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Posted by: Strega Jul 22, 2005 @ 4:00 pm

Sounds like another madcap romp!

Usual drill: I'll open this before 11, but please don't post until closing credits roll; any discussion of promos for next week's episode should go in the Speculation Topic. Thanks!

Posted by: Aatrek Jul 22, 2005 @ 9:58 pm

Closing credits are over!

I can't believe they're updating the population total in the opening credits. I love it!

Posted by: aquarian1 Jul 22, 2005 @ 9:59 pm

Boy are they going to have to change that number now!

I'll have more coherent thoughts on this ep in a bit, but ... Wow. I was literally on the edge of my seat with the cylon showdown with Apollo and gang. I kept thinking they were going to almost shoot at the president's group then get ambushed by the cylons.

The way Helo was looking at Starbuck, makes me think he has a thing for her too.

Loved all the Billy/Dualla stuff too.

Posted by: klredwolf Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:00 pm

I. LOVE. Apollo.

Even when he can't figure out how to open a door.

Posted by: johntfs Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:01 pm

Holy crap was that great!

Tigh and Lee with that bit of mutual understanding at the end.

Kara and Helo bonding in Kara's crappy old home.

Poor Chief having to euthanize Socinus, plus what exactly happened on Kobol and what the hell is with all those skulls?

Not even a sight of either Boomer (except the naked ones in the credits, of course), cool!

Cally 's "motherfracker!"

Poor Billy.

Lucky Billy.

Roslyn's "Oh shit, now I'm a saint" look at the end.

And of course, Tigh's "Thank Gods I never had kids."

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:04 pm

I loved this ep so much. Was this the only ep without a Boomer? I loved Apollo and Tigh's interaction at end. Was the music at Starbuck's place original? So she paints? I don't know how I feel about that. What was written on her wall? I really want to give Tyrol a hug. I'm loving the scenes on Kobol. I'm just so loving this show.

Posted by: darkguardian Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:05 pm

Fantastic, intense episode. Ya know if they keep killing this many people each episode they won't have enough people left for season 3.

I LOVED the shot with the cylon jumping over and then the exploding round throwing them both in different directions (and blowingt he Cylons head off), it was like something out of a Tarantino flick.

No complaints with this episode.

Posted by: klredwolf Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:05 pm

The little details into Starbuck's inner workings - paintings, music, father?

Billy and D. back on track - smile

never was much of a cally fan, didn't hate her, but didn't love her. Love her now.

Lee's "We head towards the gunfire."

Lee telling Tigh to shove it while 'round-aboutly supporting his old man. And calling tigh on any possible grab for power.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:07 pm

Damn. I don't think the Centurions have ever been this scary. They were frackin' fast. And they had claws to slice people open. And lots of firepower. And they could leap like whoa.

Human skulls on Kobol!

Hee. Cally said "motherfracker." And whoever died on morphine, that was sad.

I like Starbuck on Caprica, chillin' in her old apartment. Wondering what she has to live for. Does anyone recognize that piano music? Is it a classical piece? It reminds me of the Aimee Mann version of "One" a little.

Dualla's conditioned response to her rank was cool. And creepy.

Love that one of the nuggets got to blow the last Cylon's head off.

Also, shit, a lot of people died.

Posted by: CaptainSnarky Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:06 pm

Poor Socinus. I just knew he'd make it. Damn, damn, DAMN.

Helo's got a thing for a lot of people, doesn't he? He's like a prostitute, except for all the sex-having and stuff.

When did Billy have time to get a haircut? Was there a barber over on Cloud Nine?

Next time, the opening credits oughta just say "47,000...and dropping."

Posted by: Warden Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:07 pm

That was unexpected. I liked it.

I would never put a gun down the middle of my pants, safety or not.

Are these centurions more heavily armored than previous ones? I remembered that standard ammo did pierce their shells.

I'm glad Sgt. Hadrian is around. Just because she was a terrible witchhunt leader doesn't mean she's not a competant soldier.

Posted by: foolforFrancie Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:07 pm

Gods! I need oxygen after that.

This series just keeps getting better and better. Phoo...I'm still coming down from the excitement.

And even if you take out all the action, you've got D-Billy, Tyrol-Cally, and Helo-Starbuck action.

And of course, the Apollo-Tigh smackdown. Winner: Apollo and the Mighty Biceps of the Gods™.

Ron Moore, I lurve you. (Not like that.)

Us: That's because they'd have ended up acting like YOU and your flaky-ass wife.

Posted by: aliana Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:07 pm

10:00 p.m. Friday nights at my house...

"And now, the Sci-Fi Original Series, Battlestar Galactica..."

Deep breath...all together now...DING DING DING DA DING DING

Poor Apollo, two blood-stained eps in a row. Yeah, muss that hair, baby.

I was totally rooting for Helo and Starbuck to make out...Sharon who?

Aww, Cally. Aww, Chief. Aww, Billy. Aww, Dee.

Bitch forgot to take my back-up ride!

Posted by: klredwolf Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:12 pm

ok, contacts were drying out from not blinking. who shot the leaping centurion? help!

Posted by: DD_Help Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:12 pm

Ok? I'm sorry, I know we're supposed to root for the "Good Guys" and all...but by the time they find Earth there's gonna be like...27 people left. Just wow.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:13 pm

I think more people died in this episode of BSG than died in every television show this past season.

I think it was Kat-who-looks-like-Maeby.

Posted by: Warden Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:15 pm

Who was the nugget that got sliced and diced in the beginning?

I could have sworn it was Apollo but Polter-Cow said it was a nugget.

I think Starbuck's vehicle will be rocking even before she turns it on.

Posted by: LaraAriadne Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:17 pm

I think that ep just gave me an adrenaline rush.

In the opening credits, when it reads, "There are many copies," and it shows the passel full o' Boomers, I keep expecting the next screen to read, "Some of them are naked."

Starbuck sitting on the arrow was great. Maybe if this whole Battlestar Galactica thing doesn't work out, she can do a sitcom, "Starbuck's Apartment." I am a little confused though by why the cylons aren't looking for Starbuck and Helo. Maybe they don't care?

Liked Roslin's "Get me out of here. I don't want to die like a rat in a cage" remark. About time she got more grounded in reality.

Posted by: aliana Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:18 pm

I hope the Cylons left a Shell station intact...preferably one with a mini-mart attached. Helo seriously needs some condoms.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:23 pm

Did anyone else think the skulls on Kobol where not there? I took them as part of Six's mind games. Kobol's been abandon for a long time. Unless those are the body are the disposed Humlons the Cylons were working on to get the current models up and running I can't see how those bones would be there. The bones looked too fresh for lack of better word.

Posted by: cutecouple Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:25 pm

The only way that could have been better - keep the population total in a corner, updated as the show/Cylons progressed. Not a lot of Cylonage, but effectively scary, like the better of those B-movies Sci-Fi keeps showing. If there was any justice, Ellen would have been somewhere on that deck. If this was a lesser show, they would have concentrated on screwing the rest of the plots and showing just the Cylons wiping out the ship.

"Talk to me, you motherfraker!" - should so totally be the subtitle of the Favorite Quotes thread.

For a moment, I thought Adama would let the baby go like Moses. I'm not sure if it's the lighting or the makeup, but Tricia Helfer looked different somehow.

Nope, no way a military truck will look out of place in a _deserted_ city. Liked the jacket and the cigars though. Maybe they'll stock up at the next tobacco shop.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:24 pm

Okay, I checked the tape. It's Apollo.

Posted by: nilyank Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:26 pm

Was I the only one who wanted Helo to slide next to Starbuck and ask to share her batteries. Hee-hee.

I know Roslyn is supposedly a saint now, but I rather she be Cylon.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:28 pm

These new Centrions have to be an upgrade since Helo was able to take some of them out on Caprica with his regular gun.

Posted by: Gella Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:30 pm

I'd say anything Baltar sees may not be there -- he saw a standing Opera House. Although it's possible that as the Opera House he sees things the way they were and at some point there were all these skulls... who knows from what.
Starbuck is NOT going for Helo. I think those two are just friends, I really didn't see much else. But she totally needs a haircut. Loved her flat and totally loved her ride. Of course that's how she'd live in the past!
The Cylons were scary. The whole episode was scary. I cannot believe this is Sci-Fi -- it looks real, despite all the robotics and space travelling. Loved the way Apollo called Tigh in the end. And Apollo totally protects Roslyn, despite the fact that his father deposed her. There is a definite mother/son energy between those two.

Posted by: cutecouple Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:29 pm

I liked this bit better with Apollo's monologing cut out. Interesting that Tigh didn't look at Apollo until Apollo finished saying he wasn't fit to wear the uniform, but before Apollo started in on him.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:30 pm

I loved Lee's line to Tigh about how when Adama wakes up he'll decide how to deal with the both of them. When he kissed his dad on the forehead before he left...so real.

Posted by: Darmok Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:32 pm

Totally loved it - really want to know what music Kara was playing in her apartment...Anyone know if it is original? Another Bear McCreary work, perhaps?

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:33 pm

Second forehead kiss in the episode, too, after Tyrol kissing Cally awww. I don't know why Cally's so adorable. She just is. But she's not walk-all-over-me adorable.

Ooh, I liked the "roll a hard six" callback.

Posted by: Warden Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:34 pm

Part of me thought the same thing (and still does).

I thought it might be too except somebody had to be shooting at them earlier.

Posted by: Dizzlski Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:41 pm

For the most part, a relaxing episode. Which will come in handy while
re-watching the entire series. A nice break.
Baltar needs to step up and start flexing his VP muscles, LT jackass needs to be put in his place. A few more of those crazy dreams, and I don't think Baltar will trust any humans.
It was nice to see Apollo almost bite it twice. But I'm sure he'll be around for a while.
Cally was great, I think she even stepped it up a bit this episode. How could anyone keep a straight face after someone says "Motherfracker"?
I'm glad Madame President went back in the brig, not because I want her there, but it would have totally deflated Tigh. Tigh's little dance/arm maneuver as Apollo was walking away was great, he knows he's still in way over his head. I hope he gets a wee dram of something every now and then cause he needs it. Not too much though. Although maybe it would be best to see him hold out for a while and then leap off the wagon right before or right after Adama is resurrected. That would be great.
The whole Tyrol euthanasia scene would have been much better had we known the soon to be ‘just another dead guy’ more.
Not a big fan of Starbuck's truck, a bit too Earthlike for me, and just how far do they expect to get? I mean, come on.
I really enjoyed the slow paced terrestrial scenes. But, they can crank it back into high gear next week and I'll be fine with that.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:39 pm

We've been told Kobol was abandon but as I learned in CW, never trust the narrator.

ETA: I expect Tigh really really wants a drink right now.

Posted by: hypnotoad Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:41 pm

The stuff on Kobol is starting to lose my interest. It feels like the writers are spinning their wheels with that storyline, and it seems a bit cliched. Except for Six's change of tactics with her mind games, of course. I've been assuming all along that the Cylons believed in the scriptures and prophecies and were just trying to fulfill them. But it seems possible that Six, at least, doesn't believe. Can't wait to see where this goes.

Everything else was great, though. The little insights into Starbuck were interesting. I wish they had showed us, though, that she wonders if Helo is a Cylon. She's not stupid.

All the best stuff was on Galactica, of course. As others have said, the Centurions are damn scary. I loved that it wasn't some glorified video game of Cylon hunting. The tension and fear were perfectly maintained, and the minimal shots of the Cylons were very effective. When they appeared at the end, spattered with blood, I got a chill. Did I imagine it, or did one of them actually have a bloody handprint on it? Yikes.

Posted by: Frost Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:41 pm

Anybody else think Helo was about to discover a nude study of Apollo amongst Kara’s etchings?

Loved the character continuity with Lee mumbling to himself over and over again (“Head shot. Reload. Head shot. Reload.”) Just like in Hand of God.

Great episode. They did a good job maintaining the suspense onboard the Galactica. My God, how many people got butchered? I thought it dragged with the Caprica stuff though. Kobol was slightly more interesting, basically because I like the Cally and Tyrol characters (now that Tyrol isn’t being led around by his you-know-what by Boomer).

Tigh gets my vote for best line of the episode with “Thank the Gods I never had kids.” It does give the impression that he’s not really that pissed off at Lee.

Posted by: klredwolf Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:42 pm

I took the whole Kobol- skulls thing to mean that there was a dirty little secret as to why the humans left kobol. maybe there where some humans left behind, and they're the ones who were shooting...

i really loved how every little nitpick thing we talked about here after last weeks episode was addressed in this episode, ie, gaeta's screen going all red, apollo calling all the pilots on letting one ship get through the fight...

Lee's totally loving his daddy in this episode. total reverse of the mini, when adama was loving absent (thought dead) son.

Posted by: nazlan Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:45 pm

And even better, that he's not sure what it means, it just sounded like the thing to say. I love my angsty, damaged Adama boys.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:46 pm

Oh yeah, I was all set to believe that was just a mistake, but no, the virus had actually gotten through. Nifty. They still need to run Norton AntiVirus.

I loved that too. That and the fact that Tyrol just cracked up at the word "motherfracker," not just because it was Cally, but because it sounds kind of ridiculous.

Posted by: Vulpes82 Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:46 pm

Helo really is a man-ho. When he was looking at Starbuck smoking a cigar (Freudian, much?) I was like "They're soooooooo going to do it!"

At first I thought the jeep thing they're now riding in would be too conspicuous, but to be fair, that city is really, really deserted. They haven't seen even a hint of Cylon activity, so it seems like an acceptable risk for some much-needed speed.

I was feeling the potential "Moses" allusion with Adama and the baby. Until the drowning, of course.

I doubt the skulls were real; Six seems to be REALLY turning the heat up with the mindgames.

I really love the Prez. She knows just what to say to get people to buckle down and do what needs doing.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:46 pm

I fucking loved D's smackdown of Billy at the start of the ep. She's no pushover. None of the women on this show are. My love for this show just keeps growing bigger and deeper.

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:49 pm

I'm going to try to breathe now.

That was easily the best, most intense sequence of sheer suspense I've seen since ... well, there's gotta be something. But that whole thing with the Centurions was intense.

And foolforFrancie, it's the former Apollo who won't go away. Dirk Benedict has yet to show up.

Next week is gonna show quite the drop in the numbers. Those people better get cracking on the babies.

I thought the same thing. Guess I'm overly on the lookout for religious overtones.

From your lips to TPTB's ears.

I liked the ending, so great to have a comedic line ending an episode with so much tension.

Also, just like Tarn, that guy who got sliced up by the Centurion had never seen a war movie. Don't be out in front, bs-ing, with your back turned. Just don't.

Posted by: Kev Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:54 pm

Did we see the same episode? I was on the edge of my seat nearly the entire time. Hardly what I would call "relaxing."

I loved how they explained why we haven't seen very many corpses on Caprica.

Posted by: cutecouple Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:53 pm

One wonders how many takes that scene took? Anyway, there's a rumor on another board that Billy said "fuck" somewhere during the last firefight, so I'm gonna check it out.

Posted by: CaptainSnarky Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:56 pm

I say that every time I go to the mall.

Ok, now that I've had some time to breathe, a few more thoughts have popped into my head:

It seems to me that the Centurions are all about wiping out humans. It's the Humlons who have this big ol' Plan.

Am I the only one who was kinda glad that the first pilot bought it early in the ep? He worked my last frakkin' nerve.

Six is really tinkering with Baltar's Brain, isn't she? The bones? Very creepy. Methinks that there's a serious genocide in the humans' history.

Posted by: excantabrigian Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:58 pm

Whew! I already had a giant girl crush on Starbuck but now I love her truly, madly, deeply. I thought the quiet stuff on Caprica was a great counterpoint to the insane action on Galactica, and like others have said, the music was fantastic - loved the way they used it over both locations. And Starbuck isn't going to mess around with Helo with Apollo all up in her head.

Believe even more now that Targ/Tarn wasn't shot by Cylons. Why would Cylons hide? Why would Cylons let them get away? I'm thinking the skulls have to do with that ambush.

Word to the Moses thing; I was totally there. Thought it might be a baptism till it turned into worst baptism ever.

Also word to the great continuous shot of Lee shooting Cylon, Cylon hurtling overhead, Cylon disintegrating in corridor. Again, whew!

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:57 pm

Wait, did they explain it? I must have missed it. I know they talked about it, but I didn't catch an explanation of anything.

Well, I figured the Centurions are the Humlons' killer ninja minions.

Okay, they're not ninjas. But they should be.

Posted by: Aredhel Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:59 pm

Apollo looks good in blood. He should stay in blood for most episodes. At the rate they're killing people, it shouldn't be difficult.

Speaking of killing people, Galactica is going from short-handed to desperate in terms of needing trained people. They're going to need to start pulling civilians in from the rest of the fleet just to keep the ship flying.

Aw, Billy and Dee!

The chief is having a really, really really bad day. And Tarn's death was for absolutely nothing. Poor chief.

Does anyone know whether or not the piano music was original for the show?

This show makes 95% of what's on regular stations look like amateur crap.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 10:59 pm

Helo told Starbuck that the Cylons took the bodies and went all Dachu/Auschwitz on them by sending them to be burned.

ETA: How is blood sexy? It is sticky, it stains clothing, it gets all crusty when dried. Just not my thing.

Posted by: lawdawg2981 Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:04 pm

Really liked the use of the old title music in the background when the other guy on Kobol died when they gave him the shot, and after everything Tyrol and Cally went through(liked the realism in that sometimes nothing goes your way). Just reminds me that I liked the old version better, not that the UK version is bad, its prety good, just not as awsome as the old.

Posted by: Warden Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

Helo did tell Starbuck that the Cylons did pick up bodies and took them somewhere to be incinerated.

as Curare just explained.

Posted by: starlady Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

Dizzlski

I saw that scene as being about Tyrol, rather than Socinus. So it didn't matter that we don't know Socinus that well (except that he lied to cover for the Chief in an earlier episode) -- we DO know Tyrol, and we know how hard that was for him. He could have let the medic handle it, but it was his responsibility.

Made me think of "Band of Brothers" and other WWII films/shows. Very moving.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:04 pm

I really miss the blipverts. It gave the credits a little umph, you know.

ETA: Socinus was on Kobol because Tyrol got him out of the brig for the mission. That scene tonight was very moving to me.

Posted by: nilyank Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

I would love to see Dirk show up as Kara's piano playing, cigar smoking absentee dad.

Posted by: klredwolf Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

Burning Bodies:

It makes me wonder, are the Cylons planning on moving in? If they're just exterminating humans, why clean up?

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:08 pm

I agree, I didn't know the euthanized guy well enough to even remember his name, but it was all about Tyrol for me. I was involved in how Tyrol was feeling about it, and that was affecting. He had to take charge, make the decision, and then act on it.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:08 pm

The Cylons could just be suffering from some sort of OCD, I have no idea. But you raise a good question. Why would they care?

Posted by: aliana Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:11 pm

The Centurions probably don't mind, but perhaps the Humlons (with sense of smell, etc.) would find the dead bodies distasteful?

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:13 pm

Yeah, I didn't understand why the Cylons were hanging out on Caprica in the first place. And now that Boomer's gone, are they still there? We saw no sign of them tonight. Boomer has the purported baby, so are they still going to hunt down Helo and Starbuck? Starbuck's new ride might get them noticed a bit quicker.

Crap, there were bodies everywhere. Seriously, whoever said above that this show makes the deaths seem so desperate was right. I mean, people die on shows all the time, and there's all this meaningless slaughter, and yeah. But every death on this show seems so much stronger and more of a loss considering how small the human population is.

Posted by: cutecouple Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:16 pm

As far as I can tell, when Billy, Laura, and the gang hit the deck as the Cylons start firing in their direction, someone yells "Fu.." and then we cut to Apollo yelling to fire. It wasn't even closed-captioned, but someone said something.

Posted by: Aredhel Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:16 pm

Its more the idea of cleaning it off later, and the accompanying comfort...after extreme mental trauma, after all.



Exactly. There's much more of a punch attached to each and every death.

I was actually more affected by the bodies in the corridors than the death of the redshirts Targ and Socinus, because with each body its "but...but...there aren't any more people left!" where with the talking redshirts they're marked for death as soon as they, well, talk.

Posted by: Chicharraj Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:18 pm

Good episode. I was leaning forward screaming profanities at the screen and then crying at Tyrol's kind, kind lies (Couldn't think of his name in the episode. Since the Tyrol is a section of the Alps, my brain was trying to supply me with Germanic/Austrian names. I was thinking, "Boy, do I love Hansel. Uh no. Fritz. No... Um...."). Very emotional the whole time. I liked seeing Roslyn going into calm and wise mode, and the Cylons who boarded were really scary.

My boyfriend whined a little bit that the women in the show are all smart and the guys are dumb. I think Helo was getting to him.

Oh, and who was that dude they found who was talking to Apollo about how he wasn't cut out to fight and Apollo was like, "Me either"? When he started getting all excited at the end of the battle and talking about how great it was, I SO expected a stealth Centurion to appear and take him out. Didn't happen, but I was freaking out anyway.

And Kara's dad's music annoyed me after a while.

Posted by: wisteria Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:21 pm

In the podcast, Ron Moore says the Moses allusions were intended in that Adama-drowning-the-baby scene.

Can anyone figure out the whole text written up on Starbuck's wall? All I can see is, ".... We drink away the night, stroking my hair to the beat of his heart, watching a boy turn into a man."

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:21 pm

I thought the Cylons were on Caprica to make sure every human was dead. The Cylons aren't big on P.O.W.'s.

ETA: I like how the guy in the yellow jumpsuit said, "They don't look so big now." After the battle and Apollo looks over at the dead marine and says, "They still look pretty big." Apollo's got no illusions about the Cylons.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:21 pm

Oh yeah, I was waiting for that and was a little disappointed it didn't happen. I mean, you never do that shit, ever. It's just asking for trouble. And he got away with it. So the next time they battle the killer robots, he'll think it's a totally safe thing to do! AND THEN HE WILL BE MURDERIZED.

Posted by: Chicharraj Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:22 pm

Wisteria wrote

I don't know, but I thought it was about Zack. And that she put on Zack's jacket. No evidence, just a guess.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:24 pm

Good episode for the most part, but there were a couple of details that just really bugged me. In particular:

A frickin *Humvee*?

