm

Super Mega Chicken? No, he is legend.

Yes, it is a McGuffin (sorry, I wasn't here to talk about the last episode of this, during which I would have imparted my whole dislike of the death of Sam in general because it would set up exactly this scenario, ie the nearly impossible resurrection challenge) which is also called lazy writing. I have disdain for writers on any show, not just this, who write themselves into a corner and then have to pull something off to get out, like bring someone back from the dead, or end an engagement (stupid Grey's).

why am I the top of the page again? stupid luck

Posted by: kchawk May 17, 2007 @ 11:17 pm

Nope. I don't see the "purely selfish act" here as you do karasu (and it's not just you apparently from response on the boards). Dean just doesn't have enough self-esteem to be that selfish. He's walking around thinking that he does not deserve to be among the living. He should have been dead after the Devil's Trap anyway. So be it. And all of his life he's been told that his only worth, HIS JOB (shut up Daddy!) was to protect Sammy. And he failed miserably. So he sees a way to fix it. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it stupid? Yes. Will it hurt Sam when he finds out about said wrongful, stupid deal? Uh, yes. But that's DeanmustkeepsammysafeifitsthelasthingIdo. Dean is not perfect. He's human. He's Dean. Love him...flaws and all.
.

Posted by: aithne414 May 17, 2007 @ 11:18 pm

Because you shove a character's face in the dirt one too many times, and I just can't root for him anymore. That's why. Because I need balance... I need to care about my characters. I can't do that if I despise them. Moral ambiguity, oh, hell yes. Moral depravity? Nope. Sorry. This isn't the Shield.



It mattered not because of the method, but because of the character making it and the repercussions for his development. He'd been railing against this kind of thing all fucking year. He knew acutely how badly it hurt to have someone do this to you. He knew how it felt to feel like you should be dead rather than have someone in Hell for your sake. Making him not give a crap about what he was doing to Sam, just for the sake of a McGuffin, was totally not worth it. Find a McGuffin that's character-neutral, if that's all you're looking for.

Posted by: Boadiccea May 17, 2007 @ 11:18 pm

But I don't see that Dean was thinking he could get out of the deal, so that's no character growth at all. The only growth would be for Dean to learn that he is, indeed, important in and of himself--and this set-up is not designed to do that because, as Tessa points out, it's Sam doing any of the proactive stuff, while Dean is just passive and sits around waiting to be saved. Which, of course, will happen because it's Sam doing the saving, while Dean failed at his appointed task, didn't he?

And while Dean worried he'd come back wrong, he hadn't. There's been no effect of that nature as a result of two dances with reapers, so if Sam does, not only is it Dean's fault, but it's again a storyline that should have affected Dean as well but was totally ignored and made nothing. The twice-touched-by-a-reaper led only to emotional angst but no supernatural effect.

They can give Dean all the emotional standalones in the world, but he really is the bastard child in a lot of ways.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 11:20 pm

As usual aithne comes in and sums it up in a couple of sentences. :) Yes, that's it.

Posted by: Whiskey May 17, 2007 @ 11:20 pm

Hypocrisy itself isn't the problem here. Yes, most humans are hypocritical by nature, and we know that. But those defining moments in life come, when we have a choice, we have an out, something that will trade the problem in front of us for another one down the road, and we get to decide if we want to take the easy way out or not. That is when you would hope that you would stand up and say "No, I won't do it."

Like when the first crossroads demon tempted Dean. Dean wanted that deal, he wanted his father back, and his soul wasn't worth anything to him then. He had that moment to decide 'What is more important? What I want and need? Or something greater than that?' That time Dean made the right choice, which proved that he was capable of it. He made a similar choice in What Is and What Should. Then this time he got the ultimate defining moment, nothing left to lose, no one to hold him back, and he failed. Which is fine, and so very human. But as has been pointed out, Dean has never been anything but human, and it would be nice to see him succeed in the real world for a change.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 11:21 pm

Word. It is like watching a dog get kicked. Not really good for all parties involved.