I can let slide most of the mundane, non futuristic, easily identifiable real world props that this show seems hardly interested in even trying to conceal, but for Christ's sake, this *is* supposed to be a technologically advanced society with Faster Than Light space drives, giant space battle cruisers, and the like, right? Not to mention a civilization in which any possible connection or contact with our own society was severed thousands of years ago? And yet they show a space fighter pilot in this futuristic society at the other end of the galaxy owning the very same vehicle that my brother drives every day in the National Guard? That just goes way past trying to keep things "familiar" for the home viewer and is just inexcusably lazy & cheap. If you can't spend the time & money to cobble together some kind of prop vehicle or rent one of the many old "futuristic" concept car show vehicles that Ford or Chrysler have sitting in a warehouse somewhere, then just don't go out of your way to yank us out of the story by showing these people driving completely ordinary, easily identifiable real world vehicles (it's not like it makes any sense to the story to have Starbuck & Helo trying to avoid detection by driving around in broad daylight in the Only Functioning Non Cylon Vehicle On The Planet). I couldn't quite tell on my TV, but was that at least a "Carpacia" licence plate she had on the front, or was it just an ordinary Canadian plate?

A while back I posted a theory on the "Speculation" thread (back when we were allowed to use it for speculation on the general nature of the Battlestar Galactica Universe) that the whole "All this has happened before/ all this will happen again" prophecy refers to not just great historical events but also mundane everyday things, and thus might be used as a convenient way to semi-mystically explain how this futuristic society with such a tenuous, long forgotten connection to our own world can nevertheless have such identical clothing styles, radios, and now vehicles as us, but at this point even that explanation will just seem like a cop out.

Also, there has been much justifiable praise for music on this show, but that amateurish, crappy little piano tune that Starbuck plays on her "radio" (and which is heard several times after that) just plain sucked. I'm fanwanking that it was a tape of her struggling to learn how to play the piano when she was ten years old that she decided to play for some sentimental reason.

And btw, as for the Kobol Killing Fields that Baltar supposedly sees: as far as I know we have absolutely no reason to think that the skulls that Baltar sees are any more real than Six is, or to believe anything that Six tells Baltar about Kobol history.

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:27 pm

We looked at it; it seemed to say something like "Delphi."

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:30 pm

I see your points Gonigal. While it would be cool to see them with non-petrol based cars you have to remember that they have to be careful with having things too high tech since the Cylons are machines and can hack into things. I'd rather they spend their money on the writing and the acting than the props dept. Who by the way are doing a damn good job on this show. The models last seasons...emosewa!

Posted by: wrighty555 Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:32 pm

I kind of had the same reaction about the humvee too. And how dumb is it to go riding in a humvee on a planet that is swarming with Cylons. You're suppossed to be hiding and running, not driving around in a tank. This episode wasn't as good as I thought. It was a tad bit dull. The story about killing the soldier with morphene was kinda drug out. One question. The Cylons have guns right? So why didn't the Cylon just shoot Apollo when he first saw him, like he did the presidents aide? I still love this show, but it was the first episode that kind of dissapointed me. Especially after the way the season premiere ended.

Posted by: Curare Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:36 pm

wrighty555, could you be more specific about that scene between the Cylon and Apollo. I'm not remembering it the same way.

Posted by: Hugin Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:40 pm

I think the most important thing that happened in this episode is, for the first time, we see Baltar moving from "I must hide my secret, I must survive", to "I must oppose Adama". Six has worked him and worked him to the point where he's now beginning to see Adama as an actual enemy, not just someone who could uncover his actions back on Caprica.

A lot of old school fans of the original series criticised this new show heavily for scrambling alot of the motivations and relationships in the original show. They hated that there was so much emnity between Apollo and Adama, since they had a very loving relationship in the original show. But tonight we get a great example of how in the time since we've met them, that relationship has evolved so much. Even as Apollo's mutiny still hangs over his head, the underlying love for Adama as his father is so strongly there.

In the same way, some folks didn't like Baltar going from being a villain (played with such gusto by the departed but fondly remembered genre TV vet John Colicos) to being just this weasely dupe. But now, maybe he's slowly shifting into a more clearly antagonistic position.

I think it's very cool, watching the pieces slide into place.


I like the (probaby retconned, but that's okay) explanation for the lack of bodies on Caprica. I loved the Billy/Dualla stuff. I want those crazy kids to work it out. And yay, Inquisitor Hadrian is around somewhere off camera, doing the best she can.

The humvee didn't bug me mostly because we saw them already in the Starbuck/Adama flashback when they were meeting and talking about Zak. If anything was distractingly "real world" it was the plastic packet of ramen noodles Helo was waving around.


Also one thing to keep in mind is, we're not exactly sure how much the planet is "swarming" or "crawling' with Cylons. We know there are some Cylons on the planet, but planets are, well, big. One look at Iraq or Afghanistan can show us how hard it can be to find people even if you're in a large organized force. We know a certain number of Cylons kept in proximity to Helo while he was with the Cylon Boomer, during a period where he was being herded around unbeknownst to him. But we don't know if there's a cylon patrol on every street corner or anything of the like. In fact, I'd argue the predominant evidence is there isn't that sort of blanket coverage, at least not any more in the mostly empty cities (probably there's a heavier presence around bases and such).

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:47 pm

Jammer mysteriously survived in the Small Arms room. I was like...uh, dude, why don't you just whip out a big sign that says, "I'm a Cylon"?

Posted by: Corikins Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:47 pm

Here in the shallow end of the pool...

Anybody else get a little chuckle when Apollo entered the door labeled "SMALL ARMS". I was all "um, nuh uh" and then I proceeded to totally miss his tank top.

I also found that The Arms tend to distract from the occasional distracting British accent bleed through.

Posted by: Chicharraj Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:52 pm

Polter-Cow

Yeah, for me it had a weird parallel with the Cylon they found during the miniseries - was it Leoben? Who was on the supply ship and reacting badly to some substance I can't remember. Gaeta's still high on my list of suspects....

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:53 pm

I too thought that Jammer was a definite Cylon when they found him. I thought they might shoot him just for general purposes. He ran in there to hide, oh-kay.

Re: Apollo and the "Small Arms" room. That did not occur to me, but I wish it had. Now I've got this great image of him being completely unable to enter the room.

Generally I think JB does quite well with the American accent, to the point that I don't even think about it. But tonight he did say "to-wards" and I was thrown for a moment.

Posted by: Avery Jul 22, 2005 @ 11:58 pm

No kiddin'. Don't remember his name, but talk about never having seen war movies before! Or, more like horror movies, 'cause the Galactica stuff reminded me strongly of Alien with the Centurions stalking about unseen killing everyone else.

It was Kobol that seemed like the war movie homage -- particularly since their sign/countersign were stolen from D-Day! ("Thunder"/"Flash")

So, when Starbuck told Helo the music was her dad, did no one else think "And he's a pretty good dancer, too!" Just me, then? Okay.

Posted by: Kev Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:02 am

Was that the actor who plays Gaeta that said "Previously on Battlestar Galactica?"

Posted by: Strega Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:06 am

I would have found some kind of "futuristic" concept car way more distracting than the Humvee. It also would have dated faster; Humvees aren't that different in style from the Jeeps of 60 years ago.

Posted by: Arminius Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:22 am

Not as good as last week, but pretty darn good.

Centurions are scary. I wondered why their right hand wasnt always a gun. Now I know. They killed a lot of Galactica's crew, replacing them will have to be addressed at some point.

Billy and Duala - don't care.

So Starbuck is a painter and her dad was a pianist. Hm, weird.

Baltar wakes up surrounded by skulls, thats awesome!

Socinus' death scene was straight out of Black Hawk Down.

Love Cally and her filthy little mouth.

Posted by: Avery Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:31 am

Kev, I think that was Jamie Bamber (Apollo) doing the "previously on".

Posted by: complex kid Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:35 am

Honestly, the humvee didn't bother me at all. I mean, what else would Starbuck drive? It just fits somehow, and it made me love her all the more. (Which is odd, because IRL I hate those things with a fiery passion.) Besides, she probably needs it to haul all those art supplies around, right?

I'm also loving Kelly (the new guy in CIC) - his facial expressions are perfect.

Posted by: Warden Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:48 am

That totally bugged me. Crashdown supposed to be in charge and then he says: "He's your man, chief".

What a wuss. Too bad Baltar didn't tell him anything. Isn't he still vice president?

Posted by: ohstella Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:50 am

Am I the only one thinking that if this episode indicated Jammer as a possible cylon, then it also indicated Dualla, who was the only one alive where they found her, and had sustained only pretty minor injuries? Maybe I should head on over to her thread, see if anyone else is thinking what I'm thinking...

And, yeah, maybe it's just relief to be around a female that he's probably fairly sure isn't a cylon, but Helo totally wants to do Starbuck. In the Humvee, probably.

Posted by: SuperMex Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:55 am

I am in love with the pacing on this show. Things happen. EPIC.

Don't know where to start. Love the Cylons. The utter fear they inspire among the humans is so much more powerful than claws or strength or swiftness or superior firepower. Although that is bitchin'. I loved that the pilots' first reaction to the centurions wasn't a smartass remark, or ballsy gunfire. They ran. Cool.

Tigh is still my favorite character. Shrug. He's an effective commander in a situation as difficult as anything Adama faced. He's controlled, respectful of his subordinates and, like last week, he makes informed decisions. (They may not be good ones, but they're well-thought-out.) I thought the subplot with Lee was well-done; Lee is young and quick to judge -- Tigh is, to his credit and the writers', mature. (No comments from the Peanut Gallery.) And, yeah, still my type.

Mitigation: Apollo and Starbuck are a wee bit sanctimonious for me (it's a peril of the sci-finiverse.) I still like them, with their artfully-arranged smudges that emphasize all that bone structure, but the smug we-know-best thing is done better by the Cylons. Eh, I'll get over it.

Posted by: Wildog27 Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:00 am

You guys have said almost everything that I like in this ep, except one thing: the sound design. Heaing the clanking and the screams from other parts of Galactica really did more than seeing the bodies. You knew what the Cylons were doing and what was happening to those people.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:03 am

Yeah, that's always a good way to convey that sort of visceral fear to the audience. As soon as they came across the Cylons, I knew they were fucked because they'd just come back from flying Vipers, you know? They weren't properly armed for combat. There was no choice but to run for their frakkin' lives.

Posted by: roofietoof Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:04 am

Billy and Dualla-- Aw, they're so cute. I like that she had an interest in protecting his family jewels. Except.... weren't they dancing together at the Colonial Day party? No way was that 2 weeks ago.

Cally and Tyrol-- Aw, they're so cute, love me some dirty deckhands. Hope TPTB don't try to do the shipper thing. They're sweet enough as it is.

Helo and Starbuck-- Aw, they're so cute. And clueless, utterly clueless. Hope TPTB don't try to do the shipper thing. I like the brother/sister dynamic thing going on there.

Crashdown and Baltar-- Aw, they're so cute. Total lunacy is only endearing to a certain point. Hope TPTB don't try to--- wait, I'd actually pay good money to see that.

Apollo and Tigh-- Aw, they're so cute. I have nothing else to add. They're both just cute.

Posted by: SuperMex Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:16 am

Wildog27

Yes! Old-school FX! Effective!

roofietoof You're a genius. And so cute. Heh.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:26 am

That was kind of an odd moment, it almost seemed to be breaking the fourth wall a bit, with the characters laughing at the term because they somehow knew that it was just a goofy TV substitution for the "real" phrase. And yet it did seem to be the characters laughing at the dialog, not the actors breaking character.



If you're talking about the beginning of the show, when Apollo & his crew first run into the Centurion, it kind of looked like that particular Centurion didn't happen to have the retractable guns feature that we usually see in their "arms", but instead was equipped with some kind of mass of tentacles (possibly at least semi-organic) where their guns would normally be (this shot of that tentacle mass also seems to be in the new credits sequence). Later dialog by Tigh as to their probable plan suggests an explanation for this: If their goal is to take control of certain areas of the ship, shut down life support and eventually turn the Galactica's guns on the rest of the fleet, at least some of the centurions are going to have to be able to manually manipulate the ship's controls, and that weird-ass tentacle thing is probably a lot better for that than a retractable gun.

Anyway, I have to say that in spite of my irritation with the whole Humvee thing, the most interesting part of the episode for me was still Starbuck visiting her old apartment. Not even so much for the glimpse of Starbuck's personal life as just the sheer bizarreness of the situation: Humanity has been all but destroyed, the handful of survivors are huddled refugees on the run halfway out in uncharted space, and yet somehow Kara gets to spend one last afternoon hanging out in her apartment, playing some of her really crappy music (or her Dad's, apparently), going through her stuff, and from the looks of things, quite possibly doing a few bong hits with Helo during the commercial break. She'd probably better not mention any of this to anyone when she gets back to Galactica, it would almost be too cruel to the rest of humanity who will never have the opportunity to see their old homes again (except, of course, for those with SixChips in their heads).

Posted by: Cimmerius Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:38 am

Tyrol loves Cally! Tyrol loves Cally!

Did they say for sure if they took care of all of the Cylons? I don't think they were ever sure how many there were but they seemed pretty confident they had gotten them all at the end.

Actually, Six is normally making other people...

I'll show myself out.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:46 am

Jammer and Dualla are both up there on my list of suspected HuLons.

I was appalled that they chose to euthanize someone who was lucid and not requesting it.

Baltar's vision and conversation with Six. He sees a child drowned. Six talks about human sacrifice and then he witnesses Socinus being killed. Interesting play.

Apollo is a terrific officer.

Starbuck's smug and flashy. Tigh's right about not having kids, because, hey, Ellen would be the mother.

I really hope Dualla's not a Cylon.

Roslin rocks.

Posted by: Gella Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:25 am

I don't know if Dualla was in the room when the Cylons were there. I think she wandered in there afterwards, from the head, because she forgot something. I think she was more in shock from seeing all that carnage than hurt. Because once she snapped out of it, she was fine, except for a little scratch.
Tigh handled the situation well, considering.
Loved that they addressed the virus infecting all computers. And that Apollo called the Nuggets on not getting all the ships. He may not be fit to wear a uniform, but he is definitely a kick-ass officer.
Crashdown is just useless. And willing to remove responsibility from himself -- should've been his decision about Socinus.

Posted by: Kalbear Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:31 am

I actually didn't like it that much. I know it was supposed to be suspenseful. I know I was supposed to be worrying about the cylons blowing out the ship, but I just felt kind of distracted. Unlike last ep, where they frontloaded most of the non-tense scenes early on and then didn't touch on them at all until later, this kept jumping between tension! to Starbuck smoking a cigar.

I'm back to hating the Caprica bits. Damnit.

I'm annoyed that they spent so much time telling us what the cylons were doing instead of showing it. Yes, we've seen the bodies, but we don't have a clue about the firefights or the actions or anything; it's just a sequence of shots on a map. Why not show us the marines killing the cylons? Why not show us some of the depressurization bits? I know, I know - it would cost a lot in CGI - but the alternative was robbing the show of a lot of the drama.

And yeah, I didn't care about Socinus dying either.

All in all, I felt it was a letdown from last ep; while the beginning and end were strong, the middle was very, very slow.

Posted by: Irish Wolf Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:42 am

Gonigal, we'll have to agree to disagree on the music. I enjoyed it, but then I've always had a thing for solo piano pieces - I was probably the only kid in my entire second-grade class who actually enjoyed listening to Chopin's Polonaises.

I do have to agree with an earlier poster (whose name has slipped my mind - apologies!) that it seems extremely fitting for Kara's personal vehicle to be a military-grade HMMWV (pronounced "hum-vee"). Although given what we've seen of her piloting style, if I were Helo, I'd be putting on that seat belt...

Can't say I cared about Socinus dying, but I did care that it was poor Tyrol who had to do it. Crashdown just wanted to make Tyrol give the order (probably so he could feel better afterward), but I guess Tyrol feels the same as Lazarus Long about personal responsibility - "When the time comes, a real man shoots his own dog."

Not getting a "couples" vibe from Tyrol and Cally - more of a "big brother/little sister" thing there, I think. Might be something from Crash, though...

I did feel emotionally whipsawed there. Sadness over Tyrol having to kill Socinus (and for those who missed it, the alternative was for Socinus to die slowly and in agony - there was no third option), melancholy over Starbuck's last visit to her old place (and amusement that she took the time to score her remaining cigars), tension about the Cylons aboard Galactica and whether Apollo's party was going to shoot the President's group before the Cylons actually got to the aft Damage Control room, more melancholy over Lee and the Commander (I just can't bring myself to call him Bill) - whew!

Posted by: gamera87 Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:53 am

My favorite parts:

(1) the on-screen title "Enlisted head," to help us know it was a bathroom

(2) when Tigh told Apollo to get to the aft damage control "right fracking now," and Apollo confirmed, "Aft damage control, RFN."

Several times people said something like "Sitrap," to mean basically, "Tell me quickly what the situation is." Apollo said this very early on. What is the correct spelling/etymology of that "word"?

Posted by: WildeChild Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:06 am

The Humvee didn't really bother me. I thought Ron's podcasts from the beginning of last season really helped to explain his use of real life items. The visceral impact of the image of the mushroom clouds on Caprica is so strong because we understand that image. By using what we know he doesn't have to waste time coming up with psuedo-scientific devices and explain how they work. Same with day to day stuff. Soap is soap. A Humvee for a military chick works for me, even in far off galaxies ... as long as it's an H1 . YMMV

I'm glad they are evolving Baltar's character. I found his constant craziness wearing. He and Six need to get on with the plan, which they are doing. If Baltar every gets his act together and goes Cylon, he could be one formidable opponent. Unlike the Baltar on BSG:TOS.

I'm still questioning who was really shooting at Tyrol and his group. In past episodes the toasters were always the ones sent out to do the fighting and the humanoid cylons were giving the orders. However a toaster wouldn't hide and then shoot at them. Toasters aren't exactly about the finesse. They'd just tromp on over and blast away. So that leaves a humanoid Cylon who would have to have been in the woods with no toaster support or backups nearby. I find this unlikely.

The glimpse into Starbuck's psyche on Caprica was really interesting. The first season I watched the show because of the plotting, the production quality, and the character dynamics. However it has taken me a while to warm up to the characters individually. This season it feels like they are all starting to hit their stride and I find them more engaging.

I can't recall any show I've watched that rivals this shows ability to keep me on the edge of my seat. The show delivers an enemy who is physically frightening (the toasters) and intellectually equal if not advantaged (six et al). Every death is meaningful, even if we know nothing about the person, because the entire race's chance for survival diminishes with each. We don't know who the traitors are so we are always suspicious of anyone who survives an attack or shows up in an unexpected place. We questions people's motives and second-guess their mistakes. Ron makes us share the underlying paranoia of the colonists. All the characters are flawed and we never know if their issues will pop up and effect their decisions. Add that to an extremely well executed production, great sound and lighting effects and I think this show blows away almost everything on TV for sheer suspense.

I thought so too. It was surprising how much tension that added.

That would be awesome!

Posted by: und1sk0 Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:21 am

Good gods, with his wife? I would certainly hope not!

Posted by: His Lady Dog Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:26 am

Cutecouple, that one had my head spinning. I know it was Baltar's vision but I kept thinking that perhaps Adama is sharing that vision, being a part of it even as he's in the coma.



Me. He's a handsome man and clearly Thrace thinks so too. First her dedication to her faith and then her art. I'm liking all of her angles and edges.



Girl crush doesn't begin to cover it for me, excantabrigian, I'm with you on the truly, madly, deeply. I haven't loved a character this much since the early to mid-X-Files Dana Scully. It threatening my love for Him who's bitch I am...well not really but if I weren't female and straight...

Overall, loved the episode. Love that they're all unkempt in the midst of the action. Love that they don't always make the right decisions for the right reasons. I did realize though that Cally and Tyrol both leave me cold as characters and always have. When scenes feature just the two of them I kinda tune out.

Posted by: thelabrat Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:40 am

I've been taking stuff like this as more of a storytelling tool than anything else myself. Other examples would include Starbuck's old radio, the doctor smoking around his cancer ridden patient (and can I tell you how glad I am that the letters in the sci-fi wire have finally stopped arguing about that one), the semi-archaic look of a lot of stuff in general, and the belief of the colonials in a pantheon of gods (generally considered by western society as being less advanced than montheastic religions). But how that tool is being used depends to some extent on what year it is when the fleet finally finds earth. Right now I'm viewing it as a way to show that this civilization is in some ways more advanced than us, but in others much more similar than FTL drives and the like would imply.



So glad someone else had the weird mix of reactions to this moment that I did. I've decided that they got tired of reshooting the scene when the actors cracked up and just sorta threw it in there.



Word. And also heh. And a hee for SixChips. Sounds like a new Borg snack food somehow.



Agreed. I haven't seen the original in a while but I don't think they every explained in the show why Baltar was hangin with the Cylons. Perhaps we are watching that backstory. I've basically been enjoying seeing the situation come into place while the original series basically took place after everything had gone down from my memory.



At one point I said, "Awww. BSG does horror flick." I was thinking specifically of how Farscape did the same with Eat Me.



You know I hadn't thought of it at the time but yeah.



More of the Crashdown is incompetent theme I figure. Boomer said way back in "33" that he was just some refugee from Triton she'd been saddled with. Presumably he was the first of the nuggets...perhaps another fleet washout in some way. In any case his lack of experience was where I went with it. My exact words to my TV screen were, "Oh and I'm a schmuck."

And in regards to the various theories on Dualla being a cylon... I had the same reaction to the first guy they showed (the DC guy who shoulda been smacked for bragging about the Cylons not being so big). But didn't have it when they first found DUalla. But at the end when D and Billy were being all cutesy, I thought that one of them would definitely die this season. At which point the D as Cylon idea totally worked.

And for now that is all.

Posted by: buttersister Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:41 am

I took it as Sitrep - situation report.

Yeah, Crash, that's Vice President Baltar to you. Frakking Batshit Crazy VP Baltar, but still. And it's not like Crash has all that much command cred at the moment.

Posted by: Skyrocket Jul 23, 2005 @ 4:12 am

For some reason I really liked that guy Jammer. Maybe it was the Kill Bill jumpsuit.

Posted by: Low Fang Jul 23, 2005 @ 4:45 am

I'm trying to like the new look and sound of the opening credits. I'm trying real hard...

Ah, what light through yonder breezeway breaks? It is the dawn, and Dualla is the sun! Deny thy Billy, and refuse thy Dee! (Or not). Good to see those star-crossed lovers finally get a little "quiet time" by the end of the ep. I was beginning to worry 'ol Billy was gonna die a virgin.

Strangely, given the immediacy of the action on the BSG, it just didn't grip me. Too many shots of people wandering down darkened corridors, tripping over mangled bodies (which, IMHO, weren't mangled enough --- the way that first centurion slice 'n diced Flyboy, the dead should have been more dismembered), and then bumping into locked doors and starting the whole thing over again. Feh.

Did, however like the denouement: The way the threads of Prez / Apollo / CIC exposition / last-of-the-cylons all finally came together at the aft damage control. I was wondering how Apollo & co. could possibly hope to take out the toasters: Catching them from behind as they unloaded on the Prez worked out quite believably. I even bought Apollo's Hail Mary over-head shot at the leaping centurion. Even Jammer's nervous self-congratulations seemed authentic: It's what greenies do once the battle is over to convince themselves they're up for the next one. It's vets like Apollo who know it doesn't get any better.

The whole Portrait of Starbuck as a Starving Artist had me scratching my head. The best combat pilot in the fleet is really just an emo artsy-fartsy type? Huh? These are not two great tastes that go great together. This just soooo fracks with my head. Is Kara's cynical tough-chick demeanor just a carefully constructed facade to mask her refined sensibilities from the rest of the flight deck? (This is the same girl who grudge-fracked Balthar, remember?) Her whole, "the rest of the human race is bemoaning what they lost, but I don't give a frack because I lost it all long before" speech just didn't fit in with her surroundings. Or was this some revelation about her relationship with Zack? (I did notice how when she put on Zack's old jacket, she seemed much comforted --- or that could have just been the big stogie she found in the pocket --- dunno). Hell, maybe all the artsy stuff belonged to Zack --- ever think of that? Remember, everybody but Adama seems to think Zack was never meant to be a combat pilot... Anyway, there is much to mull over in these revelations of Starbuck's past.

(Oh, and as somebody else said, it would be frackin' cool if Dirk Benedict showed up as Starbuck's Da. Heh.)

And yes, the humvee --- complete with US Army standard camou --- was a bit jarring. Couldn't they have slapped a little shape-altering fiberglass on it, or sumfink?

Meanwhile, back on Kobol, I'm really, really, getting to dislike Crash: That "He's your man, Chief" line was such a pussy thing to say. Dammit, you're the leader; lead! (This does not mean push around the VP, BTW --- a man obviously on the verge of a nervous breakdown does not need to be bullied about like yr shaking him down for his milk money. Wanker.)

Otherwise, there are still quite a few unanswered questions on Kobol: Canna ye nay see all the boones strewn aboot? Who's doin' all the shootin'? Where / when is Balthar's bouncing baby cylon going to make an entrance? When will Tyrol have had enough and bitch-slap the hell out of Crash?

Finally, I hope Grace Park's absence on tonights ep means she's taken a little time off for a few acting lessons. Seriously.

EDIT: Don't know how I forgot this. At the very end, after Apollo and Tigh trade one-up-manship-isms, and Apollo points out that Adama will be the final judge of all their actions, it hit me: Adama is, in every sense, the Alpha Male of the Colonial Fleet. He is The Highest Ranking Military Officer not just in the Fleet, but in the Human Race. Makes him a one-man JCS, and I guess he pretty much can decide everyones fate as he sees fit.

Posted by: firestarter Jul 23, 2005 @ 5:12 am

Hopefully he won't knock her up too. But that scene was a parallel to when Boomer was lounging in the bomb shelter, with her leg all naked and stuff.
Another parallel moment: Adama holding the baby. I thought he was going to snap its neck. That would have been awesome, in an incredibly cold-blooded way.

Making the red shirt marine guy a true red shirt.

When I heard her name, I kind of laughed though. Had an image of her interrupting the Cylon hunt to interrogate the crew on who let them in.

Hee. Apollo's biceps are my favorite character on this show.

Wait, there was a tank top? Must have been hella engrossed to have missed it.

I know that dumb prop is just a MaGuffin, but it looks too fragile to be so important. Can they glue it back together if it breaks? Will it still work?

This might be what they're going for, but it still feels sexy to me. Could be my bias. Or just that Mary McDonnell has so much charisma, and Jamie so much pretty, it comes out that way accidentally.

Ya' know, I didn't mind Crash-and-Burn there. He was overdoing it, but he was trying to do that 'smack them to keep their attention and keep them from getting killed' thing that others do better. I loved Baltar's quick, repentant 'yes sir.' He's still very smart, and realizes he must fall in line for the sake of his own survival.

I also thought Crashdown's abdication of command to allow Tyrol to have some control over this man's death, unlike Targ's death, was a good call, and not because of shirking or fear. He might be learning his lesson.

That's easy. Take one Lee Adama, smear it all over him. Presto! Sexy blood!

Posted by: Harrison Fjord Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:50 am

Didn't she say something about it all being "[her] father's"? I got the impression that either the art is actually his or it's something she did out of some frakked up relational issues that she doesn't really have an attachment to herself.

Gotta say, I'm loving the way 6 is playing Baltar. He was interesting enough when he was simply a narcisist playing both sides out of self-promotion. The idea that he may make the move fully to the Cylon side out of a frakked up belief that Adama would drown his child, which he still hasn't actually seen any proof exists, shows just how worn down constantly having her around is making him. I wonder if this is a commentary on marriage or something - I sometimes have to get away from my wife, and Baltar doesn't even have the benefit of being friends or even really in love with 6.

Posted by: firestarter Jul 23, 2005 @ 7:15 am

I think she said the music was her father's, the artwork her's.
I loved this episode. Really intense, some of it less so than others, but even when they cut away to a B or C story, it was brief and moved along quickly, so I don't mind. And I can honestly say I didn't miss the lovely Grace Park whatsoever.

Next time, give Roslyn the gun. (I really wish they had given the President a different last name, instead of two women's first names. It always sounds diminutive to call her 'Roslyn,' or Laura. She should have a good hard last name.) Once again, that steely calm reasserted itself. She's so much cooler than Tigh.

The Kobol scenes are always reminiscent of Vietnam War movies, to me. Apocalypse Now, The Killing Fields, The Deer Hunter, Full Metal Jacket. In the look of them, but also that sense of being lost in a hostile place, surrounded by you-don't-know-what, and you're frakked.

I'm liking this season's Tyrol much better than last. He was a tool when he was dealing with Sharon. But that aspect of him we saw in the mini--he takes it really hard when his people die--is at the fore here, and it makes him sympathetic. But how much would it have sucked for him if they'd got rescued right after the morphine?

The skulls and the hint of cannabilism is this former paradise reminded me of the Anasazi discoveries. And I'm not sure if it happened or not, but I keep thinking one of the most significant lines in the series--"this has all happened before and will happen again"--could come into play. If the humans really were as savage as Six seems to think, and then invented robots to be their slaves, and then the slaves unfortunately grew consciousness, then the whole attack could be a big payback for past crimes. Whether real or not, I like the way Six is once again skillfully manipulating Baltar into the Cylon's camp. This Baltar's collusion with the Cylons is so much more interesting than the original series.

Grateful to Ron Moore and the writers for another great one. Bring on more.

Posted by: FinFangFoom Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:07 am

FYI, the music was by Philip Glass, called Kyoko's House from the soundtrack to the movie Mishima, A Life in Four Chapters.

Posted by: Frost Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:27 am

This was one of my favorite parts of the episode. Just because combat pilots show no fear when they're in the cockpit, doesn't automatically make them cool under fire when they're being chased through dark corridors and forced into hand to claw combat. I thought it was a great decision to have the kickass pilots have to really fight through their fears.

Posted by: Morphine Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:28 am

In the podcast, Ron says it's her father's jacket.

Count me in on liking this episode. A lot.

Posted by: Hugin Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:37 am

Hey, Lee tried and she wouldn't take it, which I thought was an interesting choice. I don't think it was as simple as "oh I'm too peaceful and civilian-y to shoot a nasty gun". The way she said "I...can't"

Perhaps later events will prove me wrong, but it reminded me of the way people who are either religious leaders in some religions, or people going through certain kinds of spiritual journeys or rituals are banned from certain behaviors. No contact with blood, or no killing, or no eating of certain foods, or no sex, etc. Secretary of Education or President Laura Roslin might fire a gun in a tough spot, but maybe a Prophet Roslin can't.

Posted by: cutecouple Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:58 am

I do recall Ron Moore saying Aliens informed the Galactica sequences somehow. Interesting podcast. Ron Moore isn't totally happy with the way the teaser came out, though the edit was pretty tough.

Posted by: rustler Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:01 am

I love the pacing of this show, all the crazy-mayhem-shooting stuff so carefully intermixed with the quiet moments of human interaction. And it's the latter thing that makes the show so affecting -- showing all these characters as people, flawed, feeling people caught in the midst of all this craziness that gives the action that feeling of desperation. These aren't cardboard "heroes" facing off against "formless evil", they're vulnerable and scared and coping the best they can -- and sometimes they rise up to defeat the odds... and sometimes they don't. The tension is brilliantly managed.

A few thoughts on things people have been commenting on:

Re: Helo and Starbuck. Heh, I think Helo just has bedroom eyes. I don't really get a romantic vibe from the two of them so much as "friends who both have carnal weaknesses, and each understands where the other is coming from."

And count me in on the madly girlcrushing on Starbuck team. She's one of the most real feeling characters I've ever seen on a TV show. Some people seem thrown by her painting, to me it feels right -- like she expressed with mad dashes of color on canvas or her wall, what she couldn't necessarily share with other people because she's so damaged and guarded.

Re: Cally and Tyrol -- I thought Tyrol laughed not because of the inherent silliness of the word motherfracker, but because he was surprised Cally had said an intensified bad word that he didn't expect from her (it's always "worse" when you stick mother in front of it, isn't it? *g*).

Posted by: EWG Gestalt Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:32 am

I'm still a little unsure quite what to make of the Adama-as-Moses scene.

What struck me as odd was how utterly ineffectual Baltar was: after all, Adama was marching not much faster than the Centurions on Caprica. He certainly shouldn't have been able to make it to the river before Baltar caught up with him. The only reason why he did is that Baltar was offering up his best impression of decapitated poultry, buzzing around Adama like an annoying fly instead of someone out to protect "his child."

So, does this suggest that we need to see a new, ruthless, efficient Baltar before he can take on Adama? And does Adama's mechanical trudge to the river suggest an Adamalon (Cylold Man?) is in the works?

Posted by: WildeChild Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:35 am

I thought she said that others were fighting to get back what they had lost and she was fighting because that is what she does, she doesn't really care about what she had. I thought that was really telling. Her art is a way of expressing pain and anger. I can believe a side of her fitting in the angry, hard drinking, confrontational, chip on their shoulder artist category.

I think the mess that is her apartment fits with the mess that is her emotional landscape. I like that she has contradictions and layers. I like that she excels at some things and is a complete disaster at others. Painting is the first really healthy outlet for her emotions that we have seen. Unlike her shagging Baltar.

Posted by: Hugin Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:37 am

Baltar's inability to catch/stop Adama from drowning the baby just struck me as dream logic/constraints. That happens to me all the time in dreams, I can't quite do really simple things that would solve problems in the real world. Dialing phone numbers in keypads or catching up to people or starting cars or whatever. Dreams kind of have this way of railroading the plot, for me at least. Unless I'm really aware that I'm dreaming, but that doesn't always happen.

Posted by: excantabrigian Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:57 am

Low Fang - sadly, I can say that artsy types have definitely been known to grudge f***. Hey, it was a long time ago! I think Starbuck's Baltar thing fits perfectly with what we know about her now.

FinFangFoom - thanks muchly for the Philip Glass credit! Now I can start looking for that music for my very own! Whee!

rustler - I agree with your reading of Cally & Tyrol. I thought just the same thing, that his reaction was to her saying such a naughty word. And I agree with the previous poster who felt more of a big bro/little sis vibe from them than a romantic one.

Hugin - yup to the dream logic. That was my reaction during the ep, that they did a really good job of showing that creepy can't run, can't walk, can't escape, can't catch up thing of dreams. Baltar's weird run and Adama's slow walk only intensified that disturbing feeling.

And re. the general conversation about the Humvee and the ramen and all the rest of the props - gotta say again that I love the odd combination of familiar and futuristic, and once again I credit Blade Runner with this kind of art direction. I was LOVING the ramen! Yea to our wonderful, fracked-up human Starbuck, who only has ramen in her apt!

Posted by: ersatzreality Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:04 am

ITA that this episode was relaxing, in an odd way. Starbuck and Helo getting into her old apartment was like hitting a brick wall - the story advancement just stopped dead.

And, why, why, why - if there were Cylons on board, why wasn't a basestar close behind? Even if space communications doesn't travel FTL, if I were the Cylon that planned this little adventure I'd've added some sort of probe-droid-y thing to take the location back.

Posted by: painter Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:12 am

In Baltar's tiny, frakked-up mind, as Adama was carrying the baby to the lake, then wading in, and even as he lowered the child into the water, I wasn't thinking about Moses. But...

I was thinking: Is he gonna drown that kid? Or baptize it?

As for the disconnect between artsy types and stone killers? There isn't one as far as I'm concerned. Starbuck's apartment made perfect sense to me.

Posted by: Tenebrae Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:36 am

Thanks, FinFangFoom. After the episode, I went and got out my soundtrack to The Hours because I was suddenly in the mood for it, but I didn't realize that Phillip Glass had actually written that piano piece. Yet another reason to love this show.

Okay, I have to confess, I wasn't in the room the whole time this episode was airing. (I really have to pack, I'm moving on Sunday, and I have the ep on tape anyway, for a proper viewing later.) So I walked into the room when Starbuck and Helo were breaking into what turned out to be Starbuck's apartment, and when I saw it, my first thought was "Is this a nursery school or something? Why are they breaking into a day care?". It doesn't bother me for Starbuck to be an artist, though. And I was fine with the Humvee. It seemed appropriate.

Oh, and Dualla has really lovely eyes. Not that this is really relevant to anything, but I was noticing it especially last night. Accentuated, of course, by that make-up included in everyone's emergency supplies.

Posted by: Capt Stripe Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:01 am

Last episode I commented on the lack of officer/enlisted bathrooms and this week we get a visit to the enlisted head.

I'd like to comment now on the lack of video from the Grace Park Maxim shoot--they should be able to work that in somewhere...

Posted by: Frost Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:09 am

It’s interesting that even though Lee is accused of mutiny – which would rank only below treason in the pantheon of heinous military crimes – not only do his pilots follow his orders without question, but so do the marines. Two of the marines were privates, so I can see where they might, but when he commanded the older, and presumably higher ranked, marine to escort Roslin and Billy to Sick Bay, the guy automatically accepted Lee’s authority, as did the guard from the brig. I wonder, if it comes down to a choice between Tigh and Lee, who the crew would follow?

Posted by: adso Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:20 am

Loved the ep., and it certainly is interesting separating all of the major characters from each other, but I hope they don't keep this on too long.

Jumping between three locations is starting to spread the narrative out too thin, I wish they'd at least wrap one of them up (My vote would be for Kobol).

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:22 am

I think that's interesting too. I think there's also a strong loyalty for the Prez among the troops too, and with Adama temporarily out of commission, their loyalty may be with her and Apollo more than Tigh.

I liked this episode. I found it suspensful, and I loved the juxtaposition of the relative peacefulness of Kara's apartment to the tenseness on the ship. I loved that they used screams and the sounds of gunfire. Imagination is often scarier than actually seeing carnage.

I'm not sure if I think the skulls are real or in Baltar's mind because I'm not sure if I think the people shooting at the team are Cylons. I agree with previous posters who say that hiding while shooting really isn't their style. Their style is more "let's overpower the humans with brute strength." The only "sneakiness" we've seen is when the humlons are infiltrating the humans.

The humvee didn't bother me. We've seen plenty of other instances in this show with futuristic equipment mingled with stuff that we see everyday. I kind of like it because it makes it easier to relate to their world. It's a sci-fi show, but the technology isn't what it's about. It's about humanity trying to survive and too much unfamiliar technology, imho, would distract from the people.

Posted by: lawdawg2981 Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:51 am

As for the humvee, I’m not as bothered by it as some people seem to be because lets face it at some point technology for a certain thing can’t go much further. Want a personal vehicle that a human can drive? Has to have basically the same shape as a car today because of the shape of the human body, what you need for eye lines and such. Maybe you have a better and less messy fuel, but the shape will probably be about the same.
Same thing for the whole “surely they have a cure for cancer by now.” I don’t now what the current tech for curing cancer is but it would not surprise me to learn that diseases and ills like cancer are still around, we will never get to a Star Trek world were disease is in the past.
Still love the use of the old title music when Socinus was dying, very nice.

Posted by: wrighty555 Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:51 am

It was the scene where they were scrambling away from the Cylons and they were running up the ladder, he turned around unloaded everything he had, and then the Cylon whipped out it's claws and instead of shooting him charged him. This allowed for him to be rescued in the nick of time. I know it's trite, but it kinda bugged me.


The Humvee didn't bother so much as it shouldn't be there, but more that how are you going to hide when YOU ARE DRIVING IN A TANK?

Posted by: painter Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:02 pm

I can only assume that it's because it's her car and she has the keys.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:24 pm

While it's true that any attempt to depict a piece of "future" tech is bound to date fairly rapidly, there's no getting around the fact that this show is, in fact, set in a technologically advanced "futuristic" society. But more importantly, it's a society that is thousands of years removed from any contact with our own society, so that any prominent display of a specific recognizable brand or model of car from our own world is gonna leap out as being "wrong" (and even throwing in some lame line about Starbuck being a collector & restorer of vintage automobiles isn't going to help like it might in a more conventional "futuristic" setting). I can understand Moore's intent to make it easier for us to "relate" to the characters by placing them in familiar surroundings, but if he wants us to be able to at all suspend our disbelief and accept the idea that these people are on another planet walking among the ruins of a spacefaring civilization and not just a couple of actors wandering around the seedier parts of Toronto, he's got to occasionally show us something a little different from what we can see every day just by looking out our window.

And it so happens that in movies & TV, cars seem to be the one thing that most firmly ties a scene to a certain era; they're big, obvious, ever changing hunks of current technology that are a pretty much ubiquitous feature of the landscape. If you want to film a story involving two people walking down the street that happens to take place in the 1940's you could probably find a residential street within five miles of your home that would be perfectly suited for the scene, but the one thing you would definitely have to do to make the audience accept that this was the 1940s would be to move all the modern cars and rent a bunch of vintage period cars to park in the driveways and drive past your characters. Likewise, countless sci-fi stories have had no problem with showing their protagonists coming out of their perfectly ordinary, non futuristic looking homes, but once our hero gets to his driveway having him get into a 1998 Toyota Celica just ain't gonna cut it, you have to show some sort of vehicle that is not a part of our present day world.

If nothing else, just stick some kind of plywood or plastic shell on a dune buggy chassis and keep it kind of out of focus in the background. Or, if you can't come up with anything that doesn't look as ridiculous as those stupid bumpy white boxes that Jean Claude Van Dame drove around in in Timecop, then just don't show any damm car, find a relatively futuristic looking subway station and show your character commuting to work. Like I said, it's not like there was really any important plot reason why we had to see Starbuck's car, especially when they're eventually gonna have to steal some kind of futuristic vehicle to get off of Carpricia anyway.



Well, as long as we are stuck with pretending not to notice the incongruity of all this..., while the Starbuck we know from Galactica is definitely a perfect fit for driving a Humvee (and I mean a real U.S. Army surplus Humvee like we saw, not some candy-ass bullshit yuppie status symbol civilian Hummer), for the Starbuck who apparently lived in that apartment I can't help thinking that a better fit would be a new model Volkswagon Beetle, or maybe even a junky old school "classic" Beetle, with a variety of Greenpeace & wicca bumper stickers slapped on the back. (Or maybe I'm just thinking of some people that *I* know who've lived in apartments identical to Starbuck's, right down to the unfortunate wall mural and occasional cut offs of electricity.)



Except (and this has also been discussed in the KLG II thread) why *wouldn't* Helo be assuming that Starbuck's probably a Cylon? Like Boomer, she shows up completely unexpectedly, out of the blue (flying a Cylon Raider, yet), and when he first sees her she's even killing Six, just like Boomer did when she suddenly turned up out of nowhere. Not to mention that Starbuck turned up right after Helo discovered that Boomer was a Cylon, which he would assume ruined whatever plans the Cylons had for he & Boomer. You would think Helo would at least suspect that Starbuck was just Boomer's replacement in the experiment. Hell, he might even suspect that perhaps sooner or later perfect Cylon copies of *every* really hot woman that he was never able to score with will turn up to have amazing sex with him. In other words, there's a fair chance that Helo secretly suspects that Starbuck *is* a Cylon, but hey, why rock the boat?

Posted by: Cimmerius Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:46 pm

Can anyone tell me if the podcast for episode contains spoilers like the last one?

Posted by: jthomas666 Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:50 pm

This show is just blowing me away. Damn.

I have to vote for the old theme. The opening part had a mournful, elegaic quality that I really liked. Then the drums got you all psyched up, with the final hard cut to the Galactica battle badge.

Impressed with how little we saw of the centurions, and how well the director/writer/producers made budget restraints work for them.

Shot of the centurion diving over the barricade and Apollo blowing it away--one of the coolest single shots EVER. Not just on Galactica, not just on TV. EVER.

The ending brought to mind something Moore said on one of the pod casts last year. They don't want to end a show with a plot moment (ie, we've beaten the Cylons), but a character moment--Tigh and Apollo, and Tigh's instant classic final line, "Thank the Gods I never had kids."

Posted by: Gella Jul 23, 2005 @ 12:52 pm

I didn't get that at all. Her place was a total mess, but there was nothing Greenpeacey about her. There are quite a few military types out there who joined because of some inner issues to resolve and wholeheartedly embraced that new military identity, because it gave them a sense of belonging, yet still have some other sides to them. I don't think it's a stretch to see an angry artist Starbuck, who listens to her dad's piano music for nostalgic value while smoking cigars and driving a beat up military vehicle. Also, the art wasn't some peaceful landscape stuff -- it was messed up and angry. It all seemed to make sense. Also the car didn't jar me at all. I would've been much more disappointed if it were some futitistic vehicle.
As someone said upthread, not all Centurions seem to have retractable guns. And based on the aftermath of the carnage, they seem quite happy clawing people instead of shooting them.