Posted by: Sooner Charmed May 17, 2007 @ 11:22 pm

This would have been awesome. I was completely and totally unspoiled and even I knew where it was going. How fabulously breathtaking it would have been for the show to take that route.

Posted by: TessatheReaper May 17, 2007 @ 11:24 pm

Quite right. Dean failed, Sam will succeed. Dean's just there to make sure Sam shines all the brighter in his perfection and if Sam did come back 'wrong" well, we know whose fault that is don't we?



Yep. This is there way of making sure to do what they had wanted all along. Make sure we realize Dean's the also-ran, the just couldn't quite cut it side-kick, the "he means well but..." screw up. Sam's the only big damn hero in this show and no one will be permitted to endanger that standing.



Yes and word to the dog kicking comparison by Preppie as well.



As usual Dean fails. When the chips are really down and it really counts, Dean fails. And then Sam can come along and do it the right way to show how it's really done.



Me too. Except now, what we saw in him apparently was never even there.

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 11:25 pm

Yup. And as I said, Sam doesn't learn anything from this either. This isn't good for either characters really.

Posted by: jerslix May 17, 2007 @ 11:27 pm

Because Bobby is made of awesome. This is up there with "Why don't the guys get rid of the Metallicar" -- it brooks no arguement. Bobby knew and Bobby said what he did because Bobby rocks. There is no thinking about it. It is a given.

Back away from the Bobby. Touch the Bobby, and we'll have words.



Sam is bnot a zombie, because zombies freak me all the hell out and I still want to jump Sam's bones. Preferably with the rest of him alive and still attached to said bones.



I disagree. That's why I got excited when it looked like the demon was gong to turn him down -- there Dean would have been, at absolute rock bottom, willing to give up everything to save Sam, and realizing that "giving up" wasn't the answer, that sacrifice and self-denial and all of the things he's so good at weren't going to cut it this time. But then he got to make the deal, to be rewarded, in a way, for reaching rock bottom and staying there. It disappointed me.



As someone who was disappointed in the episode, I say hell yes. The performances are worth watching. They always will be. It's frustrating, but watch it anyway. The boys are worth it.



OK, I usually hate it when other people do this, but bear with me. Last season, Sam got to make the leap -- he got to see that no, sacrificing everything, hiumself, to kill the demon wasn't what he really wanted to do. "No sir-- not everything" he said, looking into the rearview mirror at his wounded brother's face. Sam grew, he made the leap, he figured it out, he had an epiphany right there. Dean didn't get that chance -- he wasn't able to overcome himself his own instincts. I wish he'd been given the opportunity.

T

I don't quite see it that way -- he did what he knew how to do, what he always did, and it worked -- again. He gave up himself, made the ultimate sacrifice, because that's all he knows how to do. And it worked -- sam's back. He succeeded in what he set out to do. If anything, the writers failed -- I wish they'd taken the option away from him, and then saw what he could do.




I don't see an alternate solution as "keeping his hands clean." Upon refleciton, yes, I very much like that Dean tried to make a deal. It was in his nature, it was what he does. What I don't like is that the writers went through with it.




For some, maybe -- there is a contingent that seems to keep score on who gets to do what and look good etc. But for the majority of us, I'm guessing, now. Dean did what he knew how to do. The writers let him. They took the easy way out.



I'm in the weird position of being someone who hates that Dean made a deal, but not that he tried to make a deal. Yes, he's a hypocrit, and I'm fine with that -- as far as he was concerned, he had one purpose in life, he failed, he'd do anything to fix it and his life wasn't important. All that was important was Sam. Let Sam feel crappy about the exchange -- let him feel crappy about it for years and years and years. Dean's not supposed to be there, in his eyes, and he's longing for rest. Sam is supposed to be ther, in Dean's eyes, and Dean's the one who will ensure that. It's the folish consistancy is the hobgblin of little minds thing. It's bad for others to do, but it's different when he does it for Sam, in his mind.