I honestly get the sense Helo doesn't really care. As he said, he'd been on that planet alone far too long. He may have lost all hope of every getting off it, and as long as there is companionship, he is better off.

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:02 pm

I think the apartment is part of Starbuck's private life. A car is out there for people to see, and I think it would more reflect her public persona of a kick ass military gal.

Posted by: Number6 Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:12 pm

Couple of things:

1. Jammer said "I'm just a knuckledragger!" which cracked me up, since that's a slang term for someone in the Navy who holds the machinist's mate rating. This is someone who knows 10,000 things to do with wrenches but picked up a sidearm once in basic training and that was it.

2. Will someone please make the idjits down on Kobol take off the shiny collar devices? That's been bugging me for two weeks. I was in the Navy and even I knew that you don't wear shiny stuff in combat!

3. I was a bit confused this episode between sound design and soundtrack. Sometimes the clanging bits I thought were happening on the ship, other times I thought maybe it was part of the music. I guess I'm just dense.

4. In last week's podcast, he said that Tigh is the exact guy you want when the poop hits the air circulator but the last guy you want when things are "normal." Damn he was right.

As for Gonigal's issues with the Veee-hicle, (I can't resist you, Roscoe) it's not a conceit of the show that "Look! Everything is so cool in space!". For example, remember the opening of the second part of 2001: A Space Odyssey? The whole concept there was showing us how everything was going to look in the future. The vidphone, the zero-g head and all that. Star Trek was the same way. In BSG land, the whole idea is that these people are not different from us. It's not an expectation that they must do everything in some cool whamodyne manner. These people still use sound powered phones, just like our Navy of today, and have toilets and everything else just like us. They just happen to have some more of the space tech. So I'm not torn up about internal combustion cars.

I do think they could have chosen a slightly different design, but I think it also plays into the "all this has happened already and will happen again" mythos of the show.

Posted by: Limber Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:38 pm

Billy and Dee are adorable (and pretty good little actors to boot!), I like their storyline. Honestly, I love the pacing of all of it -- the Caprica scenes, the Galactica scenes... maybe the only thing that was a little off was Kobol, but I didn't care. They're achieving a fabulous balance of character work v. epic scale.

It might have been a little heavy on the Glass, and I looove Glass. But I think I could even mean it was a little too loud, rather than overused.

As for Kara's flat, it looks like she never really let anyone in there. If Helo's her friend from way back, and he's never seen it before, than Kara could easily regard that place as a bolthole. She eats outside, she socialises outside, she basically lives her life outside, but that place is where she goes to mindlessly veg -- pop in a cassette, light a couple of candles, take out the paints and cigars and just sort of sink into a fugue state. I like how she refers to it with "I got a place here", rather than "I live here". Because I don't get the impression she really does "live" there at all. She more just "is" there.

Posted by: Hugin Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:51 pm

Here's a wank about not shooting Apollo: The Cylon may well know how much armor it has and what kind of weapons the Colonials have. If the thing is reasonably certain that nothing Apollo is carrying can take it out, why not conserve what must be limited internal ammo? Save ammo for more critical situations.

Posted by: WildeChild Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:52 pm

Frost and EllieJ, really interesting points about the crew/fleet loyalty. I've often wondered what the crew really thinks of Lee. I've always found Lee's status, or at least how the rank and file regard him, a little more ambigous than the other characters.

If Tigh remains in charge for very long I can see him having trouble maintaining loyalty throughout the fleet. IMHO, he has the chops for military leadership but he doesn't have the presence, the political savy, or the temperment to hold a group of civlillians together. I think this will be the real weak point created by Adama's injuries rather than any diminished military leadership.

Posted by: LaraAriadne Jul 23, 2005 @ 1:57 pm

A couple more thoughts:

I was thinking to myself last night, "If and when Starbuck gets back to the Galactica, she's going to be in a heap of trouble." And then I realized, no, she won't. Because the fleet is so undermanned that they need everybody they can get, witness Apollo being let out of the brig the moment there's any trouble. Heck, Starbuck could rob a liquor store (are there liquor stores in the fleet?) and she'd be piloting her viper the next day.

The ep's title, "Valley of Darkness", has biblical connotations, but I also wonder if it might be an allusion to Kobol and the bones that were found in the woods.

Posted by: MrBananaGrabber Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:03 pm

That was a really effecting episode, but yikes the Baltar stuff was uneven. It may have been intentional, but have Baltar wake up from a dream, to find Six and skulls just made me question the whole sequence. Plus it felt really out of place in the episode.

I was peeved at the humvee but I've gotten over it. Sure they could have put some cardboard on it, but then I'd just be all "stup Humvee with cardboard, what is this the Old Galactica?"

RIP Socinus. Was worried that Billy or Dualla were toast too, don't you love a shoiw that doesn't pull punches?

Posted by: ImperiousLeader Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:06 pm

A few comments after reading through all this goodness; trying not to repeat anything....

Though we can assume the cylons have a heck of a lot of military resources (presumably at least one basestar for each of the 12 colonies, the better to wipe humankind out, mydear), I have to assume that most of those resources are now involved in the chase for the last remants of humanity (Galactica and any escapees that aren't part of the ragtag fugitive fleet.)



This would shock me -- for Dirk Benedict, I think the original series was just another role (not that he did much outside of The A-Team), while DickHatch seems to have dedicated his career (outside of Survivor) to Galatica (he wrote several novels that continued the adventure, for instance). But it would be a larf.



Except for the massive size difference, I suppose. (I'd love to see the Radar character in M*A*S*H Goes to Iraq mail a humvee home piece by piece.) As for any distractions, didn't we see hummers on an airbase during a Zak-era flashback last season, where Starbuck meets Adama the Senior?

And regarding who else in critical roles on Galactica might be a humlon — can there really be anymore of them on-board? I suspect that Boomer was their last best hope at sabatoge (after they fragged that ship in 33, and then had the suicide bomber and his other copy who got airlocked in Flesh & Bone), and with that resource pretty much "burned," the cylons are leaning toward more traditional tactics.

I lurve this show!

Posted by: excantabrigian Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:12 pm

Re. the Humvee/ramen/current-day-prop controversy - can someone help me out here? Do we actually know this is supposed to happening in the future? I mean, like our future? I can't remember if the time frame was ever spelled out in the mini or last season, and I accidentally let some of the early eps get erased off the Tivo (curses!)

Cos maybe I'm being really dense, but I think of it a la Brazil (the movie, not the country), as some interdeterminate time, not necessarily in the future, not necessarily in the past, and it makes sense to me that what we see everywhere - on Galactica, on Kobol, on Caprica - would be some amalgam of the familar and the new. To me, part of what makes the BSG experience cool is that amalgam.

Also, Gonigal, I'm not really clear on why a Humvee is bad because it's apropos to armyStarbuck but a VW would be better (albeit only slightly) because it goes with artistStarbuck. There's only one Starbuck: excellent, conflicted armyartistStarbuck, bless her heart.

eta: well, unless she's a Cylon, of course, in which case there could even be a Malibu Starbuck for all we know. But I'm very much hoping she's a good ole human.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 2:31 pm

-As soon as Dream Adama first mentioned the baby, I also immediately flashbacked to the miniseries and assumed he would snap it's neck just like Six did. But when he started heading towards the water with it I got the whole "Moses" vibe and thought he would let the kid float downstream and Baltar would just watch helplessly as it floated away (because as has been mentioned, in dreams you most often *can't* move or react in those situations), and Baltar would interpret this as a "prophesy" of some kind that his kid is lost "out there" somewhere and he must go find him, which would eventually lead to him somehow finding PregoBoomer. (Hey, at the rate Adama was walking, I had plenty of time to overthink things). When Adama finally just drowned the kid I found it nicely chilling, but not quite as chilling as just snapping it's neck would have been. On the other hand, bonus points for the twisted Biblical imagery.

-Boy, Crashdown really became total prick awfully quickly. In KLG II, he came off as kind of a sympathetic character; he was a totally incompetent leader, but he was thrown into a situation he was completely unprepared for, seemed to realize it, and on at least some level seemed to recognize & appreciate the value of having Tyrol there to "advise" him. But in the past two weeks he's just came off as an unlikable douchebag looking to cover his own ass by foisting the really tough decisions off on Tyrol while using his own undeserved authority to bully the Vice President. At this point, I think I'm going to be disappointed if Crashdown makes it off Kobol alive.

Last season they sort of almost accidently on a whim fell into having a whole season long Carpricia B story, and for the most part it worked out pretty well, but I definitely do *not* want them spending another whole season there. Starbuck especially needs to get back into the main action relatively soon.

As for Kobol, while I wouldn't particularly mind if Baltar & company were all rescued next week, regardless of whether or not people are stranded there Kobol is clearly going to be a major part of the story for the rest of the season at least; the place just has too many secrets to give up. (In fact, I hope Moore at some point bites the bullet, gives the classic War movie scene retreads a rest and lets someone besides the possibly hallucinating Baltar make some discoveries that lead to some concrete answers. After a whole season of having characters do little more than stare at a closed hatch on Lost, my patience for needlessly dragging out the mystery has worn kinda thin).

Posted by: Skip Intro Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:11 pm

Specifically, two First Lady’s first names (Roslin as a soundalike of Rosalynn).

I’ve been wondering about that myself. I thought I heard, way back during the lead-up to the miniseries, that this isn’t a parallel culture with shared roots (Kobol) but our far-flung descendants, far enough into the future that Earth has faded into myth. That actually makes the series work even better for me, not just to feel more connected to the characters—they’re not just like us, they are (or were) us—but it also makes it easier to accept why they drive humvees, wear neckties, write in English, and have names like Bill and Saul. However, I can’t find anything to support that anymore so now I’m wondering if it’s just my wishful imagination.

Posted by: Gella Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:30 pm

I tend to think of it as some sort of a parallel universe. If they were out descendants, why would they retain Greco-Roman theological systems for instance?
Also, on the second viewing I think the skulls were real. There are ruins on Kobol, who knows why people left it in the first place, there were mystery shooters, who didn't act like cylons -- there might be more to Kobol than the proverbial paradise. I'm just saying that Six does have a point about human nature.

Posted by: kathrynt Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:33 pm

For whatever reason, the whole past / present / future tech thing doesn't bother me at ALL. Their microphones look like BBC mikes circa 1942? Great. Starbuck has a humvee? Bitchin. They have drugs to reduce a pneumothorax, rather than having to put in a chest tube? Brilliant. While I hate drastically incorrect or inconsistent science, I'm glad that the show has chosen to focus on the "fiction" part of "science fiction", and sink their money into good writers and actors rather than having a consistent future look.

Posted by: Wildog27 Jul 23, 2005 @ 3:46 pm

Frakkin' A.

Posted by: scratcheyes Jul 23, 2005 @ 4:06 pm

So, when Starbuck pulled out the keys, am I the only one who expected a motorcycle? I didn't mind the HumVee, although I would have expected something smaller (like a ratty jeep or something). I definitely do not see Starbuck as a VW type of girl.

As for her being a closet artist... I don't think that was the intended message at all. I think her painting was an expression/outlet of her emotions - a kind of self-psychotherapy. Just another way of showing she's got some issues that will need to be worked out.

Starbuck and Helo -- nah, they're just friends.

Tyrol and Cally -- big brother/little sister. And the motherfracking laugh -- sometimes you've got to laugh to keep from crying... just a stress outlet, and nicely done in my opinion.

Socinus -- I'll miss you. I was hoping he'd make it.

Jammer -- I also jumped to the 'he's a cylon' conclusion -- found alive in the arms locker (suspicious), combined with his turning his back on Cally and Socinus during the witch-hunt days.

Billy -- I really thought he was doomed there in the end - I'm glad he's OK.

Lots of other good stuff.

Re. original BSGers

ImperiousLeader forgive me, I can't tell if you're joking or not -- you know that the Richard Hatch from BSG-TOS is not the same guy that was on survivor, right?

On a related note, I was in love with TOS Captain Apollo, so it's a nice touch to see him here.

I'd also love to see Dirk Benedict make an appearance, and Daddy Starbuck would be a great role for him (maybe in a flashback or something... not a permanent fixture).

And for the love of the Gods... no Ann Lockhart! I hated Sheba -- she sucked the life right out of Apollo. Jane Seymoure (Serena) -- that would be OK.

Sorry for the rambling. As you were.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 4:27 pm

Hmm..., maybe someone should inform the Toaster Cylons of this little tip.

(Ohh... Toaster Centurions painted camouflage like a tank! That would just be too cool.)





I get all that, and I actually dig the retro touches (not to mention, this weeks episode has shown that sound powered phones will *always* be a good idea on a combat ship), and it wouldn't really bother me if Starbuck had driven off in some non-specific, generic, maybe vaguely futuristic vehicle that perhaps wouldn't really look out of place on the road today. It's when they make absolutely no attempt to even disguise the fact that they're using a specific, easy identifiable, commonly known make & model of vehicle that it just takes me right out of the show.



We don't know when this is happening relative to our present, this could all be part of our distant past, our distant future, or it might all be happening right now and these geniuses could be leading the Cylons right to us as we speak. The important thing is that any connection between the 12 Colonies / Kobol and our own Earth was severed thousands of years ago in the show's timeline and is shrouded in legend, so that any similarities between our current technology, designs,clothing styles, whatnot, and theirs would have to be the result of either an Original Series Star Trek style "Parallel Evolution" thing (what with the Gangster planet, the 20th Century Rome planet, ect.) or else part of that "Has happened before / Will happen again" prophesy.




I wasn't being completely serious there, just pointing out the incongruity between the Starbuck we've seen and the type of people I've known who've lived in that apartment (right down to what turns out to have been Phillip Glass music on the stereo). But in truth; Viper, Raptor, Cylon Raider, Humvee, Baltar, Starbuck has pretty much proven she can make anything her ride.



Heh, "Malibu Starbuck". I can see her carjacking Barbie's pink Corvette...

Posted by: ImperiousLeader Jul 23, 2005 @ 4:36 pm

Silence! None shall question the ImperiousLeader! Lucifer, unleash the hounds! ; )

Posted by: complex kid Jul 23, 2005 @ 4:40 pm

Has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps the exposition re: the bodies on Caprica and the skeletal remains on Kobol might be connected? (Providing, of course, that the Kobol skeletons are not just in Baltar's frakked up head...) It seems totally within the realm of possibilities to me that the cylons would gather up the bodies, burn the flesh from them and then take a few to Kobol just to aid in turning Baltar to their cause. Someone upthread mentioned that the bones didn't look old enough... Maybe they're not.

Also, the tone of Six's voice when she said "human sacrifice" struck me as absolutely untrue. She was lying. I'd bet money on it. And, she didn't tell Baltar outright that the scriptures were a lie; she allowed him to leap to that conclusion and then gave a slight nod. It seems a slight disconnect from her earlier quotations of scripture.

As to the presence of modern/familiar props - I've said before that the humvee didn't bother me, but it really goes deeper than that. I tend to view them as storytelling devices rather than name-brand/earth-centric objects.
humvee=military vehicle
ramen=crap food normally found in pantries of students and, well, starving artists or other people that don't like or want to cook
12 hour analog clock=timekeeping device
It doesn't bother me because I'd rather see something that I recognize and draw my own conclusions than hear some clunky dialogue like "Why, yes, Helo, this is indeed a decommissioned military vehicle. I purchased it at auction after they closed the Delphi airbase."

Aside from all that, I'm completely willing to suspend disbelief for a good story, and this is one of the best. :)

Posted by: Keely1116 Jul 23, 2005 @ 5:20 pm

I don't think Helo and Starbuck will end up Together, at least romantically. They seem to have known each other forever; it's my guess that they're the type of good friends who may have slept together a few times, but nothing ever came of it. I actually really enjoyed the two of them sitting around. I'm sure they're both brutally exhausted, and even in the midst of all that danger everyone must have a little downtime. Previous to now, everytime Helo fell asleep he had Boomer screaming "We goootta go, right now," in his ear.

I was a little surprised that they used Flash/Thunder as their call and answer. I would have expected something similar but different, like their mayday call of "crypter." I thought that Flash/Thunder was a way to out enemies that didn't use the "th" sound in their language, like Germans. I could have just completely made that up.

I loved the call back to "rolling a hard six" and the fact that no one really knows what it means. And also Apollo's tendency to ramble to himself when he's under pressure.

Also, when did Helo get so big? I don't remember him towering over Boomer the way he does Starbuck. She looked so tiny compared to him in the far-off shot of them arguing about Helo being stupid.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 23, 2005 @ 5:21 pm

Ah...my first post...

Good stuff being discussed right now. Mainly, I'd like to share my thoughts on the issue of realistic props. I can see that some people don't like the use of all this Earth stuff, but I find the usage of familiar things neccesary and a good break from what we have on most sci-fi shows on the air right now. I believe that it's one of the steps that RDM took to break the cliche of props on a sci-fi show, and I really do think it's working. Some ideas are just conveyed better when you're not alienating the new-to-sci-fi viewers out there and also when someone has to explain what something is and it turns out to be something boring, it's not that interesting to watch.

To Kobol! I also agree that the bones look new and I question why they haven't been covered and under the earth after 2000 years of the land being untouched by humans. Maybe there are still people on Kobol? Thinking about it, were there enough ships to evacuate all humans from Kobol in the exodus of humankind?

Overall, a great episode with some very intruiguing new material. It's just episode two, but I already want the soundtrack too...

Just one thing bugs me...how many explosive rounds does Helo have now? I'm sure he knows that normal rounds don't work as well(remember how he just wasted a whole magazine on that one Centurion in 33?).

Posted by: Limber Jul 23, 2005 @ 5:30 pm

I know he got a look that could certainly have hinted at "bedroom eyes", but I agree that there won't be a Helo/Starbuck pairing. The way he was looking at her seemed a combination of amused, touched and accomodating. I think he knew that Kara lets few people see this side of her life, so he's going to just shut up and go along with it and consider it a compliment that she let him in in the first place. Like not knowing that your football-playing seventeen year old cousin does tai chi in the morning, and isn't embarrassed or defensive when you unexpectedly discover him doing it.

Posted by: Irish Wolf Jul 23, 2005 @ 5:31 pm

Personally, I thought the ramen was a nice touch. With one prop, they told us things about Starbuck and her life before everything got fracked up that would have taken pages of expository dialog.

Posted by: Kev Jul 23, 2005 @ 5:57 pm

I loved the little touch of, when Starbuck was sitting down and stretching her legs, she winced and grabbed her knee. That's some very subtle and nice continuity.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:12 pm

That is a nice little detail. Helo also had to help his left thigh up a bit as well. I like how they don't ever set the rest button for every episode. Their characters have to always go through with what they do.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:12 pm

The problem with that is that there's no reason for the Cylons to go through all the trouble of doing that when it's almost certain that Six *could* just make Baltar see skulls and thereby achieve the same effect. (On the other hand, if next week someone besides Baltar sees the skulls...)

But in a more general sense, I think there might be a deeper connection between what's happening on Carprica and what happened on Kobol, tied up in that whole "All this has happened before" prophecy. Something happened on Kobol to end their civilization, Six insists it was the humans' own fault, but I trust her about as much as you do. Carpricia has just been destroyed by the Cylons. If Six is being less than truthful about what happened on Kobol, might it really have been something that closely parallels what just happened to the 12 Colonies? Might the Kobolians (?) have created something that then turned against them & destroyed them, and the Cylons see themselves as the spiritual heir or decedents of whatever wiped out Kobol? If Six is trying to turn Baltar Cylon I can see why she might want to mislead him on this point.

So I think the talk on Carprica about where all the bodies are is significant, and might in some more indirect way be connected to Kobol's Killing Fields, in that I wouldn't be a bit surprised if in future weeks we have a scene of Starbuck & Helo coming upon the Cylons digging & filling a mass grave, juxtaposed with a scene of Tyrol or someone else stumbling upon Baltar's bone yard.

Posted by: tygerboy01 Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:15 pm

I was totally wishing that the keys Starbuck got would belong to some super-secret "I cobbled it together from spare parts, but she's a ship!" spaceship.

Yeah...I know. Never mind me.

Or at least a fighter! I had this whole "now...lets go get my raider back!" thing playing out in my head.

I just realized... of the three deckhands (not Tyrol...he's chief) we got to "know" from the miniseries... we only have Cally left. The one bought it in the mini, and now Socinus is permanently listening to the birds... Jammer's a poor replacement. At this point Cally NEEDS to survive.

I feel bad for Crashdown. Even more so after hearing the podcast and all that. He's not intentionally being an idiot, he's just so completely out of his depth he doesn't even know how wrong some of his decisions might be.

Also interesting from the podcast regarding Starbucks apartment... they had Katee and Tamoh just go in there with paints and do all that stuff...! THAT must've been a fun time and it probably helped the actors both bond a bit more.

As far as the Centurions are concerned... I've been under the impression that, while they all have the hand-slasher mode they do also have different fold-out guns... it would make sense that they ALL have the manipulator fingers/talons while some might have specialized gun stuff. ...I'm going to be a little scared if we see a Centurion that turns its arm into a rocket-launcher or something though.

Posted by: queengeek Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:42 pm

I was thinking the exact same thing :)

For me, the best scene was where Adama grabbed the baby from Baltar...the sis and I were cheering him on, it was a beautiful moment. I thought the acting in the whole episode was fantastic in that regard - it could have been mawkish, but it was fab - it could have been overplayed, but they pulled off it really well. Dreamy, nightmarey, good "possible futures" vibe.

And any episode where Adama drowns Baltar's imaginary baby earns an A.

Posted by: caripower Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:55 pm

I've been an Apollo chick from the start, and that's not likely to change. So, of course, I was loving his moments in this episode. What I find interesting is that he doesn't seem to think he was cut out for military, just like Zak, but for different reasons. His play on the reluctant hero is perfect. I have a feeling that he pretty much has to will his mind into a military state pretty much everyday he's on duty, so his muttering is perfect. But do we agree with him ? Is he cut out ? I think if we look at every military character in the show, we'll find that every character has a weakness that impairs them in their job, wheter they give the orders or take them.

Posted by: Number6 Jul 23, 2005 @ 6:56 pm

YeNguyen

Yeah but we can be fairly certain all that was arranged at the request of CylonBoomer. They wanted to "arrange" the both of them together so they put some roadblocks in his way.

If you prefer a different explanation, one that might be more fanwanky, perhaps the Cylon boarding party was more heavily armored than the typical units.

Posted by: Chascarrillo Jul 23, 2005 @ 7:05 pm

I was fine with the "He's your man, Chief" (well, except for Crashdown spitting the words out - but then, that's in character, so...). Socinus was Tyrol's man, so it's his call on how to proceed. Crashdown would have been overstepping his bounds otherwise. But then, maybe that would have been in character as well.

Were the skulls real? I'm sure there's an interesting discussion about whether bones would survive in a humid forest environment for however long Kobol's been deserted (which is a good question in and of itself - I'd randomly guess a few thousand years). However, I think it may miss the point. There's too much that we know about human nature to believe that this didn't happen. You only need to look at Cambodia, Rwanda, and the Balkans... and that's just the past thirty years of human history. Even if the evidence was a figment of Baltar's imagination, I'd strongly doubt that there wasn't truth there.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 23, 2005 @ 7:13 pm

Yes. He is. Far more than most of the people we've seen, and I'm including Starbuck and Tigh in that, he has a grasp on the main goal of a military man -- keeping himself and those around him alive. He does the dirty jobs himself, but he's not afraid to give an unpopular order. And, this is the biggie, Apollo has a conscience and is willing to disobey a direct order he believes to be morally wrong. That is the hallmark of an extraordinary officer.

Posted by: Kalbear Jul 23, 2005 @ 7:49 pm

My impression of the Centurions was that they were a lot better armed and armored than normal troops. Which would make sense; you don't send run of the mill guys to board a ship, you send the equivalent of marines. These were shinier (IMO, of course) and everyone expected their weapons to work - and found out that they didn't. It was a surprise.

My gut feeling is that this was not something they were used to, and was either a new thing or a rare thing. Then again, it may have been that most of the time they don't arm their weapons with explosive rounds inside a ship. I doubt it though.

I do have to say - I really like the idea of the plan for this one. The cylons weren't just going to cause damage; they were going to attempt to kill everyone on the ship but leave the ship intact. Pretty neat thinking.

Posted by: Polter-Cow Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:19 pm

I totally agree, Kalbear. I also like the idea that they would be using the fact that they're robots that don't need to--hold on a sec, they do need to breathe, don't they. How did they intend to survive all the humans being vented out into space (along with, I presumed, all the breathable air)?

Posted by: Limber Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:25 pm

If they can carry around a seemingly inexhaustible supply of ammo, I'm willing to go with the flow and either assume that they have cans of air tucked under their plating, or they can depressurise everywhere but the fore and aft chambers while venting the puny humans out into space.

I also find it funny that both Helo and Starbuck are limping at this point. Heh. No wonder they were excited about the car.

Posted by: Strega Jul 23, 2005 @ 8:40 pm

I don't think they need oxygen. Remember, they arrived on board via the big hole in the hull. The organic tech we saw in Starbuck's Raider was a new (to the humans) development; I've been assuming that the Centurions are upgraded versions of the older models, and are free of wetware.

Posted by: Tenebrae Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:06 pm

I'd been assuming that the all-metal Cylons didn't need air also. Why would they? The semi-organic models do, but I don't think that includes the Centurions.

I was thinking about the "he's your man thing" with poor Socinus. (By the way, the Sci-Fi website has the cut scene where Tyrol releases him from the brig, in case anyone is interested. It should be http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/, at the bottom of the page, second of the deleted scenes.) While I do think it was Tyrol's place to make the decision (someone upthread described Socinus as lucid, but I didn't really get that impression), because Tyrol was Socinus' chief, and because Tyrol very obviously feels responsible to and for all of his people, I didn't get the feeling that that was the reason Crashdown said it. It seemed to me like Crashdown just didn't want to be the one to make the call. Perhaps he was too busy looking for someone else's hair to set on fire, since he has so little of his own.

By the way, do they still have any knuckledraggers besides Jammer left on the ship?

excantabrigian, I imagined a Malibu Starbuck, and my mind broke a little. I think Lisa Simpson would probably like her, though.

Oh, and I realized part of why I miss the blipverts at the beginning so much. Whenever I go to the movies, and I sit there and watch all the trailers, I end up forgeting about whatever I came to see. I always want them to put in a trailer for the movie I'm about to watch, so I can get psyched up about it again. The blipverts were kind of like that. Anyway.

edited to add the link

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:30 pm

I was a little jarred by Apollo's speech about not being fit to wear the uniform, never being fit for it. I could understand if he was saying that he didn't feel fit to wear it now, after everything that had happened including his part in the coup, but I'm not sure what made him say he never was. Have I missed something in his back story?

Posted by: Frost Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:32 pm

I don't think the Centurians need air, but if they open a hatch to depressurize the ship they better be holding on to something very very tightly or they'll be sucked out into the vacuum. I wonder how long a Centurian would survive just floating in space?

Tenebrae - Could you edit your post and put in a link? I went to the site and couldn't find any deleted scenes.

Posted by: regency Jul 23, 2005 @ 9:43 pm

Was it just me or did the Pres. save Billy's life?

Gods, I love the Prez. even though I'm not completely convinced noone's screwing with her on the visions thing.

Anyway, I thought it was good and didn't want it to end. I really don't care for Col. Tigh --which I swear reads like Teeg-- or Apollo.

I got the same pseudo-shippy vibe from Helo/Starbuck. I was also kind of expecting a motorcycle, but I'm okay with Hummers.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:01 pm

Pretty much. I think the dialogue in one of the Kobol's Last Gleaming's gives a time frame of about 2000 years that the Kobol Capitol city has been abandoned.



If we were just talking about ordinary massacres, I'm sure that the history of the 12 Colonies is violent enough that there are some Rwanda style massacres and possibly even full blown Nazi style Holocausts in their past (I'm sure of this because of the way they act Just Like Us), but that still wouldn't make every accusation of genocide automatically true. In our own history, false claims of atrocities leveled against ones enemies are even more common than actual atrocities.

But in fact, when Baltar asks what happened here Six's response isn't just massacre or genocide but "Human Sacrifice", followed by "...not the fairy tales your scriptures would have you belive", basically accusing the Colonials' cherished religion & prophecies of being fundamentally evil in origin. But fanatical religious movements (like the Cylons' monotheism) almost always demonize & distort other religions. In particular, a certain monotheistic religion in our own past has a long history of accusing the followers of the polytheistic religions it supplemented of practicing "witchcraft" and "Devil worship".

Even so, could Six's charges still be true? FWIW, the Colonial religion seems to be closely associated with Greek Mythology and I don't remember ever hearing anything about the Greeks regularly making large scale human sacrifices to their Gods, not that that proves anything.

But one more thing about the skulls: We first see Baltar dreaming of Adama drowning the baby, he then "wakes up" in this area, suggesting that he had earlier deliberately walked into this area and lain (laid? whatever) down to get some sleep. He asks Six why Adama would do such a thing and even before she answers we can clearly see a skull or two in the background. She responds "The answer is all around you" and when Baltar looks around he sees huge piles of skulls in plain view everywhere he looks. Now if those skulls were really there, one would think he'd have noticed them when he first walked into this area before he decided it was a pleasant place for a nap.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:10 pm

True, Gonigal, but you have to remember that Six can have a very large influence on Baltar's body(none of that, now). We've seen before that some of Baltar's actions in his little Six daydreams sometimes translate over to the real world. Six might have guided Baltar to that area and then laid him down to rest. Then she probably caused the dream to occur and then woke him up.

Posted by: Kalbear Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:18 pm

The centurions (at least the ones boarding the ship) don't need air. Part of their plan was to depressurize parts of Galactica and walk through those parts where humans couldn't follow. And they started in the flight pod that was open to space.

Air? not so much.

Posted by: Avery Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:22 pm

You know, I've been thinking about Six's remark to Baltar, and it doesn't quite scan. She's contemptuous of the Colonies' holy book(s?), but is all glowy and rapturous about the prophecies she keeps spouting that will all happen again.

But those prophecies she's told Baltar were taken from Pythia -- which is one of the Colonies' holy books.

So which is it -- fairy tale nonsense, or inspired prophecy?

Posted by: Kalbear Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:28 pm

Can't it be both?

Posted by: firestarter Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:37 pm

I'm sure this isn't what he means, but I've been reminded of Aliens several times on this show, in that the soldiers act and talk tough and butch and invincible, but it becomes clear this is just a desperate armor against their utter vulnerability. The marine guarding the jailed president falls apart at the first sign of real danger, and the unarmed, skirt-wearing president is the one who saves Billy.

They certainly looked green in that scene, and during the 'we all agree Helo is an idiot' scene, but that could have been the Capri-matography.

I don't know anything about the military (outside of movies), but he sure seems to be. He's disciplined (other than that momentary mutinous lapse), sharp, talented. He walks the balance between being buddy-buddy with his crew and then getting back into the leadership role when it's needed. He was great with everyone they encountered in this episode--he assessed very quickly what to do, who to send where, etc. He praised that guy who rigged up the phone to the CIC. He confessed his own fears, but only in such a way as to create a bond, not to undermine his command. He put aside his enmity towards Tigh and did what he was told. I dunno. Seems cut out to me. I don't know what he meant by that comment that he never was. Maybe he wants to go into politics now.

The Killing Fields wasn't a Vietnam War movie--my bad.

Posted by: Subjunctive Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:56 pm

I could be totally off on this, because while I like some Glass I get a lot of his work confused with a lot of his other work, but I think it’s one of his “Metamorphosis” pieces. I know bits of his work end up in soundtracks all the time. I hope I’m correct about this because the title has resonance for me with the series.

I know the Humvee discussion has already come and gone, but Starbuck’s dad being Phillip Glass jolted me out of the episode much more than any of the contemporary technology. I recognized it right away as a Glass piece and probably a Glass performance. As part of the soundtrack it would work, but as something that Starbuck is listening to that she claims is her dad’s, those implications bother me. I know that they have some of the same technology, but they also have the exact same art, preformed the exact same way? I’m probably thinking too much about this and maybe someone in production just likes the piece, but this all happened before and will happen again down to even solo piano work?

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 23, 2005 @ 10:56 pm

I've always thought that Apollo was pretty close to leaving the military before the attacks, but was forced to stay because of circumstances. I think he got into the military to ... impress isn't the right word, but I can't think of another one, but impress his father. He didn't want to be a person that would impress his father. That being said, I'm not sure if he would have ultimately been happier if he had left the military. I think that he's a good military officer in that he looks at both the immediate and long term consequences of his actions.

I also agree with the poster who said that Tigh doesn't have what it takes to keep the civilian population in line. If Adama doesn't get better soon, I'm afraid we'll end up with a military dicatorship on our hands. The civilians may complain, but Tigh controls the Galactica which is their main defense against the cylons.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

Subjunctive, I think you're just kind of overthinking the whole parallels thing. I think they just chose the piece because it's got that air to it(that sounded lame(my statement...not the music)). But I'm glad that they haven't picked out any music with lyrics for the series so far that could be easily recognizable. But yeah...I'm thinking that the Earth in the BSG universe is going to be very different from ours. You're going pretty far out onto a limb to assume that their Earth and ours is the same. I don't see the story happening like that. Hehe...though it would be interesting if Starbuck decides to have some flashbacks for nostalgia's sake with Mr. Glass as her father. Well, concerning the track itself, it's Metamorphosis 1.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:06 pm

I took it as a hint that Apollo is starting to realize where his true calling lies, and that it's most likely in the political realm. I kind of get the feeling they're setting Apollo up to take over Rosylin's position (and that Rosylin, rather than dying, might instead decide to be the next High Priestess of Vague Mysticism). It would certainly be cool to see a Presidential campaign pitting the old & new Apollos against each other, and once he wins the power struggle between the civilian government & the military will take on fun new family dimensions, but of course first he'll have to get that whole Treason/Mutiny thing straightened out.



I thought that tentacle mass/claw thing we saw looked sort of semi-organic (actually, it mostly just looked CGI), but then that seemed to be just some sort of optional attachment, not really part of the Cylon's main workings



From what I understand, the force of wind generated by the sudden depressurization of a room by opening it up to space has been greatly exaggerated in many movies (especially Alien Resurrection). With only one atmosphere of pressure pushing against it, something as big and massive as a Cylon Centurian should be in little danger of being blown (not sucked) into space.

Posted by: Curare Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:11 pm

I know ppl want to remain spoiler free and hence don't listen to Ron's podcast but seriously those things add to what is show. I'm not sure how to handle what he says about the religion but Gonigal's post is on to something about the scarifices. I'm going to play it safe and write about the religion in that thread.

I also have to add that I loved that the Cylons had blood on them when we saw them. Cool.

Posted by: Eirik Jul 23, 2005 @ 11:54 pm

A thought about the tech levels, I was under the impression from somewhere (perhaps a statement by Ron Moore) that the tech is so mixed up partly becuae of the pervious Cylon War. Much tech was demolished, so they are still rediscovering some of it, and perhaps are afraid of developing some, because of the danger that it was previously.

I'm another that didn't mind seeing the Humvee (though I noted that they made it a slightly less common looking pickup version). They've already shown them, and who knows what the real history is. We may find out that Kobol was actually Earth at some point, so they have plans for this kind of stuff laying around. Who knows?

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 24, 2005 @ 1:10 am

He/She quite possibly is, but consider this:

In the Podcast for KLG II, Ron Moore went into a long digression on various improbably goofy rejected ideas he supposedly had for the whole final Baltar Visonquest sequence (the one that wound up consisting of him entering the operahouse and finding the baby in the cradle onstage). I still don't know how much to believe Moore when he claims he seriously considered doing this stuff, but in one variation he described Baltar making his way through a dark tunnel and hearing strange music which Moore described as "an actual Jimi Hendrix recording". A voice in the darkness suddenly asks Baltar if he recognizes the music and Baltar replies that yes, he does.

This bizarre description of a rejected idea is what originally inspired me to write a post in the speculation thread months ago wondering if "This has all happened before / This will all happen again" might also refer to such minutiae as business suits, clunky 1940's style microphones and even popular music, and I specifically used the example of Jimi Hendrix in 1967 writing the exact same song that some Carprican Folk Singer on the other end of the Galaxy would write thousands of years later (or earlier).

It was just a nerdy little idea on my part inspired by an odd podcast digression by Moore (in which he might well have just been jerking our chain), but you gotta admit there's a certain similarity between Baltar claiming to recognize a Jimi Hendrix tune and Starbuck playing a recognizable (if somewhat more obscure than Hendrix) Philip Glass piece and claiming it's by her father, as if Moore eventually decided to pursue the idea after all but in a more subtle way.

And one more completely meaningless coincidence; in the Podcast Moore claims that the voice in the darkness that asks Baltar if he recognizes the Hendrix song would have eventually been revealed to be Dirk Benedict, who so many here have recently pegged as the perfect choice to do a cameo as Starbuck's father.

Posted by: ImperiousLeader Jul 24, 2005 @ 1:14 am

One random nitpick -- I'm assuming the Galactica still had a Raptor or two on board, right? So what prevented them from sending a few Marines in a Raptor to fly out to aft damage control, enter it from outside the ship, and then lie in wait to ambush the toasters?

Foolish humans and their drunken commander!

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 24, 2005 @ 1:35 am

Had Apollo known what was going to go down in the confrontation between Adama and Roslin? Because if he didn't, he was expressing a moral objection to an order, which is permitted under military law. Of course, holding a gun to a superior officer's head isn't.

Posted by: Tenebrae Jul 24, 2005 @ 1:57 am

Out of curiosity, did Starbuck say that her dad had written the piece, or just that it was a recording of him playing? In either case, I don't think that, within the context of the show, it was necessarily supposed to be the same Glass piece. In one of the episodes last season someone had a line that read to the audience as some kind of pop culture joke, but not to the other characters. (I wish I could remember the character, the line, or even the episode, but my brain is a little fried right now.) I felt like this was the same sort of thing.

Frost, I'll edit my previous post. Sorry, should have thought to link before.

Random favorite moment: Dualla suggesting to Billy that he should maybe put the safety on if he's going to store the gun in his trousers.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 24, 2005 @ 2:06 am

I can understand that. However, Socinus responded to Tyrol when Tyrol spoke to him directly. He also didn't seem to be in any pain yet. I'm not doubting the medic's diagnosis, but, if Socinus was able to respond to a direct question and ask one back, then he had the right to make the decision himself.

I think it's important to the Baltar evolution. As I said, Six has just been talking about human sacrifice. With Socinus not weighing in on his own death, Baltar could think that he's now witnessed one.

Posted by: firestarter Jul 24, 2005 @ 2:38 am

I rather hope not. It's too much like Stephen King's Dark Tower series, where bits of 'Hey Jude' bleed into an obviously foreign world and such. It was weird enough once.

Fabrisse, that could be. I usually have no problem with mercy killings, but it didn't seem to me that Socinus was in much pain, and maybe they could have just given him enough morphine to kill the pain and let him die more naturally. However, I'm not sure Baltar would see a connection between the mercy killing and human sacrifice--he is a scientist still, even though Six's machinations are wearing that steadily down. I'm pretty sure the mercy killing was there for dramatic effect (they're in the war movie portion of the show after all), and not so much because they're on Kobol, place of possible human sacrifice.

On second viewing:
I dislike Tigh, but was glad for the neat bit where he knew what the Cylons plan was, because he's one of the only soldiers left who fought in the first war. Useful.

When Baltar first saw Adama in the dream, did he say 'How in gods' name did you find us?' or 'How in God's name did you find us?' Also, I really love how Baltar--nutty and monomaniacal though he is--is always so polite. And I loved the music in Baltar's dream. The music throughout is fantastic.

Starbuck's apartment was exactly like my first three apartments. Except without the painting.

Posted by: Irish Wolf Jul 24, 2005 @ 4:36 am

Chip!Six to Baltar: "Don't make me angry, Gaius. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

Posted by: Low Fang Jul 24, 2005 @ 4:53 am

Not so much impress, as prolly give in to the pressure he was constantly under to follow in his Da's footsteps. OK, he's proven he's as good a combat pilot as his Da prolly ever was, and now he's looking around and thinking, "maybe it's time I made my own life, instead of copying my father". Would go a long way in explaining the tension --- resentment, even --- between Apollo and Adama.

Would be a shame tho --- as somebody else already pointed out, Apollo has the makings of an excellent military officer.



That would be next weeks episode, I believe.

Posted by: Limber Jul 24, 2005 @ 6:00 am

Not just you -- she barrelled out from hiding and knocked him to the ground. Go Prez!

I also definitely enjoyed the look on her face when the guard started in on the "the gods are looking out for you" thing when he found the bullet holes. Kind of uneasy, and really not quite sure how to play that one. Heh.

Posted by: Hugin Jul 24, 2005 @ 6:55 am

I'm not sure if that saves them much time. They've got to round up a squad of marines, get them to the launch bay, find a pilot, get the Raptor prepped for launch (a process that would have to be impeded at least somewhat by the shipwide power outages and system crashes), launch it, fly to the aft of the ship, dock, start cutting or whatever to get inside, which given the nature of Galactica has got to take longer than cutting into Colonial 1, and then from there work their way down into Damage Control, because I doubt the actual compartment they need is near the outer hull anyway.

Given the timeframe of the events in the episode that feels like a stretch to me.

Posted by: mistri Jul 24, 2005 @ 7:08 am

Metamorphosis 1 by Philip Glass seems closer to the music in the episode than the track that was mentioned earlier. I found a download online claiming it was free (he does seem to put some tracks on the Net for free download), but I want to confirm that it is before giving a link.

Posted by: ostentatious Jul 24, 2005 @ 7:38 am

Delurking to mention my adoration for the idea of the http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=74 and http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=74&sid=9cd5408f35a2a9a593d73da1cd7e0167 http://www.dirkbenedictcentral.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=43&sid=9cd5408f35a2a9a593d73da1cd7e0167 as Pa Thrace. He does cons so it doesn't seem he's embarrassed about his dirty scifi legacy. And he's even an accomplished pianist, which makes me suspect that they've already got him lined up and wrote in the musician stuff so they could take advantage of his ability.

Posted by: firestarter Jul 24, 2005 @ 7:42 am

ost, and others, I'd like to answer your specs about Dirk Benedict in the Unidentified Bogies thread.

Posted by: Number6 Jul 24, 2005 @ 11:37 am

Ron Moore said this in one of his commentaries, I forget where. Apollo was about to resign, right after his Dad retired. But then the attack happened and so on.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 24, 2005 @ 12:12 pm

Hehe...I'm thinking of buying the Philip Glass CD with all the Metamorphosis tracks. I've got a new love for minimalist piano solos.

But back to the issue about parallels in everything. It's quite easy to overthink a lot of the stuff we see in the series. I think we should just accept that they've developed a lot of stuff like ours. I'm guessing that RDM just wants us to see that humans are humans and they will always create things where form follows function to the point where two objects that serve the same purpose, even on different worlds will still look the same. Well...at least they're not wearing capes, boots, and other crazy sci-fi stuff. Once again though, I'd just like to say that their Earth is probably not our Earth.

Oh yes, and in the podcast RDM says that Starbuck's dad is a musician, but no mention about whether or not he was a composer as well. He should really make more comments on the music.

EDIT: Oh yes, I forgot. This wasn't in this episode, but it also concerns parallels. Languages. We've got modern English, so that may mean we have modern German. That also means that they may have French(they have used the word "coup"), so that means Latin. I'll also stretch into their past and religion and say that they've got Greek. Thoughts?

Posted by: Codger Jul 24, 2005 @ 12:27 pm

I believe this is a very modern concept. Until the Nuremburg trials of 1945 no country had the concept that military personnel were allowed to disobey an order on moral grounds or because they thought it was illegal, not even the US. Unless the Colonials had gone through a similar event, it's doubtful they would've developed the concept.