Again, totally in keeping with the character. Upon reflection, yeah, I probably would have called bullshit at some point if Dean hadn't at least tried to make a deal. But the writers blew what could have been an amazing scenario, and incredible mindfuck on oar with the truck crash last year, if Dean had tried to make a deal and couldn't do it because the demon wouldn't let him, wanted to see him suffer. That? Wouldhave been cool. Him actually making a deal? Kind of boring.

Posted by: Anlyn May 17, 2007 @ 11:28 pm

For me, the main problem wasn't Dean's character development or lack of. It was the fact that they did the SAME DAMN THING in the first episode of this season.

I wanted them to do something different and interesting, while still remaining basically true to the characters (i.e. yes Dean would do anything to get Sam back).

Oh, AMEN.

Posted by: torrie May 17, 2007 @ 11:29 pm

I understand why someone might see it that way. I understand why some folks see his choice as a step backward, but from where? From believing that what's dead should stay dead? It's only a step backward if we SAW him come to that conclusion, and we never did. For all we know, he may have believed that since he was five years old. Maybe moving from "what's dead should stay dead" to his choice to save Sammy IS a step forward.

Here's the way I see it:

Dean's been presented all along as a "black and white" kinda guy. If it's supernatural? We hunt it down and kill it. No questions asked, no such thing as a harmless vampire, no such thing as an "okay" ghost. It's a motherfucking werewolf! Kill it! And what's dead should stay the fuck dead.

Except...maybe not. Maybe Daddy Dearest wasn't right about EVERY supernatural thing being evil. Maybe some vampires CAN fight their nature and be harmless. Maybe there's a God, and he sends Holy Poles to smite the bad guys. Maybe the occasional ghost really IS just misguided and can be set on the right path. Maybe you DO have to kill the motherfucking werewolf, but you can feel really bad about having to do it.

And maybe what's dead -- if it's the thing you value most in the world, and you can see a way to resurrect it -- SHOULDN'T stay dead. Especially if it's worth more to you than your own life. As Dean apparently was to John, and now Sammy is to Dean.

And so Dean moves from the Land of Absolutes to the real world, where you actually have to THINK about stuff rather than just point and shoot. Or, at least, you should. I call that character growth. I like my drama in shades of gray, as I like my characters -- even heroes.

I can see that arc. I see its beginning in Blood Lust and Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things. I see its middle in House of the Holy and Heart. And now we've got Dean, looking at life from the other side of the telescope and seeing his father's point of view.

I see it, and I like it. Which is not to say I loved this episode. But I didn't hate it, either.

Posted by: lilarose6 May 17, 2007 @ 11:30 pm

Moral depravity? What Dean did tonight was moral depravity? Making this deal? It wasn't even close. Dean racing to the nearest daycare, fetching a child and trading its sould to get Sam back would be moral depravity. Betraying Bobby to get Sam back would be moral depravity. This was candycanes and lollipops. Vic Mackey would call Dean a pussy for stopping to think about it for five minutes.

If this made you despise Dean, you have far more stringent standards than I. This was nothing. Hell, I wish this show was on cable so the boys could do some truly wicked things. I can root for Dean. Very much so. Some of my favorite television characters are Tony Soprano, Chris Keller, (the most fucked up psycho in Oz) Miguel Alvarez, Vic Mackey (whom I alternate loving and cursing for being such a dick to Dutch), and John Winchester. Fucked up one and all, but there's a spirit there that draws me in. :)

Posted by: Preppie May 17, 2007 @ 11:30 pm

Bwaaa! I seriously doubt that Sam is a zombie. He is just flat out resurrected, just like Dean was at the beginning of the season. Unless he too is a zombie. Then we are have issues for liking zombies in that way.