However, military officers have pretty much always been allowed and expected to fight against officers committing treason or staging a coup, which is what Apollo did. Unfortunately the rebels won and Apollo, the loyalist, is now the beginning of what may become a purge. These are events that have played out in many countries, big and small, over the years. The founding fathers pf the USA knew well the risk of military coups and that's why they put so many controls over the military by civilian officials.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 24, 2005 @ 12:55 pm

If we're positing parallel development, then I hope the idea of rejecting an immoral or illegal order is part of their development, too. It adds layers and implications to Apollo's action.

Posted by: Khakiass Jul 24, 2005 @ 1:05 pm

It is.

Track 1, from Glass' Solo Piano album. You can listen to track samples http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000026Y4/102-9532645-5945731?v=glance



If you compare it to the work that Bear McCreary has done on the show (I'm flipping back and forth between the Glass track and his "The Shape of Things to Come" the similarities are striking. Both are minimalist, rhythmic composers...so, really, I you accept the "background" music of the show as Colonial, then the two fit together well. It's not alien art intruding into the show, it's another instance of their art in a mode we've heard before.

Posted by: Limber Jul 24, 2005 @ 2:06 pm

The link would be very much appreciated!

Posted by: Subjunctive Jul 24, 2005 @ 2:15 pm

Khakiass, have the characters in the show been listening to McCreary and have any of them commented on it? I might not have been so startled by Metamorphosis being played if I could tell definitively that it wasn’t Glass playing it. Therefore, when I read this:

and I think it’s Glass himself playing, I do begin to think it gets into Baltar recognizing Hendrix territory. But perhaps the implication gets doubled because Starbuck says this is her dad, therefore an off-screen, background character in the series.

I don’t necessarily dislike the idea, but I’m not sure it exactly fits exactly into cyclical time idea. I think of it more as the concept that certain concepts, ideas, inventions and art are out there floating in the ether waiting for someone to snatch them up, and once they’re plucked doesn’t mean they can’t be plucked again. Like if Shakespeare had been pursued and mauled by a bear on the way to the theater with his only copy of Hamlet, sooner or later in some form or another, the story would show up written by someone else. But I don’t know if that’s the same thing as the Cylon’s idea that they are all caught in a loop and the same acts happen again and again. I will admit I’m probably obsessing over this idea too much because the image of Glass being Starbuck’s father makes me giggle.

Posted by: Shanna Marie Jul 24, 2005 @ 2:46 pm

I'm enjoying how compressed time seems to be in the show lately. The last three or so episodes seem to have taken place in one day. It's possible that KLG 1 spanned a couple of days, but KLG 2, "Scattered" and this one all seem to be in one day, given that the group on Kobol doesn't seem to have seen a nightfall yet (though we don't know how long a Kobol "day" is or how it relates to the arbitrary days on board Galactica). The last couple of episodes seem to have covered maybe a couple of hours. And best of all, they seem to be well aware that these events are compressed, continuity-wise. I love how Kara is moving painfully, like someone who just had the crap beaten out of her maybe a couple of hours ago. She looks like every movement hurts. Lee still has his black eye from KLG 1. There are far too many shows where characters get bounced off walls, then in what should be only a few hours later, in show time, they're moving around as though nothing happened. She's actually acting like someone who was just in a really ugly fight.

One thing I haven't yet been able to figure out (I may have to watch it frame-by-frame): After that initial Cylon attack, before the Marines come to the rescue, both Lee and Kat look like they have bloody noses. I can't tell if that's just spatter from the guy the Cylon essentially cut in two right in front of them, or if they actually were injured somehow in such a way that their noses got bloodied. If they were injured, when did it happen? It's dark and it happens so fast that I'm not sure. If it's spatter, it's interesting that they have the same placement and pattern, in spite of being different heights.

Back to the timeline, I think many of us had assumed that KLG 1 started the morning or the night after "Colonial Day" because it looks like Kara grabs her blue party dress when she flees Baltar's place. But then at the beginning of this episode, Dee and Billy talk about how they haven't seen each other in person in a couple of weeks. Given that they danced together at the Colonial Day party, that would have to mean two weeks passed before KLG, since they've already established that so little time has passed since KLG. So I guess Kara was wrapping herself in something other than her party dress, and it means the Adamas didn't come home from the party and start a boxing match. That always struck me as kind of weird, though now Kara's motivation for sleeping with Baltar becomes foggier -- I had just chalked it up to getting drunk at the party, plus the confusion of Lee looking at her like he'd just realized she was a girl. I'm glad they did specify the two-week time frame for Dee's snippiness. She doesn't strike me as the kind of girl to go all "why haven't you called me?" in just a couple of days with so much else going on.

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 24, 2005 @ 2:51 pm

I can say they've got Greek. According to the BG universe, earth is a lost colony of that universe and that's where we got our Greek gods and godesses. But I don't think that should necessarily translate to other languages. The only reason we have english is because it's a television show that's produced in the U.S.. I would be very surprised if they started speaking other "earth" languages. This is always a problem with science-fiction. It's a toss up between inventing languages and having people read subtitles or just using the language of the country that's producing the show. It's just easier to use english. (Also coup maybe a French word, but the english language adopted it a while ago).

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 24, 2005 @ 3:16 pm

Hmm...maybe I am reading a bit too much into this now myself :P

Oh yes, and Shanna Marie? I think RDM has stated that the first few episodes of Season 2 are going to only take up a week of time or so. I think he either said it was the first 5 eps equating to one week or the first 7 equating to 5 days. But whatever. The short time spans make everything seem very tense. It's good because we get to see every crisis that is happening, not just a tidbit here or there. We get to see everything that these people are going through in such a short time and the effects is has on the characters. That they also take the time to make sure that long-term continuity keeps showing up is also a nice touch.

I really liked this episode a lot. I believe that if we get more episodes like this than I'm going to be a very happy viewer. Well, y'know, a little action here, some drama there, and just a smidgeon of sci-fi all around. Though...i think they should let up on the death for a while though. The amount of death used in Valley of Darkness was really effective. Violent death at the hands of the Centurions and also Socinus' euthanasia. But if they keep having so much I think it might lose its weight and significance.

Posted by: wastingtime09 Jul 24, 2005 @ 5:11 pm

Sorry I'm coming late to the party but reading through I noticed these things as I read through:

I think Billy and D are a great pairing and can't wait to see things advance so I was glad things moved along. But I don't think Billy is a virgin, he totally got some in college. I know if I saw him in one of my classes, his virginity wouldn't be a question much longer.


This actually is more relevant now that the timeline discussion has come up... How many people really know that Apollo was in the brig for mutiny? He was in for half of the season premiere before being sprung to help fight the Cylons then he came back to immediately face the threat of Centurions roaming the ship and a virus cutting the lights. I imagine in normal circumstances over a couple days the whole ship would be gossiping about it, as people who were in the CIC spread the information but I think that maybe there really hasn't been time to tell people that he's under arrest.


My favorite part of the Caprica scenes was how Helo hesitates to sink into a chair and put his feet up. Poor guy, he's been running for so long.

When Cmdr. Adama first showed up on Kobol I immediately thought "Holy crap, Adama's a cylon!" Since nobody on Kobol knows that Adama is recovering from the events of KLG 2, this would be the perfect time to introduce another Cylon Adama copy and the thought made my blood run cold. But then the imaginary baby showed up and everything was ok.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 24, 2005 @ 5:22 pm

But there's also a downside to that. With Adama in a coma and an undoubtedly long recovery period ahead of him, if the first seven episodes only span five days that means for the first two months of the season we're not going to be seeing the show's lead character at all except in a few wierd-ass flashbacks & dream sequences (not that I'm not looking forward to more Pornstache Adama. Maybe if we're lucky, we'll get to see him having to deal with a surly teenage Apollo. I'm honestly not sure if I'm being sarcastic here or not.) Unless EJO is off filming a movie or something, I'm not sure it's a good dramatic choice to sideline your show's main star like that.

Also, with all the plot points they have up in the air right now, if the next month or two of episodes is so eventful that everyone's facing an immediate crisis in near real time, then a lot of secondary storylines might wind up getting dropped for a long time. Like Boomer: she got one brief scene after she was dragged out of CIC in the premier and wasn't in last week's show at all. The situation with her is full of questions, deserves some serious, in depth treatment, but I get the impression all we're going to get for a long time is a quick little scene here & there when they can squeeze it in. Meanwhile, PregoBoomer & her little plot point are off God knows where (Quar-toh, perhaps?), almost certainly not to be seen again until sweeps or the season finale. (And to those of you who would snide that Grace Park could use the down time to brush up on her acting skills: point taken.)



With each week's opening credits now starting off with the Countdown To Extinction? I kinda doubt it.

(BTW, I'm pretty sure it hasn't yet been 9 months Galactica time since the beginning of the show, but at some point after that, like maybe about a year or such after the events in the miniseries, that number should start to go up dramatically as the fleet undergoes an intense, desperate, survival instinct-fueled baby boom.)

Posted by: scratcheyes Jul 24, 2005 @ 5:59 pm

IIRC, it's been right around 60 days -- based on the Helo Caprica timestamp.

Posted by: Uskglass Jul 24, 2005 @ 6:05 pm

GENIUS. I keep repeating that out loud, and it keeps making me laugh.

She gets cuter every episode. These past couple have turned me into a Cally groupie.

Agreed. I don't know anyone who couldn't laugh at that point.

Hahahahaha....this line and LaraAriadne's "Some of them are naked" line win the awards for funniest lines in thread.

Why do you think Helo was laughing so hard? I think Moore put it in there partly just to be ironic, shocking, and funny. I was laughing too.

I keep forgetting that Baltar is vice-president. I wouldn't be surprised if he keeps forgetting this himself.

Brilliant! I was wondering why they were just sitting there smiling at each other...

Yes he is. For me, his realization/our realization of that fact was the main point of the episode - a sharp contrast with the Crashdown scenes. I don't think the juxtaposition was a coincidence.

I was wondering the same thing. But by the way it looked when she was climbing into the Humvee, I got the impression that it was made of solid gold, or at least some sort of metal.

Very well said. I agree entirely. These retro props have, for me, a much cooler, stylized "future" look than an attempt at Star Trek-smoothness would.

Now enough with the quotes. My own random thoughts:

*I loved how Billy looked at the camera before he shut the curtain. After the explicit, voyeuristic Baltar/Six and Helo/Boomer scenes, it unexpected and cute.

*Did he say "Roll a hard six"? I heard "Pull a hard six," and I immediately thought: "Of course it's an allusion to the 'flippy-ship' Viper maneuver - how does Lee not get that?" Of course if it's "roll", then that explains it. Maybe a gambling reference, then?

*I'd never heard of Philip Glass before you guys mentioned him. The piece sounded so much like something Bear would do that I didn't notice it. Loved the scenes of them relaxing, by the way. They were so realistic. People aren't always talking, let alone being smart. Then when he sees the Humvee, he just laughs with surprise and joy. What other show would this happen on? On Stargate, he'd act unimpressed and make some witty comment about it. In real life, he'd laugh. I love this show.

*Also, Helo's face, jaw, and ears are so angular. I just can't get over how angular he is.

*By the way, the Moses allusion in Baltar's fantasy reminds me of the fact that the Adama from the original series is consistently referred to as a "Moses figure." This may mean nothing. Or maybe Moore was feeling mischievous.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 24, 2005 @ 6:59 pm

Haha...I seriously thought that Adama was gonna baptize the baby or something. Worst. Baptist. Ever. What struck me is that Baltar cares so much for his still non-existant child when just a few hours ago(I'm guessing), he was still fighting with the fact that he was going to be a father and even feigning interest to Six(poorly, as always). So, what happened? I'm guessing maybe that Baltar's had that dream before, or other dreams where his child is at risk.

About the Philip Glass piece. I had never heard of him before the episode either, and when I heard the piece, it definitely struck me as something Bear McCreary would do. Still, it's nice that they have more than just Bear's music to add atmosphere to the show.

On that note, who else had their heart beating a little faster every time you heard the drum hits in every Galactica scene? Brr...

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 24, 2005 @ 7:14 pm

The first thing I thought was, "Holy crap, Adama's dead!"

Posted by: excantabrigian Jul 24, 2005 @ 7:33 pm

Gonigal - In KLG II the Caprica Helo timestamp says 51 days; in VoD, he tells Starbuck he's been there for "months." Which to me sounds like longer than just under two mos, but at least we're in the ballpark here. Definitely too little time for the Caprica Goes Baby Boom to have happened yet. But you're right, it's a comin'!

Posted by: ClairdeLune Jul 24, 2005 @ 7:44 pm

I never thought it was an real "baby" but more like Gauis Baltar's Legacy. All that religious mombo-jumbo Six whispered in his ears had him convinced he was the Chosen Vessel, Progenitor of the Things to Come. Incidentally, I think it all started with that Christ-like pose at the end of 6 Degrees of Separation. Given his enormous ego, I can see him caring about his place in history (or Histories) far above an actual child.


Chiming in from shallow end of the pool, I think it'd be a crying shame for him to shed that fly suit, too -- he looks smashing in it.

(I'll be going back to my corner now ...)

Posted by: ciscokidinsf Jul 24, 2005 @ 8:24 pm

OK, episode after episode I get more paranoid and think that Gaeta keeps making decision after decision that makes me think he is a damn Cylon. I've rewatch the last 3 episodes, including this one, and I really, really think he is a Cylon. The whole decision of network the BSG and now the virus makes me think he is not really there to help. Plus he didn't look at all surprised when Adama was shot.

Am I just nuts? No one wants to join the 'Gaeta is a damn Cylon' club? OK.

As far as Baltar's Adama vision... Cylons probably want Baltar to kill Adama or somehow to join them. Which makes me think they will be rescued soon. Right now half the cast is not with the fleet... and the Caprica storyline is about to ran out of his welcome. Starbuck needs to come back to the ship now!

Posted by: hakirby Jul 24, 2005 @ 8:40 pm

Earth as Kobol, Kobol as Earth...I've been wondering that same thing since G-Boomer found it.

Posted by: Maxy Jul 24, 2005 @ 8:42 pm

It's totally a gambling reference. In craps, a hard six is rolling two threes - not a very common thing. I think when Adama says "sometimes you have to roll a hard six" he's saying that sometimes you have to do things a certain, more difficult way. A simpler substitute - the "soft six" just won't cut it.

It's amusing and true to life that, after hearing his dad say it for so long, Apollo would understand the larger context and purpose of the saying without getting it's actual meaning. That would also make Apollo the only fighter pilot I've known who doesn't play dice, but whatever.

Posted by: lowkey Jul 24, 2005 @ 9:40 pm

What I am finding interesting is Tigh's unreasoning hatred of anyone or anything opposing (or even disagreeing with) Adama.

His anger with Boomer ... totally understandable!

Then there's that clip they ALWAYS show in the previously's where Apollo pulls the gun and puts it to Tigh's head and he says, with utter disbelief, "This is mutiny!" Ummmm ... correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you there because you had been sent to arrest the duly appointed civilian leader of your own government, who's only "crime" was to disagree with the military leader? There's a word for that also.

Then there's Apollo's contributions in this last episode. Let's see, he shoots down a few cylon raiders, shoots up the boarding party ship, radio's in a damage report, puts together a scratch platoon to repel the boarding party, blows away the last cylon in the nick of time, agrees to all of the "parole" terms, sticks to his agreement ... yet he's not "fit to wear the uniform".

It will be interesting if/when Adama wakes up and starts to nit some of Tigh's decisions ... or if Tigh decides he likes his little taste of command.

Posted by: brownie Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:05 pm

That's _her_ story. I vote Cylon.

My only complaint about the Humvee is that I now demand a storyline about their looking for gas every 50 miles.

Posted by: entil2001 Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:09 pm

This week continues the slow but steady exploration of all the craziness from the first season finale, and I couldn’t be happier. There’s no shortage of body count or red-shirts, and the stakes continue to rise as none of the adversaries, human or otherwise, seem ready to let threats from the outside get in the way of a grudge.

It would have been so easy for Tigh and Lee to bury the hatchet and let the whole business over the president be bygones. At least, I would have expected that from some other series. The writers didn’t disappoint me, because instead of taking the easy way out, they were only civil to one another while their goals were temporarily aligned. They didn’t discuss it outright or go into detail about it after the fact. They worked together when convenient, and then naturally acted like it never happened.

Speaking of the boarding party, I’m glad that there wasn’t some major lag between the end of the previous episode and the continuation of hostilities. I’m also very happy that the Cylon virus didn’t simply disappear. Consequences are everything on this show, and everything that happens in this episode is a consequence of poor command decisions in the premiere. It’s hard to think about that as the stakes get higher with every passing moment; quite literally, they brought the siege upon themselves.

The real question is whether or not the virus is going to continue to be a problem in the future. Wouldn’t it be fun to see Adama asking Tigh, in that low but deadly voice, why there’s a Cylon virus running around a bunch of systems that were never supposed to be connected? Like the previous episode, this is an ongoing commentary into the weaknesses of Tigh, and it’s not pretty. The man may be holding a grudge in realistic fashion, but it still doesn’t make it a good choice!

Events on Kobol seem more and more like a way to put the screws to Baltar and whatever allegiance he may retain to humanity. Those visions once again seem metaphorical, though it’s hard to tell with this series. Specific or otherwise, Baltar doesn’t just believe that a hybrid is necessary, but that humanity (embodied by the most threatening of humans) is the enemy of that necessary future. Step by step, Baltar is being conditioned into the perfect weapon against humanity.

I have the sinking feeling that the writers are slowly but surely wiping out the survivors on Kobol so that at some point before the remaining few are rescued, one of the better known characters will die. They’re simply running out of red-shirts down there! Six’s warning is just vague enough to make it possible that everyone but Baltar will die, but then again, it’s impossible to know if she’s saying all of that as part of the conditioning.

One thing that I didn’t quite get, from a story perspective, were the scenes on Caprica. They seemed out of place, though it was probably necessary to explain how Starbuck and Helo manage to get around in the following episodes. Was there a point to those scenes, though, beyond that plot element? It was some minor insight into Starbuck’s character, but at the moment, it doesn’t seem all that important in relation to the rest of the episode.

On the other hand, though, those scenes did give me a chance to breathe between the scenes on Galactica and Kobol, so I suppose they served that purpose. Overall, this was another fine installment. I really love how all these plot threads continue to move forward, bit by bit, and the writers don’t feel the need to bash the audience over the head with explicit meaning. The story is what it is, and the audience is invited along for the ride.

Posted by: Boadiccea Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:14 pm

"Who could kill a baby?" (or words to that effect). Gee, Gaius, I don't know. Maybe you could ask your new Cylon friends, since there was probably a baby or two among the entire populations they just blew away?

This bothers him, but he seems to have recovered nicely from any minimal feelings of guilt he might have had at being responsible for the destruction of the human race because he couldn't keep his pants zipped.

And since the Cylons have shown a talent for duplicity, I wouldn't buy everything that Six tells him. It may even be that she believes it: humlons may have developed human talent for self-deception and excuses. Or, as another poster pointed out, it may be religious in nature: the demonizing of the other faith, to justify wiping it out.


In the initial exchange between Billy and Dualla, I so wanted him to respond (when she talked about mutiny): "And you were sitting around here helping your CO commit treason."

Re Apollo: I agree that we are seeing that he had the makings of an excellent officer. I also like the "Me, either", the recognition that he's out of his area of expertise as he's a pilot and used to "aerial" warfare, while this engagement really calls for Marines/ground troops. I liked that they had him show a certain amount of fear ("Headshot. Reload. Headshot"). Courage is going forward--as he did--when you are afraid; it's not never being afraid (that falls more under the category of insane).

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:18 pm

I think the point of the Helo-Starbuck scenes is to show that everyone's perception of time is different. Thrace's sense of urgency has dissipated a little, partially because she has no way back to the fleet and partially because she's surrounded by comfortable things. Helo is beginning to lose his sense of urgency because he's not being chased by centurions. OK, only a few hours have actually passed, but when we look at how filled every minute of those hours is for the people on Kobol and Galactica, it seems like a huge contrast. I think the contrast is the point.

Posted by: roosterboy Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:24 pm

To be fair, Roslin also incited Starbuck to disobey orders, go AWOL and steal military equipment. She did more than just disagree with Adama.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:33 pm

Still I found the Caprica scenes from this episode to be an extremely welcome scene. When Starbuck said that she was going back to her place, I was really looking forward to it because not only is it something that I would have expected real people to do after not being home for a long time, but also because something like this would never happen in any other convention sci-fi show. A character just doesn't go home, even after the nuclear holocaust. They just move on and fight. I never found that believeable at all! But seeing Starbuck return to her home and reminisce about evrything that was wrong with her residence really intruigued me. I loved the Caprica scenes for this episode so much because of this. I don't think that it was just minor chracter insight either. There are so many things that you can infer about Starbuck through this scene.

Concerning Baltar's worrying, Boadiccea, I didn't really think about it. It seems to me that Baltar became completely ego-centric after the mini-series. He doesn't really care about the populace anymore, and I'm sure that he shed his guilt about causing the whole Cylon attack long ago. I think he's caring about this imaginary baby because Six is twisting his mind and ideals through the dream and maybe other things.

Posted by: ersatzreality Jul 24, 2005 @ 10:55 pm

But that's part of the futuristic-ness...maybe the Humvee is nuclear powered, like the http://www.velocityjrnl.com/jrnl/1958/vmd1210ov.html.

Posted by: Doctor Funk Jul 24, 2005 @ 11:03 pm

Not to mention the one his girlfriend killed with a snap of its neck.



Gotta admit, having a Cylon in charge of communications would go a long way toward explaining how nobody has detected any outgoing Cylon messages.

Man, I miss Boomer. I hope she's back in all her multi-body naked glory next week.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 24, 2005 @ 11:55 pm

When you put it like that, it almost makes him sound like a really bad-ass Smithers.

Posted by: avdwolf Jul 25, 2005 @ 12:55 am

I love this show because it sets up choices and consequences. The problem is, having two groups marooned on Caprica and Kobol minimizes the effects of this. For example, chief deckhand guy doesn't know that Galactica's boomer is a Cylon, and we don't see him or anyone else really grappling with the reality that she's been there in their midst(and making him a bigger fool than Helo, in my opinion) for all this time.

On another front, they set up Starbuck to have a confrontation with Adama and go against him. If she knew he was on the brink of death, she would have truckloads of guilt about what she did - but she doesn't know his condition. And for all we know he may be recovered by the time she get's back. This is what irritated me about Babylon 5 towards the end - they stopped paying off the situations that they set up. I'm ready for them to wrap up the Kobol and/or the Caprica landing party threads.

Posted by: Low Fang Jul 25, 2005 @ 3:01 am

I look on that as a mercy killing. Six (Mark A) knew the planet was about to be nuked, and showed a rare moment of compassion for the helpless, drooling, little naked ape. Sweet really.




The whole Six/Balthar dynamic is straight from the espionage textbook, Chapter 1: How to Turn An Informant.

Step One: Get them to betray a trust (sex is always very helpful in this regard), either wittingly or unwittingly. Then tell them the local authorities would be very, very, upset if they somehow found out about it. Paranoia sets in.

Step Two: Convince your new best friend that their world view is at fault, and that the ideology is always greener on the other side of the hill. A few choice reminders about Step One will help: Knowing there's no going back will make them more likely to come over to Your Side.

Step Three: Convince them that they are an important and integral part of Your Sides plan to take down Their Side. Soon your mark will come to believe that being a big fish for Your Side beats being a dead fish for Their Side.

Step Four: Stand back and watch the fireworks.

Posted by: terebi Jul 25, 2005 @ 3:11 am

My vote: wrap up Caprica and get our folks outta there. I want to see more about Kobol, and find out some of the mysteries - because they're deep and heavy ones and I am utterly confused and don't know what to believe. (That's the way I like it.)

I'm just blown away by characters who I saw plenty of last season suddenly becoming incredibly hot. Last week was Gaeta; this week it's Billy. When did Billy get to be such a smokin' hot tamale? Maybe it's because he's loosening up with the help of a good woman (though Dualla's still kind of a cipher to me - here's hoping she gets more to do in later episodes, and I don't just mean Billy).

Everything else, y'all have already said. I know many women who act and live just like Starbuck must have in her crappy li'l apartment, but none of them are straight. The only thing missing is a big slobbery dog.The fantasy is maintained - and straight chicks are starting to go "Hmmm, I'm straight, but that Starbuck is some kinda hottie!" Thank you, Ron Moore, for we have not had a good TV lesbian icon since Xena went off the air.

Posted by: ostentatious Jul 25, 2005 @ 6:01 am

Dualla's a cipher to me too, but her eyes make up for it. Which, come to think of it, probably sums up Billy's feelings. =)

I'm straight, but I did live like that briefly in my early 20s. Well, for a few years. Broke, artistic, you know. I had a cat, though. I do think Starbuck is a dog person. I wonder where everybody's pets are? Gone wild?

Posted by: ersatzreality Jul 25, 2005 @ 6:42 am

I believe it fair to assume that whatever killed the humans killed most other living things. Clearly the explosions did a lot of damage. And the parts of Caprica that appear to just be deserted - if neutron-ish weapons were used, the dogs/cats/ferrets died as well.

Then again, we're assuming that the Colonials kept pets the way it is done in the West.

Posted by: BroodyAnn Jul 25, 2005 @ 8:03 am

I vote to wrap up the Caprica story as well. It's the weakest link, dramatically speaking. I'm not opposed to character exposition scenes. Caprica was a bit of a relief from the intensity of Galactica, and the futility of Kobol, but it did feel out of place. Nothing happened. And nothing of any real consequence can happen until Starbuck, Helo and Cap!Boomer rejoin the fleet. That's when the ish hits the fan for all three. Right now, the Caprica story is threading water.

I confess I'm a little confused by Apollo's line about not being fit for the military. He just spent the entire episode proving what a good officer he is. Maybe he did join the Colonial Fleet because of his father, and it may not have been the career he would have chosen for himself, but that doesn't change the fact he does the job well. I guess I'm wondering if the audience is supposed to agree with him and Tigh that oppose Adama = bad officer.

Posted by: Hugin Jul 25, 2005 @ 8:23 am

I'm torn. I do want Starbuck and Helo to get back to the other characters. But I also like the Caprica stuff. It really opens up the show visually and emotionally. I definitely loved the quiet interlude. And clearly the Cylons are doing something there, I can't imagine Helo was the only one being manipulated. I'm willing to let things play out a few more weeks.

Posted by: Limber Jul 25, 2005 @ 10:11 am

I'm enjoying the Caprica stuff, too. Helo's been there for months, and it doesn't seem like he's gotten any sort of payoff for that yet -- and I do like the contrast to Galactica. I liked the quiet as well. And that Starbuck opened up a bit, and Helo is apparently smart enough to just stay quiet when that happens. I like their dynamic, and that I don't get a romantic vibe from them at all.

If anything, the Kobol stuff was what glazed over for me. I mean, come on. Baltar can lose his damn mind anywhere, can't he? And I already love Tyrol, so unless he goes totally nuts and euthanises Cally in her sleep, that's not going to change.

Posted by: Millie Jul 25, 2005 @ 10:59 am

I can not believe how much I am creeped out by the new and improved toasters. ITA that hearing them run and shoot crew members off screen was completely unnerving.

I am not sure if the skulls on Kobal were real or a figment of the Six. I guess there is enough evidence of ancient societies performing human sacrifices to the gods to warrant this type of storyline but Six has frakked with Baltar so much that she is even confusing me.

I think, for me, the most chilling part of the episode was Helo very calmy explaining the lack of bodies and Starbuck just accepting it. Chills! I am glad that this show is well written enough to know that we, the viewers don't need to be hit over the head with exposition.

Count me in, I immediately flashed to the old Fred Astaire episode.

Posted by: Tenebrae Jul 25, 2005 @ 11:55 am

Thank you. That was the character and line. It's amazing how much better my brain works when I've gotten some sleep.

While it's always been kind of creepy for Helo and Boomer to be wandering around in an empty city, I find it even creepier for Helo and Starbuck to be sitting around in her old apartment, when everyone else around there is dead. It was great, don't get me wrong, but disturbing.

I'm also in the torn camp, in that I want to see what will happen with the two of them on Caprica, and what's going to happen when Starbuck gets back to Galactica. Assuming that she does, of course, which I suppose is never a guaranteed thing.

Posted by: Kiarnit Jul 25, 2005 @ 12:16 pm

No, I think this was intended to be typical character development for Apollo. I don't think he's even necessarily putting himself down here, just recognizing that a tendency to ask questions and to see multiple sides of an issue makes it difficult to slot yourself comfortably into the military machine. In the past he's appeared to define himself as a pretty rule-bound person, and the discovery that he can't abide by all of the rules and the dictates of his own conscience at the same time probably makes him think that he was never a fit for the profession in the first place. As for Tigh, I think his character has been painted as having a sufficiently skewed vision of reality that the audience isn't intended to take his assessment of Apollo here on faith. Tigh is very loyal to Cmdr. Adama and is very good at some facets of being an XO, but he's plenty fallible.

BTW, I agree with the poster upthread (sorry, I don't have time to find that post right now) who said that Apollo's "mutiny" was in fact an act of attempting to stop treason, and therefore conduct becoming his post as an officer loyal to his head of state. However, it may be difficult for him to see it in that light, given his military indoctrination.

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 25, 2005 @ 12:17 pm

It's completely believable if they have no other choice, no home to go back to. What's completely unbelievable & bizarre (and a big part of why I liked the scene so much) is that Starbuck manages to fall ass backwards into a situation where she *can* actually go home and sack out on her old couch one last time. It's the impossible dream of all refugees, and it's not lost on Starbuck that the entire rest of humanity would give just about everything they had (if they had anything left to give) to be able to spend five minutes back in their old homes the way she is now.




She keeps certainly keeps insisting that, unlike the rest of humanity, she feels no sentimental attachment to all her old things she sees around her, feels no sense of loss for this dump she never quite called home. Methinks the Lady doth protest too much, but even if she really does feel that way now, I suspect she'll eventually come to look back on these few hours back in her old place as one of her all time fondest memories.

...And BTW, the very unlikelyhood that there is still a home for her to go back to, that her apartment, and the rest of the city, wasn't completely vaporized by the Cylons, is definitely something we're supposed to take note of and wonder about. In the podcast for KLG II, during the shot of Starbuck flying her raider over the still-relatively-intact city, Moore points out the standing buildings and makes clear that this is significant, that we should be wondering why the Cylons haven't completely leveled the planet. There's still a really big mystery about Caprica that we've only just barely glimpsed: Why are the Cylons "occupying" a completely empty planet? Why have they left at least some cities intact? Why are they bothering to clean up bodies from the streets? I have absolutely no idea, but we're definitely supposed to be wondering about these things.

Even so, I'll repeat what I & others have already said: Dramatically, the Caprica storyline is pretty much played out, and it's time for them to move on.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 25, 2005 @ 12:35 pm

Well, they're in Delphi, the biggest military hub on Caprica, so they say, and they have a car. They've got the arrow too. I'm supposing that if Boomer and Helo thought that they would have been able to infiltrate the base and get a ship out, then Starbuck and Helo no doubt can as well. Frankly, I don't really care if the CapBoomer is left behind. Could be part of their plans anyway. And if Boomer's still gonna be a big character, than I think they should cut down on her versions' screentime but at least give GalacticaBoomer a little bit more. Her existence will be the one that affects the characters that have to return home the most.

You know, the characters are still thinking that the Humano-Cylons are copies of humans that existed before. A strange little bit of messy logic. Could it not be the Caprica one is the original and the Galactica one is the Cylon? I think Starbuck's playing a game of "the first I see is not a Cylon." Right now I'm really wondering more and more of what this plan of the Cylons is. Seems to me that Caprica probably received enough brunt in the attack to kill off many of the living organisms on the planet, but it's not going into a nuclear winter. I'm just positive that there have to be more humans alive somewhere. It's just not human nature to stay cooped up in a bunker for two months anyways.

Posted by: Unusual Suspect Jul 25, 2005 @ 12:53 pm

Only if Lee had been successful and the President was still Head of State. It's the problem of doing the right thing for the losing side.



Yeah, I find that odd. I assume it's that Starbuck and Helo are consciously avoiding the idea that Sharon has always been a Cylon because Helo didn't just fall in love with Caprica!Boomer, he's been pining for Galactica!Boomer who was shacking up with the Chief, and Starbuck has apparently been comrades with a Cylon for awhile.

Posted by: Trademark Jul 25, 2005 @ 1:09 pm

I loved this episode. It had excellent rhythm, using all 3 story lines really well. The intensity on Galactica was punctuated with the desperation on Kobol, and the quiet reflection on Caprica.

I liked the return of Rosyln as an effective leader rather than a mystic one. She was the one who knew that using Dee's rank would snap her out of her trance. Her intelligence in tough situations is one of her best qualities.

I'm all for seeing Dirk Benedict as Starbuck's dad. Even though I half-expected her to be an orphan, like the original.

Is anyone but me sick of not "seeing" the Cylon/Human hybrid baby? Eventually, I will lose interest in the baby of the future if all I'm going to see are chubby hands, reaction shots, and a prop in a baby blanket. If Baltar & Adama can handle seeing it so can I.

Posted by: Hokers Jul 25, 2005 @ 2:49 pm

When they were getting the Pres out of the Brig, I had the feeling that she may be rethinking the "Arrow of Apollo" being the museum item and not the person.

If so, Starbuck gunna be mad about her trip to get the wrong thing.

Posted by: Limber Jul 25, 2005 @ 3:03 pm

And yet, the thought of Starbuck then having to go to Lee and try to get at his Arrow... Well, thar be porn. And possibly a fanfic.

Posted by: Raina SaDiablo Jul 25, 2005 @ 3:19 pm

Especially his own blood...


It's actually the music that was played in the 'Act of Contrition' funeral scenes, and is a slightly different song than the S1 US opening theme. It was also played as the opening theme for 'Hand of God' ONLY, and I think it's my favourite out of the 3 opening themes. Which is a shame because it was only used as the theme for one episode.


I like that attention to detail, because being filmed in British Columbia, I was half expecting to see a BC license plate (like you do on many filmed in BC shows that don't actually take place there). But they actually bothered to make a Caprica plate. Well at least it didn't look like any Canadian plates I've seen.


I always figured that he was an ECO before the attacks, and that's why he has no command experience. As far as I can tell, the ECO just takes orders from the pilot, which would explain why he hasn't had experience being in charge, even if he is experienced as an ECO.


I got the impression that he was entirely beyond any medical help at the point, because I think they would've held out for rescue if they thought that taking him to sickbay would save him.


Hehehe that sums up how I feel about Baltar in general perfectly.


Being stranded on a planet crawling with enemies, doesn't it seem really, REALLY stupid for people to just go wandering off without saying anything. I think he was totally justified in chewing Baltar out, because his wandering around like that is a liability.


He seemed pretty out of it to me, and I got the impression that he would eventually die in pain.


That would be great! And I think JB could pull off playing a teenager too; he sure looks young enough!

Posted by: Cleo256 Jul 25, 2005 @ 3:20 pm

Heh. I had the same idea.

I was underwhelmed by this episode and I don't know why. I think it's because after everything that was happening last week, to have such a straightforward plot was kind of a letdown. Also, a lot of the plots just didn't go anywhere. The President's especially. She gets out of her cell to find someplace more safe, her group wanders around lost for an hour, they never get where they were going and they don't really help dispose of the Cylons in any way. And other than getting Billy and Dualla closer, I don't think anything was accomplished. I didn't learn anything new about the President or anyone else there.

And so it was with the episode in general. The last episode ended with There's Cylons on Board! This one ended with And Now There's Not. It's like they padded this episode in here because they could. Maybe I'll understand better next week, if they explore the long-term implications of what happened here.

Posted by: scratcheyes Jul 25, 2005 @ 3:42 pm

Cleo256

I'll bet that this is a big boost for her "Prophet Laura - Messenger of God" image among the people -- especially when the story gets around, and naturally gets exaggerated. Can't you just hear it from the 'disciples'... "Prophet Laura took a direct shot from a Cylon Centurion but the Gods protected her and the bullet went right through her without harming her! It's a miracle!" She'll have people leaving her offerings and prayer requests (like Neo in Matrix2) in no time at all.

Posted by: Wildog27 Jul 25, 2005 @ 4:14 pm

The who in the what now? I know not of this sequel you mention. Or the one after it. There was only one Matrix movie. There was only one Matrix movie. There was only one Matrix movie....

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 25, 2005 @ 5:22 pm

Thank you! Now this finally makes some sort of sense to me. I can understand him saying he's not fit for it, "maybe I never was," if he's talking about it as a realization of a personality issue, as opposed to putting himself down as unfit for military service. I just couldn't see him feeling like he wasn't capable of it, but I can accept him not feeling suited for it.

Posted by: brownie Jul 25, 2005 @ 7:14 pm

Huh, I just realized that I somehow managed to paste in the completely wrong quote when I first posted this... so none of this made any sense. It was supposed to be a comment someone made regarding the fact that Helo and Starbuck aren't catching on that the Boomer they knew on Galactica was also a Cylon...
There is some logic to that. They don't really know that the Cylon infiltration goes years back - the other cylon's discovered in the fleet were all recent arrivals / travelers. Given what they know, idea that the cylons whipped up a Sharon clone Helo's arrival on Caprica makes more sense than the idea that she never really existed at all.

For that matter, most pilots don't really have command experience either. They can give orders to enlisted folks like the deck crew, but aren't really responsible for anything but themselves and their plane, until getting to a leadership position like Apollo.

I think seeing how poorly Crashdown (and arguably Tigh) handle being suddenly thrown into command highlights how lucky they were to have people like Rosslyn, Adama and Apollo step up last season.

Posted by: Avery Jul 25, 2005 @ 7:41 pm

You know, with all the references to war movies and real-life military actions ("Flash"/"Thunder", etc.), I'm thinking that the ineptitude of Lt. Crashdown might be a nod to the fact that many veterans claim that it was the NCOs they depended on, not the officer corps.

Here we're seeing a relatively inept Lt. being guided by his competent NCO. It might not be just to show what a bonehead Crashdown is (and he is), but another bit to establish verisimilitude.

Posted by: Tulse Jul 25, 2005 @ 8:35 pm

It was bugging me, so I've tried to piece together the poem on the wall of Starbuck's apartment. I can't make out the first line, and some bits are conjecture, but here goes:

????????
with every breath
i breathe
in the day
with every delicious
sip
i drink away the night
stroking my hair
to the beat of his heart
watching a
boy turn
into a
man

(Any corrections would be greatly appreciated.)

Moore says on the podcast that Katee and Tahmoh did the paintings -- I wonder if they also did the poem?

Posted by: Etta Place Jul 25, 2005 @ 9:22 pm

I actually posted my best guess over in the http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3122148&st=135 earlier today.

Posted by: Harrison Fjord Jul 26, 2005 @ 12:36 am

.

It's a bit of both. It's a total cliche. But as the other cliche goes, "How do you think a cliche becomes a cliche?"

Posted by: Bacon Jul 26, 2005 @ 1:25 am

You can partailly see the poem in this hi-res closeup still http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.02/imagepages/image3.html Close enough. Banality alert!

Posted by: firestarter Jul 26, 2005 @ 2:00 am

I thought Boomer was pissy there out of guilt for leaving Helo behind, and no one who took his place would have passed muster. Maybe she was right, though, after how Crashdown has been crashing.

I'm not sure it's about them trying to make sense of it. I think they just don't want to deal with the loss of their friend, with the implication she never existed as a human.

Posted by: Millie Jul 26, 2005 @ 10:22 am

I agree with that. It almost seemed as if Starbuck were trying to convince herself that the Boomer she left on Galactica were the "real" one by constantly pointing out that Helo was with the "clone".

Posted by: Elwood27 Jul 26, 2005 @ 10:40 am

I think it was supposed to be clear to viewers that he was beyond help back in KLG2, but the characters didn't want to admit this to themselves. That sort of damage to the lungs is mostly permanent. If he'd received the best medical care right away, I suppose he might have lived, but he'd never return to duty. He'd be very weak and might need to carry an oxygen tank around for the rest of his life - Colonial medicine seems pretty close to our own, and I doubt they have some kind of magictech cure.

OT, but why is it that on TV shows, it seems like characters are either killed or return to normal quickly, unlike in real wars where lots of people are maimed or disabled for life. I think it would be a daring move if BSG had a character suffer a head injury or something and be permanently disabled (for a moment I thought they were doing this with Dualla but she snapped out of it quickly). I mean, if they want to do a reality-grounded war show, it seems like they would want to deal with the long term costs to people, such as coping with permanent serious injuries.

Speaking of being reality-based, I really like it that the look of this show is so close to our own world, including the Humvee. I toured an actual US Navy submarine the other day, and the look and feel was very similar to the show (although obviously a sub is much more cramped and cluttered). They have phones with cords for example - I hear the phones and instrumentation on Galactica came from a decommissioned Canadian destroyer, but the look isn't really "retro" - the modern ships look almost exactly the same, since sleek modern design aesthetics are not a top priority for the Navy. As for the Humvee, making it look different by duct taping shiny or pointy stuff on it would only serve to distance us from the show. Sci Fi shows design sets and props to imply that there is a whole working world out there and to reinforce that the world they're depicting is different from ours. But that's not what BSG is about, it's about us and the characters are supposed to be as much like us as possible. You may like or dislike this approach, but it wasn't done because it was cheaper, it's a conscious choice to make them dress, work, and live like us.

The only real-world intrusion that bugs me is the accents. They'd better come up with an explanation for Baltar's accent (born on a different colony or something) soon or I'll start getting grumpy about it. He represents Caprica in the Quorum, but all the other Capricans on the show talk like Americans (Kerry Norton's character is obviously from the same place as Baltar). It just doesn't make sense.

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 26, 2005 @ 11:15 am

I just fanwank that he's from a section of Caprica that talks like that. After all, a person from Alabama talks very differently than a person from Boston or Minnesota.

Posted by: Gella Jul 26, 2005 @ 11:36 am

Caprica is a planet, not a country. It's quite possible that there are different languages on it, not just different accents.

Posted by: Raina SaDiablo Jul 26, 2005 @ 11:40 am

I think BSG is better in this regard than most shows, though. Granted, no one's been crippled, but Starbuck and Helo are both limping from way back in S1/mini. And you can watch the progress of Apollo's face slowly healing over several episodes (only to get bashed up again).


Didn't one guy on the Quorum have a different accent?
Well the Galactica was supposed represent Caprica, so I've fanwanked that her crew all happens to be Caprican. And since Colonial One was en route back to Caprica when the attacks happened, most of the people on there must be Caprican as well.


That's a good point, which makes me wonder if either each Colony is much less culturally/linguistically diverse than each of our own large countries, or if the Colonial Military is set up in such a way that everyone on a given ship will be from a specific region of a specific colony.

I always figured that Baltar immigrated to Caprica from another colony as an adult. The Sagitattions seem to have the same accent as the Capricans, but we haven't seen people from any of the other colonies yet, aside from Baltar and the medic.

But it would be nice to see some people from different colonies and hear different accents. Even if that involves getting Canadian extras to do fake accents!

Posted by: ebliss1 Jul 26, 2005 @ 11:44 am

For all the speculation that Jammer or Dualla are cylons, you really need to look at this fact: if they were, why didn't they help the centurions succeed in their mission. Six knew what was happening, and got Baltar off Galactica, so I'm assuming that all cylon sleepers got off as well. After all, just venting Galactica's air would not wipe out humanity - just the crew of Galactica. There's a whole fleet for them to work on and wasting them to "keep up appearances in case the whole mission fails" isn't too plausible.

To my thinking, everyone on Galactica when this was going on just got vindicated and you need to look for people who were off in the fleet or on Kobol when it happened.

On a different note, now that Starbuck is roaming around Caprica, I hope the producers think to keep her in-character and have her stock up on stuff to take back if she can (since she now, with Helo, has a monopoly on stuff that can no longer be had by anyone in the fleet). A cache of rare booze, cigars, cigarettes, or even something like a vine cutting from a rare plant or something that would otherwise go extinct would be of immense value to the people back in the fleet and she's make a tidy profit from it. Dirk Benedict's Starbuck wouldn't have missed such a chance, and neither should Katee Sackoff's.

Posted by: Elwood27 Jul 26, 2005 @ 1:17 pm

Personally I'd like to see her track down a military scrapyard and strip some spare parts for a Viper Mark II. If she could come back in a transport with a couple old planes, even Adama would have to forgive her everything . . . I've wondered why they haven't tried to round up any more supplies since Ragnar, I guess they're afraid the Cylons will be guarding anything they really want. Maybe they think the destruction on Caprica and the other colonies is worse than it is.

I was ecstatic when she went home, because I'd been thinking all spring that that would be cool, but never really expected them to do it. I would have done the same thing.

Posted by: tothemax Jul 26, 2005 @ 2:16 pm

If wasting time to "keep up appearances" isn't plausible, then why didn't the captured Boomer's Cylon programming kick in? Her value to the Cylons was near zero since the humans discovered her identity so what was the point of having her waste away in a cell when she could have done something, however small, to help the Centurions?

I think the Cylons are all about calculating probabilities. While it might have been improbable that their attack on Galactica would fail, they nevertheless considered that possibility and left several humlons undercover. Jammer and Dualla, if they are Cylons, are still valuable assets as no one knows their identity.

Posted by: Gella Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:07 pm

Boomer was in a cell, shackled, under heavy Marine guard. Also, while she may be stronger than your regular human, she is still a fragile creature comparing to Centurions. I don't think there was anything she could've done to assist them. Jammer, on the other hand, if he were a Cylon, could've fired at Apollo at that last moment, enabling the last Centurion to get to Aft Damage Control.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:17 pm

If Dualla and Jammer are truly sleepers, then they might not know they're Cylons until the contingency for which they've been programmed occurs. I feel like that's what went on with Galactica!Boomer in this episode.

She did something heroic enough (taking out her clones on the basestar) that she could take out Adama at close range. The programming kicked in. I was certainly under the impression that, after Sharon shot Adama, she was unaware of what she'd done.

In other words, I don't think we can discount the idea that the people who logically would have been taken out and weren't are Cylons just because they helped destroy the Centurions.

Posted by: tmesis Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:20 pm

By the way, whoever it was upthread who was bothered by the idea of Starbuck's tape having been a Philip Glass performance can sleep easy: this is from an interview I googled out

(http://www.scifidimensions.com/Jul05/bearmccreary.htm)

Shanna Marie's point about the two-weeks-since-I-saw-you Billy and Dee timeline has to be a nitpick, I just went back to look and it really was the night of the party that Kara and Gaius had their night of awkward (which makes so much more sense anyway). Unless the blue dress is her new favourite outfit. And, as SM says, Billy and Dee definitely danced together at the party (I even ffwded through the Apollo In A Blue Towel scene to check that, how dedicated am I?) (okay, other adjectives might also be applicable). Maybe as an afterthought scene (see podcast) it was so long since they'd worked on KLG1 they'd forgotten? Shanna, she so smart.

Something I loved for a reason we've discussed so many times, though no one's mentioned this instance of it, is the length of Lee's recovery time after the marines save him from certain death right back at the start of the first act. No one bounces back on this show.

Posted by: Elwood27 Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:41 pm

Just because they danced together at a big public event doesn't mean they talked. I think they were referring to their last meaningful interaction, which was the date they went on in Tigh Me Up. That might have been two weeks ago, because there is a nine day gap between Hand of God and Colonial Day, by far the longest gap so far in the series. Nothing interesting happened during that time, the fleet hung out in the asteroid field and mined Tyllium - which should have given Dee and Billy some time to see each other, if Dee hadn't been pissed that Billy pumped her for information about Adama. So it's been 13 or 14 days since their last (and first) "date".

Posted by: Limber Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:53 pm

I honestly have to say that, past those godawful junior high dances spent staring at the floor while swaying to "Stairway to Heaven", I have never danced with someone and not talked to them while doing so.

It would just be too bizarre for them to have agreed to dance, but then stayed mute.

Posted by: Kev Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:57 pm

There was the one woman in the mini from Geminon that had a definite accent. I believe it was the same accent used by the Geminese in the original series.

Posted by: Gella Jul 26, 2005 @ 4:59 pm

Well, that may not be the same as him actually calling her and asking her on a date. I mean, if you went on a date with someone in the same work environment, and there was a function during which you danced and talked, but aside from that the person hasn't contacted you... you'd be pretty mad, no?
Or, it could be a simple "time-issue" lapse.

Posted by: Raina SaDiablo Jul 26, 2005 @ 5:20 pm

I also loved the fact that he was quite out of breath, which makes sense given that he spends all his time sitting in a cockpit or (presumably) at a desk.

One thing that's been bugging me: weren't there marines with Lee's group? Iirc, they were still with him at the end, so why'd he take the extra round? It makes more sense to have someone who's more experienced in that type of combat to have an extra round.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 26, 2005 @ 5:47 pm

It's the officer's responsibility. If he knew for a fact that one of those marines could make the shot better than he could, then he should have given it to them. However, if they'd missed, it would still have been his responsibility -- for the three minutes they could all hold their breath in space.

The best officers are often the ones who won't ask anyone to do something they won't do.

Posted by: Limber Jul 26, 2005 @ 5:59 pm

Hell yeah. I'd be angrier, in fact, than if we'd not seen each other at all at the function. I completely agree that Billy's saying he didn't follow up the potential of the date-date; but he and Dee agree that they haven't seen each other "in person" for two weeks, which indicates the dance.

And I do think that Dee would be acting irrationally angry if she were just referring to the end of the date-date, when she technically told him to cool it because he was being all espionage-y. She sounds pissed off that Billy's happy to dance and flirt with her at an event like the VP dance, but isn't making an effort outside of work. Come to think of it, he must generally seem like he's only after her when it benefits his job -- he chats with her in CIC when he's a Presidential tagalong, he asks leading questions about Adama, he doesn't contact her until they're both together at a work function and then he's happy to gravitate to her again... The "wait until you're desperate" line made me think Dee's been stewing over it, and Billy realises he's headed nowhere good fast.

But then he's clearly happy to see her during the Cylonathon, and he certainly goes out of his way to find her in sickbay, so I suppose that alleviates some doubt. I think they're adorable either way, and promise a line of giant green-eyed babies with beautiful complexions and utterly unmanageable hair.

Posted by: greenlady Jul 26, 2005 @ 6:08 pm

I remember, as a kid, being scared of the SOUND the Cylon's red eye made going back and forth, and that fear is back. Running around in the dark. Screaming. Clanking metal footsteps. Good stuff.
After Apollo helped save the ship, Tigh still had to rag on him. There's just no pleasing some people. Since I don't like Tigh, I have this fantasy of him nervously twisting his hands and trying to explain things to Adama:

WHILE YOU WERE OUT:
Lost the fleet
Networked the computers and caught a virus
Boarded by Cylons - many people killed

Oh, yeah, have not yet confirmed if anyone survived crash on Kobol, let alone mount a rescue, don't know where Starbuck is, and have been happily kicking around both the Prez and your son. On the plus side, haven't had a drink. At all. Not even one.

Caprica - Starbuck, steal a ship and get home already. If possible, bring cigarettes, booze, and a change of clothes for the Prez. Don't forget Helo.

Kobol - love Tyrol and Cally. They make the most of every scene, and if they want to get snuggley with each other, I'm fine with that, too. Crashdown telling Tyrol to deal with his guy I took as him finally acknowledging he was in over his head and that Tyrol was really in charge. Crashdown scolding Baltar was funny, and completely in character for them both. Crashdown was exhibiting false bravado, and Baltar was showing signs of self-preservation. (He doesn't like being yelled at, so will say whatever is necessary to stop the yelling.) As for forgetting that he's Vice-President, Baltar only remembers that when the cameras are on him.
Regarding Baby Baltar, I didn't think that Baltar's reactions were difficult to understand. Parenthood hits some people hard. And at this point it's not even a real baby, but a Theoretical Baby of Magic Glowing Light, so maybe that's part of why he's so instantly infatuated with it. His first reaction to it, with his stumbling response to Six, I took as him being surprised at his own reaction, as in, to my shock, I really DO want to hold the baby. Such a bond, usually described as between a woman and her baby, is very strong. Unless he snaps out of it and reverts to his regular self-based behavior, I suspect that much damage will be done "for the child."
I wonder if it will be able to see Six.
I can see Gaeta helping to raise the baby in a My Two Dads situation.

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 26, 2005 @ 6:46 pm

Oh yeah, Tigh has lots of explaining to do.

My question is how are Starbuck and Helo supposed to find the fleet once they leave Caprica. Two weeks ago we had this long drawn out discussion about the intracacies of navigation through space and I just wonder if there is a way for Kara to trace them.

Posted by: TGC-64 Jul 26, 2005 @ 6:56 pm

I expect that Starbuck might jump to Kobol...if she can get the coordinates back from Cap-Boomer. Maybe she has them written down in a pocket somewhere. That the Fleet would move had to have been planned-for, but the Fleet wouldn't be abandoning Kobol soon...and the Arrow only works on Kobol.

The question is .....do any of the surviving Colonial ships have the "legs" and nav-comp to make the jump, or series of jumps, all the way to Kobol?

Posted by: FDM1 Jul 26, 2005 @ 7:00 pm

Isn't Dualla also from Sagittarian? Didn't she say something about that during Bastille Day when she and Billy argued about Zarek? I'll go with those who noted that Caprica is a planet and that here on Earth, even in one country we have very different accents.

Well, if she can get the raider back from Boomer, she should be able to get back to Kobol - that is a fixed location as is Caprica. Plus, it seems like the Cylon FTL systems function better at those calculations. Also, we know that the Cylons know where Kobol is. So, I figure any ship she steals from them would be able to jump to Kobol. If its a Colonial ship, I figure she will have first stolen the location from the Cylons. All this, of course, presumes that she didn't memorize the coordinates for Kobol before she even jumped back to Caprica. Since the fleet will have to return to rescue those on Kobol, it stands to reason that is how Starbuck and Helo will rejoin them.

Posted by: Uskglass Jul 26, 2005 @ 7:32 pm

Hahaa...giant babies, because tall people have giant babies.

This reminded of how glad I am that Billy finally got some screentime. He's such a good actor. Billy's "Now that was a little harsh" was one of the best-delivered lines of the episode. No witty retort, just a few words that snaps us out of melodrama and back into the real world. (my other favorite line was Lee's understated, "They were big enough").

Posted by: Gonigal Jul 26, 2005 @ 8:13 pm

I don't think we'll be hearing from PregoBoomer or the raider she jacked anytime soon. And If I recall, it took extensive modifications & hooking up to Colonial equipment before they were able to adapt that raider's FTL drive so that a human pilot could operate it (Starbuck was definitely punching coordinates into piece of Colonial equipment when she made the jump). So she shouldn't be able to just find a new Cylon ship, scoop out some guts, climb in and start resetting its FTL drive by tickling its brain stem.

Theoretically, then, Starbuck & Helo might seem to be pretty screwed. But given the hints some saw last season that the Cylons might *want* the Colonials to find the Arrow Of Apollo and bring it back to Kobol, I think they just might see to it that Starbuck stumbles upon a way to get back to Kobol with remarkable ease.

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 26, 2005 @ 8:54 pm

I can see Starbuck and Helo making it back to Kobol, but although the crashed ship is there, the fleet left. I just wonder what circumstances would lead them to returning to Kobol where there are lots of Cylons and no proof that anyone survived the crash. Also, as we saw in the last episode, the Galactica was in charge of calculating the changing coordinates of their new destination, so can Starbuck figure out where they jumped to without these coordinates.

My best guess is that the fleet will eventually have to return to Kobol for some reason.

Posted by: brownie Jul 26, 2005 @ 9:02 pm

That would have bugged me too, but last season I decided to justify Starbuck's being the best shot in the fleet with the idea that Galactica was only staffed with the Marine Marching Band at the time of the decommissioning ceremony.

Posted by: AndyCake Jul 26, 2005 @ 9:15 pm

Unfit from sitting at a desk maybe, but not from sitting in a cockpit. Pilots have to be extremely fit to be able to tolerate the G forces involved in flight, launches, landings, pulling hard turns. But still, I agree that I have always been happy with the great continuity this show has, particularly with injuries. Lee had a scratched bruised face after his run-in on the Astral Queen for quite a few episodes afterwards.

Posted by: Moya the Leviathan Jul 26, 2005 @ 11:54 pm

While Valley of Darkness keeps alive the Trek convention of a 'redshirt' from the landing party dying, (no doubt he'd point to various and sundry war movies and literature as the inspiration) I don't think Ron Moore would want to explicitly draw another Trek parallel. Unless maybe as an homage to the newly departed?

Och, Apollo, you're a fine strappin' lad, but dinna argue with your commanding officer or refer to a Mark II as an antiquated piece o' flying junk.

Posted by: FDM1 Jul 27, 2005 @ 12:33 am

I'd beg to differ that Socinus is merely a redshirt. A redshirt is not known on a personal level. We've seen Socinus in action. We've seen him go to prison for Tyrol. We've seen him joking and working with his friends. His loss, while obviously without the impact of one of the major characters, IMO is much more affecting than that of a mere redshirt.

By the way Moya, great nick!

Posted by: WildeChild Jul 27, 2005 @ 12:38 am

I was thinking about this too but I don't believe it vindicates anyone. Cylons don't die. Their concept of death is vastly different than ours. Some or all of their memories (we don't know how or how much) get downloaded into a new body. As we saw when the multiple Sharon's allowed GalBoomer to blow up the basestar, they have a collective objective and that is more important to them than losing the body they inhabit.

What I think is interesting is why the cylons tried this approach now instead of during any earlier encounter with Gallactica. If it is a tactic they used to success in the first war, as suggested by Tigh's comments, they should have tried it right off. However Lee says something about this being a new type of cylon ship they haven't seen before, which I also find interesting that they point out, hence supporting the idea that the cylons haven't tried this before in CWII.

So what is so different now? Is it that the only humans they are concerned about keeping alive are no longer on board? Baltar? Starbuck? ... Cally? =)

IMHO, what I think is so effecting is that there ARE no redshirts on Gallactica. Every human is important even if we know nothing about their character. I think that added level of meaning adds a lot of drama and is distinct to BSG.

Posted by: pootlus Jul 27, 2005 @ 12:48 am

Gonigal:

I disagree. Boomer comes across (to me, anyway) as fairly stubborn. I think she'd find a way off Caprica just to prove a point to a by-then-hopefully-calmed-down Starbuck. Plus, she's supposedly in lurrrve with Helo so I don't see her abandoning him - although getting out of Dodge, with Starbuck about to blow her brains out, was fairly sensible. In any case there needs to be some kind of plot device to get Helo and Starbuck off Caprica and back with the fleet. I wonder how many non-Centurion Cylons are currently on Caprica? ISTR that there's at least one LSL still kicking around down there, and I can't remember if all the Sixes and Boomers have been killed.

Still, loving the season so far. And can't wait to see how all the multitudunous plot threads progress.

Posted by: Elwood27 Jul 27, 2005 @ 1:02 am

Redshirts IIRC were generally actors you'd never seen before, who get maybe a few lines and then bite it. Socinus has actually been on the show since the mini, and is played by one of the actors who went through boot camp with all the military characters before it was filmed. He took the fall for Tyrol back in 1.7 and was busted down in rank and thrown in the brig, which is why we haven't seen him since. Unfortunately, the scene where he got out of jail was cut for time, and he looks a lot like Jammer, who has also appeared in several previous episodes. As a result, people don't recognizing him and his death doesn't affect people the way Moore wanted it to. I get the feeling they want to develop these secondary characters more, but can't find the time and have to keep cutting their scenes.

Posted by: firestarter Jul 27, 2005 @ 7:17 am

On the podcast, did Ron Moore say anything about Adama's wife being named Anne? It seemed pretty clear Caroline was the mother of both Lee and Zack based on Zach's funeral scene. Was Anne supposed to be Adama's first wife? Or did they just forget they had named her Caroline already?

Posted by: tmesis Jul 27, 2005 @ 9:25 am

Nope, he said nothing about that. It is indeed a mystery.

Posted by: cutecouple Jul 27, 2005 @ 10:24 am

On the small upside, they now have more Cylon tech to examine. On the downside, almost everyone who's critically examined Cylon tech before is off the ship.

Posted by: Elwood27 Jul 27, 2005 @ 10:42 am

I think this belongs in the "Scattered" forum but if I reply there I'll be yelled at for double posting. If the flashbacks happened about 20 years ago, that would make Apollo roughly ten years old at the time. Tigh calls Anne the "new wife." So Caroline was Lee's mother, she and the Old Man split up, and Anne was the second wife. Lee appears to have lived with his mother at the time, as Adama was generally off in space (literally, I mean).

Posted by: hacktastic Jul 27, 2005 @ 12:12 pm

I liked that scene. I think Cali calling the Tyrol "motherfraker" was meant to break tension of the audience and the characters. "Motherfraker" sounds ridiculous to us and, possibly, coming out of Cali, it sounded ridiculous to Tyrol in their cultural context, not to mention they were so stressed out that they were probably getting loopy enough to start giggling over just about anything. Anyone who has been under an extended amount of high stress can probably relate. Breaking the bubble of tension feels soooooo good, even if that bubble starts swelling up again right after you pop it. I think the writers (purposefully or inadvertently) did a good job of imparting that pop to us.

As for Tyrol putting Socinus out of his misery, while I found the scene moving and teared up, the little black kernel of spite in my heart was screaming "SO CLICHE! How many times has this scene been done?!?!? 'Black Hawk Down,' 'Saving Private Ryan' aaaahhh!!!"

Posted by: Raina SaDiablo Jul 27, 2005 @ 1:55 pm

Good interpretation!


I was always under the impression that that involves strength more than cardiovascular fitness. But I've never driven anything in my life, so I could be totally wrong.

Posted by: wrxfanatic Jul 27, 2005 @ 2:46 pm

The last two episodes were ok, but it feels like Battlestar Lite without EJO. The last two episodes are exciting and all, but his personality is a big part of the context of the show.

Posted by: scair Jul 27, 2005 @ 3:30 pm

You know, I heard that Edward James Olmos said that the second season was even better than the first. At the time, I had trouble taking that seriously, but I am in the process of rethinking that.

I think Six is leading Baltar down the primose path and he has finally turned the corner to where he takes everything she says as gospel. No doubt there were atrocities of some kind in the histories of Kobol and Caprica, but Six is definitely putting her own spin on them.


There's the possibility of combining these two. What are the chances that Baltar will claim Adama is a Cylon now that he sees him as a threat?


Well, I have to say that Tigh has acquitted himself much better so far than I would have expected on the military side. On the other hand, once it comes to dealing with the civilian population, I don't think he'll do very well. Tigh doesn't really seem to be capable of innovative or lateral thinking. He's loyal to Adama to a fault and I think he's terrified of stepping outside of the lines. And respectful of his subordinates? Not really. Yes, Starbuck is an insubordinate hotshot. But he made every confrontation between them totally personal. Not to mention his unnecessary editorializing over Lee's decision. I really don't think that right after he saved everyone on the Galactica and over his dad's inert body is the best time to be saying 'you're not fit to wear the uniform.'


Heh. I loved this part!

Posted by: Elwood27 Jul 27, 2005 @ 4:01 pm

Lee's not out of shape, he goes jogging with Kara all the time. He's panting because having your subordinates ripped open by killer robots from outer space right in front of you tends to trigger a fight or flight response. His pupils are probably dialated, too.

Posted by: EllieJ Jul 27, 2005 @ 4:13 pm

In the podcast, Ron Moore talked about cutting scenes where Tigh didn't want to put Apollo in charge of going after the Cylons because of the mutiny thing and instead wanted to put a less experienced person in charge. I know that since they were cut they're not gospel, but I think it's interesting that they were written in the first place.

Tigh will definitely have problems with the civilian population. He's shown that he has little respect for them in the past and he has a hard time hiding that fact.

Posted by: firestarter Jul 28, 2005 @ 1:38 am

Sorry, I asked my question about Anne in the wrong thread.

Posted by: YeNguyen Jul 28, 2005 @ 2:26 am

As Season 2 is progressing, I'm really growing to like the character of Col. Tigh a lot more. Michael Hogan does a good job portraying him, and his flaws are some of the most interesting to follow. He also plays alongside all of the other actors very well. The conflicts between him and Apollo and also with President Roslin are just waiting to become the next big political drama episode of the series.

Posted by: ebliss1 Jul 28, 2005 @ 11:13 am

Wildechild, I was not trying to suggest that the Galactica people were vindicated because the cylons wouldn't want to sacrifice their lives, I'm saying that I feel they're vindicated because if there were any cylon agents on Galactica, they would have helped the centurians succeed. If Dualla were a cylon, she'd have been perfectly placed to shoot the defenders in the back and ensure the mission's success. Since she didn't, I can't see how they could plausibly explain her inaction.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by: Fabrisse Jul 28, 2005 @ 12:20 pm

The idea of a sleeper agent is that they only go into effect if a particular set of circumstances comes about. If HumLons can be programmed, then that's probably an even greater assurance that "If ... Else...Endif" will come into play. That's why I think it's perfectly possible for Dualla to be a Cylon without knowing it and without having actively helped the centurions (Jammer, too).

If the Centurions get through, then Dualla's or Jammer's programming need never come into play. If they don't get through, then at an unspecified future time, their sleeper programming could be useful to the Cylon cause.

Heck, it's possible the Centurion was programmed to explode if he got too close to his goal (in other words, Apollo missed), because the underlying plan was to thin the ranks and sow panic. If the Cylons have a plan given them by their god, then it may have to come to fruition in a specific way, at a specific time, in a specific place in order to break the cycle or begin it for the Cylons rather than the humans.

Posted by: Limber Jul 28, 2005 @ 2:35 pm

It struck me as odd that Jammer didn't actually identify himself until one of the pilots called his name, and then he suddenly babbled "Yeah, it's Jammer! Jammer!" My Cylon-sense was tingling, but then he promptly started in with the knuckledragging spiel, so I guess he's not a Cylon.

I hope that they don't reveal Cylons too quickly. That would be a shame. And I'm wondering if Baltar's a Cylon, because that would be a deeply amusing twist for me -- he's actually programmed to have this hallucination of Six, and is just totally clueless and deeply embedded.

Posted by: Irish Wolf Jul 28, 2005 @ 9:36 pm

"Genuine People Personalities. It's a dreadful idea. I'm a Personality Prototype. Can you tell? Hey, I'm not getting you down at all, am I? I'd hate to think I was getting you down..